The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: cyberjad on January 23, 2014, 07:39:29 PM
-
I was never the biggest AK47 fan. Don't get me wrong, I do own three. However, I always thought they where kind of crap compared to ARs and other guns. Still I appreciated them for what they are and enjoy the experience and history behind them.
Recently, I began eying the Yugo M70 O-PAP AK47. Really neat guns for an AK, but I just can't get myself to pull the trigger on buying one. Every time I think about how much I love my VZ's, I feel ridiculous purchasing an inferior gun. I am still trying to talk myself into the O-PAP, but the two VZs I recently bought has really killed a bit of desire to buy these heavy, stamped guns with terrible safety's and significantly more recoil - even if they are fun to shoot.
Anyone else feeling ruined for AK's?
-
Not feeling ruined for my WASR; however, I do like the VZ better as far as the engineering is concerned; except, that I think I would prefer a fixed beaver barf stock instead of the folding stock. I have a lot more rounds through my WASR that has never failed, and I hope the VZ2008 can sustain the same kind of longevity and reliability. At this point, I don't see why it wouldn't.
-
I swapped the holding stock for a fixed stock on one of mine. This modification, along with a CNC Machine muzzle brake, has made the firearm more enjoyable to shoot.
-
Where did you get the fixed stock, and how much?
-
Czechpoint - $130
-
Thanks.
-
Yup try:
http://czechpoint-usa.com/
You may be able to piece one together or get one from Numrich:
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/CZ-33195/Rifles-35903/58-38704.htm
Or try ebay:
This guy is selling the original wooden stocks separately. They obviously are different material and won't match the barf. But it' cheaper if you just buy this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CZECH-ARMY-stock-COMPLET-wood-VZ58-vz-58-original-army-equipment-/121260834831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3bb5800f
ebay search vz 58 or vz58
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.Xvz+58&_nkw=vz+58&_sacat=0&_from=R40
There's gunbroker as well.
--------------------
-
Thanks for the links.
-
Anyone else feeling ruined for AK's?
Yup! I think my Egyptian Maadi AKM wonders what it did to sit in the safe, last Range Trip. ???
-
im a huge ak47 fan i have a total of 8..but all different variants. and do appreciate for what they are, and never complained about "terrible safetys" it works and being heavy...well they are made of steel but not heavy at least for me, maybe some people nowadays are spoiled with lighter guns i guess. oh wait i have a few ar15s, but im not complaining their too light that would be silly. dont get me wrong i love my vz58, hell i bought it before my first ak47. how i wish the vz58 had other variants built upon its chasis like the ak47 did...now that would be cool. hate to say it but sometimes my czusa vz58 gets boring at times compared to my aks. nothing wrong with ak47s at all..to each thier own but heres two i just finished modifying
-
Nice guns. Don't get me wrong - I do own 3 Ak's, along with my VZ's. Think I'll take one out today and see if I can rekindle the love ;)
-
Nice guns. Don't get me wrong - I do own 3 Ak's, along with my VZ's. Think I'll take one out today and see if I can rekindle the love ;)
Thanks
Good luck trying to rekindle the love, as when you shoot it it's still like "kind of crap" compared to other firearms as you stated, the terrible safety that works still gonna be there as you stated, recoil still gonna be ak47 like. Still going to be heavy for you. But hey at least I know in the end you have fun shooting them ;)
-
Slide Fire'd the heck out of my AK today. Made sure to shoot some on semi-auto too. It still feels very crude compared to the VZ, but I did enjoy it. I suppose that is part of the charm. Something tells me I am going to end up ordering that OPAP.
I forgot out much lighter the trigger pull is than my VZ2008. To be honest I really prefer the VZ overall; I just think the VZ is a better design and bargain, but I would love to make the trigger feel more like my AK.
-
bleep it. Ive been looking at AKs lately, kind of hoping the prices come down. Now I have the VZ58 on my mind. Have to keep my eye open for it. I definetly don't need any more handguns. Been looking at the Pap to. bleep it.
-
LOL yea there are a lot of good deals out there recently. I say grab a VZ2008 while they are cheap. They are outstanding rifles for the $450-$500 they are selling for right now.
-
LOL yea there are a lot of good deals out there recently. I say grab a VZ2008 while they are cheap. They are outstanding rifles for the $450-$500 they are selling for right now.
So you have 2 vz2008s?
Instead of me buying a U.S built vz2008, and a huge ak fan and have not got one in 5.45x39 I purchased a izmash saiga 74 two days ago instead.. Could not resist the price of 499
-
Thats a good price on a well made AK74. I try to avoid the 74, only because I don't want to worry about another caliber; there are too many I have to keep stocked already.
Yes, I own two of the VZ2008s. Picked up my first one a couple months back and fell in love with that. After a little shooting I decided I wanted a wood stock on the back and a CNC machine brake on the front. The second one I have not decided what to do with it yet. I was thinking about a modern build - polymer hand guards, replace the rear sight with a red dot, etc. We will see about that though; for now it sits in storage.
-
Those new production Zastava PAPs look like really nice rifles. Trying to find a reason/role to buy one -- not an immediate need for me however, but definitely in my long term wish/fulfilling every possible need list...
Thinking I can justify them as a more light squad support weapon role as well as backup for my VZ58s w/ the parts and magazine commonality with AKs. For likely stationary light squad support weapon, the heavier weight and stock comb/angle on these PAPs are a net positive, and see adding a bipod, possibly an optic, and the 3-4 of the AK47 75 round drums (that cost about the same as 1 of the VZ58 drums). In this role, the ergonomics differences/advantages from/of the VZ 58 become less important...
What I would really like to see is Zastava to start importing some of their M91 snipers, but don't know if that'll happen anytime soon. Will probably end up going with VEPR in 7.62x54r instead, which are little less accurate but a lot more common...
Currently, I have my 5.56/2.23 Century Golani Galil setup for a designated marksman rifle role and AK74s would probably also excel at this role and/or primary carbine weapon role for wife/kids/new shooters/folks whom are more recoil sensitive -- currently my primary weapon is the VZ58 with other AKs fulfilling various secondary/niche roles. The AK74 ammo costing 1/2 of the 223 and arguably being a more lethal/better engineered bullet over the 223 fmjs is also an add'l net plus...
My Galil reasoning is that from an ammo perspective, it's important for every American to have at least one weapon in that caliber and w/ my magwell adapter, I'm able to run the M16/4, AR15 stanag mags...
Ultimately, my next battle rifle purchase after my 2nd VZ 58 purchase will be a 308 -- either a scout type bolt action or a PTR91/HK91 (haven't decided which but leaning towards the latter). Caliber for same reasons as galil and platform as both fill the plus 350-400 yards limitations of my current setups (Galil shoots accurately to about 500, but the round's energy is spent by that range...), and with more capacity, detachable mags, less weight penalty, and still filling a legitimate battle rifle role. Most 7.62x54r platforms are most suitable to long-range sniper setups and/or long range battle rifles. Inside 100 yards, their limited capacity and/or unwieldly length make them unsuitable for multipurpose roles. The HK91 for instance is same length as the M16, so larger than carbine length but still sufficiently maneuverable (and shorter than M1/14 and FAL platforms by ~10%). One option I really like to shoot the 7.62x54r is an Enfield conversion and as such would really fulfill most of 308 scout snipers roles...
-
if your considering a scout type bolt action in .308 you should consider the mossberg mvp patrol takes m14 magazines, im considering one not sure in .308 or .223. i have the predator 18" flutted barrel and surprised these things are accurate takes m16 magazines and great trigger and adjustable mines set about 3.5 lbs.
-
Cz671. Ive actually been considering the same, only both. No hurry, since already have an AR and a 308, but the scout seems handy. I would like them both to have iron sights, since optics can be easily mounted.
-
This has probably been covered before but I'd like to have a VZ-58 in 5.45. Just a thought for some entrepreneur out there.
-
Not at all. I have been an AK fan for some time now, I just admire them for the simplicity in design, function, manufacturing and maintenance. That and the very limited ressources their inventor initially had.
-
Well if I had to grab one rifle, it would be my VZ. However, I could not resist by another "AK". I say "AK", because this PSL is technically not one, but quite similar.
(http://www.allans-armory.com/images/guns/012714CH_0001-web.jpg)
-
Had one for couple years now, PSL will takeover where the 7.62x39 left off I terms of distance shooting the rimmed 54r. Just picked up my SVD Dragunov "Tiger" yesterday....my journey is now complete......hehe
-
Had one for couple years now, PSL will takeover where the 7.62x39 left off I terms of distance shooting the rimmed 54r. Just picked up my SVD Dragunov "Tiger" yesterday....my journey is now complete......hehe
Sweet! Would love to have one of those in the collection. They cost some serious coin though. Post a picture for us to enjoy :)
-
PSL's are based on the RPK's, so they're likely a variant, just built for the more powerful 7.62x54R.
Draganov's are very different internals, short-stroke vs long-stroke piston mechanism of PSLs.
(I've been doing my research on 7.62x54r Rifles).
Actually, my ideal in the caliber would probably be the SVT40 (think a 7.62x54R SKS). They're available in Canada for the $250 range versus the $1k range in the states. Boo. Which is why I'm back to the Zastava PAP for a cheap shooting 7.62x54R rifle (basically the same mechanics of the PSL, but built from new parts instead of questionable parts kits like most the PSLs). But at their price, I'm still thinking the 308 is a better way to go. With a sub 300 SVT40, I could justify a 7.62x54R over a 308 platform...
Regardless to the 308, the mossberg isn't technically a scout with the standard scope mount, which I actually prefer for an at range rifle. I also really like the mag situation. The only thing I don't like is that barrels in 308 are 16.5 and 18.5" respectively (both flash and muzzle blast are significant relative to slightly longer lengths). 18.5 is acceptable, but I really don't care for less than 18" barrels in 308, with 20" preferred. I figure if I'm paying a premium to shoot the better ballistics and energy round and it's not my primary multi-role rifle (which a bolt action really shouldn't be), then why send it out of short barrel and lose 10-20% of velocity of 20 or 22" barrel. Regardless, might go back to a Sako or something like I was originally considering. Or the PTR91 as multi-purpose heavier caliber military sporter instead of a target/hunting/precision rifle. Who knows. Too many options, too many disparate needs, haha.
Thanks fellas.
-
here ya go cyberjad sneak peak
my romy cugir built psl 54c matching numbers, with polymer set
-
I was never the biggest AK47 fan. Don't get me wrong, I do own three. However, I always thought they where kind of crap compared to ARs and other guns. Still I appreciated them for what they are and enjoy the experience and history behind them.
Recently, I began eying the Yugo M70 O-PAP AK47. Really neat guns for an AK, but I just can't get myself to pull the trigger on buying one. Every time I think about how much I love my VZ's, I feel ridiculous purchasing an inferior gun. I am still trying to talk myself into the O-PAP, but the two VZs I recently bought has really killed a bit of desire to buy these heavy, stamped guns with terrible safety's and significantly more recoil - even if they are fun to shoot.
Anyone else feeling ruined for AK's?
Depends what AKs you're talking about. Arsenal SGL 21 and 31. Real Russian on Saiga receivers. Extremely nice to shoot. Cadillacs of AKs.
-
I'd definitely consider the SGL 31 in 5.45x39, but for 7.62x39 I'm staying with the VZ 58.
But like the VZ2008 vs the CSA VZ 58 debate, I'm not sure that the Arsenal value over a Waffen Works necessarily justifies its cost...
Or heck, I think I saw J&G sales selling Saiga's doublestack coverted, tapco trigger, side rail, chrome barrel, etc, for ~$700 -- the same bones as the Arsenal, but minus Arsenal's added barrel threading, muzzle brake, hand guards, stock, and bayonet lug. Arsenal's have been running $1,000-1,200 or more, +$300 to +$500 over the converted Saiga.
Or for $600 you can get a Waffen Works 74 that basically just lacks the Arsenal furniture and custom muzzle break (fwiw, barrel is chrome lined and properly hardened but not hammer forged)...
My main reason for considering the AK 74 is that these days with good CCI 22LR ammo being so scarce and expensive, the AK 74 costs about the same to shoot, is a "real" full power rifle round, and is readily available... Considering the value proposition and the corrosive ammo, that further pushes me away from the platinum Arsenal option. Also, I think the 5.45x39 round and the AK 74 is a great platform for new shooters, provided they're properly trained how to and do clean their weapons after shooting...
-
I am also a convert to the VZ58, everything about it, in my opinion, is much more refined, and as a left hand shooter with a rifles(not handguns or guitar) the safety and top eject are perfect. A UTG combat butt pad helps on the folder, which I also like a lot. I do want to get a better muzzle brake though.
-
Personally I am not an AK fan at all for the reasons I like the VZ. Safety, bolt hold open, weight. So for me this was an easy choice to make for a 7.62X39 rifle.
-
Personally I am not an AK fan at all for the reasons I like the VZ. Safety, bolt hold open, weight. So for me this was an easy choice to make for a 7.62X39 rifle.
*Bingo.
And don't forget the milled receiver. Arsenal is selling their SAM7SF (7.62x39) with forged and milled receiver for ~$1,400. On their promo they talk about improved accuracy, etc, benefits of the milled receiver. And it weights 0.7 lbs/11 oz more than a stamped AK, so no weight savings there like w/ the VZ 58.
http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/SAM7SF-RIFLE-RELEASE.html
Or there's Century's Centurion AK at ~$700.
But IMO, the VZ 2008 is still a far superior value to the Arsenal and most likely superior quality to Centurion (haven't seen one but their VZ 2008s are exceptional so it'll be tough to beat) and the VZ 58/2008 is definitely superior in ergonomics/mechanics of operation.
(I'm leaving Galil's in a separate class as they're 5.56 caliber and can only be made in 7.62 and 5.45 if having a custom build... They're also milled and fine weapons, but Century really botched the ones they made in a big way, custom builds are the best way to go, and parts kits are drying up so cost is $1000+ to custom build and with the 5.56 ammo it's double the cost to feed vs the 5.45).
Ultimately, if I'm spending more than a grand on an AK, I'm going to go w/ a Jim Fuller/Rifle Dynamics AK and will pay the small premium to attend one of his weekend build your own AK classes.
http://rifledynamics.com/collections/ak-builder-class
-
What model UTG butt pad did you get?
Thanks
-
I have two actually.
This one is a softer rubber: http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Model-Combat-Butt-Pad/dp/B002TUSK06
This one is a harder rubber but comes w/ a strap: https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/products_id/2519
Slightly different grip nubs on the back too, so possibly one is for wood stocks and one is for for folders?
I put the strap on the softer rubber one since I decided that the softer provides better recoil absorption but YMMV. First had the softer and decided I wanted to try one with the velcro strap for a cleaner look than the paracord I'd been using...
Update:
Looked at the Apex one, it came in a guntec USA package: http://guntecusa.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_85&product_id=254
The Amazon came in a UTG package, so look like different products.
FSE's page tells you more about it being modeled after a soviet grenade launching buttpad (and theirs might be a third addition, or the same one guntec is repackaging):
http://www.fseusa.com/product_info.php?products_id=339
-
im such a huge AK fan, instead of purchasing the cheap-r$$$ vz 2008 i picked up a romanian AK PAR-1 (pump action rifle) as a matter of fact picked up a number of firearms just recently and the intrest on the vz2008 never was there for me....oh well maybe next time mr. vz2008 ;)
-
Then why are you trolling this forum? There is nothing cheap about th 2008 other then the price.
-
Then why are you trolling this forum? There is nothing cheap about th 2008 other then the price.
You got that right... "Other than price" can you explain why it's so cheap in price? Let's get something clear, I bought my first cz USA vz58 back in 2008, before my first ak47, was a vz2008 owner end up selling it but kept the original wood stock. As stated my previous post, "cheap-r$$$". If I hurt your feelings about the price....I apologize
-
What do you mean next time....there in stock at AIM right now. Supposedly this is the last of the package deals.
-
What do you mean next time....there in stock at AIM right now. Supposedly this is the last of the package deals.
dont think i will ever get a vz2008, cause my Bushmaster ACR will be here soon. oh my bad i could have bought how many vz2008s for the the price of my BM ACR.... :o. no thanks im good with my cz usa vz58 :)
-
Well, the FN SCAR is far superior to the Bushmaster ACR.
Regardless, you'd have been ahead of either to wait for the Galil ACE later this year; or have built your own traditional Galil...
From a value perspective and not knowing what the Galil Ace price to market will be, the Sig 556 is a pretty compelling option too. I prefer a traditional Galil to the Sig 556 but YMMV.
Anyways to use your comparisons -- the ACR is the cheap version of the SCAR... ;D
-
I have two actually.
This one is a softer rubber: http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Model-Combat-Butt-Pad/dp/B002TUSK06
This one is a harder rubber but comes w/ a strap: https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/products_id/2519
Slightly different grip nubs on the back too, so possibly one is for wood stocks and one is for for folders?
I put the strap on the softer rubber one since I decided that the softer provides better recoil absorption but YMMV. First had the softer and decided I wanted to try one with the velcro strap for a cleaner look than the paracord I'd been using...
Update:
Looked at the Apex one, it came in a guntec USA package: http://guntecusa.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_85&product_id=254
The Amazon came in a UTG package, so look like different products.
FSE's page tells you more about it being modeled after a soviet grenade launching buttpad (and theirs might be a third addition, or the same one guntec is repackaging):
http://www.fseusa.com/product_info.php?products_id=339
My VZ2008 is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. My first "assault" rifle! Ha - SUCK IT libs! Great info...Thanks!!
-
Well, the FN SCAR is far superior to the Bushmaster ACR.
Regardless, you'd have been ahead of either to wait for the Galil ACE later this year; or have built your own traditional Galil...
From a value perspective and not knowing what the Galil Ace price to market will be, the Sig 556 is a pretty compelling option too. I prefer a traditional Galil to the Sig 556 but YMMV.
Anyways to use your comparisons -- the ACR is the cheap version of the SCAR... ;D
So if I have a tavor, would you say the aug or fns 2000 is better? I'm assuming you have both a scar and acr do justify your judgement towards the scar? Unless your MAC from the military arms channel who did an honest comparison between the two I find your judgement towards the scar eh....well. Put up a video to compare to MAC's.
So your comparison equates to---ACR=vz2008 is the cheap version of the SCAR= csa/czechpoint vz58... ;)
-
Keep things civil.................or my darkside comes out!
(http://img6.bdbphotos.com/images/orig/7/v/7vj5dk2soojav75o.jpg)
-
Yeah seriously!
-
Yeah seriously!
Apparently you did not get the memo "do not take seriously"....if you did oh well, this was just all in good fun because no firearm is perfect
-
So your comparison equates to---ACR=vz2008 is the cheap version of the SCAR= csa/czechpoint vz58... ;)
Yep, accordingly to your logic.
I have not shot either, but the consensus of those who have is resoundingly pro SCAR and its +15-20% pricetag over the ACR. As much polymer as there is on these "modern" rifles really only makes sense for those who carry a rifle day to day; primary advantage is reduced manufacturing costs and weight savings... Great for operators. Not so great for those of us who want to only buy once...
Where I'm coming from -- I drive a 22 year old Toyota Pickup (true American Hilux) and almost everything functional plastic/rubber I've had to replaced due to becoming brittle and failing with age or stuff on the dash and whatnot breaking when I move them/need to work behind them (unless I'm super careful -- and I run 303 aerospace protectorants on all the plastics on my rig too w/ sunshade up all the time not driving; at just over 150k miles don't drive it a lot of miles), other than plastics/rubber the second most replaced stuff are electronics -- when I purchase a firearm, I want something that'll outlive me (I'm 30) and can't imagine that any of these modern polymer weapons would do so. The one polymer weapon I'm looking at is the Archangel 10/22 g36 aftermarket stock/furniture setup -- for all intents a disposable firearm... Polymer mags I don't mind b/c they're for all intents disposable anyways, but polymer weapons -- no thanks.
As far as bullpups, I only find they're preferable to standard configuration rifles in CQB/urban conflict scenarios for all the reasons mentioned here: http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-bullpups-are-persistently-bad-idea.html
If I need compact, I think it's preferable to reach for a grip-based mag pistol carbine like the Keltec Sub 2k that are more compact than most short barreled rifle configurations, excepting bullpups, deliver almost the same energy as equivalent length SBRs, and have heavier cartridges designed that are designed for low-speed performance... For civilian me, it works, so I haven't paid any attention to the Tavor.
Was recently looking at possibly building a microgalil, but decided to go w/ an SAR instead. That research/thought process here: http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?74783-Micro-Galil-Utility-amp-Purposes
Quickly, here are the length comparisons.
VZ2008 (16.1" barrel) - 35" long open
VZ58 (15.4" barrel) - 33.3" long open
Tavor full (18" barrel) - 28.5" long
Tavor compact (15" barrel) - 25.2" long
Keltec Sub 2k (16" barrel) - 29.5" long open
Microgalil (8" barrel) - 27.8" long open
Galil SAR (13" barrel) - 33.5" long open
Galil AR/ARM (18" barrel) - 38.5" long open
M4 military (14.5" barrel) - 33" long stock extended, 29.75" stock retracted
Bushmaster M4 (16" barrel) - 35" long stock extended, 31.5" stock retracted
M1 carbine (18" barrel) - 35.6" long
And if money were no object, which it is for me, the $900+ Uzi would be a strong contender to the Keltec for a pistol-based carbine role -- and would win out for me over the aluminum Keltec Sub9 which cost about the same as any non-Century Uzi.
The add'l high points of discussion are muzzle blast/flash/concussion and point blank energy of cost-effective commercial loading. For indoors, the pistol carbine wins out over an SBR and bullpups would likely win on the sum of the merits if taken into consideration.
But ultimately, I found your diversion of the thread preposterous and was trying to add some similarly preposterous humor to the mix. Apologies to the admin for the referee. Was intended in good fun. Won't add any further discussion here. Thanks!
-
Apparently you did not get the memo "do not take seriously"....if you did oh well, this was just all in good fun because no firearm is perfect
I am not amused! >:(
Back on topic!
-
I have two actually.
This one is a softer rubber: http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Model-Combat-Butt-Pad/dp/B002TUSK06
This one is a harder rubber but comes w/ a strap: https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/products_id/2519
Slightly different grip nubs on the back too, so possibly one is for wood stocks and one is for for folders?
I put the strap on the softer rubber one since I decided that the softer provides better recoil absorption but YMMV. First had the softer and decided I wanted to try one with the velcro strap for a cleaner look than the paracord I'd been using...
Update:
Looked at the Apex one, it came in a guntec USA package: http://guntecusa.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_85&product_id=254
The Amazon came in a UTG package, so look like different products.
FSE's page tells you more about it being modeled after a soviet grenade launching buttpad (and theirs might be a third addition, or the same one guntec is repackaging):
http://www.fseusa.com/product_info.php?products_id=339
(http://www.zahal.org/files/images/products/CSA/vz_butt_pad_1.jpg)
I got one of the buttpads like Zahal is selling on ebay (here is an example: http://www.zahal.org/products/butt-stock-pad-for-original-vz-58-folding-stock?path_parent=153451 )
Basically, it's cheap somewhat soft plastic like bargain brand tupperware lids. Maybe adds 1/8-1/4" to the length of pull. Other than the small nubs for grip, I really don't see the point. It allows the stock to fold and looks more substantial in pics, but save your $.
My advice is to go w/ the Apex one above for the folding stock. Higher quality, better made, and cushions recoil but w/o all the bounce of the softer one. I'd recommend only running the softer UTG one on your fixed stocks as the Apex one with a more scalloped stock attachment hole and being denser rubber is less likely to fit.