The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ BREN => Topic started by: Border Dave on May 08, 2016, 02:16:07 PM
-
This is a legitimate question. Why would one choose a Bren 805 over an AR? I know nothing about the Bren 805 except that it's the same caliber as an AR15.
-
Why choose an 805 Bren? Because you want an 805 Bren.
-
Well I have been looking at the Bren and I believe it would be a great suppressor host and an awesome SBR. I would likely get the pistol version.
With that being said an AR will have endless accessories and parts availability will never be an issue.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
If you love CZ's and don't have a CZ modern style rifle, the Bren 805 fills that void perfectly.
Check out MAC's youtube video on the Bren 805https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCaBI6QURGg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCaBI6QURGg)
-
Because I have lots of AR's in all kinds of different lengths and just wanted something different.
-
^^^ Yep. A little variety is nice. I have several AR's, and if I could only have one rifle it would be one of them. But I still like to shoot other guns.
-
OK. Thanks for all the replies.
-
I don't have a Bren. I did buy a SIG 556R a few years ago. For awhile, after getting and shooting the SIG, there was no doubt in my mind my next rifle would be a SIG 556 or a SIG 516.
I didn't get either. I built more AR15's. Couple of AR15 pistols, three AR15 rifles/carbines. Why AR15's? Cheaper. Easier to get a wide variety of parts for. Easy to change parts around on them. Accurate. I have spares for them.
I Bren would probably be nice. My advice would be to wait till they've made it a few years and you know parts are going to be easy to get. The SIG fizzled. No longer made. New models have issues. They may stop making the "new" 556's as well. Parts? No idea where to buy spares if I need them.
If CZ does the Bren rifle like they do they're pistols then parts should be easy to get. But I'll wait and see.
Then again, there's the cool factor. And the "Hey, what is that? I've never seen one of those before" factor when you take it to the range.
-
Spare parts from the pistol variant can be bought from the CZ-USA webstore. I'm sure majority of the parts from the pistol model will fit the carbine model.
805 Brens are replacing the vz58's that are probably still being utilized by the Czech Republic military. That's says a lot. I had a chance to own a vz58 rifle and it was a nice really quality rifle that fired a 7.62x39 round, however a bit dated.
As long as the 805 Brens are in the service by the Czech Republic and a handful of countries I think the 805 Bren is in it for the long run. Now that CZ is gaining momentum I feel that 805 Bren will be a long time competitor against the Scar.
-
Cool factor and variety are the only reasons I would get one and that's not enough for me.
ARs have a lot going for them: price, track record, new & used parts, DIY builds, caliber conversions. I won't even consider one until I see a reliable 22 conversion kit on the market that doesn't cost more than a complete handgun.
-
It is a piston driven gun as opposed to the direct gas impingement system of the AR. This means no buffer tube which allows for a folding or collapsible stock that's much shorter than an AR. That's a pretty solid benefit of piston guns. Other than that... Direct gas gums get the whole bolt and area where the gun cycles rounds much dirtier than piston guns. BUT modern AR's will run extraordinarily reliably and some cleaning ensures that. Supposedly AR's are more inherently accurate than piston guns, but modern piston driven rifles seem to be very accurate. The differences probably would be worth debating at extreme Accuracy competition level rifles, but not for most people. Again these are generalities and would apply to why get a Bren. And I'm sure other members can elaborate more eloquently on these matters. Hope that ads some basic level reasoning.
-
Cool/awesome/unique factor. Brand loyalty as well... Personally, I'm awaiting the release of the 806 version, if/when, it happens...
For the $1999 MSRP on the carbine version, you can build two top-notch ARs, including even if you buy complete assembled uppers...
CDNN has the LWRC short stroke piston AR uppers that have recently been adopted by a few different militaries for $699 w/o sights and $799 w/ sights. You can buy Adams Arms cosmetic blem short stroke piston uppers for $475 or so...
Theoretically, the Bren should be more reliable since not a "conversion" like many of the AR piston variants, but not necessarily so these days...
In brief, I see the Bren as primarily an option for someone who wants a current generation military issue small arm but doesn't want polymer a la the SCAR or ACR, or various bullpups and also wants something other than an AR or AK variant (the other modern configurations)...
If you want maximum accuracy, you truly cannot beat an AR w/ free float rail -- properly built w/ quality components, they are as accurate as mid to high level bolt actions, but not premium bolt actions...
The AR is a weapon system I really want to not like, but now for a cost/value perspective, they are increasingly a tremendous value.
805 Brens are replacing the vz58's that are probably still being utilized by the Czech Republic military. That's says a lot. I had a chance to own a vz58 rifle and it was a nice really quality rifle that fired a 7.62x39 round, however a bit dated.
As long as the 805 Brens are in the service by the Czech Republic and a handful of countries I think the 805 Bren is in it for the long run. Now that CZ is gaining momentum I feel that 805 Bren will be a long time competitor against the Scar.
Brens and SCARs basically tied in Czech testing, but Brens won on account of being domestically produced and CZ being stringed along for decades in trying to develop something to replace the VZ58... As a carbine and considering the caliber, I do think the VZ58 has significant advantages over the Bren, but in some ways it's inferior too. Posted some Czech feedback on the early 805s vs VZ58s in an early thread in this forum.
And all things considered, the Bren isn't actually that widely adopted.
From wikipedia:
Czech Republic: Currently being introduced as the standard issue rifle for all parts of the Armed Forces and for selected units of law enforcement.
Egypt: Egypt has announced that it purchased an unspecified number of CZ 805 BREN A1.[6]
Mexico: Used by Federal Police since 2014[7]
Moldova: Used by internal troops with a number of other European arms bought in 2013.[citation needed]
Slovakia: 688 pieces bought by Slovak Army in November 2014, along with same number of CZ 75 pistols.[8]
Vs my other preferred niche military small arm, the galil:
Bolivia[13]
Botswana[13]
Brazil: The Pol?cia Militar do Estado do Par? (PMPA; Military State Police of Par?) ordered 555 Magal Carbines in 2001.[13][14]
Cameroon: Issued to presidential guard units.[15]
Chile: Chilean Air Force SAR, ARM variants.Chilean Army Galil ACE Model 23, replacing some of the SIG-FAMAE rifles. Investigations Police of Chile ERTA Tactical Response SWAT team, (replaced by Tavor TAR-21) and regular units.
Colombia: Standard issue rifle. Produced under license by Indumil.[16] Also adopted the Galil ACE rifle by the middle of 2010, produced by Indumil.[17] FARC rebels use captured examples against the Colombian armed forces.[18]
Costa Rica[13]
Democratic Republic of Congo[13]
Djibouti[19]
Dominican Republic[citation needed]
El Salvador[20]
Estonia: Uses 5.56mm versions of the Galil AR, SAR, ARM and the 7.62mm Galil Sniper.[21][22][23][24]
Fiji[25]
Georgia: Uses GALATZ sniper and Micro-Galil assault rifles [26]
Guatemala: 3,000 ACE[27]
Haiti[13]
Honduras: The Galil SAR was adopted in the late 1970s by the Honduran Army, until it was replaced by the American-made M16A1 through U.S. military aid in the 1980s. The Galil SARs were then transferred to the Honduran National Police, where they are still in use. In 2011, the Honduran government approved the purchase of the Galil ACE 21 assault rifle for use by the Army and Air Force. The Galil ACE made its first public appearance on Sept 15, 2013 in the hands of the new unit PMOP (Military Police of Public Order).[citation needed]
India[13]
Indonesia: Komando Pasukan Katak (Kopaska) tactical diver group and Komando Pasukan Khusus (Kopassus) special forces group.[28]
Knesset Guard with Galil
Israel: Israel Defense Forces[29] and Knesset Guard.[30]
Italy: The Italian firearms manufacturing firm Vincenzo Bernardelli S.r.l.
manufactured under licence quantities of the Galil assault rifle in two different models for governmental use in the 1980s.[31] The Bernardelli Mod.377 VB-STR assault rifle was an outright clone of the Galil AR/ARM variant, while the Bernardelli Mod.378 VB-SR assault carbine was a modified clone of the Galil SAR with a different magazine well that accepted STANAG magazines, much similar in concept and look to the above-mentioned optional magazine adapter currently available for the Israeli-made models, except that the Bernardelli VB-SR could be manufactured with permanent STANAG magazine well modification on demand.[32] The rifles competed to the trial for the adoption of a new 5.56?45mm NATO caliber rifle, but lost to the Beretta 70/90 assault weapons system. However, as of today, both models result by official schedules to be in the inventories of the Italian National Police, and are known to be deployed with the NOCS team.[33]
Lesotho[13]
Mexico: Secretar?a de Seguridad P?blica.[34]
Mongolia[35][36]
Myanmar: Made with assistance from Israeli weapon specialists as the MA series.[37]
Nepal[13]
Nicaragua[13]
Panama
Paraguay: Indumil-made Galils for the Fuerzas de Operaciones de Policias Especiales, SENAD (Drug Enforcement)and main Rifle of the Paraguayan Police [38]
Peru[13]
Philippines[13][39]
Portugal: 5.56mm AR and ARM versions used by the Portuguese Army airborne infantry.[40]
Rwanda[13]
South Africa: Standard assault rifle of the South African National Defence Force. Produced under license in a modified form as the R4 by Denel Land Systems.[41]
Swaziland[13]
Tanzania: MAR version seen in use by Tanzanian special forces in the Congo.[42]
Thailand:Used in small numbers in Department of Corrections[43]
Trinidad and Tobago.[13] The Trinidad and Tobago Regiment uses this weapon as its standard issue. Also used in conjunction with the FN FAL and M16. Galil ACE also used but in limited numbers.
Uganda: This type of weapon is used by the Chieftaincy of Military Intelligence (CMI), and by the Presidential Guard Brigade (PGB), a division of the Special Forces Command (SFC), all within the Uganda People's Defence Force (UPDF).[44]
Ukraine: Sniper variant is used by the "Omega" special forces group. (produced under license as the Fort-301)[45]
Vietnam: Uses Galil AR and Galil Sniper.[46][47]
Or even, the VZ58:
Afghanistan[6]
Angola[7]
Biafra[8]
Chile[citation needed]
Cuba[6]
Cyprus[6]
Czech Republic: standard service rifle,[6][9][10] now being replaced by CZ-805 BREN.[11]
Dominican Republic[citation needed]
Eritrea[6]
Ethiopia[6]
Guatemala[7]
Guinea[6]
India[7]
Indonesia[citation needed]
Iraq[7]
Libya[6]
Mozambique[6]
Northern IrelandNorthern Irish Loyalist Paramilitaries[12]
Slovakia:[6] Standard service rifle.
Somalia[6]
Tanzania[6]
Uganda[citation needed]
Vietnam[13]
But CZ USA does have their act together most of the time, so I have no doubt that legacy weapon system support and parts will remain available...
-
I'm sure factory parts will be available. I want to see aftermarket support and used parts availability.
There are some great piston ARs on the market. You can even get side charger setups. During the last US military rifle trials ADCOR was in the top 3 and it ran both upgrades.
I love the folder concept but unless you are a paratrooper, tanker or crowded into a personnel carrier thier utility is limited. My biggest complain is that the stock rarely offers a good fit, but I guess that is the nature of comprises.
-
My answer is very simple and the one nobody else has said - I don't like the AR system. I cannot stand that SPROIIINNNGGG in my ear every time I pull the trigger. Last AR rifle I fired was an M16A1 in 1984, never picked one up after that. I had AKs, vz-58s, Mini-14s, but not one AR, nor did I ever shoot one.
I agree with the cool factor, especially when you're like me, and you buck the crowd. EVERYONE on the firing line has an AR of one kind or another. The funny thing is when I see a large number of AR guys in full Tommy Tactical outfits, AR loaded with geegaws and doodads, shooting from the prone with huge scopes...at targets 50 yards away... :o I like to stretch it out a wee bit farther than that. Now I do have to say the last time I was out there a co worker of mine was nailing a 700 yard gong with his AR regularly, but it's his custom build that with scope would be about $1000 more than the BREN list. Milner's AR-15 builds start at $1,500 and go up from there...but what I saw of his work, they're probably worth it.
So, the cool factor to me is exactly that - "Hey, what IS that?" "Wow, that's cool" and it helps support my favorite firearms company when I let these guys shoot the BREN, P-09 or Scorpion. Matter of fact, that last trip to CATS range both the owner and the instructor are going to buy Scorpions and BREN 805 rifles ASAP.
Brand loyalty, too, but that wasn't the primary reason. The primary reason was picking up the LEO version at SHOT and discovering I loved it right from the get go. After that is was all downhill. :D
-
The buffer spring noise isn't much of an issue nowadays with better machining practices. If you have an AR that does it excessively just smooth the inside of the buffer tube and get a better buffer spring.
I agree though if you have a rifle that goes SPROINGGG its really annoying.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
It's also that herd follower thing... :) I always love supporting the underdog, the little guy, and setting my own trends. :D
-
Id like one..i have never owned an ar..never even shot 1 until my buddy let me borrow his..ar's are a meh to me.....a lot will depend on cost for me
-
Id like one..i have never owned an ar..never even shot 1 until my buddy let me borrow his..ar's are a meh to me.....a lot will depend on cost for me
This is true. There is definitely a difference between an average Guy's AR ($600) and then a guys that has several or researched ($1500+).
I'm not saying you need to spend that much but don't buy the DPMS/Stag or anything at your Walmart.
Get a proper BCM/DD or "possibly" Colt.
Ok so I may have mis read. Your gonna spend about the same for a quality rifle but the Bren will be higher over all.
-
The buffer spring noise isn't much of an issue nowadays with better machining practices. If you have an AR that does it excessively just smooth the inside of the buffer tube and get a better buffer spring.
I agree though if you have a rifle that goes SPROINGGG its really annoying.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
JP captured springs nearly eliminate the sprong... There are also some hydraulic piston options that do the same... Also, carbine type stocks vs the hollow A1 style seem to amplify and transmit much less of that sound to the jaw/ear.
-
Id like one..i have never owned an ar..never even shot 1 until my buddy let me borrow his..ar's are a meh to me.....a lot will depend on cost for me
This is true. There is definitely a difference between an average Guy's AR ($600) and then a guys that has several or researched ($1500+).
I'm not saying you need to spend that much but don't buy the DPMS/Stag or anything at your Walmart.
Get a proper BCM/DD or "possibly" Colt.
Ok so I may have mis read. Your gonna spend about the same for a quality rifle but the Bren will be higher over all.
I think stag arms puts out really quality parts, but not an expert on complete rifles. Prefer their parts to DD actually. BCM is reliable, but "milspec" doesn't always mean max performance as civilian consumers typically define...
By no means an AR expert, but for complete builds, Windham would prob be my first choice for an economical gun with Aero second and Bushmaster or Stag third... FN commercial is worth mentioning, though their commercial stuff is built in same factory as military, it's built to different specs and different blueprints and on different machines so not to infringe upon their sublicense agreement of Colt plans required for them to fulfill the US military contracts/specs.
For a higher end but still affordable offering, I think it's tough to beat Colt especially their barrels, though BCM is a good equivalent on everything but barrel accuracy... DD is probably worth including at this level too.
High end, I don't know that anyone can really compete w/ noveske or larue. Knights too.
AND ranking the piston AR makers/systems is a whole other discussion...
Complete DIY, high quality with sale prices you can find in a variety of places on the web -- off the top of my head on parts and pricing:
Aero precision lower for $50.
Stag Lower Parts Kit w/ trigger for $70.
Aero precision standard upper for $100. or Aero precison M4e1 upper (effectively monolithic upper) for $125, both complete.
Aero precision railed handguards for either upper for ~$125 (rail req to complete M4e1 mono upper).
Bolt carrier group, bcm: $175
Buffer tube, stock, retainer, buffer, spring: $100 for H2 buffer, car spring, midrange magpul stock, and POF USA enhanced buffer tube.
Ballistic advantage barrel w/ gas block installed: $200
Barrel nut included w/ either of handguard options mentioned.
Gas tube: $15
Pistol Grip: $20
Muzzle device, standard A2: $20
BUIS: $100
Charging handle: $20
Total: ~$1000 for a really high end custom AR if you build
And you can easily find further cost savings in places while still having a reliable gun such as barrel, bcg, buis, stag lpk to psa, etc.
You can upgrade further on lower w/ geissele g2s trigger for $125, norgon mag release $90, Knights ambi safety $50, odin works XMR2 mag release $20, bad lever +$30, rear receiver plate w/ QD slot $20, bcm ambi charging handle $60 for a totally tricked out gun at an additional $400.
For complete uppers, as mentioned, you can get a base blem Adams Arms Piston for $500 and several of the BCM stripped uppers come in at the $500-600 range as well (with bcgs w/ both companies -- believe AA comes with buffer and perhaps buffer tube and spring too) . Then all you need is a rail/hg, sights, stock and buffer and a lower build -- which can be done for as little as $200 if you're flexible on quality.
So that's effectively 2 high quality ARs that can be built for 1 Bren carbine, which was my original point... But one can only effectively shoot one gun at a time, so YMMV. Which also ties into optics, which I didn't list as cost will be the same regardless of weapon system...
-
To be clear, saying on price/value + utility/versatility perspective, it's really tough to beat the AR these days, not that it's categorically superior to the Bren in every or even most ways... The AR is the "safe" choice.
If looking for cool factor, that's entirely subjective.
If looking other factors like reliability, ammo standardization, personal ergo preferences, etc, that's very much defined by any one person's own goals and objectives and perspectives.
Cleaning and maintenance matters too -- if you shoot a lot and/or frequently, piston guns are hands down easier to clean than DI ones, especially if you're anal about cleaning...
Though I really dig the original Galil for instance, I don't care at all for the appearance of the modernized Galil ACE -- though it's a proven super reliable and effective weapon system. Same price, Galil vs Bren (and that both use same stanag mags -- w/ galil ace and galil mags, it might tilt the balance to the galil), I'd probably go w/ the Bren. So my bias on looks leads me to preferring the Bren. W/ 5.56 and inherently mild recoil, I also like the idea of a short stroke piston and a lighter and balanced bolt carrier than the AK-derived version in the Galil; mention as definitely part of the equation too... So it's stuff that has a lot to do w/ my experience, whether when pulling the trigger or looking at the weapon...
If I had to choose between a $1500 AR in whatever configuration I could choose and the Bren, it would be a really tough choice as the quality and capabilities and known performance per dollar spent of all the components is a much firmer "known" on the AR vs the 805 Bren.
All things considered: first gun, my recommendation is to get a midrange AR configured for primary need (target shooting, varmint shooting, home defense, shtf, etc) and a bunch of ammo and mags -- would recommend DI, but piston works too: main thing is DI has more parts commonality but main gain is learning manual of arms for what's probably the most common semi-auto rifle weapon system in this county. Use it and learn what you like and don't about it. Select second weapon system w/ needs and informed opinion from use...
2nd gun, get whatever cool factor or niche use you weren't able to cover with your first weapon.
Lastly, b/c I don't really feel much emotional connection to ARs vs other weapon systems, I don't care nearly as much to use them, which means subjecting to inevitable abuse -- whether throwing in the truck or setting down on rocks, etc. Weapons that I care more about seem to get less use and/or more delicate care, which objectively, is the reverse of what it should be with what is ultimately a tool... If you won't make substantial use of a weapon for fear of dings or damage, it's really contrary to its intended purpose... But if you're the type that once you get the first dent in your truck, you're able to let go, then perhaps this is less of a problem... W/ my galils and even VZs for instance, I have "safe queen wood furniture" and then other more abused wood/polymer furniture I'll mount and use without care... YMMV.
-
I don't think I'd choose a Bren over an AR, for serious use/training that is. I'd pick one up just for the sheer cool factor/uniqueness of it.
-
I got my Bren with the purpose of it becoming my daily patrol rifle. I planned to use it for firearms instruction as well and letting my students use it. I also let my students shoot my scar 17. Why? Because in my opinion the reasons for owning an AR platform as your go to rifle have now dwindled. There are several military weapons, most notably the scar and Tavor, that have started replacing the AR as patrol rifles. From a law enforcement perspective I've noticed the trends in civilian small arms emulate what police and military currently use. With military arms they may not necessarily get the best weapon platform due to politics and cost, but on a department level we tend to buy the best available for the price that we can afford. So if the department decides that they want scar 16's for $1500, the Bren would fit that roll perfectly. Add to that CZ offers a significant law enforcement discount as well as incentives for buying more than 20 rifles. The balance tips even more in favor of the Bren. I would shoot one before making up your mind, but I'm sure everyone here has nothing but good things to say about the rifle. And I'm sure that most of us could afford whatever we want. I love my scar 17 because it is such a vast improvement over any other 308 auto rifle on the market. High end piston AR's included. But the scar 16, to me, did not offer such significant advances over my PWS piston AR that I could justify the ridiculous cost. The Bren, however, is actually an improved scar 16. Add to that the fact you get more gun, for less cost? I was sold. So to me and most people I believe we will never give up our AR's, but you can't deny it is a dated platform and no longer the best of the best.
-
Erasmus 7 nice post but why did you choose the Bren, what qualities make it better other than a LE discount?
-
The Bren, however, is actually an improved scar 16.
Please expand on this statement.
-
I have no experience with the SCAR, other than some photos, so I am also curious about that. I am VERY happy with my BREN, too. :)
-
The Bren, however, is actually an improved scar 16.
Please expand on this statement.
The Bren was designed from the start to compete with scar, but with the advantage of having a scar already designed and a functional firearm to work off of. The Bren has a lower mass bolt carrier as compared to the scar. I'm not sure but I believe that this is one of the reasons for the lower recoil impulse. It has less mass to slam into the rear which transfers lesser recoil through the stock. Another improvement is the easier to clean and dissemble gas piston. I'm sure I don't need to explain why this is such a big advantage. The improved upper receiver is cnc machined as opposed to extruded like the scar. While this makes the gun heavier it also increases the rigidity of the upper. In my opinion the added weight up top also contributes to the lighter recoil of the Bren. The Bren barrel system is improved in that unlike the scar, the Bren is able to change from 5.56, 300 blackout and 308, all in the same platform. The 308 caliber conversion requiring a seperate magwell in addition to the barrel. So with your Bren you can in essence have a scar 16 and 17. The Bren is overbuilt for a 5.56 due to it needing to be able to handle the heavier recoil and pressure of the 308. I'm not a CZ fanboy and the Bren is actually the first CZ I have owned. I've been praising the scar since I first shot it. It is a great weapon platform and my scar 17 is my favorite rifle by far. I hope I answered your question as un biased as possible. These are my opinions and facts taken from research. I hope this helps anyone interested in purchasing a Bren. I don't think you will be disappointed.
-
Thank you for that reasoned and fact filled post, sir! 8)
-
No problem. I own a lot of firearms and I don't buy junk. While the Bren 806 is supposed to fix the weight issue and also have a boot release, I am confident that the aftermarket will have fixes for those soon. I also hate to say it but I like the looks of the 805 better than the 806.
-
Not LE, but I would think a folding stock rifle like the Bren would be a tremendous improvement in allowing one to deploy rifle faster, including keeping the patrol rifle in the cab (but not in the way as much as a say a shotgun or AR) vs the trunk, which is where most LE I know personally seem to keep theirs...
Same/similar argument for the increasing popularity of the Tavor IMO (plus the full length vs SBR barrels, ballistics, according compactness and reduced muzzle blast indoors if unsuppressed, etc).
For LE ranges (often 25 yards or less, nearly always 100 yards or less), the accuracy difference between higher quality ARs and barrels, and the Bren doesn't matter much for those who aren't SWAT snipers...
While I am pretty much the complete opposite of an AR fanboy, I begrudging have to give the weapon system merit... Which is why I don't agree w/ the "dwindled" position. The AR parts and accessory market is huge -- even full ambi lower receivers are now available. Heck, much of the current military modernization package is items/upgrades moved from the civilian market to the military... Better than milspec AR parts and components abound, and personalization type components are available for nearly any wish one might have...
If you want to talk DI vs piston op, pistons always win when suppressed. But there are piston ARs available and the current "best" as determined by military units w/ unlimited funds in 5.56 is the HK416, which is a short stroke piston AR. Piston for suppressed reasons previously mentioned and also for abuse torture test performance. But to keep accuracy, they had to go w/ a heavy barrel so weight penalty twice for piston and heavy barrel -- on average, DIs w/ flee float rails can always be made more accurate than a piston gun...
For a .308 carbine, I tend to agree w/ you on the SCAR-H on basis of weight, ambi/ergo controls (note for those not familiar, the scar does not have an ambi bolt release but does have a reversible charging handle), handling, etc -- but for a carbine role, I'd typically prefer a caliber other than .308... Best .308 semi-auto if needing just one rifle or for every role? No, not in my opinion. I look at semi-auto .308s best use being for marksman roles beyond 400 yards (excluding hunting)...
I will say the SCAR is most definitely a superior choice to the M14 in the desert and for accurizing...
.308 main battle rifle, I'd probably go w/ an FN FAL, .308 AK/variant, or (less ideal than prev two IMO, but still a better all around choice than the SCAR-H for a MBR) PTR91 due to IMO being equally to more robust, much cheaper to own (spare parts and mags and weapon cost itself), and none having significant drawbacks vs the SCAR H other than weight...
For accuracy, an AR10 (same arguments as above for the AR15) would be a better choice for a DMR type setup... And with the 400-800 yard ideal use (1000 yard doable, though I'd prefer a higher caliber and more accurate bolt gun at those ranges) noted earlier for .308 -- the AR10 is actually probably my ideal configuration for my needs in this caliber.
Agree that the Bren is a tremendous value vs it's latest generation military rifle peers -- if ignoring updated AR and AK variants in particular.
-
I apologize if I used the word dwindled incorrectly or not in the right context. The point I was trying to get across was that the choices we have available, all options considered when choosing the best modern rifle platform for your needs, are far greater than ever before. And that the main reasons for owning an AR are less than they were before. I agree the scar does not now have the huge aftermarket of the AR, however, the scar has a huge following and I have customized mine with the best parts I could source. The platform is only 10 years old. Compare that to the AR. I feel that the Bren will also develop a strong civilian following, which will in turn increase aftermarket support. I agree with a lot of your points as well, and that it why I own several AR platforms. The main reason being commonality of parts. I can swap uppers and have several different length and caliber Weaons for a fraction of owning a scar. But the Bren is a lot cheaper than the scar and just as if not more robust. Time will tell.
-
Wasn't the saying that the AR is the Barbie for grown men, because of all the accessories? ;D
I could see the Tavor being a HUGE hit in our towers, with the limited room on the catwalks.
I would love to see our tactical Support Units look at the BREN, but they'd be MUCH more likely to love the Scorpion at first sting...
-
I think you can sum up "why" in one word: T-handle ;D
-
I read dwindled in the context of emphasis below, emphasis mine:
I got my Bren with the purpose of it becoming my daily patrol rifle. I planned to use it for firearms instruction as well and letting my students use it. I also let my students shoot my scar 17. Why? Because in my opinion the reasons for owning an AR platform as your go to rifle have now dwindled.
[...]
So to me and most people I believe we will never give up our AR's, but you can't deny it is a dated platform and no longer the best of the best.
To be clear, I was only intending to share my perspective, and why it differs. Firearms are like most things -- be it trucks, dogs, women, politics, religion -- everyone has their own opinion and believe it to be right.
If not clear -- wanted to communicate that I don't agree that the AR is dated/archaic and cannot be made to compete w/ the "best of the best" -- recognizing that best of is typically subjective and dependent upon test design, not anything special between various weapon designs...
The original design of the AR15 is perhaps "dated," but the system and its variants continue to evolve. I would not classify the AR15 system where it stands now as dated or unable to compete. There are billet ambi lowers and ability to have full ambi controls on forged lowers w/ just a bit of dremeling for the bolt release to go to right... There are short stroke piston options, long stroke piston options, the CMMG mutant that takes AK mags and reliably fires 7.62x39, etc. There is so much diversity in the AR market that an "AR rifle" covers a tremendously broad scope of weapons.
I suppose I should add -- SBR DI ARs in 5.56/.223 w/ less than 11" barrels would be about my last choice for a rifle I'd intend to trust my life to. Now in piston configuration, you can go shorter and not have massive reductions in reliability -- but would still have the massive SBR increases in flash/blast and losses in ballistic capability of rounds fired.
In regards to the SCAR -- I believe there's a reason spec forces have pretty much dropped the SCAR-L in favor of updated M4 variants, and that reason reflects my arguments here. I believe the SCAR-H fills a separate use case.
Again, I'm defending the AR here begrudgingly...
Regardless of price, I thin the Bren gives the SCAR-L/16 a run for the money. W/ the Bren 805 coming in ~$1k less than the SCAR-L/16, I completely agree that it is much more value per dollar spent.
You seem to know a lot about both the SCAR and Bren. How do their barrels compare w/ anticipated longevity? Believe SCAR-L/16 has FN advertised barrel life of 20k rounds and the SCAR-H/17 of 30k rounds, but haven't seen Bren barrel life advertised.
And back to the OP's original question -- it's worth considering caliber as well for selection.
For me in carbine calibers, I prefer 7.62x39 over 5.56 in several respects, but here's a quick summary that might help.
-Indoor home defense: 5.56 (or 9mm pistol) carbine w/ 16" barrel for reduced blast and flash, shorter only if you have a suppressor w/ 5.56
-General purpose carbine for lazy/new shooters: 5.56 as it has light recoil and shoots flat
-General purpose carbine for active shooters (active meaning practice and familiar w/ bullet drop and trajectory) for outside of home use in urban areas (barrier penetration) and in wooded/brush areas (penetration and less deflection): 7.62x39 (prefer the VZ58 vs AK for 7.62x39 carbine)
-General purpose carbine for active shooters (active meaning practice and familiar w/ bullet drop and trajectory) for outside of home use in suburban areas: tossup between 7.62x39 and 5.56, generally longer sightlines than urban areas and construction quality has much less substantial cover of concrete/block/mature trees/etc
-General purpose carbine for active shooters (active meaning practice and familiar w/ bullet drop and trajectory) for prairies, crop farmland, etc, with longer sightlines but still limited by gentle rolling of land: 5.56
-General purpose carbine for long sight view terrain such as flat desert, sparsely wooded mountains at higher elevations or hills in more arid locations (in Appalachia or Ozarks for instance, I'd prefer 7.62x39 most of the time): .308
Note:5.56 does generally penetrate steel better than 7.62x39 where velocity, not mass is most critical... Otherwise, generally 7.62x39 has greater penetration.
7.62x39 you can swap in .300 blk or 6.8 spc, though both cost 2-3x as much per round with minimal add'l performance gains, IMO
7.62x39 is much more suitable for deer and hog hunting as well; I relegate 5.56 to coyotes and smaller
Thinking about big picture insofar as filling needs/roles, I tend to lean towards:
Pistol caliber carbine/SMG: CZ Evo, Colt 9mm, and Keltec 9mm Sub2k are all serviceable w/ different tradeoffs for each, like all of them
SBR: M92 pap or 11.5 in barreled AR (piston ideal here...) -- like these for vehicle, concealed/low(er) profile, and other such uses
General Purpose Carbine: 7.62x39 vz58/variant
Designated Marksman Rifle, or similar -- accurized carbine: 16" Mid-length AR15 Recce setup
Battle Rifle, or similar: traditionally this had to be a .30 caliber rifle, but I really prefer an 18-20" SPR type AR15 setup w/ rifle gas and a barrel tuned to heavy (75gr+) 5.56/.223 projectiles (especially take a look at capability to weight, etc)
Precision setup for self defense: a .308 AR15 M110, or similar setup
Precision setup for the range: a .308 bolt action
Precision setup for a 1000 yard rifle, actually any shooting beyond 750 yards or so: a .300 win mag bolt action
Combine the caliber preferences w/ platform options and you can see how you can really maximize effectiveness in multiple scenarios.
And add a .22lr and a shotgun or two of each (don't like shotguns for home/self-defense, but that's another convo), and you have pretty much all possible long arm defense and sporting needs covered w/ this selection.
Pistols are a separate discussion.
And similar weapons/capabilities can certainly be swapped for any of these, with some tradeoff in shared parts and manual of arms... I certainly have cool factor weapons not included in above and also have purchased weapons not on my ideal list while having yet to acquire all the above as well.
My philosophy (and justification to the mrs): make sure you fulfill the immediate pressing needs for your situation first and foremost (for needs, I'm more budget sensitive and focusing on maximizing performance and value) and then once covered, you can move onto your cool factor, collection, etc, stuff that is typically more expensive and/or less likely to be used. As you realize a known need has been met w/ cool factor weapon, then you can part with earlier acquisitions as you deem appropriate...
Again, on all, YMMV.
-
I think you can sum up "why" in one word: T-handle ;D
Originally charging handle was under the "carry handle" which was actually designed to protect the charging handle, so carry handle might more aptly be described as "charging handle protecting shroud" or similar...
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0493/1289/files/2w3qfeo_large.jpg?5192351771606065739)
http://www.leitner-wise.com/blogs/news/18869751-charging-handle-history-material-and-suitability
-
The old Armalite AR-10 concept rifle. Eugene Stoner was a brilliant man.
-
Indeed he was... AR was one of the first aluminum based firearms... The bren now is as well, and the VZ58 actually has a fair amount of aluminum and other alloys throughout it as well, which was designed around about the same time as the AR.
And actually, the aluminum upper is part of the reason I prefer the Bren over other latest generation military rifles... I wanted to like the ACR, but concept doesn't seem to have fully translated to production, which left the Beretta ARX. (A former marine neighbor of mine has the SCAR-H, and though he was working at a gun range and firearm instructor at the time -- the gun was constantly in transport, not the safe -- he went through 3 stocks in the first 6 months he owned the gun, which is what turned me off of that.) Back to the point, the ARX has had some reliability issues in civilian configuration as have the ACR and SCAR -- the Bren is the only modern weapon that I haven't heard significant issues with in the modern military small arms to reach US shores. (FWIW, I consider the Galil ACE to be a modernized variant, not a new system, and same goes w/ the HK416 and other ARs...)
Another weapon I was interested in, armoredman, you may remember me discussing a year or two back, was the MPAR 556, which is a US made AR18 variant... It too has had reliability issues and growing pains, and no doubt the 805 Bren is superior to it as well (and for the ~$1k the MPAR goes for, you can build a higher quality AR)...
Primary point here is the 805 Bren has had few growing pains, and that's a significant sign of quality, forethought, and a strong suggestion of long-term reliability in my book...
-
I have to say an AR-18o might be interesting...if one could be found:) Nah, I'll stick with the BREN - so far it's fitting me pretty darn well. ;)
-
From everything I've seen, the Bren is a superior weapon to the AR18s/variants. Some echoes of the AR18 in the bren's design though, like most modern short stroke systems...
-
The Military Arms Channel sure has taken a fancy to the Bren. Here's his new rifle version review. He's concealed carrying a CZ variant (sphinx) now too. A side note, his torture test of that pistol surprised me with how reliable it was... I digress. This video did me no favors of making me want a Bren less.
https://youtu.be/2JUHfxKLBfU