The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: ShortyBP on October 20, 2014, 03:03:28 PM
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Bought my first VZ from J&G. Figured it was a great deal (at the time) and was surprised how much I liked the rifle. Being more of a AR fan, I wanted an "AK Style" rifle for the collection, and while it's not an AK... the VZ seemed to be a better rifle for same/lesser cost. Win-win, in my mind.
Had a hiccup right away... it was missing the ejector. But a quick part order and a whack of a hammer and that was resolved. About the time that part arrived and was installed, AIM Surplus had em for $499 with 5 mags, which seemed an even better deal than J&G. Grabbed one of those.
Now, due to schedule and availability... I only get to shoot once every 4-6mos (horrible!). So on my initial outing, the J&G rifle had the gremlin, and the AIM rifle kept getting Tula cases stuck in the chamber.
So I sent the carrier out to be tabbed on the J&G, and scrubbed the chamber of the AIM. During the downtime, I also installed Bonesteel handguard set, AFG, PA Micro and FAB grip on the J&G.
Next range trip, was only able to bring the AIM rifle... and Tula cases continued to get stuck. Scrubbed it out again and tried switching ammo, all I had at the time was Brown Bear. No hiccups. Didn't get a single stuck case. Happy camper!
Several more months pass by, and PSA offers the same package as AIM but for $399! I hem and haw whether I should get a 3rd rifle, and just when I decide to follow through... they sell out. Thankfully, they got more.
Grabbed one, and it came with a nice leather sling (pleasant surprise). All five mags appeared unissued.
Interesting enough, it appears CAI contracted with a different machinist for all three receivers. Stamping is different on all three.
I swapped the folding stock for a fixed one, wiped the packing oil off and threw it in a case. Off to a friends property out of state to give all three rifles a workover.
PSA rifle was great out of the box. Had to adjust the windage (AK front sight tool), and I'll need to go back and also adjust elevation a bit... but it didn't give me a single problem.
AIM rifle also behaved for me. Sights were spot on. It didn't choke once, despite the fact I was once again shooting Tula (Herters).
J&G rifle... irons still need major adjustment, but I'll get around to it. Red dot is doing the job for now. This one has a BAD case of the gremlin. But the baffling part to me is... out of all three rifles, it's the ONLY one with a tabbed carrier. Despite that, it won't reset every 3rd round. Even when I manually cycle the action and load the next round out of the mag... it won't reset. I have to drop the mag, and cycle the rifle on an empty chamber... and then I can pull the trigger (dry fire) and it'll click. Otherwise... pull the trigger and nuffin. I'm sure it's covered in one of the several threads on the topic... but anyone have a Cliffs Notes on what I should try to remedy this issue? Aside from tabbing the carrier, since it's already tabbed. :)
All in all, I love these rifles. Happy to have one in three configurations (needlessly tacticooled; standard folder, standard fixed). Bought the Slovak brakes for all of them, next on my list is rear peep aperture of some sort... as I absolutely despise notch/blade sights. Hoping I can procure and install a few (and fix the gremlin) before my next range trip... sometime many months from now. :(
Also going to try my hand in reloading the steel cases. I've done steel 45ACP before without issue... but that was boxer primed. Have the RCBS decapper, have Tula berdan primers, have a spare hand priming tool to modify for berdan use... just need more time and patience to make it happen. :)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o171/shortybp/1413831129.jpg)
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Nice collection. Did you try dropping one of the other bolt carriers in the gremlin gun to see if they might work?
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Dangit. That would've been the smart thing to do!
Now I'll kick myself all winter for not doing it. :) Might have to make a special trip to the indoor range just for that sole purpose.
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Good, I'm not the only one....
I have #1 and #2 from AIM in my safe, just ordered #3 from PSA a few minutes ago.
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Don't use Herter / Tulammo. That stuff is garbage. I had problems
with that junk ammo in an SKS. It doesn't extract well and the bi-metal
jacket causes faster ware on barrels.
Do all your rifles have the same Disconnector?
Cause some of the older vz2008 have the original
Czech Round version and not the American Slanted
and will some kind of adjustment like adding a modified bolt carrier.
Does the Czech Point / CSA bolt carrier have the Tab added?
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That leather sling appears to be hungarian, I wonder how it got mixed in with the vz2008?
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My first one, from PSA, was shipped today. I am hoping for the new arrival this Friday...:)
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PSA issued random AK slings w/ the VZ2008s that I got from the tail end of their ~5k stock...
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I like the leather better than the green nylon, although those are nice too. The leather one looks more military surplus grade than consumer.
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Does the Czech Point / CSA bolt carrier have the Tab added?
Yes it does
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Don't use Herter / Tulammo. That stuff is garbage.
Unfortunately, I bought a couple cases of the stuff. But I certainly won't be buying any more once I use it up.
Do all your rifles have the same Disconnector?
Cause some of the older vz2008 have the original Czech Round version and not the American Slanted and will some kind of adjustment like adding a modified bolt carrier.
It has the round disconnector... and the thing that puzzles me, is that I have modified the bolt carrier, yet the problem persists.
Here's some pics of the "guts" from my three. Top is the problematic one... the bottom two have not exhibited any hints of the hermex/gremlin problem. As you can see, one of them has the angled disconnect and the other is rounded. Neither of the bottom two have modified carriers, but have not had a single instance where pulling the trigger resulted in nothing (well... except when I forget the safety is on).
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o171/shortybp/210216.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o171/shortybp/210230.jpg)
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All bulk Russian ammo uses bimetal jackets. At less than 1/2 the cost of the copper jacketed stuff. You'll save enough to rebarrel multiple times in the lifetime of just your current barrel.
You can send your rifle out for nitriding if you want to get ahead of the curve. For me, it'll be worth it only when I rebarrel...
There are a couple different types of gremlins. The tab eliminates the main one. So it's pretty safe to say it's related to the disconnector. (Possible a sear grinding/angle/wear issue with catching the striker but doubtful.) The trigger groups sometimes have side to side play that affect the disconnector/sear engagement. Try moving your trigger group side to side and see if that causes the disconnector to not engage the sear with with the cover off (safety on fire).
Also try to see if your safety is walking out as well. That can sometimes cause. The groove in the safety has to align with the disconnector which has to align with the sear.
The other possible cause is the protrusion on the sear that catches the sear has some issue. Try swapping your sear w/ one of your other rifles. If that alone fixes, email Century and ask for a replacement. CNC warrior sells as well.
More on gremlins here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63408.15
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Thanks RSR!
I'm not at all worried about the bi-metal jackets or related barrel wear. My personal issue with Tula is that it was jamming up in my chamber, whereas other brands of ammo used did not. I will continue to use the Tula I have left, as it's perfectly fine for range use. But once I burn through it all, will stick with other brands just for peace of mind... as I don't want stuck cases if/when it counts.
Trying to schedule a range trip to try swapping out bits from the rifles to see if it solves the problem. Before that, I'll check for side-to-side play. Glancing at the parts, I don't see any noticable differences in the sears on all three rifles... but it certainly remains a possibility. I'll go with CNC should it be a problem.
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You can also adjust your trigger by tapping the trigger pin slightly to the left or right to better align w/ your safety groove as well.
With the roll pin setup on the VZ2008s (part Czechpoint lawsuit, part ATF), it just puts tension on the trigger pin... I found when I installed the pin all the way in it created issues similar to the gremlin and had to back it out slightly. But you could find the issue when testing the trigger w/o firing...
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Sounds to me like the Disconnector that is pinned into
the trigger is binding up. That might be moving around and getting
stuck.
It's got to be that and or the safety.
So the only way to find out is to take a trigger from a working rifle
and swap it out and see if it fixes the problem. If it does then you know it was
just that trigger on the J&G bought rifle.
But if it still continues to have problems you could always sell it off
to one of us and we'll fix it. ;D
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Thanks guys! JDA... I'm one to cling to even my most despised, inoperable firearms. :P
Still haven't had a chance to hit the range to try any of the fixes... but just messing with the rifle itself, there's no side-to-side play in the trigger, the safety seems properly aligned with the disconnector. I also cannot replicate the gremlin while manually cycling, with or without the cover. Manually pull the bolt back, and it catches every time like it should.
One anomaly I did observe, was that my pistol grip screw was protruding pretty far into the receiver. Not sure if this was getting in the way of the trigger mechanism feather? I added a couple washers so the screw would be flush/hidden.
Beh. So no obvious causes as of yet.
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I hope to never again buy Tula ammo, I have a ton of it and can't get rid of it fast enough, 1 out of 30 rounds sends the bullet a quarter of the way down my barrel, I have to then beat it out with a stick. :(
To me, it sounds like something is loose, I mean I agree with everyone so far, but it could be so many additional things. Alot of good answers, if those don't work, try swapping whole components, dust covers, pistons, carrier assemblies. Make sure to remember which one goes where. :) I once had a VZ that literally jammed every other shot, EVERY OTHER SHOT!!! I fixed it, and it has never jammed again. Can anyone guess why???
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thanks guys on the Tula update, I almost bought 1K of Tula ammo, and was still thinking of getting some till this thread. :)
my brother in law said he liked Red Army a lot so I just got 1080 round case of it with FMJ bullets, to add to my 1K of brown bear SP and my 1K of wolf military classic HP.
however;
I still would like to pick up a few more K just because it is not that costly now.
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I was using Tula this past weekend without one problem. 200+ rounds among 4 VZs.
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As far as the Gremlin, try just letting the trigger all the way back out. These rifles have exceptionally long resets and if you don't get a bang it may be because you haven't reset the trigger. It happened to me at first with rapid fire, and even with paced fire a couple of times, until I got used to it. It could be that the reset on that one rifle is slightly longer than on the others.
The next time you get no bang, stop and instead of reracking as you would with the true Gremlin, let the trigger all the way out and try again. This may help you narrow down the problem and avoid going in circles. If it's a lack of resetting the trigger, then you will get a bang, and if it's the true Gremlin, you'll have to rerack it anyway. It's unusual to have the carrier tabbed and have the Gremlin persist (although I've read one or two accounts).
thanks guys on the Tula update, I almost bought 1K of Tula ammo, and was still thinking of getting some till this thread. :)
my brother in law said he liked Red Army a lot so I just got 1080 round case of it with FMJ bullets, to add to my 1K of brown bear SP and my 1K of wolf military classic HP.
however;
I still would like to pick up a few more K just because it is not that costly now.
Please update the Red Army as you shoot it. I bought 1080 of the unsealed Ukrainian rounds. Had 6 duds out of the bunch, with heavily dimpled primers, with two different rifles that had no issues before or since.
The only stove pipes I've ever had were with Tula. Thousands of rounds of Golden Tiger, Wolf, and brown Brown Bear of all flavors have had zero problems.
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Between my ak and my vz I have shot at least 1500 Tula rounds. I even run it in my ar without any issues. I do prefer Wolf.