The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZF RIMFIRES => Topic started by: Marky on March 01, 2015, 08:15:11 PM
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Hi all! I recently purchased several CZ 452 and 455 rifles along with extra barrels for the 455's. I read, on one the forums, that the 452 ultralux super exclusive is not as accurate as the shorter barreled CZ's. I can say from my experience that the ultralux is nearly as accurate as my 452 American and both are more accurate than the 455's. As far as ammo is concerned, all of my CZ shoot the Federal automatch and CCI standard velocity better than anything else including the high dollar ammo. That's a real plus! I love these guns and would love to hear if anyone else had similar experience. Also, the longer barrel seems to love the stingers and velocitor!
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CCI SV is good ammo. That is about al I shot before the drought. Have bought what I could find in stock over the past two years, but still prefer the CCI.
My UL wears a set OD BRNO peep sights. The longer barrel and the open sights make an awesome combination.
The 452's out shooting the 455's does not surprise me. I, along with others have had the same experience.
My UL is one of my most accurate CZ's. I don't think the longer barrels is going to limit accuracy in anyway. Possibly velocity, but not accuracy. My longer barrel CZ's shoot better than my shorter ones, except for maybe my FS.
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Well, I used a scope and bags to test the accuracy of the ultralux. My plan is to go back to peep sight. Have any of you guys tried out the peep sights with fancy iris, sunshade and globe for the front sight? I have a peep sight replacement in place of my rear sight but my 47 year old eyes are not as good as they once was. It would be nice to have at least one gun without glass 8n it. Any suggestions?
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BRNO sights. Here is my rear.
(http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy324/Campbell_inspect/imagejpg3_zps407fcf7c.jpg) (http://s804.photobucket.com/user/Campbell_inspect/media/imagejpg3_zps407fcf7c.jpg.html)
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http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=542539&highlight=BRNO+peep
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That's a nice gun you have! What does the sight picture look like with that setup? Does the iris magnifying the target or can you get a shot of what you see?
Thanks
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That's a nice gun you have! What does the sight picture look like with that setup? Does the iris magnifying the target or can you get a shot of what you see?
Thanks
No magnification on the iris. Just adjustable for size (diameter of hole). Didn't think it would help that much until I got one. It is the best thing I have done for the sights and my eyes.
With these sights, you look through the rear and focus on the object while center with the front. Easy to use and does a very good job. They make metal and plastic inserts with different variations for the front center (circle, post, crosshairs etc.)
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Thanks for your help viking. Do you have more than one CZ rim fire? I asked because I have several now (i'm not rich just did a lot of trading lol) So far I would say that I really like the 452 line much better than the 455. I like the finish much better on the wood and the bluing. But, I can say that my 455 Varmint seems to cycle smoother and is only slightly less accurate than my 452 American. My 452 ultralux is just cool with the long barrel and when I can afford to get me some those peeps sights from Denny I should be set for a while....I hope! These gun are so easy to shoot and soo accurate they can be boring to shoot....HA! just kidding Thanks
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Thanks for your help viking. Do you have more than one CZ rim fire? I asked because I have several now (i'm not rich just did a lot of trading lol) So far I would say that I really like the 452 line much better than the 455. I like the finish much better on the wood and the bluing. But, I can say that my 455 Varmint seems to cycle smoother and is only slightly less accurate than my 452 American. My 452 ultralux is just cool with the long barrel and when I can afford to get me some those peeps sights from Denny I should be set for a while....I hope! These gun are so easy to shoot and soo accurate they can be boring to shoot....HA! just kidding Thanks
Do I own more than one.......that's funny.....filled one hand, working on the second.
I have had two 455's so far......don't have any right now. Would say I will again somewhere down the road, but as long as 452's are available........
Denny's sights are a hoot to shoot.pick up a Gehman 510 adjustable iris, adapter, shade tube and a few different front inserts to experiment with and you will be set for a long time.
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Marky, this is the sight setup on my 452 FS 22lr. A Gehmann 590 rear sight with adjustable Gehmann iris and a CZ Std match front globe. My other 452 rifle is a 17hmr Trainer and on that rifle I have the CZ Std Match front and rear sight set up. I have not taken a picture of it yet but will soon and will post.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/BinhThuyUSN/CZ452%20Full%20Stock%2022lr/IMG_1962_zps9426f9fa.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/BinhThuyUSN/media/CZ452%20Full%20Stock%2022lr/IMG_1962_zps9426f9fa.jpg.html)
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Does the rear have any magnification?can you get a shot of what you when you look thru it? BTW thats a nice setup you have there. As soon as can figure it out I'll post pictures too.
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You can get magnification for some of the sights. Mine does not have one and and I am not sure if you can get it for my model.
Here is a good place to look at items. My 510 came from here.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/main.aspx?p=categoryBody&c=OPAIGE
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=510
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Marky, my apologies for the late reply. I have no magnification on the rear sight, but the iris is adjustable and with 60+ year old eyes and bifocals; I am shooting good scores in the 4 position (prone, sitting, kneeling and standing) informal rimfire league at my local shooting range. Like you it is fun to shoot with scoped rifles but with the iron sighted rifles (FS 22lr and Trainer 17hmr) the shooting experience takes on a new dimension. As an added shooting enjoyment experience, at my local shooting range I participate in a .177 caliber air rifle league.
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Hi,
I had the barrel on my 455 shortened, the trigger reduced, and added a Boyd's thumbhole stock. Folks at Ranger Point Precision did the work for me. Yesterday, with a Bushnell 6500 and a Caldwell Led Sled I was able to put nine rounds in a .5 inch target pasty at 50 yards. I don't have enough endurance in my shooting mechanics to do it consistently, but I have been able to achieve 1 inch groups or better out to 100 yards. The kicker is that I did it all with weight and rim thickness sorted Winchester 36 grain CPHPs in the 555 pack. Just about the least expensive ammo I can find. On no wind daysat any range under 200 yards I can detect no difference in comparison with CCI Green Tag. What are you seeing with your 452? r/s Mark
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It's funny that you mention how well your 455 shoots the Winchester ammo because all of my CZ's have a terrible time with that ammo except my 452 ultralux and it is the only one that isn't picky about ammo. My ultralux even seems to like the stinger and the velocitor round. I have to wander if it's the longer barrel that helps with the super fast stuff. How long is you barrel now? BTW sounds like your a bleep good shot!
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Marky,
Thanks, but I bind the rifle down in the Led Sled pretty tight. The Ranger Point folks cut the barrel down to 16.5".
The folks a CZ and Ranger Point say that as long as the round has enought barrel to completely burn through its propellant, a shorter barrel is stiffer, more stable, and more accurate. Shot Stingers yesterday out to 125 yards consistently on 3 inch wobble targets, so that supports their claim. Yea, the copper plated stuff seems to do pretty well in it. Win M-22s and Rem Thunderbolts don't do so well. Federal AutoMatch does Okay. CCI Green Tag and Standard Velocity are comparable to the Win CPHPs. No problem at all on the wobble targets at 200 with Win 36 grain CPHPs. I have achieved roughly 75% success at 330 on a 18 by 12 silhouette target with the Win CPHPs. My goal is to go out to 400, but the Win 36 grain CPHPs and Stingers are just too light, and I have not found a good 40 grain round yet. I have not run accross any Velocitors, can't convince myself to pay the online prices yet. Maybe I will get lucky at Walmart. Have you had any luck at long distance, and if so, any round you recommend? My next buy with probably be a CZ 512 accurized the same as my 455. The 512 has the same barrel as the 455, and I think that cycling the bolt on the 455 gets me out of position and rhythm often. Although, you may lose a bit of accuracy with the semi-auto, I feel I might be able to gain over come that by being able to stay locked in a consistently stable postion. Any thoughts? r/s Mark
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Man, I wish I had the distances you have. I'm limited to 100 yards. I had the same problems when cycling the bolt for the next shot. I wasn't getting consistent cheek weld to the stock and I had some parallax error past 50 yards that was giving string shots. I fixed it when I bought a scope with an adjustable objective lens.Now, its a none issue with head placement. Have you tried an AO scope?
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Yes. I recently bought a Bushnell 6500 parallax scope. Paid $700 through Amazon for it, but worth it. Good clear optics at any distance I want with 22lr. It tracks pretty consistently too. As long as I can see point of impact, adjustments are easy without having to range find and do the calculations. Thanks for relating your position consistency thoughts. Furhter confirmed my decision to buy the 512. At 50 yards with the 455 I was able to do .25 inch groups on one 3 round string right on top a .25 inch bullseye, but on the next couple of magazines, I shoot an inch group off target, usually to the left. This is the cycle I get on most days. Somewhat frustrating. Rests and vices are great for non-shooters like me, but I am finding that you have to take care not to torque you rifle too much because the round going off will cause it to snap back on you throwing off the round as it travels down the barrel. I don't try distances past 75 yards unless I have no winds or very light winds, around 5 mph. I also have the luxury of a range with high dirt mounds behind my targets, making it easy to see point of impact and make windage and elevation adjustments. Have you tried any of the Android shooting apps to help you with greater distances? I use a Russian one called Strelok, the free base version. You can buy the pro version for around $10, but the only advantage I see is that it has a greater library of scopes and reticles. I am not into hold over shooting these days, so it I have not seen the need to buy an app yet. I have also shimmed up my front ring mount with small piece of velcro tape. I have a FX "No Limits" set of elevation adjusting ring mounts on back order that should get me out well beyond 400 and eliminating the need to shim. Using shims, Strelok, and topping out my elevation adjustment allowed me to reach 430 yards, but without the dirt mound backstops there is no way I could even attemp anything past 200 without large splatter targets and walking them back in 25 yard increments, a time consuming task. r/s Mark
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I have two Vortex crossfire II scopes that are 6x18x40 with an adjustable objective lense. You can pick these scopes up less than $200 most places. Anyway, I took out my 455 varmint today, just to get out in the nice weather, and see how the heavy barrel liked some RWS and Eley ammo I purchased. All of my other CZ's didn't like this particular ammo but the varmint gun seems happy with it. I have read other guys say the stiffer, larger barrel will shoot all different kinds of ammo more consistently and that's pretty much what it did. Nothing shot as good as my 452's but, my 452's can be picky with different ammo.
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Interesting. I wonder what the differences are with the 455 and 452 that make the 452 more accurate? Any thoughts? Could be that the longer heavy barrel makes it more accurrate with a wider range of ammo. While Green Tags work really well, most other non-plated rounds are just okay. My heavy short barrel 455 seems to like the copper plated stuff which may have something to do with copper interaction with the lands and grooves over a shorter length that make them more effective, but less effective on longer barrels. Or maybe I just got lucky with an excellent barrel. Additinally, Ranger Point just told me they used some locktite to fix the barrel firmly onto the chamber. Not sure if this has anything to do with it.
After much frustration, I found a position and trigger drawing technigue that got me back into .5 inch groups at 50. Sounds weird and may be an indication that I need some trigger work, but I use the last segment of my index finger to pin trigger to its left lateral limit, then slowly draw the trigger back against this limit until firing. Seems to compensate for my left pull tendencies, and is easy to repeat on a more consistent basis. Plan to test again this afternoon, if the weather holds.
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There's lots of discussion about the relative accuracy between the two models.
The 452 uses a threaded barrel except the HM2 models which are pinned.
The 455 uses a dovetail which slips into the receiver and is fixed by 2 grub screws. That allows all the 455 models to use the same action. All 455 barrels will fit the action as will all stocks, except for any barrel channel differences due to barrel profile. [The 452 guys say the CZ tolerances are too loose which leads to poorer accuracy.]
A weakness in the 455 platform might be that the action is slightly weaker because they use a spacer to convert a 22WMR to 22LR. It also has less support from the stock.
Whether all this makes the 455 less accurate is questionable. Most CZ's shoot pretty well, and the upside is if you get a 455 that doesn't there is factory and aftermarket support for replacement barrels If you get a 452 that's a dud there isn't a lot you can do.
I don't think one is better, or worse. They both seem to be high quality rifles at the price point.
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I purchased a lighter spring on Ebay that was for my 455 varmint. It cost about 6 bucks or so. Anyway, it was a quick and easy install and it made my 455 trigger really awesome! I have had two 452 Americans and they were equally very accurate. My 452 ultralux is also very accurate. Its not as pretty as my American but the cool factor is way up there. I also have a 455 American and 455 Varmint. They're accurate too but slightly less so. My solution to the whole which is more accurate thing is buy them both. :)
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While still inconsistent as hell, yesterday I found a short lived groove with my 455 and was able to put 3 rounds dead center on a .25 diamond bulls eye at 100 yards with Federal AutoMatch. All other group with Federal AutoMatch were from 1.5 to 3 inches. Had a hell of a time with CCI Green Tag, no groups under 2. I have to face the fact that my inconsistency discredits all previous statements on what brands my 455 likes or dislikes. Until I lock my mechanics down I will stop making performance claims on ammo. On the rare occasions that I do find a groove with a string of consistent ammo, this weapon is a literal tack driver, but until I control for my mechanics I can't really look at ammo performance.
I have a 512 on the way from Ranger Point and I am eager to try her out. They will be cutting the barrel down to 16.5 and reducing the trigger to 3 lbs. While semi-autos can be inherently less precise in their tolerances, I am hopeful that eliminating the bolt cycle from my shooting mechanics will allow my groups to be more consistent, albeit less tight.
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You know i have the same problems you have with ammo. One day certain ammo is good and other days they're not. I think the weather and my attitude have more to do with my performance on any given day at the range. I was told by grandfather at a young age that i seem to have a natural ability with guns. Mostly I think my papaw was just being the awesome guy he was and having fun with his grandson when he said those things but it made love to shoot guns an awful lot. I don't get upset when I'm not having a good day at the range because even a bad day at the range is a lot of fun for me. I understand wanting to be really good at something but i think if you make it fun! your natural ability will come out. BTW, thanks for your service our country. You are not just a citizen of this great country, YOU ARE AN AMERICAN!
PS. My son is a natural good shot too ;)
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Thanks for the kind comments. Yep, your right. Attitude and learning to relax, doing the exact same thing mechanically every time, then making windage and elevation adjustment to bring it home. Its fun to chase the zero groups. If I start getting bored or frustrated, I change to steel and wobble targets at greater distances and plink away. Had a much better day yesterday at 100. Was able to work my groups into 1.5 and then 1.0 inch targets with Win CPHPs in some wind. Took my kids shooting for the first time a few months back and they seemed to take to it like fish in water, and had a great time. It was fun watching my 22 year old daughters reaction when she had a dead center bull at 75. My 25 year old son was the most consistent of all of us.
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If we could just barrow a young set of eyes every now and then.....BTW I took some bulk ammo today and grouped it with matching rim thickness. I'm hopefully gonna get to try it out tomorrow. ......
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Let me know how it works for you and what you used.
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Marky,
How did the rim thickness sorting work for you? Very curious. I sort buy weight and then by rim thickness with Win CPHPs. Had excellent results in my 455. Took my 512 out for its first spin in the wind yesterday. With CCI Green Tag, every bit ass accurate at 50 yards as my 455, and as I thought, removing the manual bolt cycling allowed me to be more consistent in my shooting mechanics, making my groups more consistent. The trigger is a good bit stiffer than my 455, but this allows me to control the cross hairs better than the lighter trigger of the 455. Recoil is noticeably greater, as you would expect, but dropping the aiming point and/or holding the barrel down compensates. The only downside is that I burn through ammo at a much greater rate. :-) Tried unsorted Win CPHPs with it, and as I expected, a waste of ammo, if you want 5 round 1 inch groups. Will sort by weight next. If unsatisfactory, will sort by weight and rim next. Mark
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Hey Marine! Okay, I only sorted the ammo by rim thickness but, I should have also weighed it too. My grouping did tighten up but i still had maybe 2 flyers (sometimes more) More testing to come. BTW, have you ever heard of pinching the trigger when shooting from the bench? I was talking with an old timer at the gun store this weekend and he explained it like this. Simple, Don't grip the gun just use your thumb and index finger. Put your thumb on the back of the trigger guard and pinch the trigger with your index finger. I haven't tried it yet so that's next too
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Never tried pinching the trigger, but I will now. Thanks for the tip. I do go back and forth between laying off the rifle while in the rest and leaning on it. Leaning is more comfortable, but has a tendency to create torque that can throw me off. Rest or not, it seems a semi-auto blow back system raises the barrel before the round exits, more than a manual bolt action rifle. When I am off, my tendency is to pull left and up.
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I hope I am not derailing this thread, but what does the "Super Exclusive" mean? I bought a 452 Ultra Lux a few months ago and noticed this writing on it. It's been cold and I've been busy, but in the next week or two I plan on breaking it in!!
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I hope I am not derailing this thread, but what does the "Super Exclusive" mean? I bought a 452 Ultra Lux a few months ago and noticed this writing on it. It's been cold and I've been busy, but in the next week or two I plan on breaking it in!!
Just marketing.
The 452 Ultra Lux certainly isn't exclusive...never mind Super Exclusive.
Nice rifle though. Enjoy.
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Marky,
Tried your trigger pinch technique along with repositioning my cheek rest closer to the end of the stock. This postion puts very little torque on the rifle in the rest. Was able to put 5 rounds in one hole at 50 yards, and in calm conditions, 3 in an inch group at 100. I feel comfortable with making 100 yards my starting zero at this point. Got a 455 in 17 HMR on the way. Ranger Point is putting a Boyd's stock on it for me with a trigger job to get the same tension as my 455 22lr. Maybe its old age, but I feel the kid before Christmas in Christmas Story. :-) Thanks for the tip. Mark
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I'm glad I could help:) I'm hoping to participate in a 100 yard varmint match this weekend and if I learn of some good techniques I'll be sure to pass them along!
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I hope I am not derailing this thread, but what does the "Super Exclusive" mean? I bought a 452 Ultra Lux a few months ago and noticed this writing on it. It's been cold and I've been busy, but in the next week or two I plan on breaking it in!!
painter is right, it's just a cool name. Sorta like the old super bee muscle car.......isn't a bee just a really cool car with a cool name. I hope you enjoy your new gun!