The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: JDA70 on July 05, 2014, 02:21:52 PM
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So...let have a discussion about optics for a vz.58.
Now I know that is an overly simplified question/statement.
What I mean is, what scopes actually fit the rifle in function.
Can you put a 3x9x40mm scope on an vz.58? Sure but it's going
to get in the way of function and probably feel awkward.
So far I have come up with a few scopes that I think will work on this rifle
and not cost you a small fortune like a Trijicon ACOG for example. I'm trying to
keep this simple and cost effective.
1. Vortex Strikefire II
It's a fixed power 1x red dot with 100 MOA adjustment for around $180.
The dot itself will cover about 4"inch target at 100 yards. Not the best
out there for sure.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-vortex-strikefire-ii-red-dot-4-moa.html
2. Bushnell TRS-25 Trophy Series Red Dot Sight.
Little bit cheaper then the Vortex but still a great optic for around $80 if you
don't want one that is camouflaged. This one has a smaller Dot then the
Vortex Strike Fire. It's 3MOA if I remember correctly
http://www.opticsplanet.com/bushnell-1x25-trophy-series-riflescope-trs-25-red-dot-731303.html
3. Nikon Monarch 3 Riflescope - 1-4x20mm
These types of scopes are going to cost around $280
Now from what I have heard they can take the shock from shooting
a 7.62x39 round and still hold zero. Not a real fancy scope but decent.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/nikon-monarch-3-1-4x20.html
The next one is
4. Leatherwood CMR-AK762.
This is by far the optic I like the most out of all of these.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/leatherwood-hi-lux-1-4x24mm-cmr-ak762-illuminated-tactical-rifle-scope-for-ak-47.html
So what's my the problem here? Both the Monarch and Leatherwood
are 10 + inches long scopes.
Apparently the Leatherwood and Nikon can take a beating and I don't think
spent cartridges hitting the body would matter.
But then again I have never tried one of these scopes on a vz.58.
The main concern is the glass getting hit.
I measured the distance from the ejector to the end of the receiver cover
and it's about 6" inches
What do you guys think? What is your currrent set up?
Have you tried mount a scope like the Nikon Monarch 3?
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I have a TRS-25 on a CSA LPM-1H and I'm happy with it .
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Good questions, I'm gonna follow this post. I have a Vortex red dot (first version), was considering the second Gen red dot, but not the strike fire model. I also have the tag13g ACOG with the 7.62x39 Bullet drop reticle and which I believe will sit back far enough on the CSA side mount rails (both tall and short - see pics here. http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63778.msg432362#msg432362 (http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63778.msg432362#msg432362)) to avoid getting clobbered by spent casings being ejected. I was also looking at the hybrid EOTech NV and magnifier which are pretty bleep pricey, but work with NV and allow for CQ and distance. Kalinka usually has some cheaper options ( )and some casing deflectors I believe. Finally, I contacted a Bulgarian optics company about their options and await their reply. I really would love to see what other options peeps are looking at. (http://kalinkaoptics.com/bargain-bin-obzor-1p63-tactical-combat-scope-w-solar-dual-white-green-multipurpose-reticle-ak-akm-mount.html[/url)
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For cowitness, Primary Arms Red Dot: https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-Arms-s/586.htm
$50 this weekend. Can't be beat. Get the MD-06L if you want to be able to screw on a killflash. Killflash +$20. It and Bushnell are neck and neck quality and you have to spend at least $350+ to have any sort of measurable performance gains...
Also Primary arms makes an awesome 7.62x39/300BLK scope recticle: http://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-Arms-1-6X-Scope-with-ACSS-7-62X39-300AAC-p/pa1-6xakser.htm
(someone discussed previously on the boards)
I think it's overkill considering my use of the weapon as a carbine and am awaiting the 5.56 version for my Galils...
For non-cowitness red dots (e.g., top cover mount) consider the Vortex Sparc with it's 2x direct attach magnifier.
Military Arms Channel Budget Red Dot test:
http://www.thebangswitch.com/budget-red-dot-sight-comparison-part-1/
http://www.thebangswitch.com/budget-red-dot-sight-comparison-part-2/
http://www.thebangswitch.com/budget-red-dot-update/
BTW: AIM Surplus was selling both MD06 red dots for $49.99 w/ free shipping but they sold out as soon as Mr GunsNGear, possibly others, started posting about it. Some interesting (very positive) feedback on them in his notice post: https://www.facebook.com/Mrgunsngear/posts/576017562511314
*Free shipping code in the thread/comments as well.
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Hey thanks guys.
I didn't know about the MD-06L from Primary Arms.
http://www.tacticalsandwich.com/?p=78
I think we can all safely say a MD-06L is great deal
if you want to run a Red Dot in combat on a vz.58 and
I'd not be surprised if the Bushnell TRS-25 did as well.
There are some other options but I'll get to them later.
I really want to talk about Running a 1x4 power scope on a vz.58 / VZ2008.
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Surprised that the Bushnell rated tops, but just because I was unawares of it. I have a Gen1 Vortex Sparc that usually rides on an SGL21 via a Midwest Industries side mount and it has never failed me. The gen2 model looks somewhat improved.
The primary Arms red dot for $50 sounds like a no brainier for a good budget red dot. Plus there should not be any mounting or clearance considerations.
I wonder how many of these would survive MACs multiple drop test?
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I use the Bushnell TRS025 and have nothing but good to say about it, great optic. :)
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There are some other options but I'll get to them later.
I really want to talk about Running a 1x4 power scope on a vz.58 / VZ2008.
Options are side rails:
Corwin sells some side rail mounts that have full bottoms that would protect the scope such as this one: http://www.corwin-arms.com/product/vomz-sks-svt-40-vz58-ak-side-mount-iii-weaver-mount
VZ58rifle.com sells this mount that includes a deflector option: http://www.vz58rifle.com/products/montazni-lista-tz-pro-optiky-posp/
http://www.vz58rifle.com/products/usmernovac-nabojnic-blatnik-pro-puskohledy-posp/
And second option is railed, clamp on top cover and then run a rail extension off the front of it with scope rings that sit high enough to allow: http://www.jsesurplus.com/railextensionriser.aspx
Might need to do some fitting and/or material addition for ejection angling/aiming, but it should work fairly well as well so long as scope isn't touching the rail extension.
My thoughts off hand anyways.
Please take a look at the Primary Arms 7.62x39 scope I mentioned. It's really ideal for this rifle/ammo in my opinion. Russian ammo is 2 MOA anyways, so it makes sense to have a scope that takes that into account; or at least that's my opinion...
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I vote for a red dot for fast target acquisition. I run a Bushnell TRS-25 I got from Amazon for $70 mounted on my upper handguard, very small and crisp dot works well for targeting out to 100 yards. Had it for years on several different rifles and never failed. I've also purchased a few items from Primary Arms and have always been happy, for $50 their micro red dot is probably the best bargain out there. Other than the name I'd bet you couldn't tell the difference between the Bushnell and the Primary micro side by side.
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But what if you want to shoot out 400 meters?
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Advance 300! Wahahaaaa or call fido number 9
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Recently Bushnell's outlet store in Overland Park,KS had a Fathers Day sale. I picked up a Simmons Pro Hunter Hand gun scope, 2-6 x32 for $27. it's made in Korea too. It has about 18 " of eye relief so it will work great for a Scout Scope setup and it allows you to use both eyes. I wanted to go the Scout scope route for my SKS and was considering a Burris or a Leupold Scout scope but decided against either on account of the price. I have a SKS Scout scope mount and a extra long picitinny rail that goes with it, if any one is interested? I sold my SKS and bought a VZ2008.
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If you run the straight stock option an ACOG might be an option as well. Believe they run around 6 inches in length, but at least part of that would/should hang over your stock...
Though Lucids resemble ACOGs, they're a 1x optic w/ 2x magnifier screw on option.
The closest and cheapest ACOG alternative that I'm aware of are the Burris 3-5x Prism Optics... But then Primary Arms has some magnified Red Dots that are similar size but cheaper.
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I?ve looked at options for a decent scope for years now, and haven't actually found anything that I could justify spending my money on.
At the moment, Vector 1-6x28 (http://www.vectoroptics.com/Vector-Optics-SCFF-07-Apophis-FFP-Scope-Product.html) looks like something that might work. Length is only 7.7", and it doesn't look half bad. But it's a Vector... And an expensive Vector too.
The other alternative could be Kalinka Optics PO 3.5x20 (http://kalinkaoptics.com/rifle-scopes/standard/fixed/po-3-5x20-compact-weapon-rifle-scope-w-german-post-reticle.html) . It's short, and should take a beating. But it's only 3.5x, and the reticle is what it is. If you zero for 300m it might be OK. Or use Kentucky Windage.
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Regarding REAL battle optics: (as in "real" expensive)
Now that RMRs suggestion has got me drooling down my rubber bib looking at Aimpoints... :P , I thought I might return the favor to the forum.
If you can afford it, one of the finest 100m-300m-600m range scopes for the fabulous 7.62x39 (M67, M43) round that you should really consider is the Trijicon ACOG TAG33A-13.
My buddy paid about $3000 for his Nightforce sniper scope on his AR-10. Holy crap!
At $850-1300 the ACOG only costs a third of the price of a Nightforce. Only 1/3 the cost! ;D See what I did there? Feel free to use that with your wife. Remember just a third of the cost of a Nightforce scope! -- now that's a savings!!!
Anyways,
The TAG33-13a is a fixed 3x30 optic with sweeeet horseshoe reticle and a 7.62x39 bullet drop hold over. This optic has been exclusively mounted on my Sig556R, but it may get a test ride on a Vzor58 in the future.
Like typical ACOG designs the TAG33a-13 doesn't need no stink'n badges, er I mean batteries, and the reticle remains nicely lit day or night with daylight fiber or night time tritium. The scope is rugged as hell: Your wife can probably use a baseball bat to hit the ACOG into your algae infested Koy pond, then later if you can dredge the pond to retrieve it, the scope will be just fine. All sorts of over-priced QD mounts and risers (often costing more than other scopes, or a divorce lawyers retainer) are available for the ACOG in order to set the height to match up to NV adapters, or co-witness iron sites, etc.
Adjustments to windage and elevation are precise with 4 clicks per inch at 100 yards. The little removable covers on the knobs are not attached, so it's possibly something small to loose.
The TAG33 scope is available in three different reticle colors -- red, green and amber. The green horseshoe is simply awesome during a sunny day, and more than bright enough in low light and at night, but kinda sucks for contrast against any NV adapter which paints the world green. Green on green - red or amber would be much better with NV. Not a problem on the vZ58, since there is no place to mount NV adapters directly over the receiver. http://www.opticsplanet.com/trijicon-acog-3x30-riflescope-w-horseshoe-dot-7-62x39-reticle-ta51-mount-ta33-13.html
And for the price of less than a couple portraits of dead presidents (that would be the Grant identical twins), you can add a ruggedized miniature reflex (RMR) 3.5 MOA sight plus mount to the top of the ACOG for CQ use. https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/support/faq_RMR.php I don't have one of these, but it's far less than 1/3 of the cost of a Nightforce scope, so I'm considering it :P
My shooting friends and anyone at the range that tries the scope is immediately impressed with the clarity and ease of target acquisition. The light transmission is really just incredible. The initial impression for someone who is unfamiliar with the optic is usually "this is awesome" or "bleep! you can't miss with this" or "this is only the cost of one third of a Nightforce scope?, I gotta tell the wife". :o
This ACOG is not a budget scope option by most folks measure, but if your recently divorced (or wish to be) and can afford this optic, it is well worth the time to check it out. I can't recommend this optic enough.
Mortgage vs. Thermal:
...and for real night time fun, without the chance of ever seeing any wife again - except maybe in court, check out the more recent additions that FLIR now offers ...
http://www.sportoptics.com/flir-thermal-rifle-scope-431-0007-04-00.aspx
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I?ve looked at options for a decent scope for years now, and haven't actually found anything that I could justify spending my money on.
At the moment, Vector 1-6x28 (http://www.vectoroptics.com/Vector-Optics-SCFF-07-Apophis-FFP-Scope-Product.html) looks like something that might work. Length is only 7.7", and it doesn't look half bad. But it's a Vector... And an expensive Vector too.
The other alternative could be Kalinka Optics PO 3.5x20 (http://kalinkaoptics.com/rifle-scopes/standard/fixed/po-3-5x20-compact-weapon-rifle-scope-w-german-post-reticle.html) . It's short, and should take a beating. But it's only 3.5x, and the reticle is what it is. If you zero
I really like that scope. The reticle is okay, not my first choice
but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Too bad it's out of stock.
We need more scopes like that.
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I have the TRS-25 with NEA mount. It is a true co witness so you can use your irons for 400 yd shot.....or put the red dot on top of the target.
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Personally I like the Aimpoint PRO or maybe a Browe BCO on crazy days.
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Personally I like the Aimpoint PRO or maybe a Browe BCO on crazy days.
Curious, why the pro over the micro T-1?
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I can get it lower to bore and get better cowitness because of the larger tube. It sounds wrong to say a larger tube gets you lower, but it's the way they mount that really does the trick.
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I'm reviving this thread since it is pretty inclusive already. I'm pretty well checked out on the '08 at this point with (blurry) iron sights and am about ready to think about getting a red dot sight for the one with the NEA top rail. I don't have experience with them except for recently having tried a TRS-25 on a buddy's AK. I was pretty impressed with the sight (the AK not so much, as usual) and it did seem like I might benefit from having one, which was the idea for this rifle to begin with.
I was pretty well set on getting a TRS-25 for about 80 bucks to mount on my NEA rail but have been looking at the Primary Arms red dots instead and have questions. First, Airacuda mentions that the TRS-25 on the NEA is true (absolute?) co-witness rather than the lower 1/3 that I had understood it to be. Can anyone comment on that? I'd prefer lower 1/3 co-witness if I can.
As far as the PA offerings, the fixed base one is about $12 more shipped than the TRS-25 but seems like it's probably worth it.
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Micro_Dot_With_Fixed_Base_p/md-fbgii.htm (https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Micro_Dot_With_Fixed_Base_p/md-fbgii.htm)
I'm wondering if the fixed base one would be 1/3 or absolute co-witness on the NEA? RSR - you mentioned co-witness but didn't specify.
For another ten bucks they have the removable base version, which also has the power knob on the side, rather than on top like the fixed base version. I'm not sure if that's a plus or minus.
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Micro_Dot_Removable_Base_Gen_II_NV_p/md-rbgii.htm (https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Micro_Dot_Removable_Base_Gen_II_NV_p/md-rbgii.htm)
I guess this might be worth it if I need to raise the sight enough to allow 1/3 co-witness and it would allow me flexibility if I wanted to use it on a different gun. Does anyone have experience with either of these?
Last but not least, for yet another ten bills, they have what appears to be a slightly longer version of the above with flip-up covers installed. It also comes with a riser, which I'm not sure would be useful.
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Micro_Dot_with_Removable_Base_and_Fli_p/md-adrfbundle.htm
Any insights on the flip-up covers, especially on these, is welcome. I'm not sure if it's worth the extra length or price but if they had enough room to flip down it might be worth it to me but I don't mind bikinis. I guess if the riser would be useful, that would add to the value.
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I've been running a trs 25 on the front fab handguard and it have been really good,accurate and solid no co witness there and no experience with the NEA ones.Now I just ordered a Corwin dust cover rail cause my plan is putting a primary arms 4x scope ,I never been a fan of the mount on the front handguard and I want to push my 2008 to some distance to see how it performs.Keep in mind that micro dot with removable base state getting a little heavy and bulky...good luck keep us posted
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A Burris Fastfire III reflex just arrived today for checkout. Perhaps it will live on a Samopal Vzor58? I was originally considering using it in conjunction with an 3xACOG, but installing the Fastfire on a 45 deg/ rail mount for CQ targets. Since it is tiny and has no parallax issues from 10-150 yards it may end up being the primary, but the ACOG has always done my old eyes well.
I am also going to try it solo on the front of the FAB rail, and possibly on the NEA.
Cost was about $220 on eBay and this model comes packaged with a cheap and cheerful cover (see through), a couple little tools for mounting and zeroing, a removable mounting base, and a cleaning cloth. 4 red dot settings, including auto -- no NV settings.
So, the optics I currently have on VZ.58s in addition to the new arrival are:
ACOG x3 with 7.62x39 BDC reticle on RS Regulate AKOG top rail and VZ side rail,
Primary Arms 1-6 with BDC for 7.62x39 mounted on Magwedge Kwikrail,
and an old Vortex SPARC gen 1 on NEA rail (partial co-witness ~1/3).
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Omar, yeah, weight is definitely a consideration for me on this one. The removable base version is only weighs .4 ounces more than the fixed but I may just go with the fixed base PA version since it sounds like the dot's a little more crisp than the TRS-25.
CP, I was looking at the fastfire but it sounded like the dot was less crisp. I do like the idea of the holo sight and it seems very compact but it is also twice as much as the others. If you do try it on the NEA, please report back.
I guess I need to do more research but the PA fixed mount one mi.
Eventually, I want to put a rear mount and some kind of magnified optic on my wood stock '08 but that's farther down the line.
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I tried the Burris FastFire III with 3 MOA dot (not 8 MOA dot) mounted on the Fab Defense rail (higher than NEA -- equal to top of sight bock) and it performed well. As previously mentioned the reticle has several brightness settings, including an automatic brightness setting, which I did not really get a chance to test out.
Two "issues" with the FastFire III:
1) As mentioned the dot is perhaps not as "crisp" as some others, however better than some other red dots I have, and for a CQ optic (or secondary 45 deg. offset) function would still be very good.
2) when aiming directly into the direction of the sun -- esp. when the sun is lower in the sky -- there is considerable glare projected into the glass (appearing as either a horizontal line, or large bright dot), as is the issue with most red dot sights.
The ACOG is by far my top pic as a battle/self defense optic at urban distances (100-300 yards). The issue with ACOGs, whether 3x or 4x magnification is the parallax. For me it is difficult to keep both eyes open with the magnified optic, esp. in low light conditions and quick multiple target acquisition is also difficult due to the focus of the shooter with the magnification (esp. if one eye is closed). There is also a compensation required for impact (hold over/under) at very close ranges due to the height of the optic over the barrel. A red dot reflex mounted on the ACOG, or better yet as secondary optic mounted the rail at 45 deg. offset as a CQ sight. Mounting the reflex red dot as secondary optic at 45 allows you to somewhat maintain a cheek weld instead of raising your eye to the dot on top of the ACOG and 45 deg. offset mounts are much less expensive than Trijicon mounts for the ACOG.
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I use a Holosun 2MOA red dot. Comes with two mounts for height preference to co-witness an AR15 with flip up sights, or as it turns out, co-witnesses the VZ2008 sights with the shorter mount. You would think it's made for the VZ sights since the red dot 'dots' the front post perfectly! As cool as that was, I opted to add a 1/2" riser under the short mount. I prefer not to have the VZ's fixed sights in my view, and with it elevated 1/2" I barely see the top portion of the front sight hood when the dot is centered.
The specs on the Holosun are great. Boasts a 50k hour battery life, or so they claim. I'll let you know in 5 years if that's correct!! I like the on/off features as well. You can hit an intensity button or simply bump the rifle and it activates. Hit both buttons or wait 8 hours and it deactivates.
You can check it out at http://holosun.com . I have the PARALOW HS403A Red Dot Sight. Retails for $170 but I got lucky and paid $170 + shipping. :'(
1/2" Riser added:
(http://commonbullets.com/uploads/vz/IMG_20150824_183020.jpg)
Short Riser to co-witness:
(http://commonbullets.com/uploads/vz/holosun short riser1.JPG)
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50k hour primary arms red dots ($150+ ones) are made by Holosun as well...
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I've got an old Comp M2 from ebay mounted on my Bonesteel top rail, they can be had pretty cheap if you don't mind that they probably aren't exactly 'on the level' in how they are sourced. Additionally, the weight up at the front of the gun has me looking into grabbing one of those new Trijicon micro dots, it just spoils the light and handy feel a bit when you stick the 8 oz optic plus mount out there. Alternatively, you could look into those RS Regulate side rail options, keep it a bit more balanced.
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If you get one of those Trijicon microdots, please post a review. Very curious on those...
Yes, from a pointing and balance and weight standpoint, microdots are nice. I have earlier gen primary arms red dots on two of my VZ2008s...
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Lots of good info here to think about. I'm still doing house renovations, so the gun fund is limited these days and this isn't the only platform putting pressure on it! I don't want to add any more weight to this one than necessary so I'm pretty sure I'll just order the fixed-base PA micro dot. RSR - are either of those PA microdots on an NEA rail and if so - where does it sit in relation to the irons?
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Yes. Approx lower 1/3rd, not absolute. Bonesteel is closer to absolute...
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Thanks, that's just what I wanted to know.
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I had a chance to play with two of the 'big boys' today, the EOTech EXPS3 and the Aimpoint PRO. After reading reviews and specs, I really wanted the EOTech, even though it's a bit chunky. The specs on their holographic technology, even though not all that realistic, it does use a laser diode to give the projection. Wiki the specs to be impressed. This was the first time I picked one up, and wow, what a crushing blow! The reticle is awful (to me). I'm used to red dots that are bright and solid sharp dots and this took me by surprise. This model had the single dot with a 65 or so MOA circle with partial crosshairs. The presentation look so grainy, I though I needed to make some type of adjustment. Nope, I was told that's the way they are but people really like it. Wha? Even the center dot was grainy, like the entire circle-dot picture was one big fuzz ball. Now usually I try to reason through the positives, especially given the popularity. But perhaps that "popularity" is because the military bought it for field use? Who knows. All's I know is that I would never consider one. So moving on to the Aimpoint PRO (patrol Rifle Optics)...
Wow, this sucker looks good and rugged. But priceeeey. I looked at one of the smaller ones as well, one you'd use on a pistol, and it's even pricier at around $800ish. Well made, though, but the EOTech also appeared to be well made and rugged. Not that I care since it's poison to me now. O0 So anyway, playing with the Aimpoint showed it to be very simple and to the point, and a decent 2 MOA red dot. Pretty clear, too. I liked it! But I didn't buy a thing. Why?
Because I already have a 2 MOA red dot Holosun... The $170 one that came with two mounts and has similar specs to the Aimpoint. Is it as rugged? I don't know, but probably not. Is the dot as good? Yes, every bit and might even be a bit sharper. I'm trying hard to be pretty honest about this because there's such a massive price difference. I know my Holosun is made well, is accurate, and I know it holds zero. They both have equal battery lives at 50k hours, and the Holosun has a few different ways of handling on/off. Aimpoint, you just leave the sucker on and never worry about it for years. The Holosun has a timed cut off, but turning it on is just a matter of bumping the rifle (or press a button).
Some folks have complained that the Holosun base (some models) has to be removed to change the battery. That's true, but it's 50k hours! How often are you going to be taking it apart? I also looks like the Primary Arms models are either made by Holosun or clones, so you have more options.
So there ya go. I'm thinking it was time to move up to a better sight when all along I had something that's near good enough to the best there is in an Aimpoint, so I think I'll just stay with what I have. As far as I know I'm not going into battle, and I have many rounds through my VZ now to know the Holosun will hold up. For the price difference I think I'll just buy lots of ammo. No wait, I can just buy another VZ if PSA ever offers them again! ;D
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@smokemup
Thanks for posting your thoughts. I have the same trouble with the EOtech reticle - not my cup of tea either. I think you either love them or hate them, not too many opinions in between.
The Aimpoint is certainly a top of the line un-magnified optic and worth every penny if your in theater where your life depends on it or if you have the cash to own them as a lifetime investment.
Nothing wrong with PA, Holosun, etc. as they are great red dots.
I did finally get to operate the new Burris Fastfire III reflex on my Sa.58 SBR during a 3 gun match this past weekend and it was very good. Easy target acquisition, clear, bright dot - crisp enough for up to 100 yards, maintained zero with all the bumping and moving. I would recommend it.
My intention is to mount it on a 45 deg. offset for close target acquisition and keep the 3X Trijicon ACOG (7.62x39 BDC reticle) as the primary optic for anything 75-100++ meters. The ACOG being 3X makes it difficult for me to acquire close targets through the sight, but easier to aim long distance, while the rod dots are hard for me to target at distances much past 100m.
It sucks to get old. I might not be able to move fast, but at least my eyesight is poor. :'(
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It sucks to get old. I might not be able to move fast, but at least my eyesight is poor. :'(
Pretty funny stuff. On a positive note there's the, uh, er, well ok then, never mind. O0
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@smokemup
My intention is to mount it on a 45 deg. offset for close target acquisition and keep the 3X Trijicon ACOG (7.62x39 BDC reticle) as the primary optic for anything 75-100++ meters. The ACOG being 3X makes it difficult for me to acquire targets through the sight, but easier to aim, while the rod dots are hard for me to target at distances must past 100.
It sucks to get old. I might not be able to move fast, but at least my eyesight is poor. :'(
Mind saying what mount you're using for 45 degree offset?
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Well, I ordered a PA fixed-base microdot and got it 4 days later. I took it out and zeroed it today at 25m. I still have to continue getting used to it and may try it with a 50m zero but overall, I'm pretty impressed with the thing for the price. It's way better than the blurry iron sights and certainly helps me get on target faster with less eyestrain. I'm almost sorry I waited so long but I prefer to be proficient with iron sights on a firearm if it has 'em, blurry or not. I can confirm that it's about a lower 1/3 co-witness on the NEA rail.
(http://oi60.tinypic.com/2en6bso.jpg)
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But what if you want to shoot out 400 meters?
Bring a different gun.
I have used my 2008 with a TRS-25 out to 280 yds at "tactical carbine" matches. The gun and I did as well or better than most of the AR guys with non-magnified red dots.
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@smokemup
My intention is to mount it on a 45 deg. offset for close target acquisition
Mind saying what mount you're using for 45 degree offset?
Havent order one yet. There are lots on eBay, Amazon, etc. for under $50. I saw a 45 deg. offset at a gun store that was over $200 ... all that makes be wonder what to consider when purchasing.
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Hey CP so where did you plan to put the 45 degree of seton the back or in the front rail sorry bout the ? I never use one of this before in a 762-39 rifle ::)
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Hey CP so where did you plan to put the 45 degree of seton the back or in the front rail sorry bout the ? I never use one of this before in a 762-39 rifle ::)
I guess I will put it off to the right side on the furthest point back on the front top rail (over the gas rod). I might have to play with it a bit to see what works best. I really would also like to figure out how I can get 45 deg. irons on the gun so I could use them for CQ target in conjunction with having a magnified optic also mounted (ACOG) as to be legal in Practical 3Gun Class.
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I am not sure as to how ideal this optic is for the VZ58, but I recently acquired a vortex spitfire 1x (prism optic, like acogs) and have been very impressed.
(http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/dim_ps_spitfire-1x.jpg)
Regarding CP's last post -- the 3x version it has rails on the optic to allow for a 1x optic mount...
(http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/dim_ps_spitfire-3x.jpg)
Back to the 1x:
-the recticle is etched so in event of battery failure you can still have a point of aim unlike red dots (excluding backup irons -- why I really like cowitnessing red dots on the VZ58)
-it weighs 11.2 oz (per spec sheet) with mount and battery vs 3.7oz aimpoint micro and riser for same height (~3 oz) puts it at ~7 oz, so ~4oz heavier
-4" long vs aimpoint micro at 2.4"
-there is an ocular adjustment wheel which means w/ less than perfect sight you can adjust the optic to make the reticle crisp
-has both red and green illumination vs most red dots w/ just one color
-does not have an illuminated setting low enough for night vision -- but you can do the old trick where you close the front cap and with both eyes open, it allows minute of man aiming at cqb ranges... And yes, you can use nv on the eye that's not the optic... Not ideal, but would work.
-it does have caps for both front and rear.
-and vortex also has a killflash for this optic as well (important for me as 1) it protects the front lens and 2) kills flash
-battery life, vortex at 250 hrs max setting and 2000 hrs lowest setting, vs aimpoint t1 at 50,000 hrs min and bushnell/primary arms micro dots at 1000 hrs mid setting and 3000 hrs lowest
Overall pretty impressed, some give and take as always with weight and battery life being primary downsides for me. Adjustable focus and etched reticle being primary pluses.
PSA currently has this on sale at $199 -- everywhere else is ~$260 to $300 on it.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/vortex-spitfire-1x-prism-scope-with-drt-moa-reticle-spr-1301.html
(And if you're in the market for an AR upper, this complete set minus lower receiver and the optic is $500, so you're getting the optic for $100 OR upper and complete parts kit for $300 -- either way, you're getting an extra $100 in value over PSA's already discounted sale prices. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/psa-16-stainless-mid-length-1-7-freedom-rifle-kit-with-vortex-spitfire-1x-prism-scope.html )
1x reticle:
(http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/ret_spf_1x_drt_moa-t.jpg)
Subtensions:
(http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/sub_spf_1x_drt_moa-t.jpg)
3x reticle:
(http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/ret_spf_3x_ebr-556b_moa-t.jpg)
Subtensions:
(http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/sub_spf_3x_ebr-556b_moa-t.jpg)
*And forgot to mention -- vortex optics have an unlimited lifetime warranty too: http://www.vortexoptics.com/content/vip_warranty
**Also, I don't know of any varying height mounts other than the one it comes with, which the height is optimized for an AR.
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Regarding CP's last post -- the 3x version it has rails on the optic to allow for a 1x optic mount...
The ACOG does not have rails on top. It has mounting holes for an expensive reflex mount, that only accepts a trijicon reflex.
A) I am using a Burris Fastfire as a red dot that will not fit on the expensive mount.
B) A reflex on the ACOG sits too high. A 45 deg offset should work better with a stock check weld set for the ACOG.
At least thats the idea.
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Thanks to keratoconus I can't use red dots, so nothing but glass with a diopter adjustment for me. I went with a Leupold Prismatic 1x14 in part because it looked like it could mount lower than the other 1x prism scopes. I'm waiting on a railed dust cover so I haven't used the scope yet, but I think I'm going to like it a lot. The glass is excellent with good field of view (83ft @ 100yds) and eye relief (3-5 inches). What I like best is the way the image completely fills the ocular so that the thin scope edges just seem to disappear. It reminds me very much of a Russian PK-AS, but with internal windage and elevation adjustments (1/2moa clicks) and a lifetime warranty.
It weighs 8.3oz without mount. Leupold says it has the thickest walls of any of their production scopes and is virtually indestructible. I don't know about that, but it does feel very solid.
Reticle choice is pretty poor by Leupold standards, only DCD (double circle dot) or circle plex. The circle plex has a 6moa center dot so I went with the DCD, which Vortex apparently likes as well (the Spitfire 1x reticle is a nearly exact copy).
The downsides are all in the illumination. Somewhat uncommon CR-1/3N battery. Poor battery life (15 hrs at max brightness and 250 hrs at minimum brightness). Eight levels of red-only illumination which don't get bright enough to use in full sun. While I like the ergonomics of the push button control, it seems uncomfortably easy to turn on inadvertently so the battery dies while the gun is stored. The illuminator is removable though, so in theory you could attach anything you want to the illumination port. I'll only use illumination infrequently and in low light so I can live with the limitations. I rather like that Leupold put all the money into the optics and not the doodads.
I believe Leupold is discontinuing this scope so there are some factory demo deals available at Optics Planet for as low as $399. With a coupon, that should bring the price down to a point that is not completely laughable in comparison to a Vortex or Burris.
I think this is an exceptionally fine piece of glass. Optically and mechanically I'm not sure we'll see its like again and certainly not at this price.
(https://op1.0ps.us/978-550-ffffff-no-upscale/opplanet-new-leupold-prismatic-1x14-matte-riflescope-66170.jpg)
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No doubt the ACOG and Leupold are better optics than the vortexes...
I specifically posted the 1x b/c I find it to have a pretty unique set of features on the market -- wasn't aware of the leupold.
The 3x has some pretty steep competition and is actually a slightly higher pricepoint than the primary arms ones, though their 5.56 fixed mag offering w/ a similar reticle is 5x so quite a bit more mag there, do have a 2.5x with a more standard red dot reticle. Primary arms being the primary competition on the fixed mag prism optics.
Also, just saw that primary arms is now offering a first focal plane 1-8x 7.62x39 and 5.56 scopes at $1,300... Japanese built, but definitely makes the Bushnell 1-4x PCL scope that PSA and amazon have at $200 look like a bargain... Both have 24mm objectives. Have 2 of that bushnell scope and very impressed w/ it for the price as well...
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Audax - PM sent re coupon
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Audax - PM sent re coupon
I don't know if the coupons are generally available on the web. I've shopped at Optics Planet before so I get various email promotions. Not too long ago I got an email offering a 12% off coupon if I subscribed to their newsletter so that's what I did. I would try setting up an account to see what deals are available.
Let me just say that as nice as the Prismatic is, I would run a co-witnessed red dot on the handguard if I could, because receiver mounts for the vz 58 are such an expensive pain in the neck.
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@smokemup
My intention is to mount it on a 45 deg. offset for close target acquisition and keep the 3X Trijicon ACOG (7.62x39 BDC reticle) as the primary optic for anything 75-100++ meters. The ACOG being 3X makes it difficult for me to acquire targets through the sight, but easier to aim, while the rod dots are hard for me to target at distances must past 100.
It sucks to get old. I might not be able to move fast, but at least my eyesight is poor. :'(
Mind saying what mount you're using for 45 degree offset?
Just ordered these two mounts from Brownells to try on the FAB Defense front rail. Whichever works I will operate on the Sa.58 and the other will go on a SIG556R (which also has an ACOG on it) in anticipation of adding another Burris Fastfire on that rifle. I love the ACOG but for CQ finding targets is not so easy.
JP 45 Deg. offset
Daniels Defense 1:00 offset
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/CitizenPete/RMR%20offset%20mount_zpsc5fzqf2e.jpg)
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I picked up a Vortex Spitfire 1x during the most recent Cabela's sale. I'm very impressed with it so far. The clarity and sharpness of the reticle is awesome. The only thing that I'm disappointed by is that it's apparently not compatible with the ACOG mount due to its mounting screws being off by about .25,inches. I'm toying with the idea maybe altering an RS Regulate ACOG mount, but would hate to potentially waste the $70-$80 dollars.
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Hey guys just went to the range today and test the corwin arms dust cover with a ncstar mark 3 2-7(I know is no an acog or nothing fancy but I'm in ai tight budget)and I was getting 2-2 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards(that's for me is good enough)but I notice when I got home that the mount was a little loose.Does any body now the best way to keep it from loosen up.I just got on the mail today my new PA 4x compact scope n it looks great,I'll give my update one I go to the range and try it. ;D ;)
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Trijicon MRO Micro intial review by MAC.
https://www.full30.com/video/f2013832f5def3941a0920fabdf9fc3a?utm_source=system&utm_medium=email&utm_content=mac&utm_campaign=subscribers
Mo money, mo money... :(
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FOV being larger definitely applies to the spitfire too (probably larger than the trijicon MRO fov too, at 10-20% or so) -- but at 2.5x the length and weight...
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Does any body now the best way to keep it from loosen up.
Checked the rail and the two allen bolts had come loose! I had specifically asked if I should Blue loctite them down and was told no- not necessary. I can be fairly heavy handed with a wrench at times so I thought they were on good and tight. They are now blue loctited, lesson learned.
http://www.gunownersofcanada.ca/showthread.php?9072-Corwin-Arms-Railed-Dust-Cover-Range-Report
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A couple interesting postings over at TFB.
Unsuitable at Any Range: A Holosun Review: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/08/unsuitable-range-holosun-review/
USSOCOM Issues Warning About EOTechs, Sights Do Not Live Up To Claims: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/02/ussocom-issues-warning-about-eotechs-sights-do-not-live-up-to-claims/
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I'm so far happy with my Primary Arms 4X Compact 7.62 x 39 / .300 Blackout Prism Scope PAC4XAK300BO.
I use it with one of the Red Dot mounts, I think the low mount one. Love the reticle.
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Saw those reviews. My Holosun has been fine. Then again, I'm not quite the klutz as that one reviewer. Holy cow! I mean, Holo cow! O0
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I'm so far happy with my Primary Arms 4X Compact 7.62 x 39 / .300 Blackout Prism Scope PAC4XAK300BO.
I use it with one of the Red Dot mounts, I think the low mount one. Love the reticle.
Just got one of those myself! It's perfect for the VZ.58!
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
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Trijicon MRO Micro intial review by MAC.
https://www.full30.com/video/f2013832f5def3941a0920fabdf9fc3a?utm_source=system&utm_medium=email&utm_content=mac&utm_campaign=subscribers
Mo money, mo money... :(
I'm a huge fan of his reviews!
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Just added a vortex sparc 2 today, will test tomorrow and report back
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The vz58 and vortex sparc 2 is a great combo!!!
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I'm looking to add an optic to my vz.58. I have the Bonesteel handguard.
Here are the three that I am considering:
http://www.primaryarms.com/new-primary-arms-micro-dot-with-removable-base-md-rbgii/p/kt-md-rbgii/
http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-advanced-micro-dot-with-push-buttons-and-up-to-50k-hour-battery-life/p/kt-md-ads/
http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-advanced-series-red-dot-with-integrated-ar-height-qd-mount-lifetime-warranty/p/kt-pacrs/
Any recommendations? With my setup, will I need a riser?
Also, I have the stock folding butt stock. Will I need to swap out the butt stock in order to get a better cheek weld for the optic? If so, recommendations?
Thanks for your insight!
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Your stock is fine; no riser for optic or stock. Cowitnessing optics are at same plane as irons.
I would go w/ the cheaper one personally; however, I'm unclear if that's nitrogen purged (PA used to make standard dots that were and were not nitrogen purged option for maybe a $15 difference). If not, that can mean a fogged up optic, which makes the optic and backup irons both impossible to use until you remove the red dot.
EDIT: according to amazon and PA youtube video description when searching by this rd's name, md-rbg ii, the optic is nitrogen purged. http://www.amazon.com/Primary-Arms-Micro-Sight-Removable/dp/B00NC1G0KI
https://youtu.be/pnQefooo30c
I would only consider a full sized red dot if it's an aimpoint and the only version you can afford (one member did a pro mounted forward with low rings and it cowitnessed) or if you're going w/ a prism optic that has an etched reticle.
Some have noted issues w/ holosuns, but the PA branded/spec'ed one (advanced made by primary arms) seems to get better reviews than the holosun stamped ones... Some interesting torture tests on the the PA advanced microdot...
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Pulled out the AR today on which I mounted the vortex spitfire 1x to re-zero it for a lighter varmint load, and it was immediately obvious that the mount is actually two pieces. Unsure how I overlooked before. Regardless, opened and read the manual this time too -- and the standard setup is lower 1/3rd cowitness on ARs is 40.4mm from center optic to base surface. The lower mount is ~1 cm/~10mm lower and puts it at 30mm from center to base.
The ocular lens is around 34mm and larger than objective lens, which puts the low base height, excluding optic, at about 13mm or 1/2 inch. This video from sootch (also clearly didn't watch until now) shows both mounts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q84jsw_O1j8
I'd say low base on this is 2-2.5 times wider/taller than what's found on microdots... Believe all other comments regard spitfire on are on point, but wanted to clarify height.
Do note that they previewed V2 of the spitfire 1x at shotshow this year with illumination controls on rear face as buttons instead of top turret (more like sparcs controls I suppose) and will be powered by aaa battery instead of cr battery. Also, this verison, the mount does appear to be fixed due to controls. Possibly why PSA was clearing out the originals at less than 1/2 msrp.
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-spitfire-ar-1x-prism-scope
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I run a primary arms micro dot on my vz2008 and it holds zero fine. Dot is crisp and clear. I wanted to mount a eotech 512 but it was too chunky for the upper.
I read pages a few back about the eotech being grainy but that's done on purpose. When you shoot out doors on a very sunny day/ desert conditions and turn up the brightness the grains get filled in and provide a crystal clear reticle. I run my brightness real low in cloudy or indoor conditions and the grains don't show. Gotta play with the 21 brightness settings. There's literally a setting for any time of lighting
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(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/12510518_948969195140132_2405635100559902299_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=ef6533dd94a7fe36ad42fd7ee3f4b211&oe=573B7BF0)
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Aimpoint Micro H-1. IMO the best red dot ever.
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For a red dot I would always first look at ultradot. All the bullseye guys swear by them and they last and last and hold zero, even with the largest caliber handguns. I believe they're still made in Japan and are a great alternative to aimpoint. I have a ultradot matchdot on my Hi Standard and love it.
They sell a microdot and also carry the Ulradot 6, an assault rifle version now, that looks pretty good--with a four dot selector (including 2 MOA) and bullet drop compensation. Check it: http://www.ultradotusa.com/ultradotdist2010_009.htm
I wanted something with some magnification, though. PA has a 7.62x39 1-6x optic that looks fantastic. http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-1-6x24mm-sfp-scope-w-acss-300blk-7-62x39-reticle-pa1-6x24sfp-acss-300bo
It's 10 inches though. Does anyone sell just a bullet deflector that you can mount up to protect your scope (either to a rail or elsewhere)?