The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ SP-01 and variants => Topic started by: Dr_Sick_MMA on March 01, 2015, 03:29:12 PM
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I recently read a thread http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?PHPSESSID=f9792176658378e9a049f3bc4b0e9635&topic=25836.0 where Angus Hobdell said that the 6" barrel offered practically no velocity advantage over the standard sp-01 barrel.
So the question is, what advantage is there to having a tactical sport or long slide variant since the tactical sport has lower capacity, and a bigger grip to contend with.
Why would you go with a long slide variant of the sp-01 at all?
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My guess would be sight radius.
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The Tactical Sport, in 9mm, is a better gun for 3 gun than an SP-01 variant. I own both. If I was trying to max out performance in Steel Challenge, I think the TS wins there too.
Grips can be replaced.
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That prior thread appeared to be a question about velocity out of a longer barrel. If you are comparing the TS vs SP-01 for use in shooting sports, they rarely compete in the same division. I enjoy the TS in Limited more than I did shooting DA/SA in Production. I did try the 75B in Limited (cocked and locked) for a summer, but I haven't looked back since I upgraded to a TS.
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So essentially, the TS is a comp specific design?
How does it out perform the SP-01?
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What good is a tactical sport in 9mm?
The various 3-Gun/multi-gun sports
Steel
Limited Division Minor
Open division with modifications
NRA Conventional Pistol/Bullseye Centerfire
General Target Shooting
How is it better than an SP-01 or standard CZ-75? Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's different, which is to say better or worse depending on the shooter and/or use, but:
Magazine capacity
Longer sight radius
Larger grip
Better stock SA trigger
Longer barrel for higher velocities for a given charge (even if a little, might make a difference to someone shooting over 25 yards)
That's off the top of my head; I'm sure there's more. ;)
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A TS is not better than a SP-01 for me than because I am unable/unwilling to spend that much $$$ on a "game gun". My game is not good enough to justify the price.
If I had the money to spare,,,, sure, I'd buy one.
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If I had the money to spare,,,, sure, I'd buy one.
The CZ 9mm major power factor Czechmate is my "If I had the..........." pistol.
I suspect a large percentage of the members here feel the same about many of the CZ models and other makes as well. ;D
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Firstly, let me quote here what Angus said:
When I used the Australian shadow with exteneded barrel I saw NO increase in velocity
He was quoting the 4.9" Barrel vs the standard 4.7" barrel. I do believe that in 0.2" barrel length difference, his observations are correct. However, with a barrel length increase of over 1.25", the velocity difference may be quite noticeable. Will it be useful? I am not sure. It could help in achieving PF easier. But one has to try out his loads first.
Secondly, the TS has higher capacity compared to SP01/SP01 Shadow; 20 vs 18 in stock magazines for 9mm. I think it is 17 vs 14 for .40, but I could be wrong as I have not used this caliber.
I have used almost all such CZ75 variants in 9mm except the czechmate. I have shot with the SP01, SP01 Shadow, TS, SP01 Shadow Longslide (sp01 shadow frame, TS slide).
-The TS (in respective competition divisions) is better due to extra weight all round, longer sight radius, and extra mag capacity in stock form. It is a bigger gun!
-Also, for some users, the bigger, wider, thicker grip of the TS is a preference. However, with thin Aluminum grips, it gets pretty close to a factory sp01 with rubber grips.
-TS has a better stock trigger, which can be improved to near perfection with just a bit of love and a needle file! It will, in essence, always be a few ounces lower in pull weight than sp01 shadow.
Personally (mainly bullseye precision shooting with single hand hold), I prefer the long sight radius of the TS, but grip of the SP01 Shadow frame. I have hence made myself the SP01 Shadow longslide version. To me, it is best of both worlds. However, when it comes to rapid fire events (minor pf), I would prefer using the SP01 shadow in stock form. I have found that the balance and recoil characteristics of sp01 Shadow somehow stand out. I will play with recoil springs a bit in the longslide to improve how she handles, which I am sure can be done. But since rapid fire and action pistol sports are not my top priority, I am not in a hurry to try out.
Its all personal preference. One has to try out various options before realizing which suits them the best.
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These are great replies. Thanks you everyone for your insights.
I was thinking the same thing as you coolbox as far as having the best of both worlds (TS and Sp-01) and so I set out to have CZ Custom put together a TS upper on a SP-01 Lower. Spoke to Stuart and he said they were out of SP-01s and that he didn't know when their shop would see another one. So I asked him if I found one and sent it in if they could do the rest. He said yes. So I went out and low and behold, there were none to be found in my neck of the woods. I'd seen plenty of them not too long ago. Anyhow, I finally found a SP-01 Tactical and pounced on it.
Got back in touch with Stuart and he said the tactical was no good for this build.
I was heartbroken. I had saved up and looked forward to making one of these for about 2 years now.
So then I started doing research and looking further into what gains there would be in essentially picking up an extra .8" (4.6 in the SP-01 vs 5.4 in the TS) in barrel length. Which is one of the reasons for this thread. Further research and user observations.
One of the most insightful sites I've found on the subject was this: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html)
Based on my research so far and the comments made in this thread, I'm leaning towards just keeping the thing stock. Not that I have a lot of choice in the matter lol. But rather than go through the trouble of selling it, hunting down a SP-01 (non decocker) then sending it in and spending another grand to have it tricked out for a few extra feet per second and a longer sight radius, I'm thinking it all turned out for the best. I'll spend the cash I saved on ammo and a few instructionals.
Still, my mind is open and I'd love to hear more peoples opinion on the matter. The ergos and the mag capacity aside, is having a .8" more barrel and a longer heavier slide worth the extra $$$?
(edited because after reading coolbox's post I had 1.25" barrel on the brain. I replaced 1.25" in this reply with .8" which is the difference in barrel length between the TS and the SP-01)
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I'd love to see if anyone has chronied the difference between the two.
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Hickok45 did a good video on this. I think it would also be very powder dependent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKjZ9hvNiK0
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Still, my mind is open and I'd love to hear more peoples opinion on the matter. The ergos and the mag capacity aside, is having a .8" more barrel and a longer heavier slide worth the extra $$$?
(edited because after reading coolbox's post I had 1.25" barrel on the brain. I replaced 1.25" in this reply with .8" which is the difference in barrel length between the TS and the SP-01)
Not too long ago Stuart posted some pictures of a CZC SP-01 Shadow chambered in .40SW with the long slide of the TS installed, and followed it up a few weeks later with a similar one in 9mm. At SHOT Show Angus showed a CZ-75 Shadow with the TS slide/barrel and indicated they have hopes that this pistol will someday be approved for USPSA Production Division.
That caught a lot of people's attention because a couple of years ago (2012-ish) CZC put out a few samples of a CZ-75 Shadow with the longer TS slide/barrel and it got people's hopes up as a great option for a USPSA Production pistol. Unfortunately the catch was in order to be approved for USSPA Production division CZC has to document that they've produced 2,000 of them (so its not just a one-off custom job and is more or less readily available to the general public). Unfortunately this has yet to happen, or I should say they have to produce 1,999 more of them...
So last fall when CZC told us they were offering some additional SP-01's with the TS slide/barrel on it, interest was re-ignited. I'm not exaxctly sure what the hold up is to make this a regular offering, though I suspect a consistent supply of TS uppers and SP-01 Shadow or the regular Shadow lowers from CZ-USA/CZ-UB may be what is keeping this from happening.
Personally I like the idea of a SP-01 Shadow or non-SP-01 Shadow that has the longer slide/barrel for the extra sight radius. I have a 6" 2011 that I shoot in USPSA Limited division and there are a lot of times where I appreciate the extra 1" of sight radius. A marginal sight picture still results in an A-zone hit which means I can drive the gun faster on my transitions and not have to worry as much about a perfect sight picture. in .40SW world with major PF requirements, the extra 1" of barrel translates into a 30-40 fps increase in speed over a 5" gun (based on my chrono-ing), or in other words I could download my rounds for the 6" gun by .2 gr and make it just a tad softer to shoot. But in the world of 9mm minor power factor, the longer slide may not result in that much more velocity reduction, maybe .1 gr at the most in a gun that already recoils very softly.
The downside to a longer gun is it took me a while to get accustomed to the extra weight on the end of the gun when swinging it from one target to another, but the extra weight helped by making the recoil flatter. So it ends up being pluses and minuses all around. But if I had to do it over again, I'd chose a long slide over a shorter one for competition.
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A TS is not better than a SP-01 for me than because I am unable/unwilling to spend that much $$$ on a "game gun". My game is not good enough to justify the price.
If I had the money to spare,,,, sure, I'd buy one.
Tac sport is about the cheapest real game gun. If you're semi-serious about games, you spend more than that on ammo every year anyway.
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Smitty79, that hickock45 vid was boss. Thank you for posting it. Hickock's theories continue to strengthen my own observations and ideas on the subject. The TS and long slide variants are more of the Saber Toothed Tiger variety, whereas the stock SP-01's are more cockroach. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.
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And above all, these look awesome...specially in pairs.
(http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad226/coolbox18/CZ%20SP01%20Tac%20Sport/20150109_225200_zps16b1f409.jpg)
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And above all, these look awesome...specially in pairs.
(http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad226/coolbox18/CZ%20SP01%20Tac%20Sport/20150109_225200_zps16b1f409.jpg)
I'm jealous. *drooling*
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A fine pair indeed.
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Can't argue with that.
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Here's real data:
This data is for Blue Bullets 147 RN bullets loaded to 1.09 OAL, CCI SPP, 3.25 gns Commercial 5(CSB-5) powder
Gun Avg Velocity (FPS)
Kahr PM9 845
Glock 19 876
SP-01 Shdw 896
Tac Sport 919
Size matters.
For fun, I did it with a 45 load too. Bayou 230 RN, Winchester Primers, OAL 1.235, CSB-5 4.4 gn
DW Heritage 829
S&W 625 836
SAR K2 45 801
I think this powder is medium burn rate for pistol powder. I suspect that barrel length is more important than it would be with a faster powder. I have some Clays, I'll repeat the experiment with that some day.
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Looking forward to your clay's experiment Smitty79.
Thanks for posting.
The velocity increase between the SP-01 and the Tac Sport was a little more than I had thought it would be. Still, I have to wonder if the extra 24 feet per second is worth the extra expense and troubles to me.
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Just a clarifying point, the barrel on the TS is actually 5.1" (not the published 5.4").
So from the 4" barrel on the G19 to the 5.1" barrel on the TS you get about 45-50 fps delta with the extra inch of barrel.
That matches my results chrono-ing my reloads between my P-01 (3.8" barrel) and my TS too.
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Thanks for the intel IronicTwitch. I don't know why but I would love to have those extra 50 fps. But at the end of the day, I'm a pragmatist and I so far I can't figure a way to make the cost to benefit ratio make sense for me.
Great to hear that the TS is only 5.1 Makes the sting of not being able to get the build to work out the way I wanted a little less painful. And that 50 fps would probably only be around 25-30 between my SP-01 and the TS.
Meanwhile, I saved some more money by picking up parts from CGW and installing them myself. Love their customer service and their stuff really improved the trigger on my piece.
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I don't know why but I would love to have those extra 50 fps.
Then load with an extra .2-3 grains of powder. ;)