The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: mshane on April 28, 2016, 06:08:56 PM
-
Just picked up my new P-07 from my FFL, I have to say this thing has the worst double action trigger pull I have ever felt. And the SA leaves a little something to be desired also. My P-01 and SP-01 Tactical were a whole lot better out of the box. I'm pretty new to the CZ club and guess I thought the Omega trigger was supposed to be decent from the start and maybe I misunderstood that. I was going to wait to do anything to it for a little bit, do you guys think it will smooth out some after a few hundred rounds? I see a bunch of people here swapping stuff out right a way so I guess maybe that is the way to go. Like I said I'm new to this so suggestions are appreciated.
-
I agree on the out of the box feel. I did the "Bend Trigger Spring", "Smoothing Contact Points (Trigger, Hammer, Trigger Bar)", and "Dry Firing (+/- 500 times)". It smoothed out a lot better. Don't have a trigger gauge, but made a good difference on the actions.
-
Shot mine for a while before I did any upgrades. But that 20# recoil spring had to go.
After installing CGW hammer and spring, short reset kit, FP and Fp spring and stainless rod and spring, it is now my favorite pistol. If you put in CGW parts, don't forget to put in CGW's extra strength sear spring.
-
Yes, they can be a little rough at first. They DO get better after a few rounds, I shot my P-09 a bunch before any CGW parts were available, and it got better. You can put in a lighter hammer spring and that will help a bunch with nothing else. I have too many rounds through the CGW guns, and I couldn't wait for the factory trigger to smooth out, so I gave up and put a CGW hammer in it after a week. Trigger is perfect now in single action mode. Still not silky smooth in double action but I don't spend much time there anyway. The CGW hammer won't help double action. Lighter springs will.
Joe
-
Well I sprayed the heck out of it with lube and dry fired it a couple hundred times and will continue to do so for the next week or so. Guess we'll see. I did notice when I pull the trigger it's movement is left and back. Is this a typical thing as I looked at my other two CZs an neither one of them do it.
Joe did I see you post something about a video of disassembly? I am not a gunsmith and would like to learn to do some of this stuff myself rather than paying someone.
-
Here you go, for the videos,
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7GbOFIiTV0zywDb1XrQ2FMDvFsgCtXkF (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7GbOFIiTV0zywDb1XrQ2FMDvFsgCtXkF)
Joe
-
So I have been doing a little more digging on here. When the hammer is down it is at the right slide of the frame, when I start to pull the trigger the hammer comes left and back. If I don't pull the trigger hard enough to the partial back position like after being decocked it goes back down to the right side of the slide again. If I pull the trigger several times slowly the hammer eventually seats directly in the middle of the slide but still moves left when the trigger is depressed.
Reading deadducks post about hammer alignment my experience is very similar.
-
So I have been doing a little more digging on here. When the hammer is down it is at the right slide of the frame, when I start to pull the trigger the hammer comes left and back. If I don't pull the trigger hard enough to the partial back position like after being decocked it goes back down to the right side of the slide again. If I pull the trigger several times slowly the hammer eventually seats directly in the middle of the slide but still moves left when the trigger is depressed.
Reading deadducks post about hammer alignment my experience is very similar.
Post a pic lets see how far off it is.
-
I put in a hammer spring from an old spring kit without any poundage info on it, and the DA pull decreased dramatically. I recommend a lighter hammer spring weight. I tested different primers in empty cases (no bullets either, obviously) and all popped. I put in an 18 pound recoil spring but can't tell any difference from the stock 20lb spring. I will be going down a bit further with a glock 19 15lb spring to see how things go. I won't change any internal parts as it is embarrassing to take a bag of parts to the gunsmith.
-
mshane - "I pull the trigger it's movement is left and back"
I get the same/similar thing happening (new CZ P-07 Gen), more noticeable when hammer is half-cocked/DeCocked -
Video 1:
https://vimeo.com/164744784
Video 2:
https://vimeo.com/164744957
I don't feel or see any rubbing of the hammer on the frame or slide. Doesn't seen to affect anything with the function of the gun.
-
mshane: If the DA pull really bugs you, the CGW fix for that is an enlarged roller--there are two sizes to choose from. You will need to talk to David at Cajun Gun Works to see which one is right for your P-07.
-
mshane - "I pull the trigger it's movement is left and back"
I get the same/similar thing happening (new CZ P-07 Gen), more noticeable when hammer is half-cocked/DeCocked -
Video 1:
https://vimeo.com/164744784
Video 2:
https://vimeo.com/164744957
I don't feel or see any rubbing of the hammer on the frame or slide. Doesn't seen to affect anything with the function of the gun.
Mine is just the opposite, when it's decocked it comes straight back but when it's down all the way like after a trigger pull then it does what your first video shows. I talked to CZ customer service and they want me to send in the gun so I guess I will. It is just brushing the slide when it's in the full down position. I called another guy I know today and had him check his and he said hammer is centered and there is no movement besides straight back. It may not have any consequence but my OCD saw that hammer kicking left the first time I pulled the trigger and so I checked the P-01 and the SP-01 and neither are like that. I guess I just expected it to be right since it's brand new. Maybe I'm just being too picky but it is brand new.
-
Now granted, mine was worked on by CZ Custom, but the main modification when they converted my P-07 to DAO was a 13# mainspring. They also did some polishing of the internals and when all was said and done, what remained was a very nice, smooth 6.5# pull.
-
mshane: If the DA pull really bugs you, the CGW fix for that is an enlarged roller--there are two sizes to choose from. You will need to talk to David at Cajun Gun Works to see which one is right for your P-07.
Yeah the guy I talked to about his G2 P-07 said the 220 roller is the one he used and it really smoothed out the DA. I am following that other thread about what parts to get and Rutherford 2 suggested the following:
CGW short reset kit
18# hammer spring if defensive/carry, 15# if range only
Reduced power trigger return spring
If your stock DA roller is rolling and not skipping/grinding, keep it. (friend said the 220)
Price wise that's pretty reasonable for what would hopefully really smooth it out and lighten it up.
-
mshane - be sure to keep us updated on what CZ-USA does to the gun. I may have to send mine back to them.
-
I made you guys a video of what the hammer travel SHOULD look like, this is from my absolutely perfect P-07. I put a CGW hammer in it, but the stock hammer fit the same as this one.
https://youtu.be/jg7JKrFqqzE (https://youtu.be/jg7JKrFqqzE)
Joe
-
Joe L - Thanks for doing the video, looks like mine is going back to it's creator (see my video on Page 1). It's had the moving left then back sense I got it new.
-
Looks like they machined some loose fitting hammers on some of these guns. Mine comes back perfectly straight with the stock hammer and the CGW unit I replaced it with.
-
Yeah she is all packed up and going back to the mothership in KC. Hopefully it's a quick turn around as I want to use it for a class I'm taking in a few weeks. Thanks for all your guys input. A buddy of mine stopped by today who is basically a gun smith and said that it would most likely wear uneven and would make an inconstant trigger pull so based on that I packed her up and slapped the sticker on that CZ sent me. We shall see.
-
All that being said, I will caution you that you may not want to expect perfection here. This is a poly service pistol and there are tolerances and clearances and some do seem to vary a bit.
I might use the AK47 reference, however not exact.
But, the design of the Omega system does impose a side loading on the hammer in DA, this is just fact. Now the holes and pins come into play. I an not sure just how consistent they are, but you may just have a pivot pin a little loose as example.
Just saying, I am sure they may well establish some acceptable limits here on this issue. Throw it in the mud and it still works! O0
-
All that being said, I will caution you that you may not want to expect perfection here. This is a poly service pistol and there are tolerances and clearances and some do seem to vary a bit.
I might use the AK47 reference, however not exact.
But, the design of the Omega system does impose a side loading on the hammer in DA, this is just fact. Now the holes and pins come into play. I an not sure just how consistent they are, but you may just have a pivot pin a little loose as example.
Just saying, I am sure they may well establish some acceptable limits here on this issue. Throw it in the mud and it still works! O0
I tend to agree but I also think all these companies across the board have increased tolerance standards as to what they accept as useable parts so when we see these issues it's because a part or group of parts that are at the low/loose end of spec end up installed in a gun and we see sloppy function like this. You want to see some real sad sloppy workmanship go handle some new revolvers. I'm sad too see some of the junk S&W and Ruger are shipping these days and Taurus is worse than ever.
-
...
it's because a part or group of parts that are at the low/loose end of spec end up installed in a gun and we see sloppy function like this.
Yep. It's like they took a batch of 50 hammers that were too narrow and had an oversized pin hole and didn't check them and they made it through the firing check and in to the plastic box for sale. If CZ will fix them in a hurry now, and check them more closely in the future, maybe it only affected a few owners and they can clear this up quickly.
On the 75 and 97 frames, the opposite is what I've seen. The frame width is just a little narrow with the hammer cocked, it will almost hold the hammer back due to the rub. This will make the double action pull high as well. I've had to polish the sides of the hammers and the frame slot on two guns because it was tight, not because it was loose. Easy to check. Remove the hammer spring and move the hammer through its travel range and feel for any tightness or resistance. Take it apart and fix it if you do. Usually just a surface blemish on the coating or a rough edge on the frame or hammer.
Joe
-
Joe L - "Yep. It's like they took a batch of 50 hammers that were too narrow and had an oversized pin hole and didn't check them and they made it through the firing check and in to the plastic box for sale."
I believe you're correct on the "oversized pin hole". When I removed the pin that holds the hammer and hammer strut together, it came out without any resistance. I was very surprised because I read in other posts how hard that pin is to remove, but mine just slide in and out, no tool (Roll Pin Punch) required.
-
I like doing stuff myself but I'm very tempted to send mine off to CGW and have them install the parts and smooth out the rest. After watching a couple videos of amazing trigger actions after sending them off I'm leaning towards the extra expense. I'm in a little better position personally because I picked up my Gen 2 P07 from a dealers personal stash for $350, so after the cgw I'll only be about 7 in it.
-
I believe you're correct on the "oversized pin hole". When I removed the pin that holds the hammer and hammer strut together, it came out without any resistance. I was very surprised because I read in other posts how hard that pin is to remove, but mine just slide in and out, no tool (Roll Pin Punch) required.
The P series hammer strug pins are not very tight. Mine have all been just snug, not tight like the 75 and 97 guns. May have something to do with whether the strut pin is captured for the entire stroke of the hammer or not. Don't believe it is in the earlier guns, so a pin that moves would jam the gun.
It would have to be loose fit on the hammer pivot pin that the hammer rotates on that would allow the wobble we are seeing, plus the hammer being too narrow.
Joe
-
I recently re-bought a P07 Duty and noticed it had a really rough DA and SA pull. I took the frame and trigger components totally down and did a thorough cleaning. I put some super secret grease on the contact points on everything, and it really helped smooth the pull out. There were also a few metal shavings inside which I'm sure didn't help anything.
It's still no sig or 1911, but it's perfectly useable for a pistol I only paid $390 out the door for.
-
Just recently had to send my brand new 07 with crooked jacked-up hammer back to CZ and they had it returned to me in 8 working days. Works great now and no complaints. Send them back if your hammer is squirrelly.
-
deadduck357 - What did they replace to correct the issue (hammer, hammer strut, pin, all)?
-
deadduck357 - What did they replace to correct the issue (hammer, hammer strut, pin, all)?
The Warranty Repair stated "Replaced hammer, test fired good". No more crooked hammer and it doesn't first move to the left before it starts to come back. All good now.
-
deadduck357 - Thanks for the update.......
-
My P-07 arrived in KC yesterday and I received an e-mail stating they have the pistol and will be taking a look at it. Then the obligatory 4-6 week return time statement which is just fine. Once I talked to them on the phone I had a prepaid overnight Fed-ex shipping label in 45 minutes. I may not be pleased with the pistol as I received it but to this point their customer service has been on top of things for sure and I can't complain in the least about that. As a side note I am more than happy with my P-01 and SP-01 tactical. The quality of those two pistols are what led to my sending the P-07 back.
-
Hopefully they treat you as well as they did me.
-
Well the P-07 is back from CZ. The response was "no problem found, adjusted double action" The hammer movement to the left on trigger pull is noticeably less than before but there is still a slight bit of movement left before it starts back. Took it out this afternoon and put 200 rounds through it and it functions fine so all's well that ends well I guess.
Now to get those CGW parts ordered and start my gunsmithing career. I think with Joes youtube video and a little patience I can handle it. If I somehow monkey it up then I will take it to my friend who is a smith and have him make it right.
Thanks for all your guys input.
-
mshane, thanks for the update.
Mine is still there, they received it on 05-04. I'll post with update once I get it back.
-
I had some frame rubbing with my hammer in DA. The pull was very rough so when I pulled it apart to add some Cgw parts, I shaved a small amount of the polymer next to the hammer. The pull is much better now. ;D
Also I believe there will always be some inherent pull to the left. The omega system uses only one point of contact on the side of the hammer to engage.
-
Update - Received my gun back from CZ-USA:
"Description: Hammer side to side play (See Previous Post Above)
Work Performed: Function tested and test fired good. firearm is normal and functioning properly. The hammer is not making physical contact with the right side of the slide and no unusual wear is occurring. Sending back."
Everything checked out good, no need for any repairs.........
-
Ok. At least they actually fixed mine.
-
Literally just got my czp07 Urban gray today. Same issues that you describe but doesn't appear to be rubbing. I'm just going to leave it as is. Hell it was cheaper than my glocks so I'm not sure I expect perfection. Can't wait to shoot it.
-
I believe you're correct on the "oversized pin hole". When I removed the pin that holds the hammer and hammer strut together, it came out without any resistance. I was very surprised because I read in other posts how hard that pin is to remove, but mine just slide in and out, no tool (Roll Pin Punch) required.
The P series hammer strug pins are not very tight. Mine have all been just snug, not tight like the 75 and 97 guns. May have something to do with whether the strut pin is captured for the entire stroke of the hammer or not. Don't believe it is in the earlier guns, so a pin that moves would jam the gun.
It would have to be loose fit on the hammer pivot pin that the hammer rotates on that would allow the wobble we are seeing, plus the hammer being too narrow.
Joe
I'd like to add my bit of experience with this as to hopefully help out any future owners. I had very slight rubbing on the left side of the hammer from the factory. I ended having to sand the polymer around the hammer VERY slightly and had a decent double action pull (Well after the CGW parts).
A few weeks ago I had serious binding and while the hammer was pulled down for single action it would sometimes "stick", resulting in a dead trigger. Turned out to be the hammer strut pin had walked its way out and had been rubbing on the hammer cage. I contacted CGW and asked about this and if it was common, Daved was extremely helpful and patient with me on the phone. He mentioned that most likely the rear hammer cage is slightly out of spec on some of these guns, and I tend to agree.
I called CZ and after much discussion customer service said that their fix for this would be to stake the hammer pin. They stated that this is very common on the steel 75 pistols and that it is done on all pistols as they have left the factory. Customer service was friendly altogether and I opted to just stake the pin myself and since then have had no other issues with the hammer sticking back.
I would really like a new hammer cage, but at least for me CZ would not sell me the part. I believe the gun now is 100%.
Point of this story....Check your strut pin!!!!!!!