The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: Skookum on February 02, 2014, 05:03:08 AM
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Wasn't 02-01-14 the release date?
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The Remington guy on the Shot Show video said mid-February.
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I'll be watching. It's being said Cheaper Than Dirt may have them soon ($420-ish) .
If you see any for sale, let us know.
THEN finding EDC holsters and extra mags becomes the task.
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I received an e-mail from Cheaper Than Dirt yesterday, which reminded me. Was the release date moved back? I suspect they were tweaking the final design, given that MSRP increased by $31, and none were available to shoot at SHOT Show. I understand holsters already exist.
I look forward to hearing what real consumers think. A few writers have dissed the R51, but I've yet to read what I regard as a valid significant criticism.
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Remington is out in force at the Great American Outdoors Show this weekend through next Sunday in Harrisburg, PA. I was there today, and got a chance to handle one. They had more than a couple dozen for people to handle, and it's clear they are out to sell these babies! First impressions are that the slide racks very easily, the only external safety is the one on the grip handle, the trigger is really (extremely) nice, overall it's a bit larger than I expected but not unreasonable, and it is very well balanced. Now I want to shoot one, as the action design is unique and could potentially be very accurate with very little recoil.
Remington reps were really showing how easy the slide could be racked and directly comparing to other pistols such as Glocks and M&Ps. They were stating that women will have a much easier time manipulating the slide, as they claim there are many competitors that aren't so easy in this department. I agree, and it appears this gun will appeal to all. Note that the rear sight was designed with a 90 degree angle facing the front sight to assist in one handed racking the slide against any corner surface. Once there are choices in holsters, this will be very easy to conceal.
According to the Remington reps at the show, the R51 will have an MSRP of $420 and be available at the end of February. If it's true to form, the R51 should be available for just under $400 at certain retailers. While I currently use the Shield for CC during warmer months, I am very intrigued by this model. It just feels right! It's likely that a purchase of the R51 will end up going to either my wife or daughter once they get a hold of it. Hmmmmm, may need two . . .
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GRB5111, I just read your second paragraph to my wife. Her comment "Oh NICE!" She and my buddies wife have always had the same complaint. Cant rack it..... I'll have to check one out.
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Remington reps were really showing how easy the slide could be racked and directly comparing to other pistols such as Glocks and M&Ps. They were stating that women will have a much easier time manipulating the slide, as they claim there are many competitors that aren't so easy in this department.
I think CTD's piece on the R51 mentioned this yesterday, which is the first mention of this feature I recall. Many will appreciate this.
Good to hear you say the trigger is nice. One writer griped about it having a long, gritty pull; but, for crying out loud, it's SAO and most of its competitors are DAO with triggers reported as horrid.
It looks like Remington put a lot of thought into it.
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One writer griped about it having a long, gritty pull; but, for crying out loud, it's SAO and most of its competitors are DAO with triggers reported as horrid.
It looks like Remington put a lot of thought into it.
The several I handled today had very good triggers with a somewhat detectable and short reset. Not sure where "long and gritty pull" came from, but I had no misgivings on the ones I tried and when the count goes up to a few hundred rounds, I'm guessing it's going to be real smooth.
GRB5111, I just read your second paragraph to my wife. Her comment "Oh NICE!" She and my buddies wife have always had the same complaint. Cant rack it..... I'll have to check one out.
That was the first thing that struck me today were the comments from couples trying the R51 about the ease of working the slide. Many of the women trying the R51 today made the same comment, and this was after I visited the booth on a few separate occasions. Remington had a woman rep who was demonstrating the features, and she made a point of this during each session. The other element that struck me was the thin, single stack grip and frame. It's very concealable, yet easy to get a good purchase on the grips. I'm going to be curious about this pistol once it's been on the market for a while. I'm hoping it turns out to be rugged and reliable, as everything else about this pistol seems to be so well done.
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According to this article, there are already a few company's making holsters for the 51 and at the bottom they list some projected prices for different factory grips and replacement mags. ;)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/01/remington-announces-r-51-pistol/
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Thanks Country, I missed the mag/grips prices.
Check the width:
Stats Weight 20 oz
Width .96
Length 6.6+ inches
Height 4.5 inches
Barrel length 3.4
Internal Hammer
SA -
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I've never owned a pistol without an external hammer but I might have to make an exception for the 51. ;)
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I believe the length of the R51 is actually 6.875 in. ? oops! Make that 6.625 in.
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I've never owned a pistol without an external hammer but I might have to make an exception for the 51. ;)
ditto
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I believe the length of the R51 is actually 6.875 in. ? oops! Make that 6.625 in.
yup, I believe OAL is 6 5/8" (6.625 in.) ...I found this nice overlay for those interested in size comparisons:
http://www.guns.com/2014/02/07/updated-remington-r51-size-comparison-chart/ (http://www.guns.com/2014/02/07/updated-remington-r51-size-comparison-chart/)
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I did some measurements on my Kahr K9 and found the R51 was pretty much identical except the length of pull and slide is a tad longer in the Remington.
I'll probably sell the Kahr and get one so I can shoot lead out of it, plus videos show the recoil is about like a 5.7 if you have good control.
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found some nice articles about the R51 today...the reassembly seems very easy to screw up (1/16" is the difference between a failure mid-string) and the kicker: a function-check won't alarm you to an improper reassembly.
read more:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/foghorn/gun-review-remington-r51/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/foghorn/gun-review-remington-r51/)
size comparison article:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/foghorn/remington-r51-comparison/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/foghorn/remington-r51-comparison/)
I'd be interested to see if anyone else writes about this. If anyone here picks one up, please let us know your thoughts...
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Admittedly disappointing.
Still hopeful, Rem. will iron out any reassembly reliability issue. If this characteristic "comes to light" sooner rather than later, it'll get addressed sooner.
I'm one of the "it's gotta be metal" guys who wants ANY pistol to be able to reach out and touch someone at moderate distances, not just 7yds or less.
My choice now is a very reliable Sig 239. The R-51 was a smaller, but still comparable option with a better trigger---I had hoped.
Still to be determined.
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Admittedly disappointing.
Still hopeful,
Still to be determined.
+1 :'( :-\
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What....one whinny review out of how many? Don't tell me he hurt his wittle hand....ahhhhhh. As for reassembly, heck, pay attention. But having said that, there will still be some that will hurt their wittle hands as well as those that will flub up the reassembly.
Personally, I like the looks of the R51 and all the other reviews I've read were positive. And NONE of those men complained about any pain in their hands, even after hundreds of rounds.
I've got one ordered.
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If anyone here picks one up, please let us know your thoughts...
I did and handled the R51 extensively last week. See Replies #4 and #7 earlier in this thread. I have nothing but positive things to say after racking the slide and dry firing this gun. I could, in fact, easily detect the reset. That and 90 cents will get you a cup of coffee, however, as none of those actions gives a realistic impression of the pistol's ultimate performance, handling and overall reliability and quality. I'm not inclined to put much weight in a single magazine review when the pistol has yet to be released. Like any newly released firearm, it bears watching and hearing from a number of people who've had a chance to wring it out under a variety of conditions.
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I feel the same way, but am interested in hearing about the validity of the reassembly comments after field stripping it.
I can manage a MKII and a Sig 2022, so I doubt any BIG problem, but don't like the idea it "may" not let you know if you screw up.
Watching with interest. I need confidence in the pistol.
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Like any newly released firearm, it bears watching and hearing from a number of people who've had a chance to wring it out under a variety of conditions.
+1
I'd trust reviews from actual owners who spent their own money and put it in use through a variety of conditions too. Reports from actual users/owners I'd take any day of the week over magazine or blog reviews.
Magazines are too cozy with manufacturers (ad revenue) and bloggers are trying to draw more page views/clicks (again, ad revenue)...
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I checked at the nearby military BX gun store today. He said they can backorder only when their "supplier" has them in stock. He was very familiar with the R-51---seems others have shown interest. He doesn't know what the price will be.
If they are $420 (OR LESS) with no tax, no shipping, that would be good OTD.
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You CAN "Backorder" one NOW from KYGun for "less" than $400.
:o
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You CAN "Backorder" one NOW from KYGun for "less" than $400.
:o
http://www.kygunco.com/remington-r51-9mmp-semi-auto-handgun-71847 (http://www.kygunco.com/remington-r51-9mmp-semi-auto-handgun-71847)
That is probably as good a price as we are likely to see for a while. I only wish the timing was better, between CGW upgrades on my polished and the .40 75B I have on layaway I'm stretched too thin as it is else I'd be all over that. Hopefully that price won't change much for a while.
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ARA "March" digital Rifleman magazine came out today, and zero mention of the R-51. ???
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After watching the recall of the Shield and Xds.. I think I will wait at least a year or so before I commit to buying one.. :o
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Found one at my LGS today priced at $419 + tax. It looked nice, felt clunky and loose with lots of rattle. If I didn't know the barrel was fixed (it is right?) I would have sworn it moved. Didn't seem to point very naturally for me either. I was really underwhelmed with it.
On the other hand, I had just left CZ Custom after checking out the Valor & V-Bob and honestly any standard production gun would have seemed a bit shoddy after that.
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I too found one today at a Boise LGS. The price was $419.
My initial thoughts (from handling only) were:
- gun was bigger than I thought
- trigger had no feel to the reset
Sancho
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Re the thread title: " NOPE, I bought it today".
I shot a match this morning and on the way out through the shop, I found they had just recieved a Remington R-51. I had asked about it previously, and the lady who works there (also shoots USPSA) said "I'll go get the paperwork". I said I wanted to just Look, touchy feely and think this over a bit first---she smiled.
Any way, I tried the trigger etc etc. The slide cycling felt a little harsh until I realized it's different than a tilt bbl pistol. It wasn't hard to cycle, but had three distinct stages in the pull---like you were pulling it over "humps'. Exterior finish was smooth and even. and what I could see of the internals looked like it was plastered with a mixture of thin white grease and nasty used oil. I thought about it and a few friends jabbed at me a little. I bought it and walked away with my new 1918 pistol action Remington. :o
At home, Ifollowed the instructions for the field strip. IT WAS NOT INTUITIVE to this old guy, but I finally "sort of" realized what was needed and got it apart. Everything inside was painted/caked with nasty lubes. 1/2 can of a spray brake cleaner later, I got a good look at most of the internals. The bbl is stainless and very smooth but not polished to a high shine. The frame/rails are A/C aluminum and waay smoother than the typical CZ---like cnc work. The locking block/firing pin and extractor housing (all one assembly) was the roughest part, but not bad at all---no voids or surface irregularities.
I relubed the parts liberally generally following Remingtons suggestions (Spray it all down with Rem-oil). I used Militec 1 in and on the bbl where the recoil spring rides and Mobil 1 everywhere else. The recoil spring has a 1" +/- metal cap on the moveable end with a good bit of compression force. I will be using some good light grease on the aluminum rails.
Reassembly involved a reversal of the takedown procedures "mostly" and wasn't bad. I "think" the next field strip will go about as fast as my CZs.
I know they will after two or three more practices. No tools were required to field strip.
I did experience one of the complaints that have been published. If you install the slide lock (essentilly the same as a CZ 75) with the wrong marking lined up, the gun goes back together and functions, BUT the slide locks back after EVERY slide cycle. The slide release also felt "stiffer/harder" to depress. I re-did the slide release install using the correct frame mark and all was well again.
I can see how big hands could be pinched by the slide travel. MAN, this pistol has a low bore axis. With a firm into-the-beavertail high grip, the slide is travelling "just" above the web of your hand--literally. I like it.
Haven't shot it yet. WILL do tomorrow or Tuesday, and report what I experience.
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Congrats on your purchase!
Enjoy.
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Looking forward to your range report.
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Glad you got it 1SOW. I do like the sound of that low bore axis.
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Just one last pre-shoot comment. This pistol is LIGHT compared to my Sig 239. The R51 is listed at 20 ozs while Sig is listed at 30+ ozs. With a generic cheapy holster, it feels waaay lighter and considerably thinner on or in the waistband. Total Length is not far from the same, but the bbl on the R-51 is also much smaller.
P.S. I won TWO bug stages in our fun shoot today using the Sig. Sure hope this thing shoots as well. ;D
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Congrats, can't wait to hear your report.
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1SOW,
The R-51 has a distinct disadvantage. You are going to be comparing it to a P239.
However, if you end up liking the R-51, it will convince me it must be REALLY good. ;D
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Finally, a guinea pig steps up to the plate. I look forward to hearing how it shoots.
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I set up two targets, one at 7yds and one at 10 yards with multiple small targets on each.
I brought 133PF 124gr JHP bullet loads and 1165 fps 124hbrn loads to test the pistol.
I shot at the 7yd target first---multiple 2" red stick-on bulls.
The group was within 2" , but two-three inches to the right. I looked at the sights and found:
Problem #1. The rear site was skewed right maybe 1/8" overhanging the slide. One light tap with the brass rod and the slide moved too far left. I tapped it back approx. center and shot again. Hit the two inch bulls with a shot or two., and the sight moved.
I could push the dovetail sight 1/4" with thumb pressure.
I shot some more (checking the rear sight often) and my trigger finger was getting sore on the pad and on the bottom side.
Problem #2 - the grip safety. The grip safety is NOT smooth like on a 1911. After quite a bit of force, it "pops" (AUDIBLY) into the frame.
If your grip moves/relaxes it will come back out just a little bit. The trigger pull weight seems to increase/rub as the safety retracts until finally, it won't fire.
The pistol actually has a long reach to the trigger (as long or longer than a CZ 75B in DA). I have a short fat trigger finger. This made a Perfect Storm for trouble with the pull. I had to consciously squeeze hard 100% of the time shooting to keep the safety disengaged. This screwed up my trigger press. After 20-30 shots my finger needed a rest.
The trigger pull is very heavy (pure guess = 10+# and very rough) when it's not carefully pressed exactly stright back. The left side of the black trigger showed the finish worn off to shiny metal. It is very rough in the pull. The trigger guard is small---just slightly bigger than my trigger finger. As the trigger was pulled the bottom of my finger rubbed the trigger guard
The grip safety strap sticks up past the grip surface and moves easily back to a l m o s t flush with the frame as the slack takes up, THEN it takes a firm press to disengage the safety with a "POP". There is zero extra safety thickness to ensure it remains off when gripped. Two layers of grip tape on that strap, might make it easier to shoot. I don't know.
I shot about 60-70 rds, resting my hand and trigger finger periodically. The gun shoots to point of aim at 10 yards---not bad at all. Standing unsupported with two hands and being careful, I could hit inside 2" x 2" tape at 10 yards---until the rear sight moved.
Epic part B>
1. Ejections were straight right from the ejection port and landed 6-12 feet away depending on which load was being fired.
2. The pistol points fine. The three dot sights are very distinct and easy to use. I used the TOP of the sights and hit -1" from POA at these distances.
3. The two 7-rd magazines ran smoothly and dropped fine.
4. Ambidextrous mag releases: Right side hard to depress. Left side smooth.
5. Muzzle flip was not bad at all. I shot strong hand and weakhand with both loads with good hits. I did get two instances of "limp-wrist" where one case jammed and another just "fell" out of the port. All likely my fault being used to heavier weight pistols almost impossible to limp-wrist.
I still like the Pedersen action and found it very functional in this short experience.
I think the trigger and safety both need work. If the grip safety was smoother and more reliable and the trigger was made to pull smoothly at 6#, I would like the pistol. As-is, I'm not happy.
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Sorry to hear 1SOW. Why on earth would Remington release a firearm before they at least made sure the rear sights don't move :o This isn't the first time I read about that happening, but thought maybe it was just a fluke. Then the heavy trigger pull???? They bill it as a single action trigger but what you witnessed sounds far from it. From the sounds of your review, and others on the web, it's basically a good design. They just didn't put enough thought and care into it. Kinda makes you wonder who's in charge of their quality control on the R51, and how much input they have on their other firearms.
Thank-you for being the guinea pig and taking the time to let us know your thoughts.
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The rear sight being loose wasn't a deal-breaker---easy to remedy. I tried to fire a full 7 rd mag in rapid fire and physically couldn't do it. The amount of force it took to hold the safety off and still be able to flex my trigger finger fast was more than I could do. Now someone with a normal length/longer trigger finger length likely could mange it. Note: I can do this easily with three models of full size CZ 75 DA/SA triggers and a Sig DA/SA---all with first pull being DA. My wife tried the trigger in the kitchen and had trouble pulling the trigger in dry fire. Her comment: "My God!"
I wouldn't recommend this pistol. The two main issues are bad in an otherwise pretty neat pistol.
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1SOW,
Your experience is mirrored by what the Military Arms Channel on Youtube has seen with the first batch of guns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ65wbjq6t0
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Sounds like you have a perfect candidate for a return 1sow. Not impressed with Remington on their QC. One of the first videos I watched on the R51 was the Gunblast video. He seemed impressed with his gun. To bad Remington seems to want to use customers as their QC, and give themselves a bad rap. Its going to cost them unnecessary money and headaches (lost guns, extra work, reputation, etc.). Hopefully they stop shipping, and get their act together. Sounds like they have a potentially great product on their hands, yet they are willing to roll the dice, and send us (their Bread and Butter) a product that you might expect from China. Here is to hoping they get some pride in what they deliver.
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Thanks for the post 1SOW. You can't beat an honest review.
I wonder if Remington will be tweaking the grip safety, etc. I sure wanted to like it.
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Great review 1SOW! Was going to try and find one to test at the range but after your review I'm not going to waste my time.
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Valuable information for many of us who've been waiting for the release of this pistol. I was hoping they'd do something special with the R51, as I still have Remington loyalty from past experiences. As others have stated, I can't believe they would issue a firearm with this lack of quality control. It's disappointing, as I had a Remington 1100 shotgun for years that was a warrior taking much abuse in the fields, woods, islands and marshes around salt water and mud with with no problems, and I still have an 870 that is dependable to this day. I've heard about problems with the 1187s and some of their newer shotguns, so I've moved on to Beretta and haven't looked back. Remington should be proud of its American made products, but experiences like this mean there are big problems ahead if nothing is done. I sincerely hope they stop production to smooth out this pistol and issue an invitation to owners to fix the ones they've sold to date. These are the only reasonable alternatives.
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The real frustration for "me", is I still believe this is a good basic design that just needs grunt work to run smoothly. ---or not. :-\
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1SOW,
Sorry about your experience but the question is, are you going to do the 'grunt work' or send it back to Remington?
Fixing everything that's wrong with it yourself (or paying a smith to do it) seems to be what Remington/Freedom Arms/Cerberus/Whatever venture capitol group that owns them now is counting on you doing... Or they'll take it back and try to fix it, a couple times if necessary, on a one-gun-at-a-time basis, rather than correcting the real issues with all the guns, the design, manufacturing process, or QC. Either way, they made the initial sale and have your money; and are banking on you to quietly cost them as little of their profit as possible, and other buyers who can't tell a good gun from a bad one to pay their money and ignorantly live with the gun's problems.
I've seen some real garbage come from Remington in recent years, from ammunition to top of the line rifles, and let's not even get into what they've done with Marlin since taking them over. It's been years now that people have been complaining about these issues, and it's apparently not making a difference. They sure hyped up the new R51, but if they can't even get it right for it's big debut, it appears they're still sticking to the same business plan; just sell it, and let the buyer beware.
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I early-on contacted Remington warranty about the loose sight and other problems and was given a contact number. They also said I would be contacted "soon". It must not be "soon" yet.
The impression I get on the Remington web site, is that the company has no spare or aftermarket parts available yet. The site barely even references the R-51. I was told by email no extra mags have been made yet. The R51 isn't even listed in the handgun parts section.
:P
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;D ;D
I just had to pass this on.
I emailed today giving my tickett number and requesting a response to include how Remington will handle the problems. I just got another response with a new ticket number saying "(someone) will be in touch soon."
;D ;D ::)
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Here's hoping you get a satisfactory solution from them.
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It will be interesting to hear what they have to say. ???
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They emailed today and asked for all the ID info for the pistol and me, and said they would send a mailing label.
I'm good with that.
P.S. the pistol was already registered with Remington's warranty section with ALL and much more data than they asked for, but that's simply an uncomfortable example of right hand vs left hand disorganization. ::)
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Hope they straighten it up for you. The good reviews were GOOD.
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Update:
I phoned Remington and talked to the service/repair representative.
He said he didn't know why there was no response, took all the data down again, is "sending" a mailing labelled box to INSERT PISTOL and MAIL.
I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist.I'm an optimist.
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Hang in there 1SOW.
Good things come to those who wait.
Well usually......sometimes..........I hope.
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Thanks Towns, I can use some "Positive Vibes" to win this battle. ;)
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Seriously 1SOW,
I'm looking forward to you getting the R51 in good working order.
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1SOW, I hope your concerns and problems with the pistol get settled soon. I just wish the manufacturers would iron out the bugs before releasing them, like the NANO(very problematic). I'm still very hesitant about the NANO, sure Beretta fixes the problems but I have read more negatives than positives.
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Thanks guys. I "WANT" this pistol to run. I like it. :D I'll update Remington's actions .
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Thanks for keeping us posted 1SOW. I hope they make everything right.
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Honest review. From what I've read so far, I'm pretty disappointed with the performance of this firearm. I don't think it's the design that is the problem. I think it's Big Green.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTzS4sQfn4U
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Wow, just wow; I would be very nervous shooting that gun after all that...
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Unbelievable. Very sorry to hear this.
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I can't believe I watched the whole thing!
Oh well, on to the next item on my want list.
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Honest review. From what I've read so far, I'm pretty disappointed with the performance of this firearm. I don't think it's the design that is the problem. I think it's Big Green.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTzS4sQfn4U
Remington sent me a UPS Next Day Air Return label and Packaging that I sent out yesterday.
My R-51 fired 50 rds and had the stiffness , rear sight and hard to engage grip safety problems mentioned in the video. Mine ALSO had a serious trigger Pull problem associated with the large play also mentioned in this video.
Seeing the video does NOT insprire any confidence that Remington will resolve the issues with my pistol.
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Remington sent me a UPS Next Day Air Return label and Packaging that I sent out yesterday.
My R-51 fired 50 rds and had the stiffness , rear sight and hard to engage grip safety problems mentioned in the video. Mine ALSO had a serious trigger Pull problem associated with the large play also mentioned in this video.
Seeing the video does NOT insprire any confidence that Remington will resolve the issues with my pistol.
I'm sure Remington will take care of you, if not they may be able to give you a refund.
It doesn't seem like that is the only video of people having problems with the gun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ZM3KeHiGg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEAr9TJ51M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TSZmkJMBBk
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To quote "Oddball":
i don't need any negative vibeswaves man!"
;D ;D
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I have read threads of two, maybe it was one (?), that actually worked as advertised.
I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist!
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To quote "Oddball": i don't need any negative vibes man!"
;D ;D
Sorry for being "Moriarty!"
Well, since I've been posting so many videos links...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ
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To quote "Oddball": i don't need any negative vibes man!"
;D ;D
Sorry for being "Moriarty!"
Well, since I've been posting so many videos links...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ
Great scene James ;D
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I can hear Hank Junior singing while the 75mm blasts away...
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I had one of these in the shop the other day ,saying I was not impressed is putting it very mildly . The trigger system in my opinion just plain sucks, ergos not bad -how hard it is to rack -ridiculous! for $400 you could get a much better handgun initially I was interested in one of these,but not after handling it. I will stick to a Cz or related clone compact that hold more ammo.
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Brian, sure can't argue about your opinion based of the manufacturing screw-ups, to say the least; BUT suppose the slide was easy to rack, the trigger was smooth and centered and the grip safety worked as smoothly as a decent 1911. The ergos, and simplicity of the pistol is really very very good. It DOES shoot well in spite of the factory screw-ups.
I'm SURE no gunsmith, but all the problems LOOK fixable. Most look fixable using stones, carborundum paper, dremel polishing and some patience. It does need a real trigger and pin that fits the pistol. It does need less friction/spring resistance engaging the grip safety. The moving locking block need smothing, dehorning and polishing.
The sight issues are stupid simple to fix. AS cut, Best in my opinion would be Two bored and threaded holes + hex screws on the already dead flat surface of the rear sight = good-to-go. The stamped out sear needs to be at least smoothed/polished, but best replaced with a machined part.
The FACT that there are ZERO spare parts or even mags available is beyond belief.
I actually want this pistol to run. I would even be willing to PAY for a real custom trigger if they would fix all the rest of the issues. I guess that makes me stupid, but if this pistol actually ran "as advertised" it would be a pleasure to own and shoot.
I acted as an RO today at a match, where two guys used subcompact 9mms with 6 rd and 7rd mags. They BOTH malfunctioned and were very hard to clear at least twice during a 50 rd match. When they shot, neither could hit crap with these pistols. Even with all the issues, I could easily shoot decent groups at 10 yards using hot OR light loads with the R51. The design makes it very "shootable". The hardware sucks, but is fixable---I hope. :(
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ISOW I actually liked the design I just was not impressed with the actual handgun. It is a nice very ergonomic handgun, many of the reviewers {Not Remington} touted it as having a 1911 style and feel in the trigger which is no where near the case. Fortunately I am the skeptical type as much as I wanted to just buy one I did not I waited until one of my customers bought one and then carefully examined it. I am not impressed for a MSRP of $419.00 . The slide racking issue will mainly effect female and older male shooters who do no have the strength to manipulate that slide.
For me and that's just me I would not waste my money on this particular pistol. This design needs some serious refinement. I think they rushed this to the market place before really wringing this pistol out just to make a buck. This happens with a lot of the firearms manufacturers not just Remington. Now their R1 1911 series is a whole different story ,their base guns are dam good for the money.
I must also state that I am biased against all single stack handguns and 5 to eight shot revolvers - plain and simple 5 to 8 rounds is not enough capacity for an actual encounter and it may be over before you get to reload. My experience is based on an actual encounter that I had 2 and 1/2 years ago with three jackass's not one. I was a single stack carry guy ,but no more after that day. It happened extremely fast fortunately turned out well for me. My pistol had six shots in it and if they pressed the incident because they were close I probably would not have got them without a reload,they may have got me and killed me with my own pistol. It started and was over in 10 to 15 seconds ,but it seemed like forever till they backed down and fled.I sold all my single stack handguns after that day. The smallest that I carry now is my Sar B6 poly with 13 rounds mag capacity and the 14 th in the chamber with two spare mags. I went 9mm so I could increase mag capacity.
For me a carry pistol must now meet different standards higher mag capacity, easy to use , combat accuracy, and ergonomic and most important absolutely reliable -must go bang at all times. I simply will not stake my life on a single stack design so I am biased on small capacity handguns. If it was the only gun I had I would have to make due til I got something better. For me this would be a back gun period to my main carry gun.
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I definitely understand your position.
I have my SIG which I have 100% confidence in as my primary carry. This little pistol would have suited my preferences in the summer and to ploay "gun games" with. Oh well, win most, loose some. Maybe a miracle will happen from Remington. I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist. :-\ ;)
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Sure hope they take care of you. I believe their gun has potential.....if Remington does their part. Shame on them if they don't.
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Wasn't 02-01-14 the release date?
Not yesterday. Not today. And not tomorrow.
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I checked one of these out yesterday at Gander Mountain. I've been planning on buying one as soon as they were available based on the hype.
After handling it yesterday; Slide was stiff, ratchety and inconsistent. It didn't feel like it went into battery with the same force each time. (That was with no ammo) The hand safety was weird and noisy but manageable. Trigger was terrible (But I shoot a CZSP01 and Witness Limited pistols mostly.) Also, the trigger looked very cheap. I also had trouble with the slide stop. It had to be held very firmly for the magazine to drop free on it own weight. The buttons were very firm. Not a deal breaker but I like 'em easy.
Waiting for a positive review but I'll probably pass on this one.
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Handled several at the Remington booth at the NRA show this weekend.
Gritty, inconsistent, terrible trigger. Slide felt ratchety and gritty. Could not reliably engage the grip safety (or maintain it depressed in a two-hand grip).
If those are their demo models, no thanks.
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Found this:
More info from the NRA meetings posted by Electriclyde on the Remington Owners Forum:
I stopped by the Remington booth today at the NRA convention in Indy. Had an interesting conversation with a young man who is a product manager for Remington.
They are awaiting manufacture of new, slightly different breechblocks, which will also have some sort of coating on them for aiding in reduced wear and better retention of lubrication. He also said that those guns with a loose rear sight issue will have the slides replaced. He claims that the dovetails on the slides were improperly cut. He could not/would not commit to a timeline for the completion of the new parts. He also said that the warranty on the gun would start over when they were repaired.
They did have about 10 R51's on display, some with Crimson Trace Lasers on them. I racked the slide on several of the guns, and found some to be difficult, and some to be VERY easy!?!?!?
Some guys on another forum, are dismantling and trying to figure out all the problems with the pistol. They did find the chamber is extremely tight and many bullets used in common SD ammo wouldn't clear the leade/rifling. No, not similar to the CZ. They found the chamber rough, slightly oval and looked cut in three "steps". One reemed a chamber to SAAMI specs and had better feed with no out of battery issues.
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1SOW have you heard anything from Remington since you've sent your pistol in?
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I am really hoping that Remington will get this figured out.
I had the chance to fire 20 rounds through one at a local store's open house & manufacturer shoot back in March. I like the way it felt and functioned, but the production models aren't meeting the same standards.
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The sales guy at Gander Mountain went and got a different one from the one in the case. It felt as bad as the first one I checked out a couple weeks ago. He called them, "junk." I won't go that far but it's off my want list.
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I talked with a sales rep at the local Bass Pro yesterday... he told me one of the guys that works there part time also works at Para as a gunsmith and that they are working with Remington on trigger improvements... I have yet to get hands on with an R51 but the guy at BPS compared the trigger to that of a BB gun o_O
Once Remington gets these initial troubles worked out I will be very interested in picking one up.
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I finally got a response from Remington.
"Sorry ....etc., etc.. We expect to return your pistol within three weeks."
If it comes back with the slide dovetails cut properly, trigger fixed and it'll shoot "reliably", I'll be more optimistic about it.
Some other work including a little smoothing/polishing might improve the feel and reliability.
I fully intend to shoot the heck out of it at the first opportunity---if my hand and trigger finger isn't punished so badly I can't do it. :(.
I still want this pistol to run. Everything I've seen and read that's wrong with it could be fixed.
Fingers crossed.
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Good luck! Its a neat pistol will be looking forward to hearing how it shoots once you get it back.
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Glad they got back too you. I'm still amazed that the R51 made it through Q.C.
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Does anyone think that a gun with this much bad press can ever recover, even if they finally fix it?
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I just hope they get it right. Seems like a good gun if they do their part. If they get the bugs out I would like one myself.
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Does anyone think that a gun with this much bad press can ever recover, even if they finally fix it?
Not with me at this point. I've already sought out different carry options.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/549/medium/PT111_PT709.jpg)
Taurus PT-111 and PT709, both in 9mm.
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Does anyone think that a gun with this much bad press can ever recover, even if they finally fix it?
Not with me at this point. I've already sought out different carry options.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/549/medium/PT111_PT709.jpg)
Taurus PT-111 and PT709, both in 9mm.
I've reverted back to my P239 which is a totally reliable pistol.
I do want the R51 to operate at its potential. The size, weight, carry and shooting FEEL was really nice. It also shot very very well at 10 yards, when I could get the trigger to function. ::)
I've been looking at the list of found problems on another forum while seriously considering trying to fix those that Remington/Cerebus doesn't repair:
1. A real trigger and pin that actually fits 2. Reaming the chamber to SAAMI specs 3. Smoothing and polishing everything that moves/rubs 4. "Finding" a way to make the grip safety engagement smoother and more postive. Both of the magazines functioned well, unlike some other owner experiences noted.
May even discuss #1 and #4 with another forum member who might be interested in doing some "tinkering". ;D
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I've reverted back to my P239 which is a totally reliable pistol.
Exactly what I've done with my Taurus PT111 and PT709. I know they work!
Good luck fixing your Remington R51, though. I like the ergonomics of the basic design, it just needs a good bit of refinement.
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Sounds like the approach that Harley-Davidson buyers took during the AMF years. Those who knew motorcycles knew the bike would be FUBAR as delivered but they bought them anyway, and then took them apart and fixed everything that was wrong. Those who didn't know motorcycles where blissfully ignorant and thought they were supposed to shake themselves apart, douse your legs with hot oil, require an overhaul every ten thousand miles and refuse to start when not cuddled and kept warm at night.
Either way, the only thing that straightens such a company out is a change of ownership or enough people saying 'no more' and taking their business elsewhere.
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Those who didn't know motorcycles where blissfully ignorant and thought they were supposed to shake themselves apart, douse your legs with hot oil, require an overhaul every ten thousand miles and refuse to start when not cuddled and kept warm at night.
Oh man... that was too funny! :)
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Maybe a "glimmer' of hope copied from another forum by an owner who has been following the pistol faults closely:
Among the comments on his review of the R51 is this from Jeff Quinn (gunblast.com) posted 4 days ago:
"I had a meeting last week with the Remington folks at their headquarters in North Carolina. They are aware of the problem and the damage to their reputation. They are working on a fix to make ALL of the production guns consistent, so that every R51 on the market is as good as it can be. They are not going to rush the problem guns back out until they have a permanent fix, not just a bandaid."
Several posters on RemingtonOwners.com report being offered full refunds for their R51s awaiting repair. One posted this regarding his conversation with ROC CS:
"I just spoke to customer service regarding my R51. He confirmed that the R51 was made at Para USA in Pineville, NC. He said he didn't know if the plan was replace or repair at this point - he had heard both. He said that they were told two weeks ago that they had a fix and the guns would be heading out "within the next week or two". Now he says he doesn't have any idea when they will be returned. I asked about serial numbers and if that had anything to do with repair or replace. My R51 is in the 2000 range. He said he didn't think so. According to him, there is supposed to be a large group of engineers that are checking each return over prior to return and also that the number of R51's that have been returned is fairly small compared to the number produced."
I hope this is the case. I would rather have a smoothly functioning pistol than a refund, IF parts and support become available..
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This news indicates there may be some resolution. It's better for Remington to take its time and make sure the fix corrects all the issues. Here's hoping they get it right one time, and customers like 1SOW will be able to have the pistol they thought they were buying. I'm still a future customer if this is all resolved.
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3 days ago, I emailed Remington Customer Support and asked for an update on 'WHAT' was going to be the action taken by Remington to make MY R51 run smoothly and safely.
Surprisingly, I got a response:
Good morning, Mr. '1SOW',
The latest update is that your gun is going to be replaced. We are told that it should be coming back to you in about four to six weeks.
We appreciate your patience!
;D ;D Considering it's been two months already, another 1-1.5 months is an improvement. "We are told that it should be..." Told?
I'm an optimist! I'm an optimist! I'm an optimist?
If this pistol does come back, I AM going to shot the pee pee out of it. ;) 8)
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We are told that it should be.
Don't you love those non-commital and elusive words.
Still sounds hopeful though. I'm excited for you.
By the way, when your club hosts their BUG matches, are they usually part of a regular match, or they BUG only matches? I know you'd like to try out the R-51 in one of those.
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My club sometimes incorporates a bug stage or 2 in a regular idpa match but we had a full bug match a couple months ago which was a real hoot with difficult stages. Everyone was many points down.
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By the way, when your club hosts their BUG matches, are they usually part of a regular match, or they BUG only matches? I know you'd like to try out the R-51 in one of those.
Usually it's just one--sometimes two-- bug stages of the 5 stages. Sometimes it's pistol, bug, shotgun, rifle; Hence a "FUN SHOOT".; ;D
I need a 9mm carbine, but it won't be made by Remington. ::)
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That's encouraging news. Love how they respond like it's under the control of someone else. Fingers crossed that within 6 weeks you'll have the gun you thought you were buying . . .
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plain and simple. if it doesn't go BANG every time. I wont invest in it. and the R51.............. :-\
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Remington pulls the plug on the R51..................http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/07/foghorn/breaking-remington-scrubs-traces-r51-website/
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It's to bad. I really wanted it to work also. Its a good thing that they pull it rather than keep producing a flawed product. If QC would have dealt with this from the beginning before they released to the public they would have a better customer base. IMHO
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Kahr CW/CM9. Keltec PF9/Ruger LC9. S&W Shield. Bersa BP9.
Those all immediately come to mind for single stack carry 9mm's in the $400 or less realm. I'm sure there are others. And there are even more options if you're willing to pay a touch more. Being willing to accept a .380 in return for size and cost advantages also hugely increases options.
Which leads to me to ask the same question I have all along: why did anyone care about the R51? It never seemed to have ANY promise in my mind. I got to hold a pre-release model and it just seemed terrible...I honestly cannot name another gun that screams 'I am shoddily built' at such a volume.
I feel bad for the people who bought one of these, only to (apparently) get shafted. At least other manufacturers that commonly have teething issues on new models (looking at you, Sig) generally get them worked out. But I really don't get why anyone put any confidence in Remington or this gun to begin with.
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Which leads to me to ask the same question I have all along: why did anyone care about the R51? It never seemed to have ANY promise in my mind. I got to hold a pre-release model and it just seemed terrible...I honestly cannot name another gun that screams 'I am shoddily built' at such a volume.
I feel bad for the people who bought one of these, only to (apparently) get shafted. At least other manufacturers that commonly have teething issues on new models (looking at you, Sig) generally get them worked out. But I really don't get why anyone put any confidence in Remington or this gun to begin with.
henehcuhp, I appreciate your advice on pistols to buy. I have shot a few of those mentioned and they would do the job they were intended to do.
I can only speak for myself. First, I carry a 9mm Sig 239 and like it. Why I like it: It also does what it was intended to do very well. It also isn't painful to shoot 50 or 100 S.D. rds. It also will shoot to 25 yards accurately. I competed with it in the 1990's because it's "fun" to shoot. In all this time not one single malfunction has ever occurred with a multitude of different ammo. It also offers 8+1 and a 10+1 options that I have for carry/home defense or just fun at the range or in competition as a 'bug'..
As far as your recurring question---why?
1. I was willing to take a chance because I like the original design principles. It's actually simple and eliminates unneeded space in the frame. The lower bore axis made it pleasant to shoot any number of SD rds.
2. For me, it pointed great, felt light, was slim and carried easily IWB.
3. The action did all it was designed to do. It shot very fast and accurately, and recoil was not a factor at all with strong loads. With decent machining and QC, I could outshoot my P239 and smile.
The problem: I wasn't as smart as you are. I had some degree of faith in Remington from long ago shotgun experiences. I gambled and lost.
Too amplify MY Problem, I still think it's an excellent design for 9mm. I'm also old enough that I can't afford to wait a few years to verify new pistol reliablity.
By some fluke, a few on another forum just love their R-51s, that are said to not have any of the problems the large majority of us experienced. ???
[Cracked mags, ill-fitting trigger pins, over-all internal poor machining, irregular dovetail cuts/loose sights, FTFeed due to irregular chamber machining,-firing out of battery due to the same, problems fully engaging the grip safety ]
P.S. I emailed Remington yesterday. I asked for a complete refund if the NEW FUNCTIONAL R-51 pistol I was scheduled to recieve this week couldn't be delivered as promised. ::)
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There were enough initial reviews on the internet, that this gun should have been a good option. I think the R51 is a beautiful design, and should have been a hit. Remington screwed up their own product, and us along with it. They better take care of their customers.
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Looks like Remington's ready to try again...
While we determined the pistols were safe, certain units did not meet Remington?s performance criteria. The performance problems resulted from complications during our transition from prototype to mass production. These problems have been identified and solutions are being implemented, with an expected production restart in October.
Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol, along with two additional magazines and a custom Pelican case, by calling Remington at (800) 243-9700.
Remington Announces R51 Pistol Update
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2014/07/25/remington-r51-pistol-update/
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Thank YOU Ross!
It's following suit that they don't notify the actual customers about this. Instead, they keep handing out the bogus "Expect your pistol back in X weeks"!
They told me to expect a new pistol back in a few days from today. I emailed and requested a refund if the pistol can't be sent in time to meet their "third" deadline since "March". :P
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If Remington follows through on that promise, it'll go a long way in restoring their confidence, as far as I'm concerned.
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Agreed!
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If Remington follows through on that promise, it'll go a long way in restoring their confidence, as far as I'm concerned.
As much as I hate to say it, I've pretty much sworn off anything Big Green. Even if they fix this pistol and make it right with those who initially purchased it, they have had too many issues the past 10 years to gamble my money on. It isn't necessarily Remington, but Freedom Group in general.
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James, I have the exact same opinion---now. ;)
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The Gunsamerica Blog had some other news about the R 51.
Since its rollout at the outset of the year, many have argued that the Remington R51 was a lemon.
However, it wasn?t until today that Remington publicly addressed the issues and concerns that many purchasers were reportedly having with the pistol.
Here is what Remington had to say, according to Guns & Ammo:
?Earlier this year, we launched the innovative R51 subcompact pistol to critical acclaim. During testing, numerous experts found the pistol to function flawlessly. In fact, they found it to have lower felt recoil, lower muzzle rise and better accuracy and concealability than other products in its class.
However, after initial commercial sales, our loyal customers notified us that some R51 pistols had performance issues. We immediately ceased production to re-test the product. While we determined the pistols were safe, certain units did not meet Remington?s performance criteria. The performance problems resulted from complications during our transition from prototype to mass production. These problems have been identified and solutions are being implemented, with an expected production restart in October.
Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol, along with two additional magazines and a custom Pelican case, by calling Remington at (800) 243-9700.
The new R51 will be of the same exceptional quality as our test pistols, which performed flawlessly.
We appreciate your patience and support.?
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/breaking-remington-makes-big-announcement-r51/
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Thanks Painter.
Ross also passed that on.
The really disappointing thing is that REMINGTON isn't passing ANYTHING on to those who've returned their pistols, other than " Your pistol should be returned to you in 4-6 weeks". OR "Your new pistol should be sent to you within 4-6 weeks".
The last statement time expires in a few days. >:(
P.S. Remington also offered price paid refund to some for the return of the pistol. None of those (on another forum) have seen a dime.
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For those who have or had an R51, would you recommend one that operates flawlessly, as advertized after October?
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Skookum, I only fired about 50 rds (?) before my hand gave out, so it may not be fair to voice an opinion on your question yet.
On the other hand ( O0), I really liked the feel and accuracy of this pistol! I also really liked carrying this pistol IWB.
My strongest loads (std pressure 124gr XTPs and Speer G.D.s) stayed RIGHT on target for accurate follow-up shots at 10 yards.
If it operated flawlessly, it's my first choice for carry and fun shooting at the range. My 9mm Sig 239 rd count would drop a lot.
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Two on another forum posted they did recieved the full puchase price refund.
One owner PM'd me asking if I get a refund , can he buy my two mags. ::)
:-\
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1SOW, Don't ask me why, but at one time, I was really enamored with the new Beretta Pico. I think it was the ability to switch .32 and .380 barrels. The Pico was announced in May 2013 at the NRA convention that it would be shipped later that summer. It's still not out there to my knowledge. I almost think I prefer Remington's method of going into production and then dealing with the problems, versus Beretta still not having guns out over 1 year later. I know most people would disagree with me on that point. Seems like until you do FULL production, you just won't find out all the potential problems.
But, I've read your posts and realize you'd be more happy with Remington if they just had better communication with their customers (especially those who've had a problem).
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Humph, Recieved this in the mail today. I couldn't help but laugh when I read "that you recently returned". At least hey are finally responding to the R-51 owners.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XAE97hc6vE0/U-lPhSRDq3I/AAAAAAAADmI/pGyoS3MrRfc/w522-h703-no/Rem%2BResponse%2B1SOW.jpg)
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Well 1Sow. Hopefully they turned the boat, and you get the gun you wished for. I want to see the R51 succeed. You know some heads rolled on this one. Good luck to ya.
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1SOW: Glad to hear they are going to do the right thing even though it took some time. I've been intrigued by the R51 ever since I held and dry fired several in Harrisburg PA earlier in the year. I"ll be interested in your feedback once you've range tested the replacement. Good luck.
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I Do appreciate the good wishes.
I'm supposing it will be at least safe and shootable. If not, the growing bad reputation could be detrimental to their financial health.
I remain an optimist, and will be looking for a holster. ::);D.
I will post my findings, hopefully in October.
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(http://vancouverisawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Woo_hoo_poster.jpg)
You DO know we're going to be expecting a range report!
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Hoping for your positive results 1SOW. A good range report will sure be a good turn.
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Good luck. I hope they get it straightened out finally for you.
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I hope your patience pays off for you 1SOW.
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If and when it comes home, I wish I lived closer to W. Monroe, LA.
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If and when it comes home, I wish I lived closer to W. Monroe, LA.
It would be worth the Fed-Ex cost.
Cheaper than driving. ;)
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It looks like Remington has updated the R51.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/l/0CD65DA1-6DDB-45CB-A0C5-B504C1A038BD/Cy8w3/20150127_SHOT5.htm
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They had to.
BTW; 1SOW, did you ever get your money back from Remington?
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=68139.0
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I'll be curious about the actual retail price for these once they hit the market in numbers, not the MSRP. Given the sordid history, I think the market interest is going to set the price eventually. Believe sales of these things will be very lukewarm until they have a history of dependability. Early adopters have already paid the price and those purchasing the "fixed" model are still taking a large risk. It may be that the early results will come only from those still in possession of last year's model who choose the replacement option.
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I have a feeling that (good or bad) we are going to see these in the CDNN catalog next year. I think people are just done with the R51 and Remington.
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I'm done with Remington TODAY. I recieved my refund for the R51 and deposited it in the bank TODAY.
I still think it's a shame how all this was handled (or not handled) by Remington. This convinces me Remington could care less for the customer and/or their product reliability.
Finis.
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It's hard to believe the saga with the R51 and you are finally over 1SOW. I really wanted it to work out for you. But I believe you did the right thing.
I thought about getting a new Remington rifle the other day, but thought of the R51 and passed.
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1SOW, I think many on here have learned from your experience. I know I have. It's very disheartening how they treated you. IMO Remington customer service failed you. It should not have taken this long to make things right with you.
I do wish the R51 luck, I had thought about getting one. For now though, I do not see myself getting a new Remington firearm anytime in the near future. I think a huge step in Remington regaining their name would be a revamping of their customer service.
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I've been following this thread from the beginning and I'm beyond amazed that it took almost 6 months for you to get final resolution, 1SOW! I remember how optimistic you were that they'd fix it. That's a LOT of good will that they pissed away. Very disappointing.
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Well I'm glad to learn you finally got the money back but sheesh, they sure took their time about it.
Introducing a flawed design is one thing, compounding it with poor manufacturing quality is another, not responding promptly to dissatisfied customers is strike three.
Everything I have that says Remington on it came from another era and was handed down by my Father. The only new item they put out that thought was worth getting was a calendar.
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I still think it's a shame how all this was handled (or not handled) by Remington. This convinces me Remington could care less for the customer and/or their product reliability.
Sorry that you had to go through that deplorable saga, but glad to know about it. I've been looking at 1911s and a Remington R1 was on the semi-short list, now not so much...
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Has anyone heard if Remington will seek California approval?
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Maybe I'm just just nuts, but that pistol was potentially a winner. Wish it had turned out differently.
Que sera sera.
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Is this pistol still a ghost? I haven't kept up with this thread since the revelation that Remington had totally removed it from their site, sales literature, ect...seemed like a 'just forget this gun ever happened' strategy.
Then I could SWEAR that I saw it in SHOT 2015 pictures.
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If they get good reviews after hitting the market I will definately be interested in one. I was when they came out but before I could find one I started seeing too much bad on them.
I truly hope they get their act together, make it work, and never repeat the fiasco
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Is this pistol still a ghost?
They're re-releasing a Gen 2 this year.
I haven't kept up with this thread since the revelation that Remington had totally removed it from their site, sales literature, ect...seemed like a 'just forget this gun ever happened' strategy.
That was actually a myth. It never happened despite such internet luminaries as "Nick Leghorn" claiming it. What happened was that Remington took the R51 off of the highlighted product banner-crawl on their front page. The newsblurb product releases were still there on the Remington front page. The R51 "stub" page (which is all it ever was) still remained on "The Rock" web page (http://therock.remington.com/firearm_ModelR51.php#.VOt5Z3vw9hQ (http://therock.remington.com/firearm_ModelR51.php#.VOt5Z3vw9hQ)). The R51 Youtube channel remained in place, and unaltered on youtube.com. The R51 also remained in the 2014 Product catalog, both in the downloadable PDF and in the interactive flash-style catalog.
I don't know what "Nick Leghorn" was smoking when he wrote that, but the stuff was still right there online when I went and checked on it the very day that he put up his blog post. Nothing was "scrubbed" despite being widely reported. It just sort of grew legs on the internet like the story about McDonald's requiring college degrees, but was still just as false. Judging by the other things he's written about Remington and Freedom Group, it looks like he may have some sort of personal bias about the company.
Then I could SWEAR that I saw it in SHOT 2015 pictures.
You did. They're claiming to be bringing out a new and improved model, being generally referred to on the net unofficially as "Gen 2."
I bought an R51 and immediately had problems. I sent it back in and waited (and waited and waited and waited). I turned down their offer of a cash refund because, well, I wanted the gun more than the money, which is why I traded money for the gun in the first place. :) But when they offered a replacement gun with a MSRP of ~$300 more, how could I say no?
When the Gen 2 comes out, I'll buy one of those and try again. :)
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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Awesome, thorough reply, thanks.
And I got a kick out of you mentioning Leghorn- I actually know EXACTLY who that is. He is, essentially, 'that guy on TTAG who is full of crap.' I gave up trying to read his articles, as it usually resulted in nothing but me feeling the need to destroy his silly opinions in the comments. :-X
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I haven't kept up with this thread since the revelation that Remington had totally removed it from their site, sales literature, ect...seemed like a 'just forget this gun ever happened' strategy.
That was actually a myth. It never happened despite such internet luminaries as "Nick Leghorn" claiming it. What happened was that Remington took the R51 off of the highlighted product banner-crawl on their front page. The newsblurb product releases were still there on the Remington front page. The R51 "stub" page (which is all it ever was) still remained on "The Rock" web page (http://therock.remington.com/firearm_ModelR51.php#.VOt5Z3vw9hQ (http://therock.remington.com/firearm_ModelR51.php#.VOt5Z3vw9hQ)). The R51 Youtube channel remained in place, and unaltered on youtube.com. The R51 also remained in the 2014 Product catalog, both in the downloadable PDF and in the interactive flash-style catalog.
I don't know what "Nick Leghorn" was smoking when he wrote that, but the stuff was still right there online when I went and checked on it the very day that he put up his blog post. Nothing was "scrubbed" despite being widely reported. It just sort of grew legs on the internet like the story about McDonald's requiring college degrees, but was still just as false. Judging by the other things he's written about Remington and Freedom Group, it looks like he may have some sort of personal bias about the company.
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When it was still being offered, you could go on the Remington website and select PRODUCTS --> Handguns and that would go to a page that had a column of Firearm listings on the left side. The R51 was listed there, under all of the 1911 R1 models. It isn't anymore and hasn't been for quite a while.
The rest of the story may be true, but they did remove it from the product list.
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When it was still being offered, you could go on the Remington website and select PRODUCTS --> Handguns and that would go to a page that had a column of Firearm listings on the left side. The R51 was listed there, under all of the 1911 R1 models. It isn't anymore and hasn't been for quite a while.
The rest of the story may be true, but they did remove it from the product list.
Not quite. They removed it from the ranks of the 1911 offerings on the Remington owned website www.1911r1.com, which (surprisingly) focuses on the Remington R1 1911 series handguns, and, instead, moved it to the the Remington owned website TheRock.remington.com, which focuses on most of the other Remington products, such as their rifles and shotguns.
Remington moved it from this link (now dead):
http://www.1911r1.com/pages/Support/model-r51-video (http://www.1911r1.com/pages/Support/model-r51-video)
To this link:
http://therock.remington.com/firearm_ModelR51.php#.VOxyNXvw9hQ (http://therock.remington.com/firearm_ModelR51.php#.VOxyNXvw9hQ)
Frankly, it's one of the few things that Remington did with the whole thing that makes sense. My suspicion is that the web team just decided "hey, the R51 is a handgun so it should get stuck with all the other handguns, right?" So they did. At least until someone else went, "uh... the R51 isn't a 1911, dude." But, yes, when the web team did the move, it appears that, at the time, they took the one link out of the dropdown and forgot to replace it with the new link.
I'm not entirely satisfied with Remington's web team performance or Remington's internal communication system. Even after its release, after I bought one NIB but before any negative reviews started coming out, Remington still hadn't posted a PDF of the User Manual. I put in a Help Ticket with Remington asking about that. The response I got back is, "When we release the R51, we'll put up a PDF of the Users Manual." Umm... "I'm holding an R51 in my hand right now, dumb***." To the best of my knowledge, the only PDF of the manual to date is the one which I scanned in and published myself. If you find a PDF of the R51 User Manual online, it's mine.
And somehow a number of (ahem) "bloggers" decided that Remington had "scrubbed all trace" of the R51. <sigh>
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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Awesome, thorough reply, thanks.
And I got a kick out of you mentioning Leghorn- I actually know EXACTLY who that is. He is, essentially, 'that guy on TTAG who is full of crap.' I gave up trying to read his articles, as it usually resulted in nothing but me feeling the need to destroy his silly opinions in the comments. :-X
I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy. Probably fun to go shooting with. But his "Journalistic Standards" simply are non-existent. He reports unsubstantiated rumor as fact, makes wild speculations, and encourages outlandish implications, while at the same time has managed to insult and impugn the Journalistic Integrity of several long established and well respected writers.
While I don't wish any particular ill on him, he has become a seriously liability to TTAG. He's either going to have to work darn hard to mend fences or TTAG is going to have to release him from their staff.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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I'd also like to get a chance to handle the R51 to see what the fit, finish, and function is like. Definitely a unique looking and interesting pistol.
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I hope Remington has fixed the problems and get them back on the market. I'd really like to try one out. The design has a huge visual appeal to me.
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Can't help but add to the comments: I really liked the pistol design, feel and the way it shot. It would be my #1 choice for a carry pistol if it runs as advertised when and IF Remington fixes the QC problems. I have read the price WILL be increased when (?) it comes out again, but in 100% functional condition, it would be worth it.
This is coming from a CZ 75 lover/competitor who carries a Sig 239 9mm.
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Any word from Remington as to when this year they might come out?