The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: melsauto on January 18, 2015, 07:37:11 PM
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Hello everybody i own a CZ 75B Omega i shot 50 rounds of Federal Ammunition champion Aluminum 9mm luger $10 per box of 50 with no hitch.I bought five more boxes for firing in the coming week for range use. Why do i read a lot of controversial statements about aluminum cartridges. I would like to know if any one had bad experience with this type of ammo.
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mel,
Along with mine, "just SOME" guns may have a problem extracting the aluminum cases. A long time back, My 75B had the problem--1 per mag or more would jam do to failure to extract--. I put in an extra power extractor spring and the problem was fixed for another 100 (?) rds or so, but I never bought aluminum cased ammo again for insurance. I also started reloading my own, so I only use brass cases as aluminum isn't good for reloading.
I found the radius of the groove at the case base (where the extractor claw rides) had a slightly shallower radius than brass. Aluminum is a little less malleable than brass, and doesn't like tight bends. This is "what I supposed" caused my problem with MY 75B. Others had zero problems with it, and it shot well.
If it runs, shoot it and smile. ;D
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The 9mm has been harder to find around here, so I now have 3 boxes and need to try it out soon.
On the other hand, the .45 ACP is plentiful at $15/box of 50. I have fired 5 or 6 boxes of it through my .45s and they love it.
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Welcome aboard !!
^^ What he said. ^^ If it shoots good in your gun, then have at it. However, a goodly number of CZ owners love shooting their gun so much that they turn toward reloading as a way to enable their hobby. The first step toward the possibility of reloading is to collect the spent brass cases. This ammo precludes this possibility.
;)
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Welcome aboard !!
^^ What he said. ^^ If it shoots good in your gun, then have at it. However, a goodly number of CZ owners love shooting their gun so much that they turn toward reloading as a way to enable their hobby. The first step toward the possibility of reloading is to collect the spent brass cases. This ammo precludes this possibility.
;)
Thanks all i want to do is target practice and not reloading, this answers my question thanks.
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The 9mm has been harder to find around here, so I now have 3 boxes and need to try it out soon.
On the other hand, the .45 ACP is plentiful at $15/box of 50. I have fired 5 or 6 boxes of it through my .45s and they love it.
Thanks for your input just trying to pay less and shoot more.
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Thanks all i want to do is target practice and not reloading, this answers my question thanks.
You're certainly welcome.
Thanks for your input just trying to pay less and shoot more.
And how do you think each of us got into reloading? Your "pay less and shoot more" is exactly how !!
The difference is that you're banging away with a different brand of ammo each week (some good, some not so good) at $10 per box, while most of the people on the Ammo board are banging away with ammo that's been accuracy optimized for their gun at a cost of $5-$6.50 per box.
Just saying. ;)
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Thanks all i want to do is target practice and not reloading, this answers my question thanks.
You're certainly welcome.
Thanks for your input just trying to pay less and shoot more.
And how do you think each of us got into reloading? Your "pay less and shoot more" is exactly how !!
The difference is that you're banging away with a different brand of ammo each week (some good, some not so good) at $10 per box, while most of the people on the Ammo board are banging away with ammo that's been accuracy optimized for their gun at a cost of $5-$6.50 per box.
Just saying. ;)
I agree entirely ;D
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115 gr FMJ bullets (500): $60
Bullseye Powder (1 lb): $21
Small Pistol Primers (1,000): $31
With a 4.6 gr. load of Bullseye, this comes up to a per 50 cost of $8.24. Throw in either shipping from Midway or tax locally, and suddenly I'm above $9.00 per box. Which doesn't even factor in the cost of dies.
If I did reload 9mm, it would be simply to save money. But I can find brass cased 115 gr FMJ at a cost of $9.95/50. So I'm still wondering how this is economically a cost savings without buying components more in bulk (which I'm not interested in doing right now).
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I reload with polymer coated lead 124gr bullets which are $260/3600 bullets and with Federal primers and SR7625 (3.8gr) and it's just over 10c per shot.
This load is more accurate than any factory ammo I could find (other than some hollow points which were over a dollar per shot!) in my CZ's.
I've already payed off the grand that I spent on the reloading stuff by the savings in ammo.
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115 gr FMJ bullets (500): $60
Bullseye Powder (1 lb): $21
Small Pistol Primers (1,000): $31
With a 4.6 gr. load of Bullseye, this comes up to a per 50 cost of $8.24. Throw in either shipping from Midway or tax locally, and suddenly I'm above $9.00 per box. Which doesn't even factor in the cost of dies.
If I did reload 9mm, it would be simply to save money. But I can find brass cased 115 gr FMJ at a cost of $9.95/50. So I'm still wondering how this is economically a cost savings without buying components more in bulk (which I'm not interested in doing right now).
I'm not criticizing your ammo preferences, just commenting on your component cost statements..
Midway is NOT normally a place to buy components.
Bullets:
115 gr FMJ high quality bullets can be found easily at 9-10 cents each or less than $100/thousand "SHIPPED" to your door--also includes JHP. The more you order generally lowers that price.
124gr bullets from the same approximate cost to a penny or two more each.
Primers can be purchased with some 'shopping for less than $30/thousand.
Powder prices don't necessarily reflect the "PER Cartridge" Costs. Some very good powders can load a great range or competition load at 4.0-4.2 grains of powder. 1 pound is 7000 grs = 1700 - 1666 cartridges.
High quality 115gr plated bullets can be ordered for a penny-three cents cheaper also shipped free to your door in lots of 2 thousand and even cheaper for larger quantities. +No travel cost or tax for you. As said above lead and coated lead bullets will lower these costs quite a lot.
Keeping your brass and picking up what you can at many ranges can be totally free. I've never bought a piece of 9mm brass.
Like bullets, ordering a larger quantity of HAZ-Mat powders and primers incurs NO additional shipping charges + you likely will avoid paying any "State" taxes on these supplies.
Even at 9 cents each bullet, the cost is $9.00/100 rds --say of 124gr JHP target bullets with loads tuned for top performance in your pistol (s).
Will you save money? Not likely. You will shoot twice as much with much better ammo for the same costs.
The price of the equipment needed to reload is based on how much you want to shoot. With equipment appropriate for your shooting needs, payback/break even point is always less than a year of shooting, sometimes much less.
There is nothing wrong with your preferences as long as decent cartridges are always available to buy. MANY times lately and in the past, that's just NOT the case.
Just saying.
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I reload with polymer coated lead 124gr bullets which are $260/3600 bullets and with Federal primers and SR7625 (3.8gr) and it's just over 10c per shot.
This load is more accurate than any factory ammo I could find (other than some hollow points which were over a dollar per shot!) in my CZ's.
I've already payed off the grand that I spent on the reloading stuff by the savings in ammo.
Which reloading eqipment are you using and here doyoubuy the casings etc.
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115 gr FMJ bullets (500): $60
Bullseye Powder (1 lb): $21
Small Pistol Primers (1,000): $31
With a 4.6 gr. load of Bullseye, this comes up to a per 50 cost of $8.24. Throw in either shipping from Midway or tax locally, and suddenly I'm above $9.00 per box. Which doesn't even factor in the cost of dies.
If I did reload 9mm, it would be simply to save money. But I can find brass cased 115 gr FMJ at a cost of $9.95/50. So I'm still wondering how this is economically a cost savings without buying components more in bulk (which I'm not interested in doing right now).
I'm not criticizing your ammo preferences, just commenting on your component cost statements..
Midway is NOT normally a place to buy components.
Bullets:
115 gr FMJ high quality bullets can be found easily at 9-10 cents each or less than $100/thousand "SHIPPED" to your door--also includes JHP. The more you order generally lowers that price.
124gr bullets from the same approximate cost to a penny or two more each.
Primers can be purchased with some 'shopping for less than $30/thousand.
Powder prices don't necessarily reflect the "PER Cartridge" Costs. Some very good powders can load a great range or competition load at 4.0-4.2 grains of powder. 1 pound is 7000 grs = 1700 - 1666 cartridges.
High quality 115gr plated bullets can be ordered for a penny-three cents cheaper also shipped free to your door in lots of 2 thousand and even cheaper for larger quantities. +No travel cost or tax for you. As said above lead and coated lead bullets will lower these costs quite a lot.
Keeping your brass and picking up what you can at many ranges can be totally free. I've never bought a piece of 9mm brass.
Like bullets, ordering a larger quantity of HAZ-Mat powders and primers incurs NO additional shipping charges + you likely will avoid paying any "State" taxes on these supplies.
Even at 9 cents each bullet, the cost is $9.00/100 rds --say of 124gr JHP target bullets with loads tuned for top performance in your pistol (s).
Will you save money? Not likely. You will shoot twice as much with much better ammo for the same costs.
The price of the equipment needed to reload is based on how much you want to shoot. With equipment appropriate for your shooting needs, payback/break even point is always less than a year of shooting, sometimes much less.
There is nothing wrong with your preferences as long as decent cartridges are always available to buy. MANY times lately and in the past, that's just NOT the case.
Just saying.
I appreciate your time and information i am 61 years old and like positive criticism, i work six days a week leave home at 7.15 am and return home at 7.15 pm, my only day off is sunday. I may do it in the future first i have to cut down my working hours .Can you give me an idea of what equipment i should buy mostly 9mm 124 grain , i would rather spend more and buy good equipment than buy cheap. I have my own business auto repair shop in Orlando Florida.
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I reload with polymer coated lead 124gr bullets which are $260/3600 bullets and with Federal primers and SR7625 (3.8gr) and it's just over 10c per shot.
This load is more accurate than any factory ammo I could find (other than some hollow points which were over a dollar per shot!) in my CZ's.
I've already payed off the grand that I spent on the reloading stuff by the savings in ammo.
Which reloading eqipment are you using and here doyoubuy the casings etc.
I used for a long time brass that I had shot before and picked up at the range or brass that was given to me. I've only ever purchased 2000 cases that were once fired for less than $60 shipped. I'll be able to reload these 10-15 times so at the minimum 20,000 rounds will come out of the $60 in brass. (less than half a cent per case)
I use a Dillon RL550B with Lee dies. A Dillon powder scale, cheapo digital calipers, Frankford arsenal tumbler, frank ars. bullet puller.
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I just bought 4 boxes of this to shoot on someone's property where I was concerned about digging through tall grass for my brass. My 75 Shadowline had one failure to extract about every other mag. My HK VP-9 failed to extract every other shot. :o
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melsauto,
You will probably find reloading worth your while IF:
1) You want to shoot more than you do now (most reloaders spend the same or more than those who don't, but they get to shoot many more rounds per year
2) You have good attention to detail (you can blow up guns and your hand if you don't)
3) You can find the time in your busy schedule to do the reloading. A progressive press like gdawgs has will be much more efficient than my Lee Classic Turret press, and my press if more efficient than a single stage press. I may graduate to a progressive press one of these days.
I go through periods where my family needs me more, and I can't reload as much as I'd like. But I thoroughly enjoy the art of making my own ammunition.
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? Your price schedule seems to be out of date. 1SOW is right about Midway. Great website for product research; poor place to shop.
? Most of the reloaders here are shooting 124gr which is inherently more accurate than 115gr. Some of the reloaders here are even shooting 135gr and 147gr for the lighter recoil. Three comments would be that a) you are therefore comparing apples to oranges, b) I last bought 124gr from Rocky Mountain at 7.9 cents each, and c) try finding low recoil "target" 147gr anywhere. If you want those last items, then you must reload.
? I've been buying primers at $27/K for about 7 months now without tax or shipping. I generally refrained from paying over $30/K during the "drought". I have recently seen primers at Powder Valley for $25/K in 5000 piece lots. The prices are definitely dropping.
? Powder remains a sticking point, but at 7000 grains per pound powder remains the cheapest of the components. Even at your price it contributes less than 2 cents per round.
? Like the others, I have NEVER purchased 9mm brass. In the beginning I did buy some WWB in order to reap the high quality brass to feed the reloader. But in the last 6 years the supply line has been choked with piles coming in from local indoor ranges, gun clubs, and local police range. Anyone that's semi-aware of their surroundings is usually submerged in 9mm brass within the first 6 months. It simply seems to be everywhere you look. And reloaded to "target" grade seems to last through about 20+ reloads.
? It's the recycled brass that actually pays for the equipment. About 2/3 of the price of any ammo is the brass case, which is completely recyclable. (I have one piece of brass dated 1943 !) Use the realistic price of $6.50/50 and subtract that from your current price. Multiply that difference in price by your weekly volume. Multiply that by 32 weeks (8 months) and I think you'll get a good idea of how the savings compounds to pay off any equipment really fast. I bet that payoff time period beats any equipment in your shop !! As a business man, you'll see that the payback is astoundingly fast.
? Entry level equipment might be the Lee "Classic Cast Turret". Moderate level might be the Dillon Precision "Square Deal". All out, high-end equipment might be the Hornady "Lock N Load AP" Each successive suggestion having a greater price indicative its greater speed and flexibility. A person with little time but more money might opt for a faster machine right off, seeing as how his spare time IS money.
Choice of a machine is therefore highly personal seeing as how it's based on your personal volume and your financial situation. IMHO, any person that says "it's gotta be so and so" is highly presumptuous. However, 30 minutes of honest consideration will usually narrow your choices to 2 machines, and from there a good choice is easy.
Thanks for your interest. ;)
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Just for comparison regarding pricing...
My cost was $14/100 buying plated bullets and VV powder online and over priced primers by the 1K locally. My costs include shipping but not equipment or tools.
This was just prior to/just post Sandy Hook when prices had already started to rise, and then went pear shaped due to availability.
I still think it's worth it.
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It's easily worth it in terms of price, but it's more than that. It's rewarding in its own right. It's its own hobby, separate from shooting, but related.
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It's easily worth it in terms of price, but it's more than that. It's rewarding in its own right. It's its own hobby, separate from shooting, but related.
This is very true.
The equipment is so quickly paid off that it's quickly forgotten. Then comes Pride in shooting your own ammo, with its inherent greater Accuracy. Accuracy leads to more shooting Enjoyment and greater Pride. It's a vicious downward spiral from there.
;D
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Something else to consider, and my personal motivation for handloading, is that when your loading for your specific chamber/s, with a good load combination it is possible to load better than even "Match" ammo, rifle or handgun.
In my case, I learned the hard way in the early days of Blazer Aluminum cased ammo in 9mm. I bought a box where it was rather easy to push bullets deeper into the cases. Never a good thing made even worse with higher pressure cartridges. Set-Back can be disasterous in any cartridge. I'm sure manufacturing techniques have improved since then but aluminum is still aluminum. It has neither the tensile strength or elasticity of brass.
If you believe there's any chance that you'll become a handloader, start saving your brass, and you'll be surprised at the number of shooters that leave the fired cases from their factory loaded rounds lying on the ground.
We have a new wrinkle to consider also where people might not want to load cast lead bullets, or have experienced leading in their barrels when they did. This is usually the result of the bullet not being properly over-sized for the barrel's groove diameter, and some don't like the smoke caused from the lube burning off when the round is fired. Poly-Coated bullets of good quality, and what I've used has been, eliminates these issues. If you get smoke using a poly-coated lead bullet, its the powder you're using and not the bullet.
This is just my practice, but the only jacketed bullets I buy are JHPs. FMJ from the same manufacturer is going to cost close enough to the same that I have no need for them where I just used a similarly shaped cast-lead bullet in the past, but rarely worried about it. I like SWCs in anything and RNFPs as well in .45 ACP where you can load them to match JHP load recoil for practice, or lighter for just plinking, but that's typically where I use a SWC and for target loads. Poly-coated bullets can be extremely accurate. The first I loaded in 9mm were from Blue Bullet Co. and were the 125 gr. RN-SWC type that they unfortunately discontinued, but they're still available from SNS Casting. This might be of particular interest for CZ shooters because above the bullet shoulder, diameter is reduced and doesn't touch the lands, so they can be loaded longer. I loaded mine at 1.142"/29mm but I did not shoot them from a CZ pistol. I've just always liked that particular style for 9mms. Working up, the loads just got better and better until I got to 6.2 grs. of True Blue and 1122 FPS with an extreme spread of 12 and a standard deviation of 3. Accuracy is as good as the stats so there was no point to go further.
Another advantage is that poly-coated only cost pennies more than plain cast lead and less than plated. Most manufacturers rate the poly-coating to 1500 FPS which covers a good many cartridges from large to small. If you see different colors on them at different websites, no need to be concerned. Most all of them are using the same coating from Australia that can be made in whatever color specified. In this case, the SNS poly-coated are gold in color, I suppose to look more like copper or brass. I also like the fact that they cut down on your direct exposure to lead and before poly-coated became available I tried to buy moly-coated cast whenever possible. The Blue Bullets are excellent as well, they just discontinued my personal favorite style of 9mm lead bullet. Some of the vendors have started using molds that eliminate the unnecessary lube groove that some perceive as an advantage. To me, it makes absolutely no difference if they have a groove or not for autopistols. If they do, that just means slightly less bearing surface/friction and just about all types of FMJ shapes can be found if you like, or truncated cone.
Years ago when S&W manufactured ammunition, they actually introduced the technology with the Nyclad HPs which they later sold the rights to Federal to manufacture. I always wanted them to become available to the handloader. Fast forward 20 years or so and now we have them, and yes, I have asked Blue Bullet Co if they will add hollowpoint versions in the future and they are considering it if they haven't already done so. The advantage being that the alloy can be matched to the velocity range for excellent expansion capability while eliminating the need for a jacket. ;)