The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: CitizenPete on May 25, 2016, 01:30:57 PM
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3Gun
So, I while I am certainly not in any class near a Travis Haley, a Phuc Long, a Rob Ski (or Bob Sled) when it comes to shooting AKMs, I know how to operate them well enough and typically get reasonable % of hits on an IPSC size steel targets within a reasonable time. The handful of classes I've taken over the years have certainly elevated me to the class of a very safety conscious and very comfortable-with-a-gun above mediocre shooter, including with operation of the AKM.
Some of the folks I shoot with are pretty serious traveling 3Gun competitors and I normally trail well behind their times. This gets to me on occasion, but I'm running combloc vs. tricked out AR high speed rifles, and some of them have eyeballs that are half as old as mine. I have plenty of other excuses in my big bag of BS ... :P
If your safely proficient with a shotgun, pistol, and rifle, and you have a safe secure holster, and a few extra bits like mag holders/shotshell dispensers, you owe it to yourself to try 3Gun (or 2Gun, etc) if you haven't done so already. Your vz.58 will be perfect for 3gun IMO. Competing may make you a better shooter and you'll quickly discover the limitations of your guns and rig(s). It has certainly challenged me to get to the next level.
This year I am one of the volunteer Range Officers (RO) at a local range that runs monthly 3Gun events up until the Halloween night shoot (my personal favorite event), which gives me fee-free access to the range and the 3G events, not counting ammo and expenses.
Normally I shoot a OOW MDL VZ2000 or a CSA Vz.58 rifle in 3Gun, and never have used the 1 Frankenstein AR15 (also an OOW receiver) I have in my collection. Being one of about 3 folks that typically compete with a non-AR rifle, I get a bit of ribbing and criticism - if you know what I mean, Comrade. If I had a dollar for every time I heard: "You can run my AR", I could buy another VZ. ;)
So last year I typically ran the following guns and equipment:
Rifle: CSA Vz.58 SBR
Modified trigger pack (varies Zendle DC, FM hack, CSA set), SF brake, Zendl TBR/TMR, RS regulate mount with Trijicon ACOG 3x /Burris Fastfire II red dot on front rail, adjustable stocks.) Kydex mag holder made for me for Vz.58 mags.
Pistol: Walther PPQ 5"
(finest trigger known to man out of the box, and frustrating mag release - moved it to the right side and the sights are horrible for me if a precision shot is required)
Shotgun: Stoeger 3500
Loading port opened a bit, extended mag tube 13+1 total, quick bolt release other bits and bobs uprgades.
Most frustrating gun and inconsistent gun I have ever operated, but still faster than my Mossberg 500 pump (if and when the Stoeger works). The gun design is based on the much more expensive and reliable Benelli inertia driven shotgun, but the Stoeger often misfeeds/double feeds, coughs, farts etc. esp. if the stock is not pulled tight (real tight) into your shoulder. ... and don't ever support the barrel on a barrier.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/CitizenPete/87690F5B-3C20-4FFA-A2FB-6C49B65EF3C8_zpsmqpi4lrw.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/CitizenPete/media/87690F5B-3C20-4FFA-A2FB-6C49B65EF3C8_zpsmqpi4lrw.jpg.html)
So this year I wanted to give some love to other rifles in my collection, as Monty Python said: "Now for something completely different":
Rifle: Saiga AKM (Izmash/FIME Group) SGL-21
Primary Arms 1x6 mounted with a Midwest Ind. mount, ALG trigger upgrade, Fixed US OEM stock with comb pad cheek riser jerry-rigged on with neoprene and vet tape (replaced a shock absorbing, muzzle rising FAB stock tube and stock), OEM AK74 muzzle break and hand guard.
Kydex mag holder made for me for Vz.58 mags - worked fine with Bulgarian Circle 10 AK mags.
Pistol: Walther PPQ 5"
sticking with this
Shotgun: Saiga 12 Gen1 unconverted (had this for years)Extended stock tube and grip for unconverted Saiga12 and FAB stock with cheek riser. 20 round shotshell drumwrapped in rubber tape and 5 round OEM mag which unfortunately put my basic talents in Unlimited 3Gun Classwiththe real shooters, reduced recoil springs, CSS gas puck, MD adjustable gas plug, Tromix charging and big Tromix recoil-reducing muzzle break, Krebs fire control, Lucid Red Dot on a Czech Small Arms VZ.58 high rise optic mount (it worked great on the rail!) I also carved up a vz.58 mag pouch to hold 2 - 8 round mags that I am still waiting for the Promag ("- its in the mail") to replace the springs for.
I just got this monster working in time for the first 3G match so it cycles with bird shot consistently. Hammer, files, dremel, lots of lube, and luck paid off - ran flawlessly. Anyone want to buy a Stoeger? I saw a couple other VEPR 12 shotguns come through but no other Saigas.
So, the rifles and optics were pre-sighted-in a week before at just under 50 yards. (Shotgun with slugs, and #8 birdshot pattern at about 30yds.) The PA1x6 AKM at 50yds.
So not having had a "bad day" here are my observations compared to last year for first time out:
All courses were run clean with some penalties for missed paper (close paper) with rifle.
Pistol: GREAT, same as last year but my shooting was better with it. Going to invest in some extended capacity mags for the Walter and potentially a red dot. I love this gun, mostly.
Shotgun: The Saiga12 is a bleep street sweeper and the 20 round drum kept me knocking down steel rather than reloading. Ran perfect. Compared to the troublesome Stoeger I believe it reduced my times on shotgun targets considerably. Problem is I cant shoot in the Factory or Practical Class with this gun, where I really belong with my shooting peers.
Rifle: Give me back the VZ.58s! The SGL-21 ran flawlessly (of course), but the recoil/muzzle rise combined with the PA optic (which I am not used to), did my times it. Distance shots on steel were great with the PA 1x6, (when I kept the muzzle down) but all the close in shots were understooting to the point I was missing rapid shot paper target circles and received penalties adding to my time. The 1x6 has the 7.62x39 BDC reticle, but does not have a center red dot for fast acquisition. The recoil on the AKM with the OEM muzzle break was not manageable for me to consistently get double shots on steel esp. while moving, but using the fast zoom lever I had installed on the PA optic allowed for fairly easy hits on steel heads at 50. Definitely need to work on my mag swaps too. ::) So the AKM rifle op times killed my time scores more than anything else. Obviously most of it was the shooter and not necessarily the gun. practice practice
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/CitizenPete/0A7464D3-4943-4F70-88DD-701E65B00F99_zpsl6taoqfm.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/CitizenPete/media/0A7464D3-4943-4F70-88DD-701E65B00F99_zpsl6taoqfm.jpg.html)
I'll want to operate the AKM again at least once more after practicing, if just to get some more time with it in the "high stress" competition scenarios, but I may swap in a 3x ACOG combined with a 1x Burris red dot to see how that does compared to the 1x6.
Running the longer length PA 1x6 optic on a VZ.58 would require me to use the Magwedge full rail for mounting, and the occasional case ejection failure might ruin my day during an event like this.
Bottom line: the Saiga12 is a monster and a keeper, the AKM was fun, however I run VZ.58s faster and therefore they are coming back online for 3Gun for the majority of the 3Gun season. O0
P.S. No, I don't want to run your AR.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/CitizenPete/45652559-BBBA-4F88-AC71-4E313AE0BFE0_zps7xrozt08.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/CitizenPete/media/45652559-BBBA-4F88-AC71-4E313AE0BFE0_zps7xrozt08.jpg.html)
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When you started 3 gun did you have any formal training?
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When you started 3 gun did you have any formal training?
I had my CCW, and had taken several tactical pistol and rifle classes, but no 3 gun classes. If you have a good secure holster, a way to carry some spare mags and ammo, just do it. If your new people will help you with the rules and safety requirements.
I started with a Glock with a good holster and double mag carrier, Mossberg 500 pump, and a VZ.58. Carried extra VZ mag in my back pocket and shot shells in a cargo pants pocket.
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Sound pretty cool. I've been thinking that once I relocate i might want to try 2-gun if there's an opportunity. The USPSA world is starting to draw my attention as well but my pistol skills will need to improve for either.
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Sound pretty cool. I've been thinking that once I relocate i might want to try 2-gun if there's an opportunity. The USPSA world is starting to draw my attention as well but my pistol skills will need to improve for either.
Your pistol skills will improve most after you join.
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Sound pretty cool. I've been thinking that once I relocate i might want to try 2-gun if there's an opportunity. The USPSA world is starting to draw my attention as well but my pistol skills will need to improve for either.
Your pistol skills will improve most after you join.
For me it was shotgun reloads most. You don't realize how long it takes to reload shot shells until your doing it under the clock.
Enter a course of fire with 22 birdshot shotgun targets plus two slug targets and a Mossberg 5+1 capacity (plus pistol and rifle targets) and it's a long haul reloading. That's why the 3G shotguns have extended tubes and large
mags/drums at the competition levels.
But don't let that stop you. Any semi auto shut gun will do. Like I said Instarted with a 5+1 Mossberg pump.
Most classes of shooters (practical and factory) start with 8+1 before the timer starts, and only then can load to capacity.
Luckily the VZ.58 with 30 round mags is equivalent to AR15 capacities for the rifle.
(http://3gunnation.com/Portals/0/EasyDNNNews/thumbs/180890/727Jordan%20Shotgun.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Nmq93VPSzEQ/TqLpTQCKn_I/AAAAAAAAATg/HWVYwSsaD2c/s850/Ilyn.jpg)
How the pros do it!
Most of the really good guys can load 4 rounds is a tube in just around 5 seconds (while moving) I am almost double that time, hence going to the Saiga 20 round drum. This competitor below is practicing loading 8 rounds! Holy crap... Video:
https://youtu.be/1s0be2S9Djo
Here is Miculek demonstrating a reloader and shooting 8 shots in 3.5 seconds including the reload. The gun and equipment he uses are not legal in practical and factory classes.
https://youtu.be/xXkyEbrqNGw
He isn't human.
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Sound pretty cool. I've been thinking that once I relocate i might want to try 2-gun if there's an opportunity. The USPSA world is starting to draw my attention as well but my pistol skills will need to improve for either.
Your pistol skills will improve most after you join.
I can believe that, just what little reading and watching I've done has helped already.
CP, as for shotguns, I've shot ones belonging to friends but I've never owned one. As it happens, I just never got around to getting one so there's another learning curve for me, haha. I've always wanted to try skeet shooting, although I guess that's a whole other thing.
Jerry Miculek is amazing, indeed. It seems there's nothing he can't shoot like a high-speed machine.
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Thanks for the report CP -- very interesting stuff there.
gwvt:
used 870 magnum $235: http://summitgunbroker.com/870-mag.html
used 870 police magnum $320: http://summitgunbroker.com/870p-ws.html
I picked up a police mag from them last year and very happy w/ overall condition. Got two 870 wingmasters at $179 or $180 or so as well -- those were definitely more worn and 2 3/4" shells only, but great actions on all 3... Not seeing the wingmasters on the site anymore though. You will want to replace springs and such before serious use.
870 police magnums are the gold standard for pump action shotguns. The only shotgun I was considering over the 870 police mag was the magpul 870 fde tactical: https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/37_64_991/products_id/90807/Remington+870+TACT+12+18.5+MAGPUL+FDE
But swapping stock and grip is easy enough if you can live w/o the ceracoat or duracoat -- forget which was on that 870.
Centerfire systems had new 870 police for $449 recently but looks like they went out of stock: https://www.slickguns.com/product/remington-870-police-parkerized-12ga-20-4-rd-44999
870 express tacticals are interesting too if you want barrel threaded for chokes: https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/56472
Choke threaded short(er) barrels also allow you to install a gator shotgun spreader, which is about the closest item to a claymore that's legal for civilians to own without tax stamps: http://www.paradigmsrp.com/gator-shotgun-spreader/
https://youtu.be/-hOa24Sob8w
I'm not big on shotguns for defensive use in no small part due to reloading speed, but also capacity (related to reloading), recoil (12g shotguns aren't something everyone in family can easily and confidently use), followup shot speed, and precision reasons. But none of that matters for 3 gun.
Skeet shooting is an entirely different animal and you'll want a different setup there most likely. It is really good for learning to lead shots, understanding the importance of pointing and weapon weight/balance, and generally learning to shoot at non-static targets...
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RSR ...
Most interesting write-up & feed-back on your 3G experience ! Many thanks.
Must confess I am also a complete sucker for dynamic shooting :)
There is something about trying to perform tasks precisely & remain accurate with adrenaline pumping that makes dynamic shooting so great. I also 100% agree with you that the added pressure of the clock makes you, IMO, a better or at least a much much confident & safer shooter.
I now find static shooting a tad tedious so I try to organise for UK shooters something similar to 3 Guns in the Czech Republic. Sadly, nothing as good as your well developped 3 guns challenge you shot in the US. We do short parcours using multiple guns in each run according to the situation, trying to include everything that you would learn during a Tac class, ie : tac or speed reloads, forced malfunctioning management etc..
Waiting for the "Bip" ...
(http://i67.tinypic.com/30j7jeq.jpg)
So far I have always used a Glock 17 but for the next one can' t wait to shoot it with my new P01 Omega ;)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/hv9qwh.jpg)
I run my standard open sights Vz58 as my rifle or sometimes my krink M92. It is also a great little rifle but the fire selector is not as intuitive as the Vz's and I have not yet managed to operate it as fast as the Vz.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/65mis3.jpg)
(http://i68.tinypic.com/20zvj2x.jpg)
At that point in the run, we had to use a "found" Glock that had a double-feed pre-prepared ( could be any other malfunction), clear it and of course engage asap,
(http://i64.tinypic.com/16i89y.jpg)
Shot-gun is a "Turkish" jobby, not mine, nothing as remotely as sexy as your splendid verp12 ... (ok ... I am truly very jealous there ;) )
(http://i64.tinypic.com/14o6as2.jpg)
Each trips we try to create new scenarios, barricades etc ... I am currently looking for a suitable range where we could do "4 guns" and introduce a true longer run follow with some bolt action (or SVD ;) ) shooting on minimum 100 meters or longer range targets and possibly a "wounded" drag to get a tad sweatier and justify the end of day's consumpsion of excellent Czech beer ;).
Trips after trips it is getting better & better and I appreciate it probaly looks all a bit amateurish to you guys, but it is the best I can come up with to shot something that we can not shoot with proper guns in the UK.
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Hey CP,
What's the folding stock adapter/mount of your VZ? What optic mount are you using as well? Thanks.
Marco
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Froggy -- CP's writeup.
I agree, the M92 PAP can't match the VZ58s speed as a carbine.
In the US Krebs, makes a trigger finger dustcover rivet tab for the paps that helps w/ safety speed -- standard Krebs safeties/dust covers don't fit the Yugo guns (detents in receivers vs dustcovers are in different places...).
The Krebs safety I have been thinking about adding though I haven't fully researched any fitment issues: https://youtu.be/zX5gQVi2M_M
Worst case, I'm definitely going to go w/ a Galil mag release since it has the trigger finger actuator pad.
(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m106/Desertblade/Magrelease001.jpg)
One thing I highly recommend for the Krink is a Bulgarian 4 piece flashhider/brake.
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Hey CP,
What's the folding stock adapter/mount of your VZ? What optic mount are you using as well? Thanks.
Marco
The folder/tube assembly is something from FAB Defense. I think the hinge is sourced by FAB from IMI. It might be a Galil hinge? I posted some pics long ago on it during my build, here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=63778.msg494900#msg494900
Mount is a two piece RS Regulate, with VZ58 lower mount for the side rail, and the upper part is for the ACOG. One of the best mounts available for AKM or VZ58 in my opinion: great design, finish, function, and weight.
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Thanks very much for those suggestions RSR. The M92 is in it original configuration at mom,
(http://i67.tinypic.com/8vx7h0.png)
but I managed to get hold of one of those stromwerk scope mount little rail that goes on the back sight. It should be fitted by a local gun-smith by now. I would have favoured a "Eastern" red dot but I have a spare nice little "Western" Vortex Sparc that I intend to use with it.
What I really wanted was a Manticore NightBrake muzzle compensator made for the yugo thread . But due to ITAR, getting hold of US parts is impossible. I recently have found a Bulgy 4 pieces flash-hider but with a thread adaptator meaning the entire thing weights a ton but I'll try it at my next july trip.
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RSR, thanks for the suggestions and input on shotguns.
Froggy, great to see how you guys are doing it despite the limitations imposed on you.
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RSR, thanks for the suggestions and input on shotguns.
Froggy, great to see how you guys are doing it despite the limitations imposed on you.
I suggest if your ever in the market for a sporting shotgun, IMO you should consider semi-autos exclusively. Pumps are great for defense and tactical applications -- they are dependable -- but IMHO, not the choice for most 3Gun competitive sports. Some folks still use them in competition and its frustrating just to watch -- been there, done that.
Unless your financially able to purchase a Benelli, stay away from inertia driven shotguns. Stoegers are a pain to get running right and problem free -- I can speak to this first hand and I have miles to go with mine until it works flawlessly. Stick with gas/piston driven systems.
Some good options:
Remington 870 - don't know about this, but sometimes recommended
Mossberg 930 (or upgraded 930 JM Pro) - Guys I know run these, but they have somewhat of a bad rap in some 3gun circle as jammers. Did see one with feed issue last weekend, corrected with more lubrication.
http://www.3gunshotgun.com/3-gun-shotgun-continued.html
https://youtu.be/Rd-Pq3erg_E
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Re: M92
Boosters put out a ton of flash and blast and do nothing for recoil:
https://youtu.be/C4wSE8mIU54
4 pieces have about same recoil impulse as the boosters, but put out nearly no visible flash, blast sounds reduced and also sounds like it travels more forward (similar to a linear comp) than the boosters which sound more similar to a bare muzzle...
Manticore Nightbrake does look to give more muzzle control, and does work to preserve sight picture, but also appears to work as if you're looking down a light tunnel/hallway with your sights in the middle when you use the pap (out of a 16" barrel, much less blast from reviews I've seen):
https://youtu.be/qMumsBd13QI
And yes, 4 piece brake is heavy, and that's part of the reason why I think I might as well move up to the 12" barreled VZ58 and go w/ a lighter flash hider over the 4 piece brake...
Re the stormwerkz, they look like a decent option, but I'm planning to go w/ the midwest industries handguard w/ the aimpoint upper that will allow irons to cowitness (bottom 1/3rd). With the red dot further forward, it gives a better field of vision and keeps more in line w/ how I have other red dots on other weapons. YMMV.
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RE shotguns -- CP is right about semi auto if serious about competition. Semi auto shotguns also help to reduce felt recoil over pumps or double barreled or single shots as well...
Shotguns are hard weapons to run reliably in most configurations... All take awhile to reload. With pumps, short stroking is common when folks are under stress. Semi-autos traditionally are less than reliable, especially if you want it to shoot an assortment of ammo, and double barrels and single shots really aren't ideal for serious use. And I say this despite a thing for double barreled sporting shotguns that I've purposely been denying simply b/c I can't justify on price + utility...
Semi autos do seem to be improving reliability though overall as the 3 gun market does seem to be pushing some innovation on reliability. Before you had just high end skeet competition guns tuned for reliability w/ a particular load, and then you had the field guns that required testing of every load to ensure function before hitting the field -- which most hunters don't do. They grab a box of whatever at their local ammo store on the way to the field...
Point being, all shotguns pose challenges -- the benefits of pumps vs semi-autos is that they're often things that can be correct through training (including dry firing and safe manipulation in the home) vs semi autos that often involve gunsmithing and specific ammo requirements, etc.
But to be clear, I don't consider myself a subject matter, including amateur, expert on any matter involving shotguns... So definitely listen to others here. Was just passing along some deals.
One thing I forgot to mention in earlier emails was that you'll often see sporter and home defense packages with shotguns -- so 2 barrels and one receiver. If looking to minimize cost and cover multiple shotgun basics, that might be something to consider.
And just fyi: On gas guns, there have been a lot of good deals lately on the Weatherby 459 semi-autos in both 12 and 20 gauge. I know nothing about them, but I'm opposed, on principle, to shotguns with stocks having pistol grips... Only without a stock do pistol grips make sense on shotguns in my personal opinion. I did look, and there don't appear to be any direct swaps for this particular model w/o diy modification of other options...
A search on slickguns will probably point you in the right direction if looking there. I want to say pricing around $400 for these if I recall correctly. Excepting my pistol grip exception, reviews on them are seemed pretty positive.
My interest was in 20 gauge semi-auto to see if the mrs preferred that to a 22lr gun for dealing with varmint issues when husband not home... .410 is too limiting IMO. I'm building her her own 10/22 instead, but haven't finalized optic yet.
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CP and RSR - lots of good info to think about regarding shotguns, thanks. I definitely would want a semi-auto.
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Let a shooter try my Saiga12 with a drum on Saturday at the range. He was shooting a new Remington pump he had just picked up.
After he ran through 10 rounds with the Saiga12 he wanted to know where to get one. Unfortunately, the POTUS signed an EO (executive order) banning import of anything from the Kalashnikov concern, which includes Russian Saigas. Fortunately, the Russian VEPR12 (MOLOT factory) is not included under the ban and IMO is a bit more feature rich then the Saiga12 Mag well adapter, BHO last round, etc.), but no VEPR drums as of yet.
I would probably go with the VEPR over the Saiga if I had the choice today.
Saw two VEPR12s with 8 or 12 rnd stick mags during last weeks 3Gun. .. and one Saiga12 (mine).
This was one of the fellows at the 3Gun with the VEPR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYtnBRKZuOI