The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: son of a gun on October 20, 2014, 11:10:01 PM
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Talked to Chris at Bonesteel Arms today, was told that they completed 100 hand guards and they had contacted 80 people who had orders in. He said that if they don't hear anything within two weeks they will start contacting people who had later orders. Now if they sell all 100 sets, they won't have the next batch done until June or July of 2015. I'm in no hurry to part with my cash so I will wait.
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Seems like if I had 80 "orders" for a product with a 6 month resupply period, I would make more that 100 items.
I am really glad that I found a used NEA/Troy set here on the forum. There is no way I would wait 3 to 18 months in order to buy an item from a manufacturer.
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All I know is I'm calling him pronto in the morning, thanks for the heads up.
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Wow, that is major BS. >:( And horrible business practice/malpractice.
I backordered in July and have not been contacted.
I'm running the traps to see possible alternatives.
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I also backordered in July and have heard nothing, hummmm
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Similar scenario here. I emailed them back in July asking the ETA (was told they would get a new batch in September) so I placed an order Aug4th and asked for updates here and there. I'm sure they stay busy, being a small business, but this news is a bit of bummer...
Gunzz, were you able to get any confirmatory word from Chris?
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No, got an answering machine at Bonesteel, left a voicemail and emailed him too.
That was 24hrs ago, no response as of now.
I just called CNC as I wondered if they might have produced some for their own online store.
Gal said they shipped all units to Chris, they have zero at CNC.
She talked to him this morning, she said he's giving it a few more days to contact everyone.
She was courteous and says she's getting calls/emails I wasn't the first, I felt sorry for her to be honest.
Following conversation with CNC, I went over to bonesteel site and ordered two sets of hand guards figuring (gambling) someone will cancel.
I want to get two sets of upper/lower and brakes/flash hiders so we have one pair of VZ setup with RDS/cowitness.
We have matched 5.45 Tantals with RDS/cowitness, and for 7.62 we intend to have a pair of exact match VZ setup the same.
Just different caliber on folding platform.
That's the plan anyway........
I ordered a third VZ from PSA Monday, that one I think will play with fixed stock on it, generally putz around with it, more of the classic look.
Plenty of shiny M67 to feed the little beasties:-)
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Gunzz,
Thanks for that update. Hopefully some will no longer need theirs and cancel. Otherwise not sure what other railed co witness option is available since NEA rails seem OOS.
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I doubt CNC Warrior will allow a potentially substantial source of revenue to pass them buy -- bottom line, Bonesteel's ordering strategy is screwing them out of revenue I'm sure they could use. They're a small shop, but good folks.
I'd encourage folks to keep reaching to them and expressing interest. I don't know all their legal mumbojumbo w/ Bonesteel regarding this item that he designed, but if he doesn't have retail exclusivity, they can probably sell through their store.
I conveyed an interest in possibly doing a group buy for this forum (they've done that for product runs with other forums), mentioned the number of VZ2008s sold this year (over 12.5k, not including OOW, ORF, and CSA rifles), and that I was pretty confident they could sell a 250 run w/in a month and 500 run w/in 3 months. And if they can't do a group buy, even just selling through their online retail store would be amazing (sure Bonesteel would make commission off of those too, if allowed).
I also mentioned that I was backordered since July and Bonesteel supposedly contacted everyone for his 100# order just received... And I also mentioned his comms issues (links to some of the many -- anyone heard from/bonesteel still in business threads here), which is completely opposite how CNC Warrior does business.
So yeah, keep pinging CNC Warrior and let them know you'd like to buy the VZ58 forend rails and hopefully we can get it moving.
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I got a email notification of product from bonesteel last week, but it was too late. I got tired of waiting for an update, and no response to queries, so I did not re-enter my Feb order.
For those who want an upper handguard rail for the VZ58, take a look at Precision Reflex #02-VZ58-- very tight fitting top rail with option to add side rails, very solid aluminum and steel construction- solid enough for optics.
pri-mounts.com Made in Ohio too!
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Cciman,
They don't charge until they ship right? Aka my CC shouldn't have been hit with a number right? Also, is that precision reflex rail allowing you to cowitness?
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Unlike the AR, the concept of "co-witness though the optic" with an AK style rifle is not existent. The design of most AR sights, even the irons, are raised above the level of the barrel- with the barrel the same level as the stock comb. The AK-VZ design places the sights as close to the level of the barrel but drops comb of the stock below the barrel. In order to "co-witness" a optic would need to mount below the level of the sight. A paradigm shift is needed with AK style guns- thus the challenge in optic mount designs.
Most AK style optic designs attempt to have you look at the stock irons UNDER the optic mounting. The huge downside of this concept is that your head will be too high for proper cheek weld if you are using an optic. The VZ seems to be different to me- the stock comb on my gun is actually too tall for iron sight use- more designed for a very low mount optic.
Cciman,
They don't charge until they ship right? Aka my CC shouldn't have been hit with a number right? Also, is that precision reflex rail allowing you to cowitness?
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Unlike the AR, the concept of "co-witness though the optic" with an AK style rifle is not existent. The design of most AR sights, even the irons, are raised above the level of the barrel- with the barrel the same level as the stock comb. The AK-VZ design places the sights as close to the level of the barrel but drops comb of the stock below the barrel. In order to "co-witness" a optic would need to mount below the level of the sight. A paradigm shift is needed with AK style guns- thus the challenge in optic mount designs.
Most AK style optic designs attempt to have you look at the stock irons UNDER the optic mounting. The huge downside of this concept is that your head will be too high for proper cheek weld if you are using an optic. The VZ seems to be different to me- the stock comb on my gun is actually too tall for iron sight use- more designed for a very low mount optic.
I disagree.
The VZ58 was made for moderate stature/malnurished/not fully grown folks (both men and women of military age, teenager plus) in Eastern Europe, Middle East, Asia, and Africa.
The key to using this, like the AK is
1) Proper stock mounting -- bring the rifle to your head; high stock mount and roll shoulders forward:
Exact timestamp: http://youtu.be/x-fDRqPeCwc?t=2m46s
http://youtu.be/x-fDRqPeCwc
2) Due to the way the stock angles, you're still going to be too high up (close to the receiver) on the stock. That's why the stock pads, or spacers (VZ58 rifle.com sells them and I have about 1" on a fixed folder on one of my rifles too that does the same), are pretty essential if wanting to best utilize irons.
(http://www.centerfiresystems.com/images/products/detail/VZ58WOODD.1.jpg)
See here for my thoughts on the stock pads: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=64902.msg438206#msg438206
Highly recommend this one over the UTG for the metal stock: https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/products_id/2519
UTG for fixed stocks.
I have two actually.
This one is a softer rubber: http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Model-Combat-Butt-Pad/dp/B002TUSK06
This one is a harder rubber but comes w/ a strap: https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/products_id/2519
Slightly different grip nubs on the back too, so possibly one is for wood stocks and one is for for folders?
I put the strap on the softer rubber one since I decided that the softer provides better recoil absorption but YMMV. First had the softer and decided I wanted to try one with the velcro strap for a cleaner look than the paracord I'd been using...
Update:
Looked at the Apex one, it came in a guntec USA package: http://guntecusa.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_85&product_id=254
The Amazon came in a UTG package, so look like different products.
FSE's page tells you more about it being modeled after a soviet grenade launching buttpad (and theirs might be a third addition, or the same one guntec is repackaging):
http://www.fseusa.com/product_info.php?products_id=339
(http://www.zahal.org/files/images/products/CSA/vz_butt_pad_1.jpg)
I got one of the buttpads like Zahal is selling on ebay (here is an example: http://www.zahal.org/products/butt-stock-pad-for-original-vz-58-folding-stock?path_parent=153451 )
Basically, it's cheap somewhat soft plastic like bargain brand tupperware lids. Maybe adds 1/8-1/4" to the length of pull. Other than the small nubs for grip, I really don't see the point. It allows the stock to fold and looks more substantial in pics, but save your $.
My advice is to go w/ the Apex one above for the folding stock. Higher quality, better made, and cushions recoil but w/o all the bounce of the softer one. I'd recommend only running the softer UTG one on your fixed stocks as the Apex one with a more scalloped stock attachment hole and being denser rubber is less likely to fit.
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I agree that co-witness on the AK used to be a problem, but now in 2014 there are several solutions from several companies.
I have a side mount PKA Venezuela on my Bulgarian AK74, co-witnesses through the optics beautifully:
http://russianoptics.net/PK-A_Venez.html
On my Tantals that don't have a side rail, I run a Texas Weapons Systems top cover with Primary Arms RGBII rds, again co-witnesses through the optic:
http://www.theakforum.net/forums/106-primary-arms/165361-new-tws-dog-leg-scope-rail-primary-arms-md-06-bundle-limited-quantity.html
In the FAQ at www.primaryarms.com they have a link for "co-witness explained", here's a pic from that FAQ link:
http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af303/James7800/cowit1-1.jpg
Wanting to co-witness on my VZ's, we apparently have a single source of supply solution with the Bonesteel products. At least from my searches here that seems to be the case, I found a thread where RSR says NEA/Troy (which is nla), or Bonesteel are the options. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.
Bottom line, there are several co-witness through the optic solutions for AK owners, apparently only one such solution for us guys in the VZ corner.
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Troy is no longer available.
Northeast arms is, but you have to order from Canada.
Troy was ~$200 with 2 short rails included.
NEA from Canada comes w/o rails, so it's about $270 US plus shipping if you go that route and need 3...
NEA's online store, primary retail outlet:
http://www.theammosource.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=14_288_290&zenid=46281af888c92773c3d0d0b4bf082ffd
Set is out of stock there, but someone on here ordered recently from these folks: http://www.kellysonline.ca/products/nea-aluminum-handguard-for-vz-58
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Got an email from Bonesteel saying they will have another batch in late December.
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Same as above. Yay.
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Still haven't heard from them... :o
Ordered the latter half of July.
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RSR we heard back because we sent an email requesting an update. Atleast I did
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Yes, I did that too. Guess I'll email them again.
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Mine arrived last week, I think I put my first order in about a year ago.
But you know what, it was worth the wait, since the quality and craftsmanship of this item is beyond any of my expectations.
I have no insight into Chris' P&L, but we can all rest assured that any commercial activity for us VZ58 owners should be considered 'niche', as opposed to the gravy train provided by the AK and AR platforms. Most probably that is also why he outsources the production for the VZ rail.
Net, I think we should all be happy somebody is still wanting to go out of his way to take care of us, just my humble opinion.
If this is not your primary rifle, my suggestion would be to wait.
Good luck !
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The reality of the situation is that American consumers don't wait.
So while it's fine if Chris decides to take that approach for his own company and if he was the only one losing sales, but as is he's screwing over CNC Warrior that is a small company working on small profit margins and frankly has capabilities that Chris doesn't insofar as cost effective construction is concerned. CNC Warrior makes all of his stuff and also makes a lot of niche stuff for various more obscure weapons systems, so in effect, by constraining their profit and cash flows he's also limiting the amount of further R&D they can do to bring more new and interesting stuff to the firearms market.
I suspect that this latest run update is due far more to our appeals to CNC Warrior directly than Bonesteel. IMO, he needs to stick w/ designing, take a profit for every item he designed is sold, and let CNC Warrior handle all the retail portions of his business. His customer communications and inventory management are nothing short of terrible...
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With all respect, but there are a lot of non substantiated assumptions in your statements, good thing this is not part of an earnings release. As mentioned, we do not have insight in Bonesteels' P&L, nor CNC Warrior's. Without knowing what minimum order quantities are, fixed versus variable cost a production run, etc... it is hard to make any credible statements about this.
The reality of the situation is that American consumers don't wait.
So while it's fine if Chris decides to take that approach for his own company and if he was the only one losing sales, but as is he's screwing over CNC Warrior that is a small company working on small profit margins and frankly has capabilities that Chris doesn't insofar as cost effective construction is concerned. CNC Warrior makes all of his stuff and also makes a lot of niche stuff for various more obscure weapons systems, so in effect, by constraining their profit and cash flows he's also limiting the amount of further R&D they can do to bring more new and interesting stuff to the firearms market.
I suspect that this latest run update is due far more to our appeals to CNC Warrior directly than Bonesteel. IMO, he needs to stick w/ designing, take a profit for every item he designed is sold, and let CNC Warrior handle all the retail portions of his business. His customer communications and inventory management are nothing short of terrible...
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Don't know what's "unsubstantiated." First two are facts, and third is opinion/recommendation based upon known facts. To be clear, I'm not on here to bash Bonesteel. I'm a big fan of CNC Warrior. And I like Chris' designs/products. I don't like his customer service or communication or inventory management (or lack thereof).
1) US consumers by and large want instant gratification. Consumer marketing is predominantly built upon that behavior. If a product that they want isn't available, 9 times out of 10 American consumers substitute the next best/closest to rather than wait. I'm very particular about things and will wait, but I'm an exception to the rule on most things and realize that...
2) Private companies can do what they wish. But it's unfortunate when those decisions not only harm consumers due to lack of product availability but also harm the US manufacturing base that supports the retailer... If even one person who would have purchased a bonesteel item opts for another foreign manufacturer due to lack of availability (I know for a fact that has happened, I'm one of them), then there has been harm to that retailer's suppliers. If CNC Warrior knows of immediate demand and immediate sales upon completing production, like any manufacturing business, they'd produce enough on the first run rather than retooling and setting up for their next project and then wasting production time by setting up to run the job again a month later -- yes CNC Warrior has a minimum but like most things production, the higher quantity you run the lower per piece cost so the higher per piece profit...
3) Bonesteel does not proactively update customers on product availability and is ridiculously hard to reach. To the extent of folks posting on these boards asking if he's even still in business -- and "fraud warnings" on other forums (like the AK ones) -- the only efficient way folks have resolved in a normal manner is directly w/ CNC Warrior (example: http://www.theakforum.net/forums/22-optics-accessories/170848-bonesteel-arms-stock-issue-resolved.html ). His wait times for products are absurd. He told us he wouldn't be offering next batch until June or July of 2015. After a bunch of us contacted CNC Warrior, suddenly a batch will be available in December. Draw your own conclusions, but it looks like CNC Warrior has taken the lead and implemented their usual awesome customer service and demand-based inventory best practices that has led to DIY builders as well as the "best of" "niche" weapon system builders like Jeff Miller/TennGalil using their products exclusively for their builds...
Insofar as to what we know about CNC Warrior, there is a lot of corporate research out there on P&L approximations based upon marketplace data regarding corporation credit ratings, etc... You just have to search for it.
CNC Warrior is the firearms business of Derita Precision Machine Company. They employ ~20 machinists (~10 years average experience so they keep competent staff on board) and have less than half that in front office, customer service, and fulfillment personnel. Approximated annual revenue between the two is $10-25 million annually. And most of their corporation officers are also the folks you talk with when call and need something, so it fits the small business profile of active owner management.
I have dealt with CNC Warrior for a few years now with receiver group buys and various parts from their online store. Group buys that haven't pulled through in the past at the promised rate have negatively affected their cash flow -- this is a small profit margins company whose entrance and rise into prominence in the firearms industry largely coincided with all the 922r regulations. They were about the only ones consistently putting out affordable and quality US made 922r products. And that base has allowed them to continue to expand and offer new and interesting product parts, upgrades, and accessories. The ability of small businesses to R&D is ultimately tied to revenue and profits as unlike massive corporations or startups spending others money, they can't afford to suffer fiscal year losses or else they can't make payroll, let alone do anything else...
Regarding Bonesteel, I have no idea. BUT I can't find any LLC listing on the corporate database listings and/or name conflict on Michigan Department of Commerce website. So it's probably jsut a sole proprietor where he threw the LLC on his website... If Bonesteel was a DBA name for another LLC, he likely couldn't legally use "LLC", uncertain of exact Michigan laws though and definitely can't use the legal term "LLC" if he's DBAing himself. But regardless, Bonesteel's business setup, beyond its functional inadequacies on our customer experience side, isn't germane to any of the points I made.
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Chris contacted me and my rail has shipped, I ordered in early July so their is hope.
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Ordered July 13. Got a call tonight that mine should ship tomorrow.
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I ordered mine in September, and he said he was hoping to have mine by December. Seems optimistic based on their past turn around times, but we'll see. Let us know how you guys like them!
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Well, into the 20s of July apparently. My order is on its way.
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I was Aug4th... Seems like I'll be waiting through December at best... :/
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I ordered mine in July, it shipped yesterday-November 20.
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Troy is no longer available.
Northeast arms is, but you have to order from Canada.
Troy was ~$200 with 2 short rails included.
NEA from Canada comes w/o rails, so it's about $270 US plus shipping if you go that route and need 3...
NEA's online store, primary retail outlet:
http://www.theammosource.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=14_288_290&zenid=46281af888c92773c3d0d0b4bf082ffd
Set is out of stock there, but someone on here ordered recently from these folks: http://www.kellysonline.ca/products/nea-aluminum-handguard-for-vz-58
bleep, I wonder why they discontinued it. Was such a cool product. I really dig mine. I guess it's a collector's item now!
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B/c it was made before the VZ2008s really came onto the market...
And once Czechpoint started being the exclusive retail outlet for the CSA VZ58, the # of those guns seem to have gone down, or at least reduced in overall distribution...
So they essentially discontinued right about the low point of the market due to not enough demand.
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Just installed my Bonesteel Arms furniture on my rifle. The install was pretty effortless, the directions are very well illustrated. I did have some problem with the bottom hand guard, which required some nice taps on the piece with a rubber mallet. I ended up reusing the original roll pin, but had to pull it out and start from the opposite side, then use a small cleaning tip from a M-16 cleaning kit, by pushing inside the pin so as to line it up with the hole in the receiver and it went right through. Talk about tight tolerance's. Now to install the Zendal mag release and i will be close to completion of my VZ 2008.
I had ordered in July initially and they canceled my order, so had to reapply and they shipped it straight out. My guess is that most people who ordered in the past should get there product shipped pretty quickly.
when i figure out how to post photos I will include some of my rifle in the near future, I really appreciate the forum and everyone who contributes to it. It has really helped me out!