The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: dernt on October 03, 2014, 11:00:03 PM
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Has anyone used the guy on gunbroker that does the left hand charging handle conversion, or does anyone have a good source for this mod?
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I'm told that the only one you want is the pinned and welded handle, like the the stock bolt carrier handle, that only one manufacturer in the Czech Republic does.
It's now illegal in the EU to sell bolt carriers to civilians and you need a special export/military license to acquire. I'm looking into these via an importer, but probably won't be acquiring until next year.
VZ58rifle.com on their Czech language site, still has these listed.
Reason why is that welds break, and even here in the US there have been incidences of lightning VZ58 bolt carriers (another provider, they do AKs also) that have handles on both sides, only the left is welded as they start from original bolt carrier, where the handles have detached and broke faces if happening on recoil rather than return to battery. Here's a return to battery story: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?99537-VZ-58-bolt-carrier-(alternate)-replacment-question
Just fyi, the reason VZ58s have smooth left sides per original military configuration is that it was an original design requirement. Their left sides were intended to be smooth so as to not tangle in web gear/kit while rifle was carried on a sling... So for a CQB weapon on a single point sling (such as for law enforcement), left hand charging handles makes sense, but perhaps less so for a general purpose weapon that won't always be carried at the ready, perhaps less so.
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Are bolt carriers interchangeable without affecting headspace? Seems like someone in the US could produce these the right way without having to import them from the Czech Republic?
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NEIT Amrs in Canada used to do a double sided bolt carrier, but the original bolt carrier is made of VERY hard metal, and the addition is quite difficult. I think they might still be available through either NEIT or NEA up in Canada, and legal for import into the US...but I'm not 100%
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I can't see how a professionally welded piece of metal on the left side would be prone to coming off...
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I am not a metallurgist, welder, gun smith or even a reliable car mechanic - just repeating what NEA told me when they offered these things a few years ago. If you can do it, go for it and let us know how it works, would ya? :)
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I am not a metallurgist, welder, gun smith or even a reliable car mechanic - just repeating what NEA told me when they offered these things a few years ago. If you can do it, go for it and let us know how it works, would ya? :)
To reiterate, I've heard the same thing -- the only one's worth buying are the drilled and pinned ones. Looking at the original that handle might actually be cast in place (I figured it was pinned due to indent on top of handle nob but looking closer at mine, it could just as well be cast) , but I don't feel like dremeling one off just to inspect. If you do, please update.
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I will open my mouth cause I AM a welder.
I have seen those lightning carriers and they are SH*T, no offense to actual lightning which IS the sh*t. I won't lie, I was nervous myself the first time I made my own charging handle(welded). But it has worked very well since the day I did it. Roughly 2500 rounds later, it's still there, and awesome.
Could it break off?
Maybe. Install it in your rifle, take it up five flights and drop it out the window onto pavement and it might break off. But a better I idea just popped into my head. A more accurate test of its durability would be to uninstall it, place it on my garage floor and hit it repeatably with a standard home improvement type hammer. :) IF I get enough requests for me to destroy my own carrier with a hammer I will video tape it and upload it to "the" You Tube for everyone to watch.
It could be just the science that this conversation requires, what happens when modified carrier meets "hammer and concrete"?
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Also, and I am not trying to bust anyone's balls here, BUT if I can successfully weld a tab and it works great, why couldn't I weld on a charging handle with similar results??? Or for that matter, think of the world and how many wonderful things out there are welded together, your taking two similar metallurgical components and making them one.
I'm not trying to say yay or nay, ANYTHING is subject to failure. Mine's welded, I was apprehensive at first but now I think nothing of it, cause it works very well.
Final thoughts, I wonder just how much external stress the carrier is under, my guess is, it's not. Internal stress is an entirely different subject and hard to determine, I once dropped a disconnector a simple disconnector and I bleep you not, it exploded. Not two or three, but four pieces, dropped about four feet onto a concrete floor and blew up. My guess is that it had been cooled to quickly and had become brittle.
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I'm sure metallurgically you could find a method to get both the carrier and handle to meld/weld together successfully. What that would take I don't know.
And I've been told by retailers that have tried them all and know far more than me is that the only ones they'd sell or consider buying/worth the money based upon past experiences are pinned and welded ones. Personally, I have no experience w/ any of them, nor am I even remotely qualified to be a welder/metallurgist...
Ultimately, the whole piece of steel flying at my face at however many miles per hour the bolt carrier recoils to the rear at makes it not worth it to me to risk a welded only option. I like my teeth and don't want to risk unknown quality manufacturing with relatively high margins of error/failure (per the not pinned and welded advisement from the experts)... YMMV.
I actually believe I encouraged you to offer a reverse carrier at one point, but considering AKs and galils, etc, with charging handles on the right, I ultimately decided all things considered to leave it alone for my needs. However, if you have created a system that you know that works, I'd absolutely prefer to see a US based business -- and forum member -- make that available over importing. Keep us posted.
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RSR, is that a vote for "hammer and floor"?
LOL
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Try shooting southpaw once in awhile and the urge to modify will dissipate.
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Haha. No -- not advocating you destroy your bolt carrier or at least not that you try to. For me, a relatively standard manual of arms has me leaving the bolt carrier configuration as is across my VZs. I think the only time I might reconsider is if I decided to do a home defense/CQB custom build rather than a general purpose carbine -- most of my rifles and bolt guns have right side charging handles, so I decided a more standard manual of arms is probably for the best.
Best I can gather the problem is that the welds typically develop microfissures or I guess has them from the start which over time have caused the weld to fail. Again, not an expert on welding so don't know if it's a material issues, a hardness issue, welding technique or lack thereof, etc, that's caused previous failures. But probably not an issue that would be manifest immediately after building and then beating on it -- possible, but it strikes me more that weld weakness increases over time until just ultimately completely failing.
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I've had welds placed on my subframe and trailer, and I don't see how this can come off by typical use. The reports are probably of guys who used a home garage welder, or just a poor weld- or just fake reports.
BTW the "Tab" is spot welded in place.
I think a nice Tig weld would hold this quite permanently. The question would be if the heat would distort it negatively. If I decide to do this, I'll let you know (I would buy a spare bolt to do it on).
Tavors, Augs, Scars, HK's all have left side charging handles. There are aftermarket conversions for AR and AK rifles too. The downside is having that handle poking you in the chest if you fall on it.
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The FN FAL and G3 are the only latter half of 1900s (1950-1999) mainstream small arm systems that I can think of that had the left hand charging handle. Any others? (Stg44 had originally as well.)
The latest generation of rifles with most having hand charging handles, or at least ambi/switchable side charging handles, really seems to only have become a "must have" after the latest Iraq War and all the CQB fighting that American soldiers faced in that conflict. Same can be said for the switch from DI (less reliable) to piston systems (more reliable).
Yes support hand charging handles are great if you're changing mags during the fight and get back into action ASAP, but not really if you're carrying your weapon around all. They're also a detriment to transitions if you have any sling other than single point (and even then there's a good chance of handle to the crotch) and want to throw the weapon behind you to get to your pistol.
Essentially, Iraq in my mind really shaped the operational mindset how our troops fight and the best setup for weapons and tactics. There wasn't a lot of walking there. Most operations were vehicle mounted and most high speed operators spend a few hours in danger zone before being back to the relative safety of controlled access base with little to no likelihood of needing to defend themselves there. Basically, operations there more resembled a law enforcement type of operation where we set the time, place, and number of conflicts and the only time our soldiers didn't was when they were in armored vehicles traveling to the set time and place... I think this can also be seen with the current obsession with SBRs (even M4 carbine length barrels) in 5.56 despite the very real and proven disadvantages of 5.56 bullet performance at lower velocities.
Point being, if you're foot mounted light infantry carrying a massive ruck or at a small forward operating base, always at potential danger, always carrying weapon and in a state of semi-readiness due to constant threat (but not mounted to shoulder as you make a forced entry on your own timeline), not needing to quickly get in and out of vehicles (the primary why behind the switch by Army service-wide to M4s), etc, you have very different weapon requirements and might be willing to make different compromises insofar as what's important to you.
Frankly, there was a lot that tried to be ported from lessons learned and ways of fighting in Iraq by soldiers and leadership into Afghanistan in 2008 that didn't work... Point being, every mission/specific use would have a different definition of optimal. So you try to choose which is best across your most likely scenarios and minimize negative attributes of those "improvements" in the less likely scenarios...
To the point, for high speed type offensive operator weapon configuration (or even for 3 gun and the like), I think the left side charging handles make sense. For a civilian that just wants a rifle to carry around on a sling while working the farm or walking the woods, it probably doesn't.
For me, the deciding factor was to have, as much as possible, the same manual of arms for charging the weapon across all systems. I can't afford to switch/configure all my rifles (and if you're going to be shooting family/friends or even battlefield pickups, conceptually you'd want theirs to be the same as well), so I decided to leave as is as the standardized manual of arms should probably be as quickly as being confused about which side the bolt handle is on under stress. My thought process. YMMV.
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A thoughtful reply RSR.
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Email to me from Dan at Czechpoint :
If you do purchase one from somewhere, be sure that the handle is screwed into the bolt carrier (not welded to the bolt carrier only). Reason: Bolt carrier welded handles can break-off/detach during shooting and cause injury. How do I know? Dave at Neit Arms (now closed) in Canada had experimented with welded handles and one detached and broke his eye socket. Screwed in handles is a must.
In addition, you really need to check headspace to ensure a replacement bolt carrier does not cause a headspace issue. It usually does not cause a headspace issue, but it can happen and you need to check with headspace gauges.
We appreciate your business.
Good luck.
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So even though this is story is oft repeated, I think that a proper weld will work pretty well. ;)
Again, there are no bolts or threaded fasteners holding my trailer frame together, nor the joints in my rollcage, nor engine subframe- just weld points.
I have an empty shell case pounded onto the tip of one of my AK charge handles- and that thing has been on on for years and I cannot wiggle it-- I just can't imagine a welded piece being thrown off. I haven't decided to do it, but if I do, I'll let you know how it goes.
The fellow that does tab welding on this forum, said he could do it, but I have not decided to do it.
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CP -- thanks for the update!
Glad to hear I'm not just overly cautious!
Also, two other reasons for the left hand charging handle that I forgot to mention initially are
1) the sight picture -- so as to not occlude your view/vision out of your left hand eye,
2) similar to #1, but so as to not have the movement close to/in front of your left hand eye cause a distraction and/or flinching when shooting...
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UPDATE!
My self made left hand charging handle broke... :(
It was just an experimental piece/welding job and it did last roughly 3,500 rounds. I never saw it fly off, just went to charge my vz and there was nothing for me to grab... :(
I know I could have done better craftsmanship but I probably wont try it again.
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UPDATE!
My self made left hand charging handle broke... :(
It was just an experimental piece/welding job and it did last roughly 3,500 rounds. I never saw it fly off, just went to charge my vz and there was nothing for me to grab... :(
I know I could have done better craftsmanship but I probably wont try it again.
Lucky you still have both eye sockets left in your skull. Charging handles should be tapped and screwed into the carrier first and then welded. Post about this in the forum.
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So glad forced March is OK!!
Be careful people, crap happens, wear safety glasses!
My SKS left side bolt carrier is going no where, and I would like something like this on one of my vz's but the angle is different on a vz
(http://i1378.photobucket.com/albums/ah113/harrellfamily2010/120CC43A-08EF-4813-A2B3-B7F5B5D65BAA_zpsmrawcrhv.jpg)
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Lets get this straight... Charging handles on these types of carriers should be tapped and threaded into the carrier (then welded).
That SKS charging handle looks to be threaded into the carrier - is that correct? I have removable charging handles on other 7.62 rifles and even have installed (probably foolishly) the Tromix large knurled charging handles over several Kalishnikov style rifles, and had a left side NON-reciprocating handle on an AKM from a FAL that was built into the top dust cover.
The removable charging handle (on a SIG) is attached into a slot and held in place by a spring loaded lock. The only reason its removable is for removal of the "AR type" bolt carrier. It is light and secure when locked in place.
The Tromix charging handle cover for AKMs is attached with a huge metal pin that you screw down onto the original handle with a big honking allen wrench and with RED lock-tight. I inspect them every time I shoot the gun(s) and I still don't' trust them not flying off, even though I have never heard of a problem. I am always tempted to take them off.
The non-reciprocating left side FAL handle built into the AKM top cover, is "non-reciprocating" and worked by grabbing the front of the bolt carrier with a tab when pulling the charging handle back. The mechanism rode in a welded track inside the top cover, but stayed forward and actually the handle folded flat during cycling of the action. Never feared for it removing the left side of my face.
I am not trying to be a dick about this, but this is deadly serious shieza! I posted this quote from Dan once before and I will post it again since it does not appear to be remembered:
...If you do purchase one from somewhere, be sure that the handle is screwed into the bolt carrier (not welded to the bolt carrier only). Reason: Bolt carrier welded handles can break-off/detach during shooting and cause injury. How do I know? Dave at Neit Arms (now closed) in Canada had experimented with welded handles and one detached and broke his eye socket. Screwed in handles is a must.
"...broke his eye socket.." thats not something you leave the range from and stop off at McDonalds for a Quarter Pounder on your way to the emergency room to have your head stapled back together.
One final quote from Forest Gump:
Momma always said: Stupid is as stupid does.
ForcedMarched almost became ForcedSquint -- he should have known better, IMO.
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The folks selling this service on gunbroker only weld them on as well... So buyer beware.
Additionally, I believe the lightning double handle carriers are the exact same deal.
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I have experimented with drilling/screwing/pinning left hand charging handles. And I'm now offering the service for $160. Not the cheapest service but if needed, now atleast there is a repeatable provider. Photos will go up in a week or so to my add.
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So why does the handle break? Lots of things are welded and if done correctly can be as strong as the metal (so I have read anyway). Is it the power of the bolt slamming the carrier open / closed?
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Probably an alloy mismatch or something... All I know is everyone in the know from the Czech Republic to the US says that the only left hand charging handles not putting you at risk for facial injury are the screw in then weld ones.
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Thanks RSR. I had not thought of that and it makes sence as being a possible reason.
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Hello! I'm new to the forum and found it through a search for this particular topic, so I'm resurrecting an old/dead thread. I hope I'm not out of line by doing so.
This is particularly directed to Forced March, as I am interested in obtaining a left handed/handled SKS bolt carrier. Being new, I'm still looking around and figuring out how to navigate and message. I am failing on the messaging part.
So, if Forced March is still doing these conversions or if anyone on the forum is familiar and could recommend someone who does the conversion, I would greatly be appreciative!
I am updating a SG Works Bullpup for left handed use. Shoots well, but being a lefty, I've taken the bolt to the face more than once and I would like to stop that.
Thanks!
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Hello! I'm new to the forum.....
Welcome from Georgia.
Please take a few moments to familiarize yourself with all the sticky posts in the 'New Members' section. Together with the Help Topics in the 'Important Information !' or 'FAQ' sub-section, these include 'how tos' such as 'how to' post pictures on the forum.
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Hello! I'm new to the forum and found it through a search for this particular topic, so I'm resurrecting an old/dead thread. I hope I'm not out of line by doing so.
This is particularly directed to Forced March, as I am interested in obtaining a left handed/handled SKS bolt carrier. Being new, I'm still looking around and figuring out how to navigate and message. I am failing on the messaging part.
So, if Forced March is still doing these conversions or if anyone on the forum is familiar and could recommend someone who does the conversion, I would greatly be appreciative!
I am updating a SG Works Bullpup for left handed use. Shoots well, but being a lefty, I've taken the bolt to the face more than once and I would like to stop that.
Thanks!
I don't know if he's still doing welding services, but this is/was his firearm-related email: forcedmarchfabrication@gmail.com
You can't message forum members here w/o a certain # of posts. Likely covered in the link the mod just posted.
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Thanks to Wobbly for the familiarization guidance for the forum! I'm on a few similar forums and each seem to be just a bit different in its layout and styling that if you are familiar with one, the next isn't the same. I'll get there!
Thanks to RSR for the email lead. I will reach out to him via that email and see.
Meanwhile, I will continue to nose around and get more familiar with this forum! Cheers!
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Also keep in mind that in certain positions, you can regret a left sided fixed charging handle. Your fingers or thumbs can get schwacked.