The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ75, 75b, 75 SAO inc the Transitional => Topic started by: LouisianaAviator on May 12, 2014, 03:16:46 PM
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Hello all, I've been lurking for a while but finally made an account to ask a question.
I can't find much hard data of the average lifespan of the CZ75b. I'm considering getting one (it'll be my first CZ pistol) but I want to make sure this is a pistol I'll be able to shoot my whole life. I shoot at least 200 rounds a month, and this would be a self defense weapon so reliability is paramount. Apparently there's examples of 1911's, Glocks, and H&K's still running after 80,000 and even 100,000 rounds.
How many rounds does the CZ75b last? How many rounds does the frame last?
Any hard data on this? I can't find much.
Thanks
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I don't have anything to add other than if you're talking about spending ~$30,000 to shoot 100k rounds, a $500 gun replacement is a minor expense. ;)
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It typically aggravates me when people give non-answers to forum questions, so I'm sorry that that's what I'm going to have to do in this case. ;)
No one can tell you how long any gun will last. You can get estimates on round counts on barrels before accuracy starts to suffer, or how often springs and extractors should be replaced as preventative maintenance. But even that stuff is just estimates, and real world results can be wildly off in either direction.
As to your concerns, you needn't worry. There are people in this forum putting more rounds through theirs in a month than you will in a year at the rate you quoted. Don't sweat it. ;)
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I have 28k through a 75B and its good as new. I have 5k through a P-09 and it is better than when it was new. I hope I live long enough and can afford the ammo to wear these two guns out. I fully expect the P-09 to be just as accurate after another 10k rounds as it is now.
Shoot'em and don't sweat the small stuff. Replace the springs once a year if you must.
Joe
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Impossible to say since no ones ever wore one out O0
I'm guessing at 200 rounds a Months you might want to think about a new one in 40 years
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In addition to the above responses?.. I have several CZ's. The oldest of which is a '94 CZ 75 Compact. The only think I have replaced is the recoil spring. Other than that?. 100% stock.
My SP 01 Shadow has been fired roughly 9,000 times in the past two years. It has experienced fewer malfs than my old Glock 22 with about the same round count.
+1 on Edraven's comment?.. the gas we will use to drive to the range (unless you can shoot out your back door) will be greater than the cost of a pistol in just a year or so.
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Impossible to say since no ones ever wore one out O0
Perfect answer!!!!
I have 20,000+ rounds through a 75B and it is better than new, since the trigger has now smoothed out a bit.
I always thought that the world would end, and there would be just dust floating in the void. Except that Ruger revolvers and CZ Pistols would be floating around in the dust.
Aliens would wonder what they were.
Sancho
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I shoot over 11/1200 rds a month. My 75b had 60K rds on it when I got my 75 Shadow that now has over 14-15K on it, and it's now pretty much broken in and running perfectly.
"Wearing them out" is hard full-time job other than maybe a slide release after 20-30K rds, mag springs after a LOT of use and maybe a trigger spring if you shoot and dry fire a lot. Some say the recoil spring needs periodic replacement; but shooting light loads, I've never experienced that.
They CAN be broken by doing stupid things in the name DIY improvements---you don't want to know. :-[
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I'm not aware of anyone wearing out the frame or slide, yet. There are quite a few people on this forum who shoot enough to have gone through multiple rounds of replacing the normal wear parts, primarily springs. I seem to be lucky, because I have replaced my fair share of springs in the last 13-14 years, but to date, I've never replaced an extractor or firing pin, for example.
The metallurgy on 75/85 series pistols has improved over time, and I believe it is continuing to improve, albeit at a slower rate. When the B series was introduced, it coincided with a significant upgrade in the metallurgy/service life.
The "official" durability requirement, as published by CZ-UB, was initially only 5,000 rounds fired (9mm) in 1975, but this specification was increased to 8,000 in 1980. However, the same source indicates that all pre-B pistols tested to date have exceeded this by a minimum of 30%, or at least 12,000 rounds fired. The source notes that the technical requirements/specifications were increased again in 1991 and 1995, but I cannot find the newer figures. See pp. 46-47, Pazdera & Skramoussky, CZ 75: The Birth of a Legend (CZ-UB, 2005). In context, I don't believe this was "hedging," so much as avoiding the need to list all of the different models and variants, as well as chamberings other than 9x19mm, available after 1986.
Presumably, these pistols were tested with military loads, not nominal SAAMI specification commercial 9mm loadings. These were the durability requirements/specifications formerly provided to military and police customers/purchasing agencies.
Personally, I have fired at least 8,000 9mm cartridges each in several different Type B 75/85 series pistols with only routine changes of the recoil springs, and the occasional firing pin spring. In my case, I have shot a fair amount of SAAMI +P and the equivalent in handloads. I know/know of people who have fired at least 12,000 9mm cartridges each in either Type A or Type models (or both). Some of these people have replaced extractors, etc., but none of the major parts (frame, slide, or barrel).
At least one person of my acquaintance opted to replace a barrel at @20,000 cartridges fired. I hope he will post here soon, as I believe this was more due to a perceived need than an absolute requirement. This person shoots a fair amount of SAAMI +P 9mm or the equivalent handloads, IIRC.
I would expect someone who is keeping careful notes to observe some minor increase in the dispersion (group size) at @12,000-15,000 cartridges fired. I would suspect that someone who is not properly documenting this would not notice for quite some time. The barrels of 75/85 series pistols are still hand-fitted to the slide; they are not "drop in" replacements. To be clear, this fitting is done by professional gunsmiths, but on a large scale consistent with mass production techniques. The goal is a very high average; each individual pistol is not "accurized" to the degree one would expect from a custom job. However, the nature of the design, construction, and specific techniques employed allow this type of accurization if the owner desires to do so later.
In other words, you would expect to see some degradation of the grouping long before the chamber or the bore wore to the point of requiring replacement in an absolute sense. This is just the normal life cycle for an all-steel pistol built with these techniques. At the end of the day, it's an excellent embodiment of the "no free lunch" principle. If you want a traditional all-steel pistol for @$500 that is also tight and accurate, this is about as good as it can get.
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Have a friend who used to be the CZ rep to police departments. At 50K he would do a rebuild on worn parts. Guessing he did this about 3 times before leaving CZ. Guessing he even had to clean it a couple of times :-)
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IIRC, there were some gentlemen on the Enos forum who had 80,000+ through their CZ's.
I would think Stuart or Burningsquirrels would have some good examples.
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Lol I was thinking the same thing and already posted it over there.
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IIRC, there were some gentlemen on the Enos forum who had 80,000+ through their CZ's.
I would think Stuart or Burningsquirrels would have some good examples.
I think that anyone shooting this much also knows how to maintain the pistol(s) properly for that regimen. I'm not really sure what we're discussing here.
At 200 9mm cartridges per month, it would take a little over 33 years to fire 80,000 cartridges in a single pistol. In my experience, no one shoots like that. I think the CZ pistols could probably handle it with standard 9mm loads, but people shooting that regularly aren't going to stick with one handgun for 33 years. Also, common sense tells me it wouldn't group as well as it did at 20,000 cartridges fired.
If the OP's question was "Is a 9mm CZ 75B a lifetime purchase?," then my answer is yes, provided you maintain it properly.
The specs/requirements I mentioned earlier are "official" versions of the so-called "torture tests" that people allegedly use for various platforms, but conducted under laboratory conditions without maintenance. It's incredibly hard on a handgun to either overclean it or ignore cleaning it altogether. It's also incredibly hard on a 9mm handgun to shoot it for thousands of rounds without at least changing the recoil spring.
I'm pretty shocked that some people don't find a benefit from changing the CZ recoil springs. My pistols are all older and came with OEM Czech springs. These pretty much sucked. The recoil springs were always at least 2 lbs. lighter than their nominal specs., and they wore out quickly for that reason. The firing pin springs also tended to wear out faster. On the bright side, the mainsprings and hammer springs were also lighter, and they aged like fine wine.
At the time, the Wolff replacement springs were actually designed for Tanfoglios. This wasn't a major issue for most 75/85 series pistols, but it caused major problems for some models, like the 97B. Since then, Wolff has become the OEM CZ supplier, precisely because Eastern European gunsprings had such a bad reputation in North America. There used to be extensive threads here on how to deal with replacing OEM Czech springs.
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I no longer shoot near as much as I use to
Nothing like Joe, 1 or several others out here
I do have several thousand Rounds thru my B-SA and it's as rock solid as it was when I bought it
But I'll bet (besides a spring here or there), your CZ(75ish) will out last you and be something you'll pass-on to the Kids or Grandkids
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Radom
At 200 9mm cartridges per month, it would take a little over 33 years to fire 80,000 cartridges in a single pistol. In my experience, no one shoots like that. I think the CZ pistols could probably handle it with standard 9mm loads, but people shooting that regularly aren't going to stick with one handgun for 33 years. Also, common sense tells me it wouldn't group as well as it did at 20,000 cartridges fired.
I don't shoot near as much as several competitors I know do. My 75B at 60K rds could still reliably bounce 12 gage hulls on the 27 yrd berm. Not very scientific, but real empirical data.
If I can keep shooting at my present rate, my 75 Shadow should see 80K at age 5yrs, 6 months--in 4 1/2 years. I'm actually shooting this pistol a little more than I cited each month over the last year. I'll periodically update the rd count. ;)
P.S
My High Standard .22, I'll never really know the round count; but since the 1970's I'm shooting it a lot less now last century. It's still spot on at 27 yards.
My Sig P239 doesn't get the high round counts, so it and the H.S. will be inherrited by my son to try to wear them out--or maybe my granddaughter--or future great grand child. ;)
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Radom
At 200 9mm cartridges per month, it would take a little over 33 years to fire 80,000 cartridges in a single pistol. In my experience, no one shoots like that. I think the CZ pistols could probably handle it with standard 9mm loads, but people shooting that regularly aren't going to stick with one handgun for 33 years. Also, common sense tells me it wouldn't group as well as it did at 20,000 cartridges fired.
I don't shoot near as much as several competitors I know do. My 75B at 60K rds could still reliably bounce 12 gage hulls on the 27 yrd berm. Not very scientific, but real empirical data.
If I can keep shooting at my present rate, my 75 Shadow should see 80K at age 5yrs, 6 months--in 4 1/2 years. I'm actually shooting this pistol a little more than I cited each month over the last year. I'll periodically update the rd count. ;)
P.S
My High Standard .22, I'll never really know the round count; but since the 1970's I'm shooting it a lot less now last century. It's still spot on at 27 yards.
My Sig P239 doesn't get the high round counts, so it and the H.S. will be inherrited by my son to try to wear them out--or maybe my granddaughter--or future great grand child. ;)
I am sure that familiarity with the pistol(s) cancels out the slight degradation of the bore(s) for most people. The empirical evidence on CZs provided by CZ-UB suggests that the bore will start degrading at some point after @ 12,000 cartridges fired. According to CZ-UB, this is significantly higher on the newer models. To be fair, the information published by Pazdera & Skramoussky doesn't specify which loading(s) were used, either.
My interpretation of the anecdotal evidence provided by people I trust is that they don't notice much degradation of the bores. Additionally, I haven't noticed it either, but I am probably just under 10,000 9mm cartridges fired on my most heavily-used CZ pistol.
FWIW, the initial increase in dispersion was only @10-20mm at 25m when fired from a mechanical rest after 12,000 cartridges fired. See p. 46, Prazdera & Skramoussky, CZ 75: The Birth of a Legend (CZ-UB, 2005).
Changing the recoil springs is not as clear-cut as it once was. You pretty much had to do this for function reasons with the Czech springs. You ran into other problems with the Wolff springs that were available @11-13 years ago. For example, people tended to "overspring" the CZs, which was also hard on the pistol when the recoil spring returned the slide into battery with too heavy/long a spring. If you cut/trimmed the Wolff springs intended for Tanfoglios, they also tended to wear prematurely in a CZ.
Again, I'm not questioning the honesty/integrity of people having good results with these pistols over time with high round counts. I do believe they are getting these results with more or less "ideal" conditions: newer-production pistols, relatively lighter loads, better springs, etc. On the bright side, someone buying a CZ today has access to a better pistol made with better parts, more information and collective experience (both from the shooting community and the manufacturer itself), and more accessories actually designed for the current models.
To sum up, the only "hard data" provided by the actual manufacturer isn't specific about a round count anywhere near 80,000 cartridges fired. To be fair, no manufacturer is going to commit to a number a number that high, period.