The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: ezbobdad on April 14, 2013, 11:10:36 PM
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So I have a question. I've been reloading and having a problem with the bullet fully going into the chamber. I was given some remmington ammo and took some mesurments off them and my oal was somewhere around 1.05 or 1.06.
So then I stole a single bullet from my father in laws stash the last time I shot with him. A Winchester white box kind. Oal on it was 1.16. So I worked up a batch today to test at 1.155. And they worked amazing.
I try to push test them all before I shoot them but I prob don't know what I'm doing so they all seem to fit. I shoot a 75b. Is this a normal oal or should I try something else. Let me know genius's.
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Well, you missed the gen"iouses", but the BULLET itself is the driver for OAL
Just because a Remington bullet will run in your gun doesn't mean all similar bullets will at that oal. A Berry's, WIN, ZERO, MG bullet bullet of the same "TYPE" may need a completely different OAL to run safely in your gun.
SEE the sticky for Wobbly's PUSH TEST and follow the instructions. JMO: This should be in your personal notes as STEP #1 before reloading any new bullet..
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The learned 1SOW is correct. Different bullet makers use different formulas for the curve of the ogive. Therefore, each and every bullet will adapt to your chamber with its own distinct OAL. That also applies within brands. Just because a 115gr Remington does such and such, doesn't mean that the 124gr Remington will be remotely similar.
So the rule is this: the Max OAL is always set by the bullet-to-barrel interface.
Here's an extreme example....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sGua8rQCV7E/S3YuUS6TZyI/AAAAAAAACu0/8VRRqOxmSU8/s640/zero.jpg)
Both bullets shown are advertized as "9mm 124gr RN" by major US manufacturers. The one on the left has a Max OAL in a CZ chamber of 1.000", while the one on the right has a Max OAL of 1.200".
;)
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So I have a question. I've been reloading and having a problem with the bullet fully going into the chamber. I was given some remmington ammo and took some mesurments off them and my oal was somewhere around 1.05 or 1.06.
So then I stole a single bullet from my father in laws stash the last time I shot with him. A Winchester white box kind. Oal on it was 1.16. So I worked up a batch today to test at 1.155. And they worked amazing.
I try to push test them all before I shoot them but I prob don't know what I'm doing so they all seem to fit. I shoot a 75b. Is this a normal oal or should I try something else. Let me know genius's.
1.05 or 1.16...holy bleep. If I loaded my Montana Gold JHPs to 1.05 or 1.16 that could be catastrophic. My over all length is 1.085 using Montana Gold JHP for my Accu-shadow. At 1.099 the bullet is dangerously close to engaging the rifling lands. At 1.100, the bullet engages the lands and makes the cartridge overlength, because it doesn't spin freely anymore. This is for my gun specifically. My point for this illustrative purpose is to show the importance of measuring per each gun individually.
Reloading is great and all, but please learn all you can before doing so. It can be the difference between safety and skirting danger (or worse).
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1.05 or 1.16...holy bleep.
You are such a potty mouth.
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1.05 or 1.16...holy bleep.
You are such a potty mouth.
Found this online and had to post. All in good fun of course.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/104mdt2.jpg)
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Back on topic though, OP should learn what to measure for and how to measure. One does not simply enter Mordor...er reload.
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Found this online and had to post. All in good fun of course.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/104mdt2.jpg)
Where's the "Like" or Thumbs up button on the forum?!?
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O0 O0 O0 O0
(http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q668/riptide439/5ff47bbc-b6a5-4d1b-ba6e-5e720915fe39_zps2c4caa1d.jpg)
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So of I did the test right. My max oal is 1.185. Soooo the 1.160 or the 1.155 should be fine. Right?
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Yes. Sammi Max is 1.169"
Sent from my CZ85 Combat
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So of I did the test right. My max oal is 1.185. Soooo the 1.160 or the 1.155 should be fine. Right?
That's not an assumption you should ever make. Reloads will vary based on a number of factors including gun (varies from gun to gun even if comparing the same model of gun), bullet (the projectile only, not the case), and bullet type. So you take a measurement of your reload and that number is okay for that reload with that bullet (again, just the projectile, not cartridge which is bullet + gunpowder + case + primer). Now you go compare to factory loaded ammo, and they are mutually exclusive. Basically for factory ammo, if you drop the cartridge in your barrel and it headspaces correctly without the projectile snagging on the rifling, then that's okay. But note, this will not be optimal length for your gun because factory ammo has to work on a broad range of guns. This is why reloaded ammo can be more accurate than factory ammo. Just because your reloaded ammo measures out to be a certain length doesn't mean that automatically all factory ammo that is the same length or shorter will work. Different projectiles have different shapes - ogive.
Now let's back track a sec. You measured 1.185. What measurement is this? Is this overlength? Overlength is when you do the push test with a fired casing and the projectile inserted into the barrel, and you push until the cartridge headspaces. This is the length that is "over" the length of what your ammo should be because the ogive is engaging the rifling. This is not the measure you should make ANY of your reloads. You subtract from .15 - .20 inch as a rule of thumb because you need a tad of jump space before the actual projectile hits the rifling.
Do you see now why you can't make a generalization that because your measurement is good (not that we know from what you said WHICH measurement this actually is - overlength of max length), it's automatically good for factory ammo?
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So of I did the test right. My max oal is 1.185. Soooo the 1.160 or the 1.155 should be fine. Right?
If you did the test right then 1.16 or 1.155 is only safe for that bullet style from that manufacturer.
That would allow for a .015-.020 setback assuming the push test round fouled the rifling at 1.185.
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So of I did the test right. My max oal is 1.185. Soooo the 1.160 or the 1.155 should be fine. Right?
Not enough information to answer the question.
The heavier the bullet, the longer the bullet. A certain proportion of the bullet has to be gripped in the case mouth. So with a 90gr bullet you might only have .005" engagement at 1.160". With a 147gr bullet you might be good.
All we can say is that you will clear the rifling, and you will clear the mag. Both major hurdles, but not the only hurdles.
;)
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Some like to load as long as possible in THAT pistol with THAT bullet, but others like yours truly prefers to have ample seating depthe to secure the bullet and allow a good pressure build upon blast-off. Hope this doesn't confuse the issue. O0
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Confuse the issue? Hahahahahaha. You guys are way too smart. Don't let anyone tell you different.
So the 1.185 was the max length.
The bullet head is berry's 124gr. Round nose. 9mm. And I'm shooting a 75b. And the shorter bullets don't always go into the chamber from the mag. She likes the longer bullets much better. I hope this helps clarify some things. So I can make some better bullets.
And thanks for all the help.
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Load that sucker from 1.125 to 1.135 and watch the bull disappear. No FTFs, no bull.
Many 124RN bullets like that oal (WIN, MG and ZEROs to name three) , BUT that is just an opinion from one reloader. ;D ;D
This is what makes reloading as challenging and as enjoyable as shooting---almost. Load 'em the way you and your pistol like 'em.
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ezbob I think you should stop everything and start from scratch...the max OAL you keep telling us you are getting is above sami max and I dont think a stock 75b will (AT LEAST IN MOST CASES)not load to sami max. Judging from your posts, I would suggest you stop trying to learn how to reload of the internet . Find a friend who is an experianced reloader, let him show you the basics...no offence mate. ;)
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The man's doing OK. He's asking intelligent questions, and taking it all to heart. Although I prefer and recommend the mentor method, 9x19 is a more difficult round to reload than one might imagine. I enjoy the 'give and take' of the forum format, and think one gains a lot more insight from the multiple points of view being offered. Personally speaking, I learn something most every time I open up this web page, thanks in part to the multi-person format.
With any RN bullet (hollow base or not), you should NOT have any feed issues at all. The feed ramps are generally optimized for RN. It's the sharp angular cones, like those of an XTP, that generally get more persnickety about OAL.
I've had zero issues with Berry RN in the 1.125 to 1.140" OAL range, and excellent shooting performance. Plus I have a set of targets proving that 1.140 is better for accuracy than 1.160". So this is not just my opinion.
;)
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I agree with the mentor method. Just when in the boonies it's hard to find them. And you guys are great. I do not plan on putting my self in danger shoot a reload any time soon. Trust me there. My wife might get upset. I also in no way shape or form want to replace a gun due to bad ammo. So I do measure and extra measure everything I'm a bit anal when it comes to reloading. Just trying to make the gun cycle better with the reloads. And as far as shooting better I did do about 15 rounds at oal 1.145 and I had to shoot one low so I knew I was hitting something. I stacked about 5 in a row in a quarter space at 10 yards.
You guys on here are the best. Every question I have whether stupid or not has always been answered. Way better then any other forum out there.
Thanks
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I agree with the mentor method. Just when in the boonies it's hard to find them. And you guys are great. I do not plan on putting my self in danger shoot a reload any time soon. Trust me there. My wife might get upset. I also in no way shape or form want to replace a gun due to bad ammo. So I do measure and extra measure everything I'm a bit anal when it comes to reloading. Just trying to make the gun cycle better with the reloads. And as far as shooting better I did do about 15 rounds at oal 1.145 and I had to shoot one low so I knew I was hitting something. I stacked about 5 in a row in a quarter space at 10 yards.
You guys on here are the best. Every question I have whether stupid or not has always been answered. Way better then any other forum out there.
Thanks
Keep it safe and have fun. Good to hear you taking safety into extreme consideration. Reloading is one of those things that can be very rewarding if done correctly, but also very dangerous if done improperly. Better to do it right the first time around. Ask any more questions that you may have. Someone will be able to answer it.
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ezbob I think you should stop everything and start from scratch...the max OAL you keep telling us you are getting is above sami max and I dont think a stock 75b will (AT LEAST IN MOST CASES)not load to sami max. Judging from your posts, I would suggest you stop trying to learn how to reload of the internet . Find a friend who is an experianced reloader, let him show you the basics...no offence mate. ;)
The Berry's 124gr HBRN, and I'm assuming the regular 124gr RN, will most certainly load to SAAMI max in my 85, and the push test was very similar to ezbobdads's results. It's a very versatile bullet. I push tested a LRN bullet recently that pushed at over 1.2". I also tested a LRN that pushed at 1.103. It reinforces why the push test is so important.
While I agree that internet info can often times be flat out wrong...I learned to re-load right here...from people like you...and Wobbly...and many others. While some of the advice has definitely been based on opinion, I don't think I've been given one bad piece of advice here and certainly nothing that would put me in danger.
Mentors are hard to find up here in the hills too. This place has been a great resource.
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Every question I have whether stupid or not has always been answered. Way better then any other forum out there.
That's because in reloading the only "stupid questions" are the ones left unasked.
;)
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Answering questions are these guys specialty. I was a real pain in the a**. They put up with 14 pages of questions when I started.
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Answering questions are these guys specialty. I was a real pain in the a**.
I just checked my Moderators Log Book. You still have 2 frownie faces in the PIA column. The good news is you're down from 5.
O0
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While the mentor system is most likely the best way for someone to learn the downside is that only that person learns. Many people learn when there's a question asked and answered on a public forum. This is a great website and I especially enjoy reading and gaining knowledge from the reloading postings.
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I just checked my Moderators Log Book. You still have 2 frownie faces in the PIA column. The good news is you're down from 5.
O0
Only 5! Let me start over again.
How to get Started Reloading?
I was thinking about reloa...
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Only 5! Let me start over again.
How to get Started Reloading?
I was thinking about reloa...
Note to self: watch this guy.
;D
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5 Aw SHooTS= 52 ATTA BOYS
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So of I did the test right. My max oal is 1.185. Soooo the 1.160 or the 1.155 should be fine. Right?
As I read this again, I came up with yet another interpretation of what you're saying. So that you can better understand the instructions, let's go back and touch on this one subject.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ys5bfNNGb-Y/UXJj_aQLDQI/AAAAAAAAD5U/4gY51A8F1xQ/s800/OAL%2520Map.jpg)
The load reipe determines the Min OAL out of concerns for safety. The barrel determines the Max OAL from the physical necessities. I think you got that. But the "maximum" is simply that. I think you might be confusing "maximum" with "useful" or "real world".
Let me explain it this way: Your car's "maximum speed" might be 110 MPH, but the useful speed is set by the speed limit signs on the side of the road. Yes, you can always go faster, but it's not always wise, due to other "real world" considerations.
So the "Max OAL" is merely a boundary, a limit. The useful OAL is set by other concerns like preventing setback, having a useful crimp surface, having a length that the mag can reliably feed, etc. The Max and Min merely provide the chalk lines on the ball field, but that's not where we generally play the game.
In some weird cases, especially when you get down around the 1.000" OAL, where Luger cartridges seem to start having feed issues, if your Max OAL is 1.010", then you might want to use the Max OAL as your Useful OAL.
But in your case, you have plenty of room to shorten up and still build a better cartridge.
Hope this helps. ;)
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This COL question is getting way too complicated. Wobbly's diagram says it all. The COL data in a load table is not a hard and fast dimension, it's only data from that particular source for that particular powder for that particular bullet weight/style in that particular firearm or test barrel.
If it fits, the mag; if it fits the chamber; if it feeds reliably--it's good to go. Most loads will give best accuracy at the longest COL that does all three.
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I think this all is making sense. Thanks for all the help. Don't hesitate to keep talking about anything in reloading because I think this is great. You guys are awesome.
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You want to go as long as possible without engaging the rifling where you can still insure jump gap. Always remember that the shorter you seat the bullet, the higher the pressure will be upon ignition. Pressure = force divided by area. Decrease the area (internal volume of the cartridge) = pressure will increase.
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You want to go as long as possible without engaging the rifling where you can still insure jump gap. Always remember that the shorter you seat the bullet, the higher the pressure will be upon ignition. Pressure = force divided by area. Decrease the area (internal volume of the cartridge) = pressure will increase.
That is true, but if you decrease the charge proportionately to the change in OAL, or seating depth, the pressure doesn't rise.
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OK I have a question,,,,,, my push test was 1.09 and with .015 subtracted it gives me 1.075. Seems that 1.069 to 1.070 is better on the plunk test. With all this talk of the OAL what is the min OAL ???
9 mm 115 grain LRD bullet
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You want to go as long as possible without engaging the rifling where you can still insure jump gap. Always remember that the shorter you seat the bullet, the higher the pressure will be upon ignition. Pressure = force divided by area. Decrease the area (internal volume of the cartridge) = pressure will increase.
That is true, but if you decrease the charge proportionately to the change in OAL, or seating depth, the pressure doesn't rise.
Also true, but there's a limit to how much you can do this and still have the gun cycling properly. How much will depend on which gun, what components, and what power factor.
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OK I have a question,,,,,, my push test was 1.09 and with .015 subtracted it gives me 1.075. Seems that 1.069 to 1.070 is better on the plunk test. With all this talk of the OAL what is the min OAL ???
9 mm 115 grain LRD bullet
It depends on what your rule of thumb is. If your push test yields an over length of 1.09, meaning at 1.09 the projectile engages rifling and at 1.08, it spins freely, and you subtract .015 to get 1.075, I would of course try to get every cartridge length as close to 1.075 as possible. My min would be 1.072 and my max would be 1.078. It depends on gun.
My over length is 1.099. So after subtracting .015, I get 1.085 rounding to the nearest 5th. I will do my best to keep the measures consistent, but at the same time if a cartridge measures 1.095, I'm not gonna pull it and do it again because it's within my specs. To me that is the max length I'd allow, but I have to be bleep sloppy to get 1.095 when I'm aiming for 1.085. I also would not pull a cartridge if it measured to be 1.080, because that's ~.02 shorter, and there are folks that will load to .02 shorter. I just want tighter tolerances so I go with .015. This is for range shooting and I measure every single cartridge if I'm not lazy, or every third cartridge if I am lazy.
If I shot competition, I would tighten the tolerances to +/- .002.
Those were all hypotheticals for my reloading. Generally, they're already +/- .002.
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OK I have a question,,,,,, my push test was 1.09 and with .015 subtracted it gives me 1.075. Seems that 1.069 to 1.070 is better on the plunk test. With all this talk of the OAL what is the min OAL ???
9 mm 115 grain LRD bullet
Anything below 1.00 would most likely be too sort to feed reliably.
Also true, but there's a limit to how much you can do this and still have the gun cycling properly. How much will depend on which gun, what components, and what power factor.
Yes, but...
The only limiting factor will be an OAL that prevents reliable feeding. If the load is adjusted correctly the pistol will still cycle as if published data was adhered to.
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So if my calculated OAL is the 1.075 and say I load them at 1.070 do I need to drop my powder charge if at first I stated to use 4.4 gr.
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So if my calculated OAL is the 1.075 and say I load them at 1.070 do I need to drop my powder charge if at first I stated to use 4.4 gr.
Dunno the bullet nor the powder brand to say, nor what you started with before loading. I'm inclined to say no, but that's just me. I'd work up charges before blindly trying a certain charge.
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So if my calculated OAL is the 1.075 and say I load them at 1.070 do I need to drop my powder charge if at first I stated to use 4.4 gr.
Dunno the bullet nor the powder brand to say, nor what you started with before loading. I'm inclined to say no, but that's just me. I'd work up charges before blindly trying a certain charge.
plus one Hark,I just thought I'd throw in the fact that the oal will probably be different every time you change bullet style and weight...hence charge etc will change...aaahh the reloading adventure ;)
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So if my calculated OAL is the 1.075 and say I load them at 1.070 do I need to drop my powder charge if at first I stated to use 4.4 gr.
Dunno the bullet nor the powder brand to say, nor what you started with before loading. I'm inclined to say no, but that's just me. I'd work up charges before blindly trying a certain charge.
plus one Hark,I just thought I'd throw in the fact that the oal will probably be different every time you change bullet style and weight...hence charge etc will change...aaahh the reloading adventure ;)
Sorry, I'm using HP-38 and 115 gr. LRD from Missouri bullets. Gun is my cz 75 compact . I just pulled 4.4 out of my hat. Was planning on starting at 3.8 and working up 0.2 grains at a time . I believe 4.4 is mid anyway.
[Added a decimal place. ]
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So if my calculated OAL is the 1.075 and say I load them at 1.070 do I need to drop my powder charge if at first I stated to use 4.4 gr.
If you have data at 1.075 then I would not adjust the load.
I would start at the starting load and work up as always. A .005 difference would be very difficult to calculate, much less measure, a proportionalized load.
While some keep tolerances to less than +- .005 that figure is not out of the realm of reason.
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OK I have a question,,,,,, With all this talk of the OAL what is the min OAL ???
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ys5bfNNGb-Y/UXJj_aQLDQI/AAAAAAAAD5U/4gY51A8F1xQ/s800/OAL%2520Map.jpg)
The load recipe determines the Min OAL out of concerns for safety.
;)
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Don't hesitate to keep talking about anything in reloading because I think this is great. You guys are awesome.
Really now. You've got to set yourself some higher standards !!
:o ;D
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Thanks Richard!