The Original CZ Forum

CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ CLONE CLUB => Topic started by: Bob928 on October 09, 2013, 04:37:26 PM

Title: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: Bob928 on October 09, 2013, 04:37:26 PM: Everyone is probably aware of the Canik 55 Shark C but the Sarsilmaz Kama had a very short import life through Academy in Katy, TX. I don't think it was supposed to be imported. Probably some mix up in paperwork somewhere. I think this because it hasn't been imported since and the word "Turkey" is spelled "Turkiye" the way it's spelled in the Turkish language. They don't make the Kama any longer but they do make one similar called the P8S. ( http://sarsilmaz.com/en-us/p8s-black/723/page.aspx (http://sarsilmaz.com/en-us/p8s-black/723/page.aspx)) I find it interesting that I can't insert a link to a word like on most forums or possibly it's done in a way I haven't seen yet. Anyway...

(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z133/netbob928_photos/Gunnery%20Stuff/mini-DSC00821_zps671787d8.jpg)
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z133/netbob928_photos/Gunnery%20Stuff/mini-DSC00820_zps9882f6d0.jpg)
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z133/netbob928_photos/Gunnery%20Stuff/mini-DSC00824_zps0a638482.jpg)
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z133/netbob928_photos/Gunnery%20Stuff/mini-DSC00826_zps68d83745.jpg)
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z133/netbob928_photos/Gunnery%20Stuff/mini-DSC00825_zps0198728a.jpg)
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z133/netbob928_photos/Gunnery%20Stuff/mini-DSC00831_zps9474d4b0.jpg)
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z133/netbob928_photos/Gunnery%20Stuff/mini-DSC00833_zps0eaa11a8.jpg)

You can see the barrel sits lower in the Shark. The Kama isn't ported but does have holes drilled in the slide to lighten it up and for better grip to check if round is chambered. The slide is tighter on the Shark than the Kama. There is actually a small bit of play on the Kama. The trigger feels very good to me in both DA and SA and is about the same on both. I would not be surprised if I found out they are made by the same people. The grip on the Kama feels like it was made for my medium-sized hand. Once I switched to rubber CZ Compact grips on the Shark it too felt great. The Kama is a bit heavier but not by a lot and has a very nice finish. I found the Kama mags will fit and work in the Shark but not the other way around. They may just need a slight dremel adjustment. Since I have 3 Kama mags I will leave things as they are for now though. The mags from the Shark fit in the Kama but would not 'click in' or feed into the chamber. The slide serrations on the Kama appear to be machined and deeper than the Shark's. Perhaps the Shark serrations are stamped.

I haven't shot the Kama yet but I have a feeling it will become my favorite shooting pistol. The safety feels great whereas the Shark safety was far too tight. I loosened it up by tapping the shaft out a little but it's still too sticky for my liking. I will fix it eventually but really should not have to do this to a new gun. Especially one that is so well made in every other way. The Turks have been making firearms for at least 130 years so they obviously know what they are doing and know how to make a quality firearm as anyone with one knows.

So just in case someone gets a Kama in their travels or the P8S is imported in the future; this post may have some value to them.

I'm hooked on the CZ family of pistols but don't feel the need to limit myself to CZ only. I think my next and probably last pistol purchase will be the Sar K2 .45. I just hope I can find some rubber grips for it too. The Sar 12 ga shotgun with the pistol grip is calling my name too but that is for another time down the road.
Title: Re: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: jwc007 on October 09, 2013, 07:10:57 PM: Very Interesting! As the Kama and the Shark C are made by two different Companies, Sarsilmaz and Canik 55 respectively, I would not expect Magazines to directly interchange.

Also, you will find that the Canik Shark design is more Cz based and the Sarsilmaz Kama more Tanfoglio based. Sarsilmaz and Tanfoglio had a partnership at one time.

The Kama has a frame that is more based on the Witness. You should be able to use Tanfoglio Small Frame Magazines and Cz75B magazines with it.
The Kama Slide and Barrel also looks very similar to my SAR K2P-9's Slide and Barrel, using a Chamber Locking Block instead of Locking Lugs.
My SAR K2P will use Mec-Gar Cz75B 17 and 19 round Magazines, but not the Mec-Gar 16 round Magazines, as the Magazine Lock Slot does not quite reach the Magazine Latch.

(http://www.hunt101.com/data/549/medium/Turkish_Delights_Scale.jpg)
Left to Right
EAA SAR K2-45 .45 ACP
EAA SAR K2P 9mm
Canik 55 TP-9 9mm

The only Rubberized Grip I've found for my SAR K2-45 is an Uncle Mikes Slip on. My SAR K2P-9 wears a Hogue Handall.

Not surprised that the Cz75 Pachmayr Finger Groove Grips fit the Kama, and I have them on a few of my Tanfoglio Pistols.

(http://www.hunt101.com/data/549/medium/TA90_MAP1.jpg)
Tanfoglio Series 88 TA90
Tanfoglio Armscore RIA MAP1
Both with 19 round Mec-Gar Cz75 Magazines and Hogue Grips
Title: Re: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: nalioth on October 09, 2013, 07:31:00 PM: Quote from: jwc007 on October 09, 2013, 07:10:57 PM
Also, you will find that the Canik Shark design is more Cz based and the Sarsilmaz Kama more Tanfoglio based. Sarsilmaz and Tanfoglio had a partnership at one time.
The Shark is a copy of the Jericho 941, which is 80% Tanfoglio made / 20% Israel made (or something like that)
Title: Re: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: Bob928 on October 09, 2013, 08:18:49 PM: Quote
My SAR K2P will use Mec-Gar Cz75B 17 and 19 round Magazines, but not the Mec-Gar 16 round Magazines, as the Magazine Lock Slot does not quite reach the Magazine Latch.

Thank you jwc007. This clears up that issue. I have 3 Mec-Gar 16 rd mags for the Shark I also tried on the Kama. Looks like a 17 rd mag or two might be in my future. :)

Looks like you have a nice collection there. Yes. The Pachmayr grip must have been installed by the previous owner. I lucked out and found this on gunbroker for a very good price being sold by someone who bought it but never found the time to shoot it so this particular Kama is still unfired but not for long. Thanks much for the info!

nalioth: I do know the Shark looks like the Jericho except for the slide mounted safety but I'm not altogether convinced the Shark is based on the Tanfoglio design. I think jwc007 is correct about it being more CZ based. Both seem so much alike; I'm not even sure what the real differences are.
Title: Re: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: Bob928 on October 09, 2013, 08:46:50 PM: During my research I did turn up some other info about the Kama for anyone who might be interested. http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/3000/3047.htm (http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/3000/3047.htm)

(http://www.securityarms.com/cgi-local/protect.pl?File=3000/3000pics/3047.jpg)

Kama Sport http://tabancalar.net/sarsilmaz-kama-sport/ (http://tabancalar.net/sarsilmaz-kama-sport/) This site has quite a few interesting pictures.
(http://www.tabancalar.net/wp-content/uploads/sars%C4%B1lmaz-kama-sport-fiyat%C4%B1.jpg)
(http://www.tabancalar.net/wp-content/uploads/sars%C4%B1lmaz-kama-sport.jpg)

The same site has pics of pistols you might recognize under a different name like this "Combat Master".
(http://www.tabancalar.net/wp-content/uploads/sars%C4%B1lmaz-combat-master.jpg)

Then there's the Kama with extended barrel.
(http://www.tabancalar.net/wp-content/uploads/sars%C4%B1lmaz-kama-fiyat%C4%B1.jpg)

The Kama Long. I'd like to have one of these too. ;)
(http://www.tabancalar.net/wp-content/uploads/sars%C4%B1lmaz-kama-long-fiyat%C4%B1.jpg)

The Sarsilmaz Kilinc Mega which is the Sar K2 .45 in the USA I believe.
(http://www.tabancalar.net/wp-content/uploads/sars%C4%B1lmaz-k%C4%B1l%C4%B1n%C3%A7-2000-mega-fiyat.jpg)
(http://www.tabancalar.net/wp-content/uploads/sars%C4%B1lmaz-k%C4%B1l%C4%B1n%C3%A7-2000-mega-fiyat%C4%B1.jpg)

The Mega all fancied up...
(http://www.tabancalar.net/wp-content/uploads/sars%C4%B1lmaz-k%C4%B1l%C4%B1n%C3%A7-2000-resmi.jpg)
(http://www.tabancalar.net/wp-content/uploads/sars%C4%B1lmaz-k%C4%B1l%C4%B1n%C3%A7-2000-.jpg)

I wonder if that is a picture of the original Sarsilmaz creator.

Maybe something in the works?
(http://www.tabancalar.net/wp-content/uploads/sars%C4%B1lmaz1-300x233.jpg)
Title: Re: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: nalioth on October 09, 2013, 08:47:12 PM: Quote from: Bob928 on October 09, 2013, 08:18:49 PM
nalioth: I do know the Shark looks like the Jericho except for the slide mounted safety but I'm not altogether convinced the Shark is based on the Tanfoglio design. I think jwc007 is correct about it being more CZ based. Both seem so much alike; I'm not even sure what the real differences are.
It is a copy of the Jericho 941 "F" model.

(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/397288a8271b04f1d2ec3b056aa8a05d.jpg)

Here's how to tell if it's Tanfoglio or CZ based: If you can engage the manual safety with the hammer down, it's Tanfoglio based.
Title: Re: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: Bob928 on October 09, 2013, 10:13:18 PM: Ahhh. Got it. I didn't know there were different 941 models. Definitely learned a lot today. Thanks to you both!

Yep. Definitely a direct copy of the one you pictured. Is this one also considered a Baby Eagle?
Title: Re: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: nalioth on October 10, 2013, 04:45:06 AM: Quote from: Bob928 on October 09, 2013, 10:13:18 PM
Ahhh. Got it. I didn't know there were different 941 models. Definitely learned a lot today. Thanks to you both!

Yep. Definitely a direct copy of the one you pictured. Is this one also considered a Baby Eagle?
The Jericho 941 was originally imported under that name.

As time went by, and importation contracts lapsed / companies folded / things changed, the gun was imported by various companies under the following names:
Uzi Eagle
Baby Eagle
just "Jericho"

ETA: If you go to IWI or IMI (or whatever they're calling themselves these days) and download the product brochure on the Jericho 941 (the Israelis still call it that), it will show you all the current alphabet variants and what they mean.

I went ahead and screencapped that page from the PDF:

(http://www.novarata.net/images/i/IWI_JERICHO_Pistols.jpg)
Title: Re: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: Bob928 on October 10, 2013, 11:52:32 AM: Interesting indeed! I didn't know there were polymer frame Jericho variants and it looks like there was not a Jericho Compact about the same size as the Shark C unless it simply isn't picture. I bet we see a polymer Canik in the future unless they decided to go with the striker fired TP-9 instead.
Title: Re: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: nalioth on October 10, 2013, 12:05:02 PM: Quote from: Bob928 on October 10, 2013, 11:52:32 AM
Interesting indeed! I didn't know there were polymer frame Jericho variants and it looks like there was not a Jericho Compact about the same size as the Shark C unless it simply isn't picture.
The "FBL" and "PSL" are compacts (look at the distance from the Picatinny slot to the front of the dust cover)

Also, it should be no coincidence that the Jericho "went polymer" about the same time as Tanfoglio did, as Tanfoglio makes an "80%" Jericho, which is then finished in Israel (so they can legally call it "Made in Israel").
Title: Re: Canik Shark C comparo Sar Kama/P8S
Post by: jwc007 on October 10, 2013, 02:06:19 PM: Quote from: nalioth on October 09, 2013, 08:47:12 PM
Here's how to tell if it's Tanfoglio or CZ based: If you can engage the manual safety with the hammer down, it's Tanfoglio based.

Also, with the Slide off of the Frame, looking at the Automatic Firing Pin lever, when you pull the trigger, it should go Down, not up as the Cz's do.
The Tanfoglio/Martin Tuma Lever releases the Firing Pin Lock, and the Cz's Automatic Firing Pin Lever lifts the Block up.

This is one reason the Tanfoglio based pistols have a slightly better out of the box trigger pull.

Also, I now see that the Shark C uses the Tanfoglio Modular Magazine Release button. My Pre-B Cz75 used a Wire Springed Release incorporated into the Frame.