The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZF KADET KLUB => Topic started by: 75Plus on April 21, 2014, 11:08:52 AM
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Spent Sunday afternoon playing with my full Kadet and a Kadet 2 kit. The more I learn the less I know about these. I started with a 13# spring and one of my experimental firing pins. I had loaded 4 mags with bulk ammo from a Federal 525 round pack. The exp. FP would not touch off any rounds so I changed to another one with a different profile. After multiple strikes I managed to fire 7 rounds. I switched back to the factory FP and managed to fire the remaining 33 rounds. Three of these required 2 strikes.
Moving right along, I replaced the upper with my Kadet 2 kit with the original FP but still using the 13# spring. I switched to box of CCI Standard Velocity, 40 grain round nose lead, bullets. The slide self closed as I tapped the mag. home. The first round failed to fire on the first strike. Ten additional pulls of the trigger resulted in 10 rounds down range. The second and third magazines were emptied, by rapid fire, with 20 pulls of the trigger. The fourth mag. self closed as I slapped the mag. home and the first round required a second strike. All the rounds then fired the same as had happened in the first mag. of CCI's. The final mag. of CCI's ran 100%. Fifty rounds fired with only 2 needing a second strike was very satisfying. The fact that both double strikes occurred when the slide self closed makes me wonder if the light strikes were slide related rather than the 13# spring. I will delve into this on my next outing.
I went back to Federal bulk and shot 20 more rounds with one requiring a second strike. I then found a partial box (30) of Winchester SuperX, Lead Free tin 26 grain hollow points. Still using the 13# spring only 4 of 10 rounds went on the first strike. I changed back to the factory spring to shoot up the second loaded magazine. Bad move, out of the 10 rounds only 2 self loaded. Of the remaining 8 rounds only 1 managed to eject, the other 7 spent cases had been trapped by the slide and required hand removal. So much for SuperX Lead Free!
By now it was getting dark so I packed up and headed home. I hope to get back to trying to determine what is different between the Kadet 2 kit and the Kadet upper. Both of them look the same as far as fit of the parts. I will try swapping firing pins and springs and recoil springs on my next outing to see if those may be a factor. I will also try to determine what if any relationship there is between the self closing of the slide and light first strikes. I am thinking that the extractor may be holding the slide out of battery on the first round.
Joe
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If the Kadet extractors weren't $35, I would get a few of them to play around with.
I wonder if one could relieve the extractor notch in the barrel or to work on the cheapest part :D remove some material from the front of the extractor to remove it as a variable?
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Jon, I think it is the mechanics of the self closing that is the culprit. When the slide closed from the slide stop being released there was no light strike. It was only when the slide closed from the mag being slammed home that the problem occurred.
Joe
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I can get my Kadet to self close if I use enough force to seat the mag, but I don't recall if that correlated with any lightstrikes.
I'll add that to the list of things to test next time out.
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Joe,
I have the same problem with the slide closing when I tap the the bottom of the mag. I'm pretty sure my light strikes also happened at that time. I will have to go to the range one of these days to confirm. What is causing the slide to close when I seat the mag? Is it an easy fix?
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re insert mag-release.
This does give 'less' slide travel/slide impact than fully cycling the slide---like when firing.
Back to recoil spring force applied feeding the rd into battery??
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I'm beginning to think this is headspace/round seating related.
I havent got my Kadet II kit yet, but look forward to trying it out thouroughly.
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well,
my recent expierence went from a almost 100percent reliable on trigger pull down to 50percent when I changed to a race hammer, both using the same 13lb spring.
so, being a tinkerer, I decided to do a little machining myself, after initial run, gun running around 80percent with 13lb and race hammer. will machine a bit more.. and get back to you.
good luck to all. luv my kadet!
k
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I'm assuming you are removing mass from the race hammer? In that case you are increasing the kinetic energy but reducing the force or momentum of the hammer. It's kind of a trade off but you might be on to something. Anybody experimenting with a CZC comp hammer? I need to get my kadets to the range.
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nope, not removing mass from hammer, if anything, I'd try adding some weight, I don't have a scale handy and don't want to take the gun apart again.. (those decocker's take time to re-assemble!)
will let you know.. funny thing.. same gun shot tonight with CCI Stinger w/ nickel (plated/silver cartridge), ALL failed first strike.. put in the CCI regular brass and back to 75-80percent..
will keep you posted on the 'other' stuff I am trying... want t experiment a bit more before going public.
k
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I've been running the CZ Custom hammer (Item Number: 10035) all through my testing and with the associated issues I've been having. I did try to add weight to it to see how it might affect the indention on empty cases I was testing. I took a 40gr 22lead bullet and wedged it/staked it inside the hammer opening. It couldn't move once I had it flattened in there. The extra mass didn't seem to help. Mass went up, acceleration must have gone down and overall force appeared to stay the same. I've got some testing to do this weekend with the Wolfe extra power hammer spring I got and will report back. I can re-install the factory hammer and re-test if necessary to see if there is a difference between the hammers.
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Handgun2, what exactly are you machining? You mentioned the factory hammer being 100% while the race hammer was not as reliable. My understanding is the race hammer is heavier than the stock hammer. I have a heavier shadow hammer on my kadet and have an extra one laying around that I was thinking about lightening to see how it compares.
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am gonna wait a bit to 'share' what I am machining. anyway, if the race hammers are heavier... than could that be the culprit? a lighter hammer spring will have a tough time moving a heavier mass and thus having a lighter impact.
again, can anyone please confirm? or give the weights of the race hammer's vs the standard hammer?
thanks
k
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handgun2, "schmeky" discussed in some detail that EXACT issue around the time the CGW Race Hammer was being brought to life. It's here somewhere.
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okay,
anyone have better 'search kung fu" than me? help me find weights of both or other hammers, or posts containing those items separately.
lets go team CZ kadet!
ps. I should start adding stiffer springs back in to my kadet and keep data on performance. again, I am using soley a 13lb hammer spring with a CGW race hammer. I will keep you informed on my 'other' machining when I feel comfortable sharing. Please be aware, I have had dialogue with Schmeky on several of these issues and he is a 'rock star' guy, with top notch equipment, he has made my CZ's better. so please, no one take anything that I post, away from him and his incredible work on CZ equipment. He is the Maestro! bar none.
respectfully,
kevin
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I remember the topic but haven't had luck finding it yet. If I remember it he equated the mass of the race hammer to that of an S&W revolver target hammer compared to the standard hammer. However many action shooters using S&W 625's use the smaller hammer which is often bobbed, thereby removing mass and increasing the speed of the hammer. The idea is that the heavier hammer strikes with a greater force, however the lighter hammer would have greater kinetic energy due to the increased speed. Now I am no physics expert but we need to determine what's need to reliably light off .22 lr rounds. Greater force or kinetic energy? I'm leaning towards KE. Also, are you running the extended firing pins from CGW? I don't think any of us are trying to take anything away from CGW, personally I run a bunch of his parts on my various guns and will continue to do so. I just want to see how far we can push the function of the Kadets.
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Kevin, I think this is the post that 1SOW was referring to regarding the weight discussion.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=45203.0
Joe
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jake & 75,
thanks for giving an explanation and finding some related reading material. I just fininshed reading the 10 pages on that thread, interesting. To answer your question, no, I am only using a standard firing pin.
my question to all is this, during my read of the kinetic energy transfer, one individual commented that an increase in mass of the firing pin would be needed if the mass of the hammer is increased. Could this be something to look into? as a former tool/die maker, I know different steels have different weights given same size, could anyone try making a standard firing pin from 'heavier' steel material? (for example tungsten? or carbide? for sake of the arguement).
any thoughts?
k
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The mass of a firing pin could be increased by increasing the diameter of the section that is inside the Kadet FP spring and using the FP spring from 75B which is only about a third the length of the Kadet spring. I believe an increase in weight of 10% may be possible. 10% may not be a lot but it may be enough to show some difference.
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so we have a possibility.. could we combine your thought with a 'heavier' material?? is schmecky available? is JonC? I will try my sources as well.
keep the ideas coming!
k
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75Plus,
An update:
I "slam-loaded" 17 times on Saturday with no immediate light strikes with Federal Bulk.
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anyone following up on using a 'heavier material' firing pin to carry the inertia?
respectfully,
k
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When I first got my kadet kit 2, it would FTF 4 out of 10 rounds. I contacted CZ and sent it in. On the warranty log it said they, adjusted slide and extractor spring and replaced mags. After getting it back, I shot about 200 rounds of Remington golden bullets bulk without one FTF.
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When I first got my kadet kit 2, it would FTF 4 out of 10 rounds. I contacted CZ and sent it in. On the warranty log it said they, adjusted slide and extractor spring and replaced mags. After getting it back, I shot about 200 rounds of Remington golden bullets bulk without one FTF.
That IS interesting ???
I wonder what their "adjusted slide" involved ?
And what (if anything) the Magazines could have to do with a Fail to Fire ?
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When I first got my kadet kit 2, it would FTF 4 out of 10 rounds. I contacted CZ and sent it in. On the warranty log it said they, adjusted slide and extractor spring and replaced mags. After getting it back, I shot about 200 rounds of Remington golden bullets bulk without one FTF.
Mine did the same
I cleaned the firing pin channel and the inside of the mags (both of which seemed relatively clean to start with) and bobs your uncle.
No adjustments of any kind, just cleaning.
Clarification;
I believe oil/carbon in the firing pin channel caused light strike issues on my Kadet 2
I believe the mag follower not moving smoothly was the cause of my slide not locking back.
Cleaning both appears to have resolved both problems.
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The problem with the initials "FTF".....
It can be used for both "Failure to Feed" or "Failure to Fire"
I know my knowledge of Pistols is limited, but;
Could someone tell me how the Magazine has anything to do with a Failure to Fire ?
I thought these trials were centered on Failure to Fire issues
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Hi
I have had the same FTF problem with my kadet pistol (not adapter), what I did was to replace the firing pin with the new model, cut a couple of coils from the extractor spring (according to a comment in another forum the spring hole in the slide is sometimes too shallow forcing the extractor in too much). Also, I polished the magazine edges and surfaces contacting the top round (especially the front the and rim) as to reduce the effort it takes to pull the round into the chamber, polished the chamber bevel and feeding ramp as well.
Results were very good, still testing but so far near 100% reliability even with full mags using winchester, sellier bellot, federal and eley ammo.
Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk
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Welcome to the Forum Luis
Sounds like you've done a bit of work to get you to a more reliable Kadet
The part about Extractor and especially the Mag Lips sounds interesting
Can you please post a link to the Thread you mentioned
(according to a comment in another forum the spring hole in the slide is sometimes too shallow forcing the extractor in too much)
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Thanks Dan
I also installed the adjustable single action trigger, shadow sear / competition hammer, and polished all relevant parts, trigger pull is now very smooth and a lot shorter.
I'm sorry about the link to the other forum, but I couldn't find again.
Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk
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Found it.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=48924.15
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It's beginning to sound like there is an assortment of individual 'little issues' that can cascade into one big FTFire issue--OR vice versa---OR in-between.
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The light strikes seem to be caused by poor mating between the breech face and the barrel, leaving the bullet improperly seated, which causes the first hammer strike to push the bullet into the chamber instead of igniting it.
Apparently this can be caused by several points of friction (rough slide rails, extractor spring too strong, rough surfaces on breech face and barrel, rough mag lips and inner surfaces, feed ramp, etc...
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Huh, never concerned a lot of those
Guess it's because I don't see many (if any) Fail to Fires with mine
But I can see where you're coming from
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You're lucky Dan, my Kadet would FTF at least two rounds per full (10 rounds) magazine, best case scenario.
But I went to the range today and it worked flawlessly :D shot 200 rounds (eley club, sellier&bellot standard and federal champion) without a single FTF.
I think polishing the mag really paid off.
Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk
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You're lucky Dan, my Kadet would FTF at least two rounds per full (10 rounds) magazine, best case scenario.
But I went to the range today and it worked flawlessly :D shot 200 rounds (eley club, sellier&bellot standard and federal champion) without a single FTF.
I think polishing the mag really paid off.
Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk
That is interesting Luis
Could you please post a pic or two of where you are polishing the Magazine
I'd be interested in seeing that
Funny how, in the beginning, the Kadet Mag was its biggest short coming
Now it's the Barrel Pin, Firing Pin, FTFs etc
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I took a couple of pics I'm posting now, sorry for taking so long Den.
The idea was making it easier for the slide to strip the rounds (especially the top ones) from the magazine, polishing the areas contacting the rim seems to be especially important.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/6aqyhuby.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/byvamy4a.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/01/usasy2ed.jpg)
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Thanks Luis
Man, I thought those Feed Lips were too sharp right out of the box
But now I'll bet they are a real Thumb Slicer :o
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Thanks for the posts.
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:) good point, but no Den. I broke the edges a bit when I polished the lips with fine (1000) grit sandpaper.
Also you don't have to press as hard as the bullets slide right in.
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No problem steerclr :)
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Well,
tinkered again (finally) with the Kadet again, am getting a little better than 80% first strike ignitions with 13lb main spring and CGW race hammer, 100% with second strike in my PO6. Am pretty satisfied with that, as I don't have to change main springs when changing the upper for carry or shooting fun w/ the .40s&w.
may try another small tweak, will update again after trial.
respectfully,
kevin