The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Discussion => Topic started by: manhairetis on March 10, 2013, 11:35:38 AM
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Hello everybody!!!
I went to the range this morning, having not slept very well and a bit preoccupied by some everyday matters.
I picked a firing bench, loaded two magazines and started shooting at a stationary target.
At some point the ammo in the second magazine was used up (or so I thought), I removed it, put the gun down pointing downrange and started reloading the magazine I had emptied first.
Only after having loaded 3-4 rounds, I noticed one in the other magazine!!! I then saw the pistol, slide forward and in SA mode. I picked it up very carefully, pointed at the target, pulled the trigger and, of course, it fired!!!
Several hours later, I cannot still understand what made me think that I had shot the whole magazine.
Please note that I am a very cautious person, professionally familiar with safety matters.
I felt that I should share this experience with you, because everybody can have such a "blank" in his situational awareness at some point in time.
In such cases, only compliance to all safety rules can avert accidents, by disrupting the error chain (in this case, leaving the gun on the bench pointing at a safe direction).
I would greatly appreciate your feedback.
Thank you very much and stay safe!!!
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First and foremost, happy to know that you and all there were safe.
As commented in my other threads, I am relatively new to handguns, and establishing a set of safe habits has been at the forefront of my mind. I think your story makes the point of the need to have safe habits as an imperative. If it were not for your habit of placing the gun on the bench pointing downrange could have been the difference between a unnerving incident and a disaster. IMHO, its a compliment to you that you have done that.
As I was choosing where I would shoot, there are two ranges that were close, and inexpensive enough to merit consideration for me in the short term. Both offered "ala carte" plans ($20/visit). One requires users to sign a form that includes their safety procedures, and then you can shoot away. The other (the one I chose) requires anyone using the range to attend a 1 hour safety class, and has implemented a pretty rigorous range safety officer program (There were three on the line monitoring 6 active lanes). I am sure to many the class was redundant, and perhaps even a touch annoying as it covered mostly common sense items, including incidentally a policy of firearms ONLY being out on the firing line, and ALWAYS laying on the bench pointed downrange. Violation of the safety codes results in you losing your privileges for the day, and if you do it twice, they will yank your membership. Draconian? Maybe. But for me, it provided an increased sense of comfort on the line that everyone should be practicing safe habits. In today's world where there are LOTS of new gun owners (including me), I like erring on the side of safety.
I dont believe that safe habits are necessarily natural. It takes discipline, and repetition to ingrain them into your routine.
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Thank you for your honesty and for sharing your educational experience. I never trust anyone at the range and because of that carry hot n ready at all times there and stay very vigilant. I actually prefer to shoot alone. There are too many Pennsylvania residents who think they know things about firearms... when they really dont . Frankly it is scary and disturbing. No wonder the left is worried about gun owners.
But the safety story and advice is openly and well received. Thank you for the reminder!
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In such cases, only compliance to all safety rules can avert accidents, by disrupting the error chain (in this case, leaving the gun on the bench pointing at a safe direction).
I would greatly appreciate your feedback.
Manhairetis, thanks for your honest post of a safety incident. As you've said, only by following the fundamentals that we've practiced over and over at the range prevented a negative outcome during your "blank" moment.
I'll share something that I am having difficulty with after coming from a different platform (i.e., 1911 and PX4). When I put my P-01 in the range bag at the end of the day, I've twice now forgotten to decock. Since that trigger pull on the decock is essentially our safety, I've been finding I need to concentrate a little bit more when I'm done for the day to make sure I properly put away the pistol.
To me, these incidents or "blank" moments can be diminished by always practicing the fundamentals: fundamentals unique to your pistol, and the fundamentals of the safety at the range.
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Consider yourself lucky that you kept it pointing down range. When I was going threw tactical training there was 2 clowns. One would dray the weapon and sweep it instead of pulling back and pointing down range. She always found herself on the right most lane. Another guy was going to holster his weapon, not sure what he was doing at the time but it went off hitting the floor. Focus. Your brain is your first, and best safety. If that's off, you may have problems. Habit is your next safety. I was trained to account for every last round. I load 16 rounds, I better send 16 down range, and there better be 16 holes in the target.
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MileHighJC,
Thank you for your detailed comment. My range stands somewhere between the ones you described in terms of safety. There is no structured safety course before starting, but one of the attendants briefs every new shooter before he actually starts using the range, and keeps a cautious eye on him afterwords. Moreover, the safety rules are printed on each shooting bench - of course it is always easy to ignore anything after having seen it many times.
It is true that you can never be "too safe".
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kai,
counting the rounds is a valuable piece of information, I will adopt it.
This is why this forum is so great.
Thank you very much.
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Thank you all very much for being so supportive and informative.
Speaking about these things reduces guilt, helps others avoid the same mistake and makes it easier for them to speak about their own negative experiences.
Many thanks again.
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kai,
counting the rounds is a valuable piece of information, I will adopt it.
This is why this forum is so great.
Thank you very much.
I generally count the rounds fired as well, when I am shooting at a bullseye-type target. However, I find that I am not always correct in my count. Also, sometimes I am practicing drawing and shooting varying strings of rounds, so counting isn't practical. In addition to counting, though, you should always verify the condition of the firearm before stepping away from the firing line and placing the firearm on a bench. Drop magazine, slide locked open, visually inspect chamber. I never lay a firearm on the bench with the slide closed, unless I have verified it, and it is going immediately into its container.
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Wow, these accounts and practices are excellent information for newbies such as myself. A lot is common sense I guess but it just goes to show diligence to safety is the primary goal in enjoying a day at the range and keeping a possible tragic accident from occurring. Kudos for your concise and honest account.
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Personally, I don't trust my ability to keep up with my shot count; especially when practicing double tap, etc. I will only place the gun on the bench pointed down range once I have removed the magazine and locked the slide open. Only way I can be sure it is empty.
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So the slide was actually not locked back on an empty chamber? That's interesting. I have not had that one yet but I have once realized that I had a round left in the chamber in my Kel Tec SU16B. I had removed the mag thinking it had locked back on empty racked the handle and pa-pling out came one last round.
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I believe this thread is developing into something pretty valuable for those of us who are relatively new to handguns - some good habits that I expect I will be adopting:
- Pretty obvious, but VERY important - always have the muzzle pointed down range (a version of the NRA never let the muzzle point at something you are not willing to destroy)
- One that my instructor was after me for : When picking up the gun, keep my trigger finger high on the slide (fully above the trigger guard) until I am ready to fire. I had already developed a bad habit of having my trigger finger too close to the trigger guard - clearly outside of the guard, but draped across it. She made a valid argument that its just too easy to slip it into the guard if startled (not that I would EVER be startled on a shooting range by the 44 mag going off on the next lane ;) ).
- Counting rounds fired vs what was loaded. I have been counting, and have already had one situation where my counts didn't match. In my case, I was one short (I miscounted going into the mag, and I wound up not loading the full 14). No harm, but it made me stop to think when I thought I still had one to go and the slide was locked back.
- Never lay the gun on the bench without the slide locked back. I like this, and am not currently doing it. It makes it easy to see that the chamber is empty. Not a big deal 99% of the time, but that ONE time when I stop to talk with someone, think it is empty, and its not is all it would take.
- Decock after racking the slide EVERY time. I started with this as my plan but got away from it because I was struggling with DA accuracy, and started to get lazy. I started racking the slide, getting on target right away and firing away in SA. Even if I plan on firing a full mag in SA, I think it would be better to have the habit of decocking, then drawing back the hammer after getting on target if I want to fire a full mag in SA.
- One thing I have not figured out (and thankfully have not experienced) is how to react if I observe someone else at the range "cowboying" it. Safety being my #1 concern, and being a pretty direct person my natural response is to say something immediately. But being the new guy on the range, Im not sure how well that might go, especially as I know I am still in the process of building my habits (read that I suspect Im not perfect myself). With the RSO's at the range I just joined, I have a reasonable expectation that I would not HAVE to get involved in a discussion, but Im pretty sure this will not be the only place I ever shoot. I have heard some stories about the first range I mentioned... while I dont think its common, apparently occasionally there are people who are not practicing the same level of safety procedures that at least I would want to see.
I imagine that these are ALL natural things to the experienced folks around here, but I know Im certainly interested in hearing others thoughts about best practices.
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My range requires that every gun be pointed down range at all times and that any gun laid down have the slide locked back or bolt open and a chamber flag inserted. The flag guarantees that there is not a round in the chamber and prevents the slide or bolt from being released.
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My range requires that every gun be pointed down range at all times and that any gun laid down have the slide locked back or bolt open and a chamber flag inserted. The flag guarantees that there is not a round in the chamber and prevents the slide or bolt from being released.
+1 - Sounds just link our range also
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Mishandling a weapon makes my blood boil. I was at Gander Mountain looking at guns. They guy took the gun out, removed the trigger lock, pulled the mag and opened the slide. Then stood there talking to me pulling the trigger pointing it all around. He then set it on the counter with the barrel pointing right at me. I reached forward and turned the gun away from me, and anyone else. I then said I'm very anal about gun safety and I get very uncomfortable when I see them handled in a unsafe manor. He just didn't seem to get it. ::) One mistake, and you, or someone else is dead. I'm not willing to live knowing my mistake cost someone else their life. It's not a game. Safe habits are the key. Impartial observation helps. Even setting up a camera to video your time on the range, then review it at home. You may be surprised what you will see. ::)
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Mishandling a weapon makes my blood boil. I was at Gander Mountain looking at guns. They guy took the gun out, removed the trigger lock, pulled the mag and opened the slide. Then stood there talking to me pulling the trigger pointing it all around. He then set it on the counter with the barrel pointing right at me. I reached forward and turned the gun away from me, and anyone else. I then said I'm very anal about gun safety and I get very uncomfortable when I see them handled in a unsafe manor. He just didn't seem to get it. ::) One mistake, and you, or someone else is dead. I'm not willing to live knowing my mistake cost someone else their life. It's not a game. Safe habits are the key. Impartial observation helps. Even setting up a camera to video your time on the range, then review it at home. You may be surprised what you will see. ::)
I agree with you - bad handling makes me boil. That's one reason I tend to avoid gun shows. For the most part, I find myself very uncomfortable inside a gun show with all the bad handling etc. that goes on by not only the clowns and wannabees, but experienced folks who SHOULD know better but seem to forget basic gun handling in that forum. It's actually frightening in my opinion - like being at a ski resort in the base area with too many non-experienced skiers trying to shoulder their skis and swinging them around haphazardly and almost hitting you in the head - I felt safer playing hockey! BUT these are not skis and are therefore much, much more serious - not a game like you said.
In gun stores or at gun counters in stores like Cabelas or Gander I've gotten a clerk or two upset when they've pulled out a gun, checked it and then handed it to me closed and then I checked it again myself. One even snottily said "I've checked it, don't you trust me or do you think I'm too dumb to determine it's unloaded?!" Well, as a matter of fact, no I wouldn't have thought your were dumb UNTIL you said that and NO, I don't trust you. I'll check it myself thank you! This was at a respectable gun store with a guy who probably worked there 20 years. Familiarity breeds a certain arrogance and with that a certain over confidence that leads to simple mistakes. It's like the stories you hear about some experienced electrician who dies of electrocution after they make a rookie mistake any apprentice would avoid. Again, not a game and a simple "oops, sorry, my bad" won't cover that errant bullet that just hit someone - you can't take that back!
Another time I'll share some honesty about my own screw up - hole in the ceiling - nobody hurt, no cops, no damage that couldn't be fixed - poor dog scared but I will say as a gun owner/shooter - BEST thing that could have happened (I mean in the way that it happened - nobody hurt, no legal issues and scared the holy crap out of myself) and it was a one and only time mistake. Drove the safety point home to me forever. Mentioned it to an old timer/cop I shot with at the time and he agreed that "nobody hurt and a good thing - slaps you the ____ out of being complacent!" Thanks to the topic starter manheiritis for the honesty and starting a good and important thread! Cheers. D.
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Even if I see you open and check the gun, I'm still going to open it and check it again once I have it in my hands. When it comes to guns, I only trust me. Complacency will get you killed sooner or later. My instructor was very hard. I got chewed out because I was one hole short on my target, and the other lane had one to many holes. We were all shooting at the same time, not in the box, but in the open lanes. The guy to my left fired and the casing hit me in the head just as I pulled the trigger. A few rounds later another casing flew down the back of my shirt and dropped down burning me all the way down. All I heard was him yelling keep it down range. I managed to drop the mag, clear the round and lock the slide and finally placing the gun on the floor.
In class it was always a game to try to get another students firearm. And I was the biggest prize. I hold multiple black belts. One guy got his hand on it, I locked his hand in place, spun around, put him on the floor and sat on him. That was the second last attempt. The last was the instructor, he failed as well. 8) He was/is a great instructor. I treat every gun as if it's loaded.
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Good discussion with good points made about safety. Thanks "manhairetis" for man-ing up to an initial slip up with safety but catching it before it went any further. Regardless of range experience (I've done many as a former Drill, etc. in the Army), we firearms owners and users can always use a refresher in safety protocols. This is like doing an After-Action-Review to analyze what happened (negative and positive) and what can be done to make us do better in the future.
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So the slide was actually not locked back on an empty chamber? That's interesting. I have not had that one yet but I have once realized that I had a round left in the chamber in my Kel Tec SU16B. I had removed the mag thinking it had locked back on empty racked the handle and pa-pling out came one last round.
There was nothing wrong with the gun, it worked as it should. The... malfunction was all in my brain, due to temporary loss of SA (situational awareness) as I described earlier.
This is what makes these incidents so dangerous.
Thank you.
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ExCDNGuy,
Thank you for your kind words.
I absolutely agree with your writings, and let me add a nice description of what "experience" means, as I read it some years ago:
"Experience means being able to repeat the same mistake with ever rising confidence".
Best regards,
M.
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Good discussion with good points made about safety. Thanks "manhairetis" for man-ing up to an initial slip up with safety but catching it before it went any further.
Thank you for your polite comment.
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I think the OP's experience relates a good point - overlapping "safe" policies. Where one safety policy fails, there's another to cover for it. In this case, it was having the gun pointed down range. Good work! That's how it's supposed to be.
The new range in town is great. It's well lit, they actually have a range master (the old place doesn't), and they make you watch a safety vid before you shoot there. BUT there was a disturbing situation the other day. The guy in the next lane had an AR, and when he was done shooting between mags, he would place the rifle on the bench at a diagonal so that the barrel was pointing at the side wall rather than at the trap downrange.
As I was shooting, I could see the barrel of his rifle peeking over into my lane past the partition. . The muzzle wasn't pointed at me, but the position of the rifle put me in front of the perpendicular of his muzzle. In other words, I could actually see into his barrel. Don't think range safety is supposed to work that way. Had the rifle been jarred somehow, it might've pointed right at me. It was probably unloaded, but it's still a problem.
I'll mention it to the owners the next time I'm in. I think the problem is that the range doesn't yet have a place for rifle shooters to put their guns so that they stay securely pointed down range. He probably put the thing at a diagonal because putting it on the bench so it was pointed downrange means the stock and barrel are sticking out over the edge of the bench. I think simple rifle racks mounted on the partitions should do the trick.
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Manhairetis, if you need any of the chamber safety flags, the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) sells them for $4.99 a dozen. I have some thrown in every range bag I have and if I see someone not using one at my range I give them one and show them how to use them. Cheap investment if it prevents an accident.
Here is the link to the CMP e-store, or most LGC's have them.
http://estore.thecmp.org/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=product&ID=244&item=&sfv=&cat=EQA&desc=&udc=&mct=&vndr=&ba=&pmin=&pmax=¬e1=¬e2=¬e3=¬e4=¬e5=&max=
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Duckie,
You were very helpful.
Thank you!!!
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this thread is a good reminder about multiple overlapping safety rules. I'm not too anal about every little safety ritual (heck, I do dryfire practice in my backyard), but if the gun is not in my hand and pointed downrange, it is either decocked, or on safe.
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@ manhairetis,
Could this happen to annyone ?
Yes it most certainly can.
Went to the range this evening. Did some 25 mtrs, and to empty the box, one target two hands at 12 mtrs.
Last 5 rds in the magazine and rapid fire. Finished, got target back, close group, 4 nice holes ! Where did number 5 go ?
CZ on the table, pointed downrange, magazine out and suddenly noticed the slide forward in SA-mode, same like you.
I immediately remembered your post from yesterday. Carefully picked up the pistol, racked slide back to get the nr. 5 out.
Put it back in to the magazine to fire last shot, perfect 10.
Thanks for sharing, you safed the day ;)
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Franc,
It certainly can happen to anyone. Actually it does and so often, that in the Air Force (and elsewhere) it has its own name as I have mentioned above: Loss of S.A.
Thank you for your kind words. I am very glad that you also followed the rules and you had a safe outcome too.
Best regards,
M.
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Ingrain the IPSC way in your mind...if you have finished,show clear,if you are clear,slide down.hammer down and holster..all done with the gun pointing down range
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Agree for IPSC way.
If finished, unload and show clear, if clear, hammer down (dry firing), holster (or table). After that you should open the action and let it open.
On the table, a gun may always be open. A closed gun is a loaded gun.
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Hiya plus one on all the posts, conversation about safety should keep this thread actively alive a long time. I consider myself a novice, 18 months into gun ownership. I've taken a number of courses, private lessons, and believed I operate as safe as possible, until reading this thread. My excuse, rather rationalization for not firing till the slide locks empty is that it will extend the life of the frame. So typically count rounds shot and empty the mag, and replace with another full mag. When its time to reload mags, there is one in the chamber and I decock or apply manual safety, and its on the bench till I start shooting again. If I need to leave the bench I'll lock the slide open and take the round out, and when done will lock slides open as they return to the case. Making the point about gettin distracted while one is in the pipe, on the bench made me think bout the amount of youngsters that are at my local range, and what could happen in a minute or two.
A smith and instructor, reminded me what could happen if I continued with my habit of cocking with my thumb ie. if I slipped, what direction the slide would take and the likely effect on said thumb, same goes for returning the hammer with just a thumb on a loaded chamber. Thanks for the link for the plastic barrel things, and to the thread....be well
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Several things come to mind here. 1. Always treat a weapon as if it were loaded. 2. keep your finger off the triger untill ready to fire. 3.-99. Same as #2.... Even when I retrieve my weapons from my safe, I always inspect to make sure they are unloaded. Many people are against a mandatory saftly lesson when purchasing a new weapon. Not me. I am very sceptical to go to the range anymore because so many new people are purchasing guns, none of them had parents or friends train them in firearms safty. I've seen some scary things at the range. Just my .02c. Lets all do our part to make this a safe sport. Help a fellow shooter.
Andrew