The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: ShooterDan on April 23, 2014, 12:33:50 PM
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I mentioned below that the new rifle likes the Wolf HP steel case, and that the HP seems slightly more accurate to me than the other Wolf FMJ products. My Chinese SKS "paratrooper" also does better with the Wolf HP, as does my bolt action Rem 799 in 7.62X39. Anybody had those same results? I wonder why? ShooterDan
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Mine likes Silver Bear, Wolf, and Tula. Brown Bear works okay but was not as accurate. I get similar results in my AKM, except that the Vz2008 is more accurate. My early milled Chinese SKS has no preference.
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Any difference with the hollow point? It seems more accurate to me...
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This is a re-post of some information that is sort of "buried" in a sticky on 922(r) that I started some time ago (also under my old username).
These are the steel-cased loads that m vz-58 prefers, in descending order. It was sold as a CZ-USA rifle, but it was built by Czechpoint. There is a significant drop-off in accuracy from #5 (Barnaul 123 gr SP) to #6 (Wolf 154 gr SP), and an even bigger drop-off from #8 (Brown Bear 123 gr FMJ) to #9 (Silver Bear 123 gr HP). My main point is: avoid Ulyanovsk-manufactured cartridges.
"1. Barnaul 123 gr FMJ (Old and new packaging)
2. Barnaul 123 gr HP (Old and new packaging)
3. Sellier & Bellot 123 gr FMJ (Green packaging, purchased circa 2000)
4. Golden Tiger 123 gr FMJ
5. Barnaul 123 gr SP (New packaging only)
6. Wolf 154 gr SP (Tula production, black label, circa 2003)
7. Wolf 123 gr FMJ (Tula production, black label, circa 2003)
8. Brown Bear 123 gr FMJ (Novosibirsk production, circa 2004)
9. Silver Bear 123 gr HP (Ulyanovsk production, circa 2003)
10. Wolf Military Classic 123 gr FMJ (Ulyanovsk production)
You have to realize that in some cases, I only have only tested five boxes (100 cartridges), as it was all I had. In general, the brands that tended to be the most accurate in my SKSs and AKs have been the most accurate in the vz-58. There is one exception: usually S&B does the very best, and I was surprised that the Czech ammuniton didn't come in first with a Czech rifle."
The S&B ammunition is relatively older than the other loadings I had on hand, but this shouldn't be a major factor with sealed cartridges of this type.
Based on this information, I would say that my rifle does not prefer HPs. You will notice that I did not test many HPs, however. I have a Tula SKS that occasionally fails to feed HPs (like maybe 1-2 per 100 cartridges). I have owned this rifle for longer than any other 7.62x39 rifle, so I don't buy a lot of HPs in the first place. I'm sure this skews my results pretty dramatically.
The following is from an even old post of mine on Russian 7.62x39. Unfortunately, it does not cover S&B, Romanian, or Balkan loadings, but I thought it would bear repeating...
"I have learned the hard way that you can't go by "brand" name on the Russian ammunition; you have to go by the "real" manufacturer. A lot of Russian ammunition is actually subcontracted by some of the lesser known arsenals.
Manufacturer Information = http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Factories.php#yu
The best of the Russian is JSC Barnaul. This is marketed as Barnaul (!), Brown Bear, and Silver Bear. Not all Brown Bear and Silver Bear is made by Barnaul, however. The "Bears" were a consortium to streamline importation and marketing of several different arsenals. On the bright side, all ammunition branded as Barnaul seems to be made by JSC Barnaul. You can tell by the "JSC" headstamp. Barnaul is in Eastern Siberia. Personally, I try to stick to Barnaul and Sellier & Bellot.
The next best manufacturer is probably Novosibirsk/LVE. You used to be able to buy true mil surp marked "LVE" on the brown paper wrapper ("low voltage electrical" manufacturer). Novosibirsk makes the majority (but not all) Brown Bear. Some Brown Bear is also manufactured by Klimovsk, Ulyanovsk, and JSC Barnaul. Novosibirsk/LVE also makes some Silver Bear. In past years, Novosibirsk did import some ammuniton in a very basic commercial packaging, usually marked conspicuously with "LVE." Novosibirsk is in SW Siberia.
Vympel makes all Golden Tiger, and all Vympel is GT to my knowledge. This was a new facility (1976) set up to make 5.45x39 and other industrial and chemical products. This is really good mil spec ammunition. I would rank it higher, but it hasn't been around the U.S. that long. Vympel is the only major arsenal in the former Soviet Far East.
Tula Cartridge Works makes the majority of the Wolf branded ammuniton. At one time, TCW made all of it. The best Tula is just as good as, perhaps even better than, Novosibirsk. Unfortunately, there has been a lot more TCW ammunition imported than anything else, so the quality has varied over time. Tula is in European Russia.
Ulyanovsk is the absolute bottom of the barrel. The original Ulyanovsk loads to be imported came in blue and white packaging. I suspect this was old mil surp ammo repackaged as commercial, because it really, really sucked. These loads were horribly inconsistent, and I suspect some of the ammo had been stored for a lonnnnggggg time. Ulyanovsk is also a subcontractor for the Brown Bear line and the Wolf Military Classic line. Ulyanovsk is also in European Russia.
There are some other minor players like Klimovsk, but I can't pretend to have shot enough of their ammunition to have a legitimate basis for an opinion."
EDIT: Added Russian manufacturers' info.
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It just occurred to me that Russian cartridges with headstamps in Roman alphabet letters (as opposed to Cyrillic letters) could all be intended for export. OTOH, I have seen cartridges that were actually issued by the Red Army that also had Roman letters. So, now I am confused.
Cartridges made in Yugoslavia can have either Roman or Cyrillic letters (Serbian?). I have seen a photo of a Yugoslavian 7.62x39 headstamp that had both Roman and Cyrillic markings.
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Golden Tiger/Vympel is my favorite. Higher Velocities (also cleaner/faster burning powder) and boat tail bullets. Jackets are also thinner than others so despite more stable boattail than the pudgy M67, it still seems to deform and tumble faster in ballistic gelatin. Allegedly also milspec (with boattail, M43, not M67), but I'm guessing on velocity only -- milspec bullets would have steel cores. I saw somewhere that they no longer are the exclusive supplier to the Russian Military -- maybe Barnaul since most the new upgrades to milspec bullets since early 90s have happened there? Don't know though.
From here, it gets complicated.
Tula and Ulyanovsk are the same company or at least partners in the same company. In the US, them now is what used to be Wolf in the US until TulAmmoUSA started in ~2009 or so.
In 2009 or so, TulAmmo decided to cut out the middleman (Wolf) and sell ammo marketed as TulAmmo instead. This apparently led to a huge contractual blowup -- all the Wolf packaged but w/o Wolf guarantee ammo from that time we're seeing on the market now.
Now Wolf steel is coming out of Barnaul -- Brown Bear/Silver Bear/Monarch Steel case are the big brands there.
BUT until recently (prob 2008 or so), Ulyanovsk Cartridge made most if not all of the 7.62x39 ammo for Wolf (then Tul) and Silver/Brown Bear. Tula made the 5.56x45 steel Wolf Stuff, but not sure of the Bear's product line split. This thread has ideas but was right around splitsville so who knows. It does have codes that are handy to deciphering what you're seeing however: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-496175.html
Regardless, Ulyanovsk 7.62x39 would be 2nd choice. First choice if I could find their 8m3 sapsan HP. And it's safe to say that nearly all the TulAmmo 7.62x39 is coming out of UCW, so there's that brand as my #2. Note that Cablea's Herter's Ammo in 7.62x39 is Uly as well.
Last but not least is Barnaul/Wolf/the Bears. Mainly due to thicker jackets, non-
Otherwise, you have:
Red Army is Century imported Ukranian ammo that's priced similarly to the new production Russian stuff. Otherwise, it's occasionally you'll see some Yugo, Bulgarian or Czech surplus. But it's all more expensive than new production russian.
Here's a good chart on velocity differences between ammo. From a 2010 thread so, probably pre-split. I think the Yellow box is a Tul/Uly loading.
(http://i810.photobucket.com/albums/zz28/pogi_pogi_pogi/762x39Velocities1.png)
From here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?65613-Terminal-Ballistics-from-a-short-barrel-5-45x39-or-7-62x39&p=811240#post811240
Ultimately for me, Golden Tiger checks all the major boxes for pricepoint, velocity andaccuracy, corrosion resistance for storage, and ballistic gelatin performance and is my primary ammo for range, zombie invasion, storage. I also keep Tul/Herters 154 gr softpoints and 122/124 FMJs on hand as secondary ammo types for specific uses like hunting, home defense, etc, as currently about 1/4 of ammo inventory...
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OP - VZ58s and 2008s have different diameter barrels, unsure of any twist rates offhand.
Radom - typically, the HPs are fatter/wider bullets than are the FMJs. That should mean BETTER performance in a Czech made milspec barrel. Granted, the HPs probably have a worse ballistic coefficient than FMJ's but most new production consumer ammo in the US is the stubby M67 bullet, not the M43 boat tail like Golden Tiger.
Here's some info on bullet diameter. It will make a difference in accuracy.
P.S. I believe the Tula 154 grain Soft Point is .310. Golden Tiger FMJ is .309. And then most of the Russian stuff - Tula, Wolf, Barnaul is reported to be in the .308 range.
The only makers I've heard to be exclusively in the .311 range are S&B, Prvi Partizan, and Lapua, and I don't buy from any w/ the cheap russian stuff available.
Again, the russian HPs do tend to run a little wider than the FMJs...
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P.S. The start of this video has links to other reviews that they did: http://youtu.be/Vh8QbWz5neI
Radom seems to be arguing that Barnaul is more accurate/consistent. Unfortunately it also appears to be the worst round in ballistic gelatin unless you want just sheer penetration.
Here's the golden tiger gelatin that really sold me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gknVTUd7tY
And here's a very fair MAC review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=napCSMHHe_w
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RSR,
Thanks for all of the info. I haven't bought any 7.62x39 in quite a while. Since I had no idea of the Wolf/Tula break-up, it must be at least been 2007 or even earlier. Since my info may be badly outdated, I thought it might be helpful to post some pics and specs.
I got out the phone (for the camera) and the calipers and did some checking. My calipers are Frankford Arsenal stainless steel dial calipers made in China, FWIW. When I refer to measurements below, I quickly measured five of each at the neck, and I didn't remove the lacquer (when applicable). If anyone cares, I may pull a few bullets and take some better pictures later, but it's @10:30 PM.
Here is the Sellier & Bellot that I have. The top is the green cardboard "commercial" packaging that I referred to. The cartridges on the stripper clip were sold as mil surp ammo in the type of brown paper that you typically see with this type of ammunition. I'm sure it had other packing once upon a time, but I never saw it! FWIW, these stripper clips work better in my rifle than the other ones that I have that are mostly Chinese. (They all work in my SKS, so I didn't segregate them, except for the vz-58.)
Both the "commercial" and "mil surp" cartridges are exactly .309" according to my calipers. I measured at the neck, and there is no lacquer there on these cartridges. I would need some magnification to tell if there is any difference in the headstamps, since they look identical to my eyes.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee109/Doc_Steve/SampB.jpg) (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/Doc_Steve/media/SampB.jpg.html)
Here are the Barnaul boxes that I referred to as "old packaging." The FMJ cartridges are just under .310" at the neck, but they have red lacquer sealant. The HP cartridges are just over .311" at the neck, also with red lacquer sealant.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee109/Doc_Steve/BarnaulOld.jpg) (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/Doc_Steve/media/BarnaulOld.jpg.html)
Here are the Barnaul boxes that I referred to as "new packaging." The FMJ cartridges also just under .310" at the neck, again red lacquer sealant "included" with the measurements. The SP cartridges were all at least .312," also with lacquer. The packaging has English language (Roman letters, natch) on this side.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee109/Doc_Steve/BarnaulRoman.jpg) (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/Doc_Steve/media/BarnaulRoman.jpg.html)
Just or kicks, I took a picture of the other side of the boxes, which are printed in Russian (Cyrillic). I had forgotten that they were dual-printed until I opened the ammo cans. I took Russian in undergrad for four years, and the information on both sides is identical/correct idiomatic translation to my knowledge.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee109/Doc_Steve/BarnaulCyrillic.jpg) (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/Doc_Steve/media/BarnaulCyrillic.jpg.html)
I tried to take a headstamp photo of the "new" Barnaul cartridges to show a difference in the headstamps, but here's how it turned out. I can tell it's a small arms cartridge, but that's about it.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee109/Doc_Steve/Barnaulheadstamp.jpg) (http://s234.photobucket.com/user/Doc_Steve/media/Barnaulheadstamp.jpg.html)
Again, if this is actually helpful to folks, I'll try to take some better pics of the cartridges themselves.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I don't have any examples of the other loads that I mentioned above. I shot up all of the GT/Vympel and Novosibirsk. I traded the Ulyanovsk-manufactured cartridges because they were not very accurate in my rifles.
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Golden tiger 7.62x39 is in stock at SG Ammo.
Rarely available (limited quantities about once every 3 months): http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammunition/762x39
From the email back in stock notification:
READ THIS - PLEASE NOTE THAT THE SYSTEM MUST SEND ALL EMAIL NOTIFICATIONS BEFORE THE PRODUCT POSTS AS AVAILABLE, IT COULD BE 1 HOUR WAIT OR SO BEFORE THE GOODS GET ONLINE FROM WHEN YOU GET THIS MESSAGE. I HAVE 3000 CASES TOTAL COMING IN AND ONLY THE FIRST 1000 ARE POSTING TODAY, SO IF YOU MISS OUT THERE WILL BE A SECOND CHANCE. IF THE INVENTORY DOES NOT APPEAR ONLINE WHEN YOU GET THIS EMAIL CHECK BACK IN 10 OR 15 MINUTES
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GT is a little cheaper and runs just fine. My VZ is more accurate than I am, but I shoot better with it using iron sights than anything else I have.
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Where can I buy some Barnaul SP?
Thanks
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JohnEd -- wikiarms is your friend for ammo searches, click on 7.62x39 and search for soft point or sp on each page.
Personally, I tend towards the silver bear in soft point in the 120 grains realm, just for that little extra corrosion protection and a little smoother feeding.
Tula is the only one that makes the 154 gr sp insofar as I'm aware, and it's also sold as Herters at Cabelas. J&G sales generally has good inventory at decent prices on the barnaul stuff, though I've gotten it elsewhere too. (Both are probably good deer loads, though I'd personally spend a little more on US made stuff for a higher quality bullet.)
EDIT: My preference is for the barnaul 120 grain soft points w/ the lacquer cases, but that ammo is pretty difficult to find... J&G usually lists brown bear as either/or poly or lacquer case.
Purpose of this post:
SG Ammo just got in Barnaul milspec 7.62x39. They are uncertain if it contains flash suppressant and haven't chrono-ed, but it is fully lacquered and sealed at case mouth and primer.
Barnaul is the current military 7.62x39 ammo provider for the Russian Military per my understanding... If completely milspec, it should contain flash suppressant and run a little hotter than commercial loads (probably same velocity realm as golden tiger).
SG did confirm that the barnaul uses the m67 bullet, not a boattail bullet like golden tiger. While the m67 design is more prone to tumble, all things being equal -- the gel, etc, tests I've seen show the Golden tiger to have a thinner steel jacket than the barnaul, meaning both tumble about the same distance but the GT seems to deform more, which means less excessive penetration (GT easily hits the 12" minimum but doesn't go clear through blocks like Wolf/Barnaul, also meaning more of the energy from the GT bullet is likely to be deposited in the target than the wolf)...
http://www.sgammo.com/product/762x39-ammo/1000-rounds-762x39-fmj-123-grain-barnaul-mil-spec-ammo-sealed-bullet-and-primer-
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RSR,
Thank you very much
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Just fyi -- was VERY PLEASANTLY SURPRISED to see this.
SG Ammo is now selling an 8M3 effect 7.62x39 hp load they custom ordered from Tula/Uly: http://www.sgammo.com/product/tula/1000-round-case-762x39-8m3-124-grain-hollow-point-ammo-made-ulyanovsk-cartridge-works-u
They also have 100 round lots as well: http://www.sgammo.com/product/tula/100-round-box-762x39-8m3-124-grain-hollow-point-ammo-made-ulyanovsk-cartridge-works-ul0