The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: Cheesesteak on September 26, 2014, 02:31:31 PM
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I?ve just ordered the low profile scope mount and rail from Czechpoint and was wondering what optic would be best. I?ve been looking at the Vortex Sparc II for $200. What do you suggest? Also how did you get the optic rail mounted?
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-sparc-ii-red-dot-2-moa.html
https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/lpm-optic-mount-with-side-rail?l=4
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A lot of people go with one of the following.
Bushnell TRS-25
Primary Arms Micro Dot
Vortex Sparc
As for mounting the rail. You line it up so you can still punch out the pins for
disassemble. It's designed in such a way as there is really only one spot to place it.
other wise you won't be able to push out the pins in the receiver.
Then a Center punch is used to mark where you want to Drill and Tap the
holes for the screws in the receiver.
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I like their low profile rail mount. Do you have a Century or CSA rifle? The Century will require that rail to be milled to fit.
Ultimately the side rails for me are a non-starter b/c you lose the ambi safety capability which I really like...
As far as optics non-cowitness, at +$100 for a red dot, I'd go for the standard aimpoint pro (with low profile rings), which can be had in the $325-$350 range if you watch for sales. The only benefit of the vortex is the 2x magnifier that screws on to the red dot. Budget Bushnell and Primary Arms make some good red dots.
Magnified optics are a whole other discussion...
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Thanks... I have the vz.58 so it should all fit without issue. Did you have a gunsmith drill and tap it or do it yourself? As for the optic, I think I'm going the cheaper route and get the sparc II. They seem pretty solid and have a lifetime warranty.
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If you're dead set on the vortex amazon has them for $150...
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Cheesesteak, you can mount the rail yourself if you choose to, follow czechpoints instructions here
https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/receiver-side-rail?l= Or have your local gunsmith do it, if you do just have him follow the instructions from czechpoint.
As for the sparc reddot, you can't beat it. Comes with 3 different height mounts/2x magnifier/nv capable/small 2 moa dot. Relocation of on/off switch is a plus. I have the first gen for about 3 years now and still holding up, mounted on my rifles In 7.62x54r/x39/.308/5.56/.223/.22lr/3030. Only thing I changed was the battery once. Finding myself a vortex fan as I just picked up a vortex spitfire (great scope)with 5.56 reticle for my bullpup
Sparc 2 mounted on my pistol
(http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/imagejpg1_zps1baf6742.jpg)
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Thanks.....I think I'm going the sparc 2 route. Sweet set up btw. I may end up having them do the rail mount. The local guys here are backed up with hunting season stuff. I'll post a pic.
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Primary Arms will be coming out with a 7.62x39 version of their 4x ACSS prism sight in a month or two. I think that's what I'm waiting for.
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I really wanted/have been waiting for Primary Arms to re-release their 7.62x39/300 BLK option of this scope, but only the 5.56 option is still on their website, so possibly it's discontinued: https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_1_6X_Scope_with_Patented_ACSS_Reticle_p/paps1-6x.htm
FWIW, those Primary Arms Prism scopes (like Vortex Spitfire and the Burris Prism) are all essentially the same technology used by the acog minus the fiber optic daytime illuminator...
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The one I'm talking about is the 7.62x39 version of this optic... https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_4X_Compact_Prism_Scope_p/pac4x.htm Should be out in a month or so from what I've read and appears to be great value for the money based on the reviews for the .223/5.45x39 version.
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Yep -- that's the one.
Can you point us to the 7.62x39 intelligence?
This one should fit the VZ58 better than the longer 1-6x one that I've been waiting for my RPK...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGNBuxqk3ng
Primary Arms mentions future availability in the comments section.
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Awesome! Thanks much.
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I did not like the sparQ-- the controls were too easy to turn on and the button panel stick out and obscures your L eye vision if you are R eye shooter (for both eyes open shooting), and the threads on the covers were so fine, that the covers are hard to get on/off.
The Bushnell TR25 is my choice for a cheap optic, with better controls (single turret rather than buttons), sits low without need for a riser.
Anything else like an AR style RDS (Eotech Aimpoint) will sit too high if you use the original stock, you'll have to see if you can get a good cheek weld.
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Got the sparc 2 and it's a neat little package. My rifle is off at Czechpoint being drilled and tapped so no review of the entire set up yet. I've discovered that I have astigmatism and the red dot is a little blurry so this whole endeavor may be a waste of time if it ends up bothering me. Never knew I had it or even heard about this effect...bummer.
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Did you actually use it or just rotate it per instructions to see if you have astigmatism?
Generally, no human eye is perfect -- some are just worse to much worse than others.
The goal with any red dot is to focus the eye on the target, not the red dot -- you look through it, not focusing on the dot. Trying to focus on the dot like a front sight will make it blur to some degree for almost anyone since seldom is an eye exactly perfect. It's more a question as to what degree the brain is able correct for those visual imperfections and utilizing your tools properly to minimize those imperfections from becoming evident...
Basically, you can still be combat effective with a red dot despite astigmatism, and even with, you're likely still a faster, more accurate shooter with a red dot than irons.
More so for peep sights than our AK type sights on the VZ, but cowitnessing with irons sometimes also helps the eye to focus which clears up the red dot.
Also, if really bad, and you know you can use standard scopes, a 1-3 to 5 or 9x scope might be a better option.
I have astigmatism in my right eye, shoot right handed and am left eye dominant... I wear glasses when behind a computer working or reading (slight farsightedness [trouble focusing close] in right as well), but don't wear prescription lenses when shooting (in 30s, I'm sure that'll change as I get older) or playing sports. I use my left eye, right hand shooting, (cock head slightly) for pistols, but right eye and right hand for rifles. Red dots, I'm able to shoot both eyes open no problem, right astigmatism eye seeing the red dot. Skeet shooting, I should probably switch to left hand shooting if I did it seriously, and target shooting w/ magnification generally just close the left. And I self taught this way as a kid with BB guns before being properly instructed later than life, but by then the comfort and confidence despite being technically "wrong" has not led to me relearning to shoot as a lefty... Point being, vision problems aren't fun, but they can be overcome.
Had an optometrist describe astigmatism as like a magnifying glass focusing the sun. Perfect is a crisp small dot. Turning slightly to the side skews the image out of round. Moving far away makes it less sharp. These type of not perfect focus issues are essentially astigmatism w/ a red dot -- you lose that crisp round circle. Granted a lot of varying degrees and types of imperfections w/ astigmatism. But glasses and contacts can usually correct.
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RSR,
Great write up. I did the rotation test and it's not the dot. You are right, if you focus on the dot and not the target it really looks fuzzy. The optic is not mounted and used yet so I'll wait and see! Keep you posted.
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Did you actually use it or just rotate it per instructions to see if you have astigmatism?
Generally, no human eye is perfect -- some are just worse to much worse than others.
The goal with any red dot is to focus the eye on the target, not the red dot -- you look through it, not focusing on the dot. Trying to focus on the dot like a front sight will make it blur to some degree for almost anyone since seldom is an eye exactly perfect. It's more a question as to what degree the brain is able correct for those visual imperfections and utilizing your tools properly to minimize those imperfections from becoming evident...
Basically, you can still be combat effective with a red dot despite astigmatism, and even with, you're likely still a faster, more accurate shooter with a red dot than irons.
More so for peep sights than our AK type sights on the VZ, but cowitnessing with irons sometimes also helps the eye to focus which clears up the red dot.
Also, if really bad, and you know you can use standard scopes, a 1-3 to 5 or 9x scope might be a better option.
I have astigmatism in my right eye, shoot right handed and am left eye dominant... I wear glasses when behind a computer working or reading (slight farsightedness [trouble focusing close] in right as well), but don't wear prescription lenses when shooting (in 30s, I'm sure that'll change as I get older) or playing sports. I use my left eye, right hand shooting, (cock head slightly) for pistols, but right eye and right hand for rifles. Red dots, I'm able to shoot both eyes open no problem, right astigmatism eye seeing the red dot. Skeet shooting, I should probably switch to left hand shooting if I did it seriously, and target shooting w/ magnification generally just close the left. And I self taught this way as a kid with BB guns before being properly instructed later than life, but by then the comfort and confidence despite being technically "wrong" has not led to me relearning to shoot as a lefty... Point being, vision problems aren't fun, but they can be overcome.
Had an optometrist describe astigmatism as like a magnifying glass focusing the sun. Perfect is a crisp small dot. Turning slightly to the side skews the image out of round. Moving far away makes it less sharp. These type of not perfect focus issues are essentially astigmatism w/ a red dot -- you lose that crisp round circle. Granted a lot of varying degrees and types of imperfections w/ astigmatism. But glasses and contacts can usually correct.
Great description. My eyes are now 73 years old with exactly the same condition as yours. I will give you some hope as I still shoot sans glasses and the red dots work fine for me as long as I shoot without glasses.
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What about the Bushnell TRS-32 5 MOA Red Dot with Mount, AR731305 for $80 at PSA?
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/trs-32-5-moa-red-dot-with-mount.html (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/trs-32-5-moa-red-dot-with-mount.html)
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New 50,000 hr Primary Arms RD:
https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_CR123A_Battery_Red_Dot_with_8_hr_auto_p/pacrs.htm
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I'd wait until they have this one back in stock. https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Advanced_Micro_Dot_with_Push_Buttons_p/md-ads.htm
There's really no advantage to longer tubes on standard red dots. And this one doesn't appear to have the 8 hour auto shutoff either. (I dislike auto shutoffs and one of the reasons I stay away from the Vortex red dots.)
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What is the name of the quad rail on the pic please ?
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/imagejpg1_zps1baf6742.jpg (http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/imagejpg1_zps1baf6742.jpg)
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I'd wait until they have this one back in stock. https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Advanced_Micro_Dot_with_Push_Buttons_p/md-ads.htm
There's really no advantage to longer tubes on standard red dots. And this one doesn't appear to have the 8 hour auto shutoff either. (I dislike auto shutoffs and one of the reasons I stay away from the Vortex red dots.)
Hmm...I like that one, too. I might need another RD from Primary now..:)
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Cheesesteak, you can mount the rail yourself if you choose to, follow czechpoints instructions here
https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/receiver-side-rail?l= Or have your local gunsmith do it, if you do just have him follow the instructions from czechpoint.
As for the sparc reddot, you can't beat it. Comes with 3 different height mounts/2x magnifier/nv capable/small 2 moa dot. Relocation of on/off switch is a plus. I have the first gen for about 3 years now and still holding up, mounted on my rifles In 7.62x54r/x39/.308/5.56/.223/.22lr/3030. Only thing I changed was the battery once. Finding myself a vortex fan as I just picked up a vortex spitfire (great scope)with 5.56 reticle for my bullpup
Sparc 2 mounted on my pistol
(http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg544/sr16ve2/imagejpg1_zps1baf6742.jpg)
Is the height of the red dot on that set up comfortable?
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I'd wait until they have this one back in stock. https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Advanced_Micro_Dot_with_Push_Buttons_p/md-ads.htm
There's really no advantage to longer tubes on standard red dots. And this one doesn't appear to have the 8 hour auto shutoff either. (I dislike auto shutoffs and one of the reasons I stay away from the Vortex red dots.)
I've been giving that one the serious eye ball as well. I read somewhere that the auto shutoff on the Holosun HS403G was done to extend the life of the LED not the battery. That was the only way they could offer a lifetime warranty. I'm hoping the PA MD-ADS has a longer life LED, because it only has a three year warranty.
By the way the MD-ADS is now back in stock at Primary Arms.
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I had a TRS-32 on mine, on a Bonesteel upper rail. With low height rings it gives a lower co-witness with the irons. Battery life was OK if you remember to shut it off. Worked great for ~1000 rounds. Still works fine but switched it out for a FastFire3.
What about the Bushnell TRS-32 5 MOA Red Dot with Mount, AR731305 for $80 at PSA?
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/trs-32-5-moa-red-dot-with-mount.html (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/trs-32-5-moa-red-dot-with-mount.html)
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Even the previous generation red dots w/ battery life @ 5000 hours (medium setting I think) would run if left on for ~7 months w/o battery replacement. Still a considerable lifespan versus eotechs and the like.
I've just seen the headlines but Aimpoint is releasing a "value" option for their larger red dot:
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gearscout/2014/10/19/aimpoint-sneaks-out-budget-2moa-rds-carbine-optic/
http://www.guns.com/2014/10/21/aimpoint-launches-affordable-new-carbine-optic-red-dot/
Personally though, the CompM4 running AA batteries would probably have the same lifetime costs as this slightly cheaper option though... And I have plenty of rechargeable Eneloops to feed AA/AAA devices, though w/ an 8 year battery life on AA, it might make sense to run a lithium in them...
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Even the previous generation red dots w/ battery life @ 5000 hours (medium setting I think) would run if left on for ~7 months w/o battery replacement. Still a considerable lifespan versus eotechs and the like.
I've just seen the headlines but Aimpoint is releasing a "value" option for their larger red dot:
http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gearscout/2014/10/19/aimpoint-sneaks-out-budget-2moa-rds-carbine-optic/
http://www.guns.com/2014/10/21/aimpoint-launches-affordable-new-carbine-optic-red-dot/
Personally though, the CompM4 running AA batteries would probably have the same lifetime costs as this slightly cheaper option though... And I have plenty of rechargeable Eneloops to feed AA/AAA devices...
Eneloops? Must be a Steven Harris fan..lol. Great rechargables!
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Well I got my rifle back and set it up. I'll zero it in tomorrow. Really like the new rig. The red dot sits pretty high above the front post but I don't now where my POI is so thats going to change of course.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img912/6586/yWM42M.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img538/3084/7S8PhR.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img633/522/px2g05.jpg)
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Eneloops? Must be a Steven Harris fan..lol. Great rechargables!
One of my high powered LED flashlight brands recommended them. And I can get the bulk packs pretty cheap at costco. Googled steve harris and his info looks interesting. Will read when I have the time.
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Well I got my rifle back and set it up. I'll zero it in tomorrow. Really like the new rig. The red dot sits pretty high above the front post but I don't now where my POI is so thats going to change of course.
Nice part about fixed stocks is that you can use any standard stock wrap/cheek pad on them with raised optics if that's your primary...