The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: levellinebrad on November 04, 2013, 06:00:13 AM
-
I have loaded 115gr plated which I really like and I have loaded 147gr LRN. I much preferred the 115gr plated over the 147gr lead. I will be ordering some 124gr lead that should show up by the end of the week. I have a couple of questions.
What powder have you found that works best with 124gr lead?
I have unique, clays, and wsf in stock in my cabinet but will be happy to buy a different brand upon recommendation. The only powder I cannot find is the VV brand.
Does anyone actually prefer lead to plated or jacketed rounds? Looking for 1st hand knowledge on how it shoots and how you like the feel of it.
The other rounds I have been contemplating is a 124gr plated flat point. Anyone have any feedback on that?
The round that I need is for USPSA production. I am looking for a softish recoil and acceptable accuracy. Acceptable to me is aimed fire at 20yds to produce no greater than a 4" group. That seems easily achievable. I will sacrifice a little accuracy for faster follow up shots is what I am saying. These rounds will be shot from an SP-01. Any and all knowledge on what you shoot for competition and why you shoot it is much appreciated.
-
LLB,
Can't help you on lead. As for plated, Berry's 124gr HBRN is my choice. For me the HBRN are a bit more accurate then the FP.
I don't have any data on the powder you have but I have seen threads on this forum for Unique and WSF. My personal favorites are VV N320 and IMR 7625. Check out the most recent thread on 7625.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=57186.0 (http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=57186.0)
-
I have been following that thread very closely. Thanks for the input. The only reason I'm interested in lead is the cost. The 115 stuff I first used was from rmr. It would shoot a sub 2" group at 20 yds and very nice recoil. I may just keep using that if they meet PF. The only issue I have had so far with them is that the steel targets seem to take awhile to fall. That's why I was trying a heavier bullet.
-
I like Missouri Bullets 125gr LSWC over 6.0gr of HS-6 or 4.0gr of Win 231.
Cuts a nice hole in the target.
-
Ive shot every bullet weight that you jam into a 9mm case i think and i can say without a doubt that the lowest recoil round is going to be a heavy bullet with a fast powder. My favorite load is a 168gr SWC over 2.8grs on AA#2.
I prefer lead over copper anything because of the decreased cost and increased accuracy. I cast all my own bullets and then coat them but if your not a caster I would try some bullets from here http://www.bayoubullets.net/9mm.html
-
Ive shot every bullet weight that you jam into a 9mm case i think and i can say without a doubt that the lowest recoil round is going to be a heavy bullet with a fast powder.
That seems to be the conventional wisdom on the matter. Unfortunately, in my particular pistol, the opposite has proven to be true. I loaded many 147gr lead behind 2.6, 2.8, 3.0, 3.2, and 3.4grains of clays. The 2.6gr and the 2.8gr loads were very soft but just did not feel right to me. And I know that "feeling right" is a very subjective thing. They did not feel any softer, or I should say manageable, than the 115gr in front if 4.7gr of wsf. There were no problems with accuracy except the 3.4gr of clays. I am trading a guy my remaining 147gr. (54 off them) for some 124gr lead rn. At least I can test that round in the near future. Thanks for the input.
-
I don't know what your pressure levels were because they're not enough info on your load but I'm guessing why it felt weird is because the pressure was to low and that can slow cycling and make it fell off.
If you can list all the info of you load I can run it through quickload and give you a idea where your pressure level is.
With a 147gr bullet I would use a faster powder if low recoil is the goal. Nitro 100 seems to be about prefect I think that n310 might be a tad to fast.
-
I loaded all my 147gr loads to 1.148 oal. Lucky 13 lead rn. And all the powder weights listed above. Mixed range brass. Case was crimped in a Lee factory crimp die to .378
-
Lucky 13 lead rn. Need the length of the lead bullet itself since it's not a major manufacturer.
-
Lucky 13 lead rn. Need the length of the lead bullet itself since it's not a major manufacturer.
copy that. I will have to measure one when I get home.
-
the length of the bullet is .6745. The diameter is .357
-
I like Missouri Bullets 125gr LSWC over 6.0gr of HS-6 or 4.0gr of Win 231.
Cuts a nice hole in the target.
I looked at those. I really liked the swc in 45. Wasn't sure how they would work in the CZ. Do you have any problems with feeding?
-
Well if your using Hodgdon clays at 1.148 with a 147gr bullet that is .674 in length the pressure is way to high at 3.4gr of clays quickload says the pressure is around 59k give or take 1k but either way that's darn high. 2.4gr comes in at 30k psi and 2.6gr comes in at 35k looks like I assumed you had to little pressure when you had to much.
Have to checked any of these loads with a chrono? Quickload for me has not been off by much
-
I have not checked any of my loads with a chrono. I just ordered one this past weekend so I am hoping it will be here this week.
Other than having that program, how would I calculate pressure from my rounds?
Thanks for the info.
-
What powder have you found that works best with 124gr lead?
I have unique, clays, and wsf in stock in my cabinet but will be happy to buy a different brand upon recommendation. The only powder I cannot find is the VV brand.
Does anyone actually prefer lead to plated or jacketed rounds? Looking for 1st hand knowledge on how it shoots and how you like the feel of it.
The other rounds I have been contemplating is a 124gr plated flat point. Anyone have any feedback on that?
The round that I need is for USPSA production. I am looking for a softish recoil and acceptable accuracy. Acceptable to me is aimed fire at 20yds to produce no greater than a 4" group. That seems easily achievable. I will sacrifice a little accuracy for faster follow up shots is what I am saying. These rounds will be shot from an SP-01. Any and all knowledge on what you shoot for competition and why you shoot it is much appreciated.
I use mostly WST these days and it works well with Cast, Jacketed and Plated Bullets. A close second would be WSF, followed by Unique. As I assume you will be loading to only Minor Plus Velocities ( 130 PF ), a faster powder will work the best.
I prefer plated bullets, as I'm loading to a bit higher power factor, simply because I want to.
A Berry's 124 grain Flat Point running at 1130 fps. Back when I loaded Cast Bullets, I loaded only to 1050 fps or so, with a 124 grain bullet.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/549/medium/MAP1_Accuracy_sml.jpg)
Armscore/Tanfoglio RIA MAP1 9x19mm Accuracy with Match load of Berry's 124 grn FP over 4.8 grains of WST at 50 feet, offhand.
-
Other than having that program, how would I calculate pressure from my rounds?
If I knew that I wouldn't have the 150 dollar program. With a chrono you can take the listed OAL, velocity, and pressure from your reloading manual and that will tell you where it is at. But if OAL or velocity changes so does pressure.
-
Other than having that program, how would I calculate pressure from my rounds?
There's only one way to know the chamber pressure, and that's to tap a hole into your chamber and hook a pressure transducer up. Not very easy or appealing task on an auto pistol. The software will help make an educated guess, but the only way to know is the transducer route.
But the chrono saves you all that trouble and equipment. Within the allowable load range, velocity and chamber pressure correlate nicely. However, this approach is still only an educated guess. So when you find load data for a bullet highly similar to the ones you use, you can relate the speed/pressure numbers given in that load data.
;)
-
With a chrono you can take the listed OAL, velocity, and pressure from your reloading manual and that will tell you where it is at. But if OAL or velocity changes so does pressure.
I know we're straying the original question, but this leads to an esoteric question by a curious member.
If container with a given amount of gas pressure inside is made 'half' the size, I believe pressure "doubles". 50 percent reduction in volume = 100% increase in pressure.
IF SO:
There can be calcuted a given amount of volume below the bullet base when at the reloading manual OAL---lets say 1.142" OAL.
GIVEN: A .748" Case has .580" of available empty space. If following published OAL seats the bullet .200" into the case, _the case now has .560" of available space
GIVEN: The measured pressure is included in the load data.---lets say 30,000 PSI.
GIVEN: the bullet is seated .010" deeper into the case (1.140" oal), can the NEW Lower case volume's increased "Pressure" be "Estimated" by reducing the height of the "cylinder"/"empty case space" and doing the math? 30K psi @ .560 cyl. height. vs. ??K @ .550" cyl. height
My geometry and physics were a lot of years back which may be obvious if the "givens" aren't roughly true. (for discussion disregard the 'tapered' 9mm case :D)
If this approximates the new pressure generated, it would warn of OAL changes that would likely cause overpressures for those that don't have"Quickload".
Just idle time thoughts.
-
some good info here guys. Thanks for the hookup on probable pressure. I think I have pretty well decided to load either the 115gr or 124 gr bullet. I know some of you guys are loading 124 and want your input on powder. I am loading for uspsa minor PF. I will of course be trying the wsf as that worked so well behind the 115 plated. Being a noob to reloading, I am still trying to understand the mechanics and physics behind it. Such as: heavy bullet- use fast powder... light bullet - use slow powder. Gotta keep it simple for me. I was a Marine so not real good with complicated answers. I do better with Duh broke! Duh Fix!. Not really but you get my drift. I actually followed 1SOW's potential math formula for calculating pressure. Anyway, back to the original question. What powder behind a lead 124gr bullet? So far I have HS-6, WST, and win 231. Problem being that I do not know what you are loading for. I need light recoil. I need to make around 1030 FPS. I will sacrifice pin point accuracy for faster follow ups. Thanks again for all the good info. It may take awhile to sink in. But it will eventually
-
I'd use the 231.
-
I have several other votes from other forums for the 231 behind a lead bullet. I'll have to see if my local high priced gun shop has it in stock. I think I am going to try loading a 125gr flat point. I always liked the swc in 45 and I would think that the flat point would be similar. Thanks.
-
I would find the most accurate load, then respring to have the sights come back properly. A few tenths of a grain more isn't going to be a noticeable difference in recoil during a match.
Accuracy is important, bigger matches will have longer/tighter shots. I had a load for BBIs that had a spread of around 5" @ 20 yds. I upped it .2 and it dropped it to about 3" @ 25 yds.
At the hillbilly classic I tagged 2 poppers from 35 yds. Gave me great confidence in the load. The recoil change was a wash compared to the accuracy.
Plus, faster bullet=faster slide return=faster follow up shots
-
? The general rule is this: The heavier the bullet, then the slower the powder. That's why you don't see 231 listed in any manual for 147grn bullets. What you do see is slightly slower powders such as Unique. Trying to start a heavy bullet with fast powder is like hitting a bowling ball with a baseball bat. Now that doesn't mean that specialty reloaders never use it like this; in fact it's done all the time. But you have to "work up" your load to find what's best and be very careful becasue the load "window" gets VERY narrow. So 'faster' powders demand great technique, a solid proceedure, and maybe even more accurate equipment.
? Secondly, fast powders and lead can be an issue unto themselves. Faster powders are hotter burning powders. So for someone worried about leading, sticking a blow torch under a lead bullet can give varying results. What works for one guy with jacketed or plated bullets may fail miserably for another guy with lead. Follow? You'll just have to see what works for you.
? 231 is a very good, general use pistol powder. You can never go wrong with Win 231 (also sold under the name Hodgdon HP-38), especially as a beginning reloader. The main reason being that 231 is about the perfect burn rate (aka "powder speed") to get you to 130 PF and still burn cleanly. It's also 'cool' enough to work extremely well with lead. 231 is considered "moderately fast" powder and works well in almost every pistol cartridge. So if you're buying powder for the first time, don't worry about being stuck with something that you won't use up. It's also a very conservative power, able to do with 4.3 grns what others may take 6+ grns to do. It also meters extremely well, so your loads are consistently accurate. You could do worse. And that is not to say that it's the one and only, becasue there are tens of acceptable substitutes. Some cost more, some are harder to find, some need those 6 grns charges.
Hope this helps! ;)
-
I just bought some 231 so I will give it a try. I will also try the wsf and the clays. I guess I had it bass akwards on the powder vs weight. Chrono should be here on Thursday so maybe I can start collecting accurate info on my loads.
-
brad,
How many test rounds are you planning to make for each load you test?
-
I only make 10 of each different load.
-
Good.
W231 is a great powder to start with and well rounded. Works in 9mm as well as .45acp.
Work up to see which load your pistol prefers with each bullet selection.
Always fun to see which combo is best! ;)
-
Just to update my issue with not really liking the 147gr lead................ I think I know what part of the problem may have been. When I came downstairs tonight to determine my oal for the 125gr LTC, I realized that I had never done this with the 147gr. I was using an oal of 1.148. After doing the plunk test, I determined that my max oal for the 147gr was 1.122. What an idiot I am. I will have to go back and test the 147's again at a later date. On to the 125's. Max oal for that in my gun is 1.010.
-
Jamming into the rifling huh, we've all been there.
Thought I'd help example loads vs recoil the little that I can. Powder=recoil is what it comes down to and the reason there is less recoil with a heavier bullet is there is less gas produce because of the decreased powder. Here's an example: With the lee 102gr bullet I put 6.0gr of unique behind it to hit powder factor which is over twice the amount of powder require to hit it with my 168gr SWC load and there is a big noticeable difference between these two loads, now if your changing from 3gr to 3.5 I'm not sure you would notice anything so there is no reason you can't have a low recoil round and still have great accuracy.
-
Thanks.
-
Just to update my issue with not really liking the 147gr lead................ I think I know what part of the problem may have been. When I came downstairs tonight to determine my oal for the 125gr LTC, I realized that I had never done this with the 147gr. I was using an oal of 1.148. After doing the plunk test, I determined that my max oal for the 147gr was 1.122.
That's big. So when the slide slams forward, your ammo is being foreshortened to different OALs each time. That would do it.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CzoRkZSgwa8/TTL9Ul5nCmI/AAAAAAAACBY/plmw-wnMZpY/w784-h577-no/Did+you+make+that+ammo.jpg)
What an idiot I am.
We don't allow name calling or "bullying" on this board. If you can't come up with more polite names for yourself and stop pushing yourself around, then we'll have to ask you to leave. We're going to let you go this time with 20 pushups and a public apology.
O0
-
I just cranked out 40 push ups. As soon as the doctor lets me off the oxygen, I will write up a public apology. Please don't make me leave! I just got here.
-
Apology accepted.
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread. ;D
-
Loaded up a few test rounds with the 231. I will post results of the loads on Sunday after I test them or maybe Friday if I can get off work early. My impression of the 231 so far.
Pro: Very consistent throw from my loadmaster
Con: Cannot load below 3.1gr on my loadmaster. That's the smallest throw through the smallest hole available.
I will be testing loads with 125gr LRN and 125gr LTC and every powder I own. 231, unique, wsf, and clays.
-
So I got home early today and my chrono was sitting on the front porch so what do ya think I did? That's right, I shot some rounds down range. Here is the info I retrieved from my testing of the 125gr LTC from Lucky 13 using just the 231 powder because that was all I had loaded for the 125.
Elevation 600'
temp 70
wind blowing in my face about 10 MPH
Avg bullet weight 130gr
Mixed Brass
CCI #500 primers in all the loads
3.1gr 231
1.010 OAL
Avg Velocity 896 FPS
PF 116
3.4gr 231
1.010 Oal
Avg Velocity 955 FPS
PF 124
As you can see, none of these loads met minor power factor. I also tested some loads that I had loaded already in the 115gr plated and the 147gr lead. I will go ahead and list those results as well
115gr LRN RMR
Avg weight 115gr
5.7gr WSF
1.148 OAL
Avg Velocity 1059
PF 119
147gr LRN Lucky 13
No avg weight. I will have to pull some bullets to determine.
3.5gr WSF
1.130 OAL
Avg Velocity 862 FPS
PF 126 assuming an avg weight of 147gr
147gr LRN Lucky 13
3.5gr WSF
1.120 OAL
Avg Velocity 876
PF 128
147gr LRN Lucky13
2.6gr Clays
1.120 OAL
Avg Velocity 851
PF 125
DISCLAIMER: Do not trust any of my loads. They worked for me but might blow up on you.
-
Did some more testing with the wsf.
11/8/13
68 degrees
elevation 600'
wind was calm
mixed brass
cci #500 primers
LTC's avg weight is 130gr
LRN avg weight is 125gr
125gr LTC lucky13
3.8gr WSF
1.010 OAL
Avg velocity 949 FPS
PF 123
125gr LTC lucky13
4.0gr WSF
1.010 OAL
Avg velocity 998
PF 129
125gr LRN Lucky 13
4.0gr WSF
1.148 OAL
Avg velocity 966
PF 124
Probably need to shorten OAL on this load.
All loads were accurate. Recoil was minimum with the faster load having more recoil but still very manageable for fast 2nd shot.
-
Half the fun is testing loads till you find the sweet spot. Then you'll have to test them at 25 yards to make sure there accurate.
-
Yep. I saved some from the same loading session so that I can test accuracy at the range. I need to get the quick load software so I can estimate pressure.
-
More Testing. This time with Win 231
Temp 48 degrees
Elev 600'
CZ SP-01
125gr LTC lucky 13
3.6gr win 231
1.010 OAL
Avg Velocity 992 FPS
PF 129
Kinda smokey
Nice pile of brass about 3' to the right
Recoil is manageable
125gr LTC Lucky13
3.8gr Win 231
1.010 OAL
Avg Velocity 1027FPS
PF 133
A little more recoil obviously
Brass in a tight pile about 4' to the right
Still smokey.
Accuracy was acceptable on both rounds. I think I will test Clays behind the 125gr next