The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: gianmarko on January 27, 2013, 04:51:05 PM
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good evening everybody
a colleague managed to snatch the only czechmate in the local shop and asked me to help him load some rounds
any suggestion on what powder to use and doses? will do a push test as soon as the guy shows up with the 'mate.
really mean looking gun, will need some breaking in. he bought it for around 5k dollars, 2 extra barrels included.
im envious.
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I've not personally done it. However, there is a lot of information on the Enos forum.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=72
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Remember that you are going to be dealing with a short chamber. Slow increases of HS-6 or Silhouette are most likely going to be the recipe. A Chronograph is going to be required.
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Speaking as a mod, I'd rather have you go to see Mr Enos than posting 9 Major loads on this site. We have too many novice reloaders on this site who don't know the difference between Major and Minor PF. The fear of a mixup is very real.
If you need help with your OAL then we'd certainly be very happy to help.
Please don't take this as a slight or an inconvenience. You'll get much more help and higher quality help with a Major load on the Enos site. The best we could is confuse everyone.
All the best. ;)
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Can you get SP2 in your area? A Czechmate shooter from the BE forum shared some fantastic load using SP2 and Montana Gold 124 grn CMJs.
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Speaking as a mod, I'd rather have you go to see Mr Enos than posting 9 Major loads on this site. We have too many novice reloaders on this site who don't know the difference between Major and Minor PF. The fear of a mixup is very real.
If you need help with your OAL then we'd certainly be very happy to help.
Please don't take this as a slight or an inconvenience. You'll get much more help and higher quality help with a Major load on the Enos site. The best we could is confuse everyone.
All the best. ;)
I'm offended. ;D
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I do appreciate your protection. :-X
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I do appreciate your protection. :-X
There's a joke in here that I KNOW Wobbly would
appreciate...but I'm not going there!!!
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ok no prob, i see your point and agree that messing with major loads can be dangerous.
will have a look at enos forum.
i guess we will use Vit powders, which are easy to source here and which offer a lot of knowledge. some of the powders availabe here are not so popular and recipes are hard to get.
first thing we will check is usable OAL. luckily i finally sourced bullets that allow max SAAMI OAL even in the CZ.
my colleague also got a .338 lapua magnum rifle he intend to use for long range, so we will get all the equipment to reload these rounds (and .308 for the rem 700 im going to get soon)
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I do appreciate your protection. :-X
There's a joke in here that I KNOW Wobbly would
appreciate...but I'm not going there!!!
Beyond even that, some of these guns are black and have a pistol grip. Everyone agrees that makes them more dangerous.
;D
Why don't you ask who has knowledge of Major PF loads with Vit and then communicate by PM. There can't be more than 1 or 2 people on the entire forum. Then maybe I'm all wet, this is a true area of general interest to the forum, and I just need to shut up.
I can go either way.
:P
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good evening everybody
a colleague managed to snatch the only czechmate in the local shop and asked me to help him load some rounds
any suggestion on what powder to use and doses? will do a push test as soon as the guy shows up with the 'mate.
really mean looking gun, will need some breaking in. he bought it for around 5k dollars, 2 extra barrels included.
im envious.
Sorry, I gotta ask... $5k, is this for real???? I saw one on Gunbroker brand new today for $2900 and I thought that was awfully high.
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good evening everybody
a colleague managed to snatch the only czechmate in the local shop and asked me to help him load some rounds
any suggestion on what powder to use and doses? will do a push test as soon as the guy shows up with the 'mate.
really mean looking gun, will need some breaking in. he bought it for around 5k dollars, 2 extra barrels included.
im envious.
Sorry, I gotta ask... $5k, is this for real???? I saw one on Gunbroker brand new today for $2900 and I thought that was awfully high.
He isn't in this country. Pricing is very different there.
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Retail at CZC is $2995 fully equipped and mostly ready to run. That is not an extremely high price for a good quality open gun, C-Mor and regular sights, 4 mags, two bbls , and misc spare parts.
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we are in europe, and some prices here would make your skin cringe and your b%%%s retire in the abdomen for good
i paid well over 70 bucks for a pound of vectan powder. Vit N320 comes at a mere 65 bucks per pound
im looking at prices in a locan gun shop. they are offering the P226 at 1400 dollars instead of 2300
a glock 17 costs 950 dollars
a beretta 92fs retails around 1000 to 1500
colt ar15, fixed stock, no rails, no nothing, 2500 to 3000 dollars
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for those who are interested, we ran some tests with N350 and 3N37 in the czechmate
against all odds, we got some really good results with the N350.
Geco cases, CCI primers, and Berry's copper plated round nose 124 grs, OAL 29.5 mm. charge slightly compressed, clocked around 1350 fps with a 30 fps difference between shots. will PM the powder dose to those interested.
the 3N37 gave also some good results but powder dose necessary to reach major factor was higher, and speed deviations larger.
primers slightly cratered and flattened but not worse than my minor reloads with N320
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I'm surprised you could load that long in the CM, no rounds binding in the mag?
Thank you for the info.
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1.161" will run and within SAAMI stds.
If those were 124 HBR-TP, it likely could be loaded shorter if preferred. The standard Berry's124RN is pushing the envelope a little at that speed.
Wish I had a gun to join in on the fun. (Gun and Fun DO rhyme. ;D)
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no problem at all. according to push test we could load even longer, but of course we must stay within standards
1SOW, what do you mean about the Berry RN?
I'm surprised you could load that long in the CM, no rounds binding in the mag?
Thank you for the info.
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A little off topic.
I was looking around on that BrianEnos website and found a post where some guy (philg80) said he got over 1500 fps with a 115 grain bullet in 9mm major. I am guessing that 9mm major uses a standard 9x19 Luger brass case.
here is his load:
9 Major
8.4 grs HS6 or 8.0 grs Ramshot Silhouette
115 gr MG HP
1.1 OAL
Win SP Primer
Both shot around 1500 FPS
I plugged this data into Quickloads and it showed a pressure of over 75,000 psi. That is more than twice the SAAMI specs.
Do people actually shoot 2x max pressure loads out of their CZ pistols?
post #12 here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114549
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Do people actually shoot 2x max
Yes, but 1.1" OAL and 8.4 grains of HS6 sounds like a VERY compressed load... There was a time when Major power factor for USPSA was 175 (weight of the bullet in grains divided by velocity in feet per second, divided by 1000) and people did some crazy stuff with 9Major, but today the 165PF is much safer.
Some people do build 9Major guns from standard service pistols like the CZ75 and the Glocks, but they tend to wear out faster than those designed to handle the Major PF of USPSA like the Tactical Sport and the Czechmate. I'm making generalizations and yes, I have shot a 124 grain bullet at 1350 feet per second out of a $300 small frame Tanfoglio, but I would expect a cracked frame, barrel or slide within a few thousand rounds if I made a habit of it.
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no problem at all. according to push test we could load even longer, but of course we must stay within standards
1SOW, what do you mean about the Berry RN?
I'm surprised you could load that long in the CM, no rounds binding in the mag?
Thank you for the info.
Berry's sells a standard 124gr RN plated bullet, rated up to 1200 feet/second. They also sell the 124gr Hollow Base Round nose -Thick Plated bullet (HBRN-TP) that is rated up to 1450 feet/second
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im resuscitating this thread as i got delivery of a czechmate. tested it on saturday during a club competition.
i reloaded a few rounds using 6.8 grains of a locally produced powder that STI owners use a lot for major reloads.
tested the loads (6.8 grs behind LOS 124 grs copper plated RN bullets magtech primers and assorted cases) and clocked around 1380fps
however, with this loads the compensator works very little, if at all. the barrel flip is the same i get in my stock shadow. i honestly expected more from this expensive gun. a friend STI owner tested it and advised me to get rid of the CM ASAP...
any suggestions? perhaps i should use different powders, producing more gases? i tested my friend STI, using 7.5 grains of the same powder and same bullet, and there was NO flip.
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Did you try the same loads that worked in the STI in your Czechmate?
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yes, slighly decreased to account for the shorter OAL. load in the STI is around 7.5 grains, i loaded 6.9
Did you try the same loads that worked in the STI in your Czechmate?
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yes, slighly decreased to account for the shorter OAL. load in the STI is around 7.5 grains, i loaded 6.9
You just answered your question. The STI guys are getting more gas volume, which in turn is making their comps more effective. You can't run the same powder they do because you won't build the same gas volume for the pressure built.
If you can find Hodgdon HS-6 or Ramshot Silhouette, you will be much better served. Those two are noted powders in the U.S. for short loaded 9mm major loads.
I'd also suggest switching to 115 grain bullets, as the shorter bullet will have more powder space, which leaves more room for powder. More powder equals more gas.
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yes, slighly decreased to account for the shorter OAL. load in the STI is around 7.5 grains, i loaded 6.9
Did you try the same loads that worked in the STI in your Czechmate?
How much shorter is the load? You reduced the charge 8%.
James knows more than I about this, but since you're overseas and might not have access to those powders you might need to get a bit more creative with what's available.
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oal was 28.8 mm
i first tested on a chrono and saw around 1380 fps, same value my STI friends sees using 7.5 on a 30 mm OAL
yes, slighly decreased to account for the shorter OAL. load in the STI is around 7.5 grains, i loaded 6.9
Did you try the same loads that worked in the STI in your Czechmate?
How much shorter is the load? You reduced the charge 8%.
James knows more than I about this, but since you're overseas and might not have access to those powders you might need to get a bit more creative with what's available.
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Different powder/load likely. Comp. is the driver , not speed.
A friend shoots 9mm major with different pistols, Brazos, STI and another. He shoots 124grMG, Zero and some other bullets. For HIS comp and pistols, Silhuoette generates enough gas to keep the red-dot steady when shooting. I know some who use HS-6 and n350.
Check on benos and look for "cocobolo" (and some others) and 9 major loads. The comp. issues and powders used are discussed often.
When I win the lottery, I WANT to shoot 9 major. Old guys especially, like good red-dots. 8)
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oal was 28.8 mm
i first tested on a chrono and saw around 1380 fps, same value my STI friends sees using 7.5 on a 30 mm OAL
You are seeing the same speed because they are generating the same pressure. What they are NOT generating is the same gas volume. What makes a comp work is the gas created from the burning cartridge hitting the baffles in the compensator and forcing the gun forward (and downward, typically). 6.9 grains of powder does not generate as much gas as 7.5 grains do. You need more gas.
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i have been advised to use Vectan SP2, will source some and test it. will also test the N350, a colleague uses it.
thanks for all the suggestions. i am a total newbie in the field of major loads and compensators.
"Comp. is the driver , not speed."
im taking it easy PFwise, dont want to blow up a brand new, expensive gun....
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I can go to 29.6mm in my CZ barrel with a 135 grain round nose. Do you reload?
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my colleague Czechmate will allow, with same bullets, 29.9 mm OAL. so looks like my barrel has shorter freebore. will measure the second barrell, im waiting for the papers to collect it.
else, ill send the barrels to a gunsmith and get the freebore extended a little. this short OAL is a PITA for major loads.
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I don't know if you have access to Winchester auto comp but everyone around here uses it for their open guns 7.0 - 7.2 gr will but you around 170 pf. this powder was made for open guns with compensators hence the name oh and by the way don't touch that chamber its perfect right now it is the same overall length as the shadow I can load for both guns on the same machine adjusting only the amount of powder thrown
Sent from my SGH-I757M using Tapatalk
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get the freebore extended a little. this short OAL is a PITA for major loads.
A friend with an open class 9mm pistol loads Silhuoette powder at an oal with 124gr RN or 124 JHP that will fit (and shoot) in his stock Shadow and run 170+ PF in his open gun.
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115gr bullets have a pretty narrow profile and can load fairly long in my CZ however when I loaded some at 1.180" I had problems with the mags.
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Being in Europe, I forget exactly where, gianmarko doesn't have access to the same components we do.
I can understand his frustration, and why he might want to modify his chamber.
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Making the required PF is not too hard to do, but getting enough 'gas' to make your compensator work is the issue. Powder type makes a difference.
A shooter friend has been answering all my dumb questions about open class loads, just in case I hit the lottery and can buy the pistol and other equipment needed. ::)