The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: Old Rocket on February 01, 2015, 12:23:15 PM
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In April 2014 I purchased this P09 thru Damascus (great company) recieved it and my son took it because he wanted to shoot USPSA.
I have plenty of guns so didn't miss it. He shot but said couldn't hit anything. He added CGW parts including the dawson sights.
About 2 months ago he gave it back and I was taking to the range to get it ready for USPSA Limited minor wanting to add the Magwell and mag extensions.
When sighting it in the rear sight has to be moved too far to the right and at first I thought I could live with it but NO it really bothers me and if I went to sell it I wouldn't buy it. So I am contacting CZUSA to see what can be done. Has anyone else had this problem? I have other guns so this is not my eyesight being off.(http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/old_rocket/IMG_0436_zpsc9c8f9bb.jpg) (http://s800.photobucket.com/user/old_rocket/media/IMG_0436_zpsc9c8f9bb.jpg.html)(http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/old_rocket/IMG_0433_zps14bcdc1d.jpg) (http://s800.photobucket.com/user/old_rocket/media/IMG_0433_zps14bcdc1d.jpg.html)(http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/old_rocket/IMG_0440_zps7b593f54.jpg)[/URL[URL=http://s800.photobucket.com/user/old_rocket/media/IMG_0437_zpsc778079c.jpg.html](http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/old_rocket/IMG_0437_zpsc778079c.jpg)[/URL[URL=http://s800.photobucket.com/user/old_rocket/media/IMG_0438_zps9e8dcddd.jpg.html](http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/old_rocket/IMG_0438_zps9e8dcddd.jpg)[/URL[URL=http://s800.photobucket.com/user/old_rocket/media/IMG_0435_zps28977431.jpg.html](http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/old_rocket/IMG_0435_zps28977431.jpg)[/URL[URL=http://s800.photobucket.com/user/old_rocket/media/IMG_0439_zps733c6cdc.jpg.html](http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/old_rocket/IMG_0439_zps733c6cdc.jpg) (http://s800.photobucket.com/user/old_rocket/media/IMG_0440_zps7b593f54.jpg.html)
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I even reinstalled factory sights so both factory and Dawsons are sighted in.
It is very accurate POA and inpact are consistent.
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I don't know how it could have happened, but could the front sight slot actually be off center, like maybe the slide was not mounted correctly in a jig during manufacturing? I believe you said you installed two different kinds of rear sights-if so-then that should eliminate an improperly manufactured rear sight.
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What did the factory test target look like?
I was really impressed with the 5 shot group that mine shows at 25 meters. I assume they shoot it from a rest of some kind...
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Man that would bug me too Rocket.
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What did the factory test target look like?
I was really impressed with the 5 shot group that mine shows at 25 meters. I assume they shoot it from a rest of some kind...
I believe the factory is a test fire for reliability and group the shots and not to sight the gun in.
Stuart might be able to answer this more correctly.
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I don't know how it could have happened, but could the front sight slot actually be off center, like maybe the slide was not mounted correctly in a jig during manufacturing? I believe you said you installed two different kinds of rear sights-if so-then that should eliminate an improperly manufactured rear sight.
I'm not sure if it is the angle, but it does kind of look like the factory front sight is milled slightly off.
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I'm gonna say shooter error on this one, pulling the shots to one side. Then compensating by adjusting the sights rather than ones technique.
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I'm gonna say shooter error on this one, pulling the shots to one side. Then compensating by adjusting the sights rather than ones technique.
I wish it was the shooter it would be an easy fix but then my STI 45, sp01s, 75b, HighPower, c-100 and S&W 22A would require their sights to be adjusted. I put 3,000 rounds a month through the STI and CZs alone MAMAs BOY against league/competiton shooters 2x/week.
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I don't know how it could have happened, but could the front sight slot actually be off center, like maybe the slide was not mounted correctly in a jig during manufacturing? I believe you said you installed two different kinds of rear sights-if so-then that should eliminate an improperly manufactured rear sight.
I'm not sure if it is the angle, but it does kind of look like the factory front sight is milled slightly off.
I made the assumption earlier that you changed the front sights with the rear sights, as matched pairs. If you did not, and you are using the same front sight, unmoved, then it would seem as though the problem involves the front sight somehow, quite possibly the location of the milled slot in the slide, or the front sight itself (perhaps you do have a bad front sight). Did you change out the front sight in your replacement efforts also?
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I can't see anything wrong with the front sight position. Just for kicks, check that the barrel is fitting the slide correctly at the breech end. Something is way off and it doesn't look like the sights. Do you have something like a wooden dowel that you could place in the barrel and compare to the side of the slide to see if the barrel is parallel to the slide sides?
Joe
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At first the CGW sights were used, competition rear and red fiber optic.
I then changed back to the factory sights, 3 dot painted not the greatest.
The CGW sights are sit higher and I did notice the front sight leans slightly left so when I put the factory shorter sights I thought that would make a difference but it didn't. You can see the difference in the pictures of the different sights.
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I can't see anything wrong with the front sight position. Just for kicks, check that the barrel is fitting the slide correctly at the breech end. Something is way off and it doesn't look like the sights. Do you have something like a wooden dowel that you could place in the barrel and compare to the side of the slide to see if the barrel is parallel to the slide sides?
Joe
I was thinking the same thing. From the pictures the front sight looks centered to me. Interesting idea about the dowel.
Sorry to hear your having a problem Old Rocket, interested to see what the cause is and how it works out.
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I think Joe's suggestion is sound. Check to see if the barrel is completely parallel with the slide on both sides. If it is not you have found your problem. If it is, then you have eliminated one possibility and can focus on the front sight.
But we all know this is very odd. Something is out of kilter.
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Joe L just checked, barrel and slide look parallel with the slightest side to side movement at the breach.
Looks like CZ USA will have to let me know what is the issue.
That is the only issue making me unhappy with the p09
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Joe L just checked, barrel and slide look parallel with the slightest side to side movement at the breach.
Looks like CZ USA will have to let me know what is the issue.
That is the only issue making me unhappy with the p09
OK, well I had to ask. If the barrel is parallel with the slide and the sights aren't, either the barrel is bent or the shooter is moving the gun. My bet is that the barrel isn't bent.
Before you get ticked off again about someone suggesting that the gun is moving as the trigger is pulled, let me give you a little history. I did that when I first got my P-09. I had to add grip tape, then JB-Weld to the frame and trigger to increase the trigger reach enough so that I could shoot the gun well, as in not pushing the gun low left. Yep, I did. I have long fingers and like long reach guns. The P-09 is a short reach gun as it comes from the factory.
Try this. Put on some thick gloves and shoot the gun again. If you have to move the sight left and things start centering up, maybe there is something here to study further. If nothing changes, than you have to find a mechanical reason for the sight position.
Believe me, we are all trying to be helpful here. I have about 9000 rounds experience with a P-09, including one season shooting bullseye matches and several good range sessions at 100 and 200 yards. The trigger reach is the only thing significantly different about the gun from most, and this sometimes causes issues.
Joe
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Joe L just checked, barrel and slide look parallel with the slightest side to side movement at the breach.
Looks like CZ USA will have to let me know what is the issue.
That is the only issue making me unhappy with the p09
OK, well I had to ask. If the barrel is parallel with the slide and the sights aren't, either the barrel is bent or the shooter is moving the gun. My bet is that the barrel isn't bent.
Before you get ticked off again about someone suggesting that the gun is moving as the trigger is pulled, let me give you a little history. I did that when I first got my P-09. I had to add grip tape, then JB-Weld to the frame and trigger to increase the trigger reach enough so that I could shoot the gun well, as in not pushing the gun low left. Yep, I did. I have long fingers and like long reach guns. The P-09 is a short reach gun as it comes from the factory.
Try this. Put on some thick gloves and shoot the gun again. If you have to move the sight left and things start centering up, maybe there is something here to study further. If nothing changes, than you have to find a mechanical reason for the sight position.
Believe me, we are all trying to be helpful here. I have about 9000 rounds experience with a P-09, including one season shooting bullseye matches and several good range sessions at 100 and 200 yards. The trigger reach is the only thing significantly different about the gun from most, and this sometimes causes issues.
Joe
Old Rocket,
Buddy I would agree with what Joe is saying. Could have to do with the trigger reach. When I first got my P938 I pulled shots pretty bad and could not get the hang of it so I sold it. Some guns just aren't made for an individual just like some are such a good fit it feels like family.
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I understand about grip and trigger, on the p09 I have to use the large back strap with a patch Mar Rubber over. On my sp01 I have to use the factory rubber I can't use thin grips.
I started with a 75b years ago sending hammer and sear to David so he could cut them. Every one of my CZS is tuned with David's best parts now and love a good trigger.
I have shot a good amount of bullseye center and rim with the boys and that range is 4 min from my house of 22yrs and I travel 40 min for USPSA.
I have a 13 lb hammer spring with CGW parts for the p09 and only run fed primers.
This is at 10yrds benched freehand with myself and another shooter. I should try week hand then I should have to move the sights the other way. I only know of 1 guy who has a ransom rest but haven't seen him in a while.
Just wanting to get it figured out.
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I'm gonna say shooter error on this one, pulling the shots to one side. Then compensating by adjusting the sights rather than ones technique.
I wish it was the shooter it would be an easy fix but then my STI 45, sp01s, 75b, HighPower, c-100 and S&W 22A would require their sights to be adjusted. I put 3,000 rounds a month through the STI and CZs alone MAMAs BOY against league/competiton shooters 2x/week.
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I don't know if you were agitated or not, but it sounded like it. Grandmas_Boy was just giving his opinion and thoughts. No need to take offense.
EDIT: I don't know what happened with that quote.
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Good idea to try weak hand. Also try consciously using less and more trigger finger insertion. Also see if there is any difference single action versus double action.
Here is a photo showing what mine looks like after I got enough thickness on the sides and buildup on the trigger to get the reach right for me.
(http://joelynch.smugmug.com/Firearms/CZ-Miscellaneous-after-11-14/i-hrMm6D6/1/L/PB152875-L.jpg)
Also a video demonstrating how different the P-09 is compared to the 75, both in single action mode.
http://youtu.be/gByPKEX4z4E (http://youtu.be/gByPKEX4z4E)
Hope this helps.
Joe
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I had a similar issue with my new P-07 and I had to adjust the rear way to the right (but not quite as far as in the picture). I noticed during dry firing that the muzzle wanted to shift suddenly to the left when the trigger broke especially when one-handed firing. I tried shooting from a bench rest and being very conscious of trigger pull and to make a long story short - the sights are adjusted back almost to where they started. Target from CZ that came with the gun showed the weapon shooting to the left with a center POA and this complicated the issue for me as I was sure it was the gun.
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I just thought of something while looking at another thread. I noticed that the ejector had some pretty severe wear marks and I sanded the area on the ejector until not even the slightest trace of rubbing was evident just before I fired it using a bench rest. I wonder if this may have had something to do with the gun shooting left for me... it would have been pushing the rear of the slide to the right which would possibly torque the barrel slightly left? Or am I way off here?
EDIT - The ejector is on the left side (looking down the sights so the place it was wearing would have pushed the rear to the left and the front toward the right - I think...
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I have nothing to offer other than that would bug the crap out of me as well.
Please let us know what you find out!
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Yeah, it was bugging me just being slightly off center. I would be absolutely sick if they were off as bad as what the picture showed.
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Old Rocket--any progress on your original issue?
Joe
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Also interested in an update..very odd issue considering the shooter's experience level.
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Just notified today that CZ USA is replacing the p09. No explanation just needed to be warranty replaced shipped today and here Monday.
Had to send it in twice, the first time the gun smith shot it and the sights were the same as in the pictures with the target 3/4" to the right at 30ft. They said move it to the center and it will be fine. I said that at 30ft l would only need to move it very little compared to how far center was. I measured and found the front sight was milled 3 hundreds of an inch to the right. So I sent it back saying they should look into this further and they agreed.
On month later I get a call again from the gun smith telling me just to move the sight to center and had to explanation everything again. Then this notification came today.
I am happy because this is resolved with some effort on my part.
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I'm glad that your persistence worked out for you. I read what you found about the front sight being off but would have been interested in what the CZ smith thought. Or did he agree with you?
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I'm glad that your persistence worked out for you. I read what you found about the front sight being off but would have been interested in what the CZ smith thought. Or did he agree with you?
As soon as I got the email I called asking what they found and the response was that it warranted a replacement with no further explanation.
CZ USA only bench rest the guns no ransom or anything similar and they are reluctant to move sights at least with my gun. Wasn't until I said to check the centering of the front sight that ended the issue.
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old rocket I am not trying to be wise guy here, I realize you stated that all was fine with the other hand guns. I have found for me personally I am right handed right eye dominate and if I grip to tight with my strong hand (right) that I will tend to shoot left. I pretty much force myself to stay aware of this and force myself to grip tighter with my off hand left. I also found a article explaining this on the web by haley strategic and printed out some of there targets with a vertical line on it trying to improve my shooting technique. I have found that it is even more evident when I am shooting a Glock with a 5.5 lb. trigger, I just have a hard time with it. I also work on sight alignment all the way through the trigger pull especially towards and at the end where it breaks. Anyhow I just did not want to sit on the sidelines read the post and not offer some input.
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old rocket I am not trying to be wise guy here, I realize you stated that all was fine with the other hand guns. I have found for me personally I am right handed right eye dominate and if I grip to tight with my strong hand (right) that I will tend to shoot left. I pretty much force myself to stay aware of this and force myself to grip tighter with my off hand left. I also found a article explaining this on the web by haley strategic and printed out some of there targets with a vertical line on it trying to improve my shooting technique. I have found that it is even more evident when I am shooting a Glock with a 5.5 lb. trigger, I just have a hard time with it. I also work on sight alignment all the way through the trigger pull especially towards and at the end where it breaks. Anyhow I just did not want to sit on the sidelines read the post and not offer some input.
I thought it was me at first and I have had 5 different guys shoot the p09.
Even had a P07 with David's trigger parts in it the transfered over to the p09. The p07 was a great shooter with no issues.
CZ-USA wouldn't have warranted the gun if there was no issue.
None of my triggers are over 3lbs.