The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ75, 75b, 75 SAO inc the Transitional => Topic started by: salsa on September 26, 2014, 06:46:51 PM
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So I really like my CZ 75 BD - so much so that I went out and bought a P-01. However, I've always had my eye out for a Browning HP as well and a LGS has one (the Mark III) in stock. I'm not going to sell either CZ, but since the HP is pretty expensive and I don't have the opportunity to actually shoot one, I'm hoping that those of you out there that either own both or have shot both a fair amount might be able to give me a comparison of the two.
Thanks
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I have a CZ Accu-shadow (highly modified Shadow which itself is a modified SP-01, while the SP-01 is just a railed version of the 75) and a Browning HP.
My comparison is as follows. The grip of a HP feels like a brick compared to the 75/SP-01/Accu-/etc. Not only does the HP have less magazine capacity, but the grip just feels unrefined over all. It actually has corners that dig into your skin. It's almost like the grip needs to be way more blended because the radius comes to a sharp corner so to speak. This is on the backstrap. I'm thinking a change of grips would possibly alleviate this problem. The trigger pull is heavy out of the box. It is single action so the reset is super short. However, the pull being so heavy doesn't offset how crisp the reset is in my opinion. That said, it's a nice shooter and deceptively light for an all steel framed, full size 9mm. Overall, I like it, but would not feel bad getting rid of it. I don't "love it" like my CZ. The HP is a classic design to me, but that's all it will be.
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There is a lot to like about the BHP, but nothing makes it better then a CZ. Out of the box a BHP will need work and parts just to get it acceptable. Once it is tuned the trigger can be awesome. I have shot several models and have a clone that has been tuned up but none of them were/are better than my CZs. Your mileage may vary.
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Owned both but not the HP for very long. Not a bad gun and it shot better than expected but the Cz fells and shoots better for me.
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I had a friend that asked me to work one over. I bought and installed some Cylinder and slide parts, removed the magazine disconnect, a bunch of stuff. When done, it still wasn't as comfortable to shoot as a worked over CZ. I didn't really like the trigger/sear/hammer setup in that gun very much, and the end result was some additional hand fitting of the aftermarket parts. It was an education, not bad, not exceptional, however. I would take a worked over CZ over a worked over BHP myself. Lots of people like them, however, so maybe my bias in favor of the more oval gripped CZ, sear cage and all, is showing here.
Joe
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Considering one can buy a CZ 75 B for half the price of a Browning Hi Power, or a fully Cajunized 75 B for a bit less than a Hi Power, it is hard to justify the latter unless one is collecting historically significant designs.
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I used to have a BHP that I enjoyed shooting. Once I got my first Cajunized CZ those all went away, never to return.
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I can't think of an area in which the BHP excels over the CZ 75, except perhaps in appearance:
(http://www.genitron.com/HandgunDB/DBImages/browning-hpm3.gif)
(http://www.genitron.com/HandgunDB/DBImages/cz-75-b.gif)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KHkXA5IhQ64/TxHjgnjkREI/AAAAAAAAA58/Pi9QqztVnGs/s1600/1.jpg).
And that's not clear cut.
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I have BHP since '86. I sent it to Ted Yost for one of his SRT packages. There is no one better to work on a BHP IMHO. It is one of my favorites. But comparing it to my CZ's can be disappointing. I have a Accu Shadow & PCR with CGW pro package with night sights. I have had a love affair with BHP for years. But I grab the CZ's more and more often then the BHP. I like the the PCR for carry and the Accu Shadow for range. The BHP is becoming a safe queen. Not sure I will ever sell it but I won't be buying any more of them. I could easily have a Pro Tek, a SP-01 Tactical, and a Rami for the sale of my BHP. That makes me think.
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Always thought I wanted one also so I bought a really nice clone. Anyone want a really nice clone for $400??
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heres my take on the BHP and CZ.
they are both great guns. if you can have them both or all, i would go for it.
but handling the BHP is like holding a 2x2 in your hands. The CZ not and the CZ feels like its made for your hands. At least thats my take on it.
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Thank you all for your input and advice. At about $1K for the BHP, I'm going to pass and have some custom work done on my CZ's.
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Look for Charles daly BHP model. They pop up every now and then between $350 - $500 and are a very good quality clone that uses standard parts for upgrades. I didn't want to drop a bunch of $$$$ into a BHP experiment. Figured I would try a clone first then if I liked it go all in. The used CD I got was nicely modified by the first owner and I liked it a lot. After I started shopping around for a "real" one and handling quite a few I came to realize what a gem I have. Also how much $$$ it would take to duplicate what I already had.
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I had Ted Yost do their Signature job on a Hi Power. It was disappointing but was what I feel is one of the best looking guns there is. So far the only advantage is some smiths will checker a Hi Power. I have yet to see a CZ 75B checkered .
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Cole's has a large number or FN HP-35 pistols on GunBroker - http://www.gunbroker.com/Semi-Auto-Pistols/BI.aspx?IncludeSellers=2621012
Prices range from $360-470 depending on condition.
My vote is "buy them both"
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I had Ted Yost do their Signature job on a Hi Power. It was disappointing ... .
(http://www.heirloomprecision.com/images/SG%20Hi-Power%202014.jpg)
You can send it to me and I'll take the burden off you.
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before cz added the firing pin block to the cz-75 the stock cz trigger was much better than the hi-power (the hp has a magazine disconnect that pretty much ruins the hp trigger). A 75 b out of the box is a little better than the bhp, though taking the disconnect off the bhp will make it's trigger just as good or better than the 75b.
I find the 75 to be more accurate than the bhp and it's mags hold 17 rounds compared to 13 in the hi-power. The 75's grip angle and shape are more comfortable than the bhp (to me, many people will tell you the exact opposite.. The hi-power is single-action so you will only be able to carry it in condition 1. The 75 is DA/SA so you have to option to carry it cocked and locked like the bhp or with the hammer down in double action mode.
They are both great guns and you can't go wrong with either one, though in my opinion the cz75 is the superior pistol. All things being equal, the main reason I would go with the 75 is because they cost 500 to 600 bucks brand new. A new browning hi-power will run you about 1,100 dollars.
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The BHP is a beautiful and functional weapon. It is a tad easier to conceal, but has some downsides.
The trigger MAY get pretty good after removing the mag safety. Maybe not. I did on mine, and it is a tad inconsistent. Sometimes it breaks light and clean and sometimes it is a bit stiff, and stages slightly. You need to know a REALLY good smith - who knows HPs.
Even B triggers are MORE shootable 90% of the time than the BHP - if nothing else, because in SA they are lighter. Also, the tiny and SHARP beavertail on my HP (MKIII) bites me. IF I refinished the frame, I would dehorn it there. I believe that the ergos of the CZ would be better for MOST shooters. The CZ is a tad larger and heavier, but not by much, and the CZ compact has the same capacity, is smaller, and about the same weight - AND more concealable. It is also a bit more versatile so you can do DA/SA, and you always have double strike capability. The CZ (PreB) also beats it in trigger reset. (The Canik beats them ALL - its almost Glock-like in reset).
Unlike the late GREAT Stephen Camp, if I had ONE, it would be a CZ, and in my case, my Avatar - a Transitional with an OTB trigger that is superb.
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As much as I like the Hi Power looks and history I shoot my CZ 75 much more than the Browning. I think the CZ is a great looking pistol also and in my mind is a modern version of the Hi Power concept. The CZ 75 has it's own history as well. I think of it as the 1911 of Europe.
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The BHP is a beautiful and functional weapon. It is a tad easier to conceal, but has some downsides.
The trigger MAY get pretty good after removing the mag safety. Maybe not. I did on mine, and it is a tad inconsistent. Sometimes it breaks light and clean and sometimes it is a bit stiff, and stages slightly. You need to know a REALLY good smith - who knows HPs.
I have a Mk III in .40S&W that retains the magazine disconnect and it has one of the best stock triggers I have ever encountered. The HP fits my hand perfectly, much like the P-01. There are great Hi-Power triggers out there.
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Mike
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FWIW: I'm NOT puting words in his mouth!, but I seem to remember some comments from David at CGW about BHPs. He "may" do trigger work on them---but I don't 'know' that . I would check with CGW if I were interested in having a BHP worked on.
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I've found the P35 to be one handgun that folks with all sizes of hands seem to like. Twenty nine years ago when first married my wife detested a SW M59 brick I brought home for her, so I bought a Kasner import FEG P35 clone. She loved the feel as it fit her hands well. Over the years it's been a reliable good plinker, primary home protection when I was away, general peace of mind for her. She once dispatched a three ft rattle snake that wandered through her camp when she was camping alone with our kids. Fifteen years ago I traded for an FN Israeli police trade in. Typical cop gun, carried a lot, shot a little. The paint finish looked ugly. I sent it off to Don Williams at the Action Works, he worked the trigger, installed a ring hammer, installed a CS ambi safety and refinished it in hard chrome with rose wood grips. Sweet pistol. During the bad old Clinton Assault Ban I could always find high capacity, NO, I mean normal capacity magazines for them at reasonable prices while having to pay big for other pistol mags. I agree that the CZ 75 is more modern having the DA and has other stated advantages such being more consistent with their triggers. Since both have steel frames they both have a nice recoil impulse in 9mm. My hands are on the large side with short fingers so my 75's don't manipulate as easy as the High Powers, especially in double action. What amazed me is I had a shift lieutenant that had huge hands, loved the feel of my CZ75 but stated that the P35 was one of best fitting pistols for him at the time. The offerings from Cole's will sure let you get into one with plenty left to customize to one's taste. Carry what you shoot well, shoot well what you carry.
Official Disclaimer: tcallre may or may not own any and all firearms discussed in the last few years on this or any forums. tcallre may or may not possess knowledge or opinions offered on this or any forums discussed the last few years. In fact tcallre may be nothing but a posing imposter trying to fool people into thinking he may be a gun guy but may be or not be a staunch supporter of current or future Glorious Leader.
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I've owned a BHP since the early 90's. Other guns have come and gone, but this one has always been a keeper. I've always liked the ergonomics on the Browning, and mine gets carried quite a bit in a Milt Sparks IWB holster and conceals quite nicely. I like to think of it as a 7/8th sized 1911.
The mag disconnect safety got removed a while back which improved the trigger, but it wasn't until I replaced the mainspring that I got down to a reasonable 4.5 lb pull (also took some polishing). The one downside to my BHP was during rapid fire the web of my hand would get pinched between the shaft of the hammer and the frame (probably combination of high hold and lack of a beavertail). So a GS friend of mine welded on a beavertail from a 1911's BTGS and that eliminated the hammer bite and greatly improved the already good ergos. He also undercut the trigger, and milled the slide to for the Heinie Slant Pro and a Dawson fiber optic front sight dovetails all of which made a great gun even better.
The corners of the mag's metal basepads can be quite sharp and I tore the sides of a couple shirts from carrying a spare mag on my belt. That was until somebody told me Beretta 92 basepads fit on BHP mags.
All in all, great gun.
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this is just my observations and how they feel to me.
holding the BHP is like holding a 2x2 in my hands. The CZ fits way better (in my hands). i like the DA/SA of the CZ vs the SA of the BHP. But both shoot great. the safety on the BHP is sort of funky in the difficulty in activating/deactivating it. Don't like the mag disconnect in the BHP but thats a minor issue.
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I've pretty much divested myself of most things 9mm (I did keep my SP-01 and P-01), but if I ever decide to add a 9mm, it would have to be the HP.
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Mike
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I have owned several HP's over the years including a pristine Inglis. All are gone now. The triggers were good on all of them but never beyond good. Compared to my CZ 85 and Shadowline the BHP triggers were all quite a bit less than good. The one redeeming feature was the grip. Sauve got that right and in 1935 the gun was "the gun" in 9MM. That said, 1935 was 89 years ago and a lot has been done since with firearms.
I don't think the gun would have the following it has except for the fact it was imported into the US as the "Browning Hi-Power". Lots think "Browning" (All accept for the Inglis were made in Belgium, now assembled in Portugal) made the gun and that John Browning designed the gun. He didn't although some of the work he did prior to his death in 1926 went into the finished product of 1935. Mr. Sauve, the chief designer for FN designed the gun known outside the US as the FN Hi Power or P 35. The French Gov'teven had a hand in one design feature - the mag dis-connect. A feature added to prevent the loss of magazine in war time. The French remembered the affairs with trenches from WW1.
Take Care
Bob
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I have owned the MK III Hi=Power and pre-B and well as B 75's.
Have had many of the clones of both. CZ = TZ, Tanfoglio, Canik.
Hi-Power = FEG and 1 FM, Charles Daly (which is a FEG as well)
What I can say is I love the History of the Hi-Power.
But, I love the accuracy, mag capacity, lower slide, of the CZ.
The BHP wins the grip feel department for me. (that's about it)
But the lack of hammer bite, trigger slap, and increased accuracy + price point put the CZ on top for sure.
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Took some earlier advice and sent my 75BD to CGW. Just go it back and as good as it was before, its like a whole new gun (for the far better) now. Very happy that I put some of the money I would have put into a new HP instead into improvements in my 75BD. Thanks to all for your input.
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Sounds like you made a good choice!
If you ever get the Hi Power bug again, check out Stephen Camp's website, particularly useful may be his piece on the CZ75 (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/CZ75.htm).
I like both, but the CZ75 trigger bugs me out of the box, just how I shoot and how the gun fits me. I need the short reset and reduced reach kits from either CGW or CZC. I don't need that out of the box for the Hi Powers. So that kinda evens the cost, except that CZ's are getting so expensive now, my last CZ75 cost more than any Hi Power I've ever purchased (but then again, I'm not biting at the $1,100 hype guns either).
Both strike me as very utilitarian service weapons, both can be had for less than a typical entry level 1911, both are reliable and shoot very well.
Teaching the women on target groups, I do find, most folks fit the hi power better than the stock 75 while I'd agree that of the two, the 75 is more suited to a higher grip.
Anyway, I got a 75 about to head back to CGW, hope you enjoy your newly gussied up CZ!!
Probably my four most used handguns:
(http://www.gopherprints.com/files/CZsAndHPsLo.jpg) (http://www.gopherprints.com/files/CZsAndHPs2Med.jpg)
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HPs are cool, but, IMHO?. they are cool for their history and as a par t of a collection. The old ones can be very beautiful and some of the deep gloss bluing is fantastic. If you want a shooter for the range, competition, etc. CZ 75s are more comfortable and can be made to have excellent triggers.
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I have two BHP's and a CZ 85B. I have bought my son a CZ 75B and my son in law a CZ 75 Compact. Sorry, my youngest daughter is 14 so if you think you want a free CZ you will have to wait several years. ::)
I noticed someone posted a picture of mine where the BHP and the CZ are on a towel. :)
My point about telling you what I got my children is this, when money is a determining factor and they don't have any handgun, I go directly to the CZ. I even showed a neighbor some of my handguns and recommended the CZ and he went and got a CZ 75B. He had to take a handgun for official training (he is the prosecuting attorney for the county) and the trainers were very impressed with the CZ and hadn't had anyone show up before with one.
Yes the triggers are different between the two firearms, but to me the trigger doesn't matter unless it causes unacceptable practical accuracy. For people with smaller hands the BHP is an option when the CZ is just too large. That is the reason I have the CZ 85B that I purchased, a local kid had bought it and found that his hands were just too small. His mistake saved me $75.00. 8)
The CZ 85B is my range gun and ready for defense if needed. My BHP's are the primary home defense setup, each ready to go and ready to go into a 72 hour kit in case of evacuation.
I am saving up to get a custom CZ pistol soon. That will be a treat.
My advice is if you want a BHP then get one. I wouldn't sell mine unless I had too, and since I have two of them I would actually sell the CZ first because the having two pistols the same means you can use one for parts if something breaks on it.
I find their practical accuracy the same. I do not find the triggers to be of an consequence, but maybe I am better than some for trigger control. Even though I just turned 51 I still lift weights four times a week, jog, and play some rough basketball games, so I have good hand and wrist strength. Not bragging, just saying that the difference in the triggers don't matter to me and I think those are the reasons why.
One of the BHP's in action:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZmCLU09sgfg/VDXi4Y4FSJI/AAAAAAAAFJI/oc7CLy-1DS8/s1600/New%2BFiring%2BSet%2BReport%2B5.png)
The CZ 85B in action:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Qy1vbpGVpsE/VDnCzmfxZOI/AAAAAAAAFKE/peKC553GxXg/s1600/New%2BFiring%2BSet%2BReport.png)