The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Clint007 on July 30, 2016, 09:15:45 PM
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Ran across an ad for the Redding titanium carbide die set, and can't seem to find a consistent advantage over standard carbide dies when I did some searching online.
Is this another example of paying more for some fanciful non-advantage?
C
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If the carbide insert is smooth enough, you usually do not need to lube the brass cases for pistol calibers.
Some still have trouble with New brass or brass that has been tumbled in Stainless Steel pins with no lube and carbide dies.
I have not had any issues at all & never felt a need to lube a pistol case when using carbide dies. I also wet tumble my brass in SS pins. No problem sizing with carbide dies.
Neck expansion is sometimes a problem too. And may be another reason for using lube on SS tumbled or New brass.
Again I have had no issues bad enough to warrant lubing pistol brass on expansion. My expanders are well used & shiny smooth.
But I do not think the expanders are made of carbide from any brand, for pistol.
ALL my sizing dies in pistol calibers are Carbide Lee dies.
Should also point out that the only Carbide in a carbide die set is an insert in the sizer die for the outer wall of the case. Just so you are not thinking that the whole set of dies are entirely carbide.
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Clint,
RCBS, Lyman, and Lee produce tungsten carbide sizing rings. Redding uses titanium carbide, which is both smoother and more wear-resistant than regular tungsten carbide. Hornady uses tungsten carbide with a titanium nitride coating to the same effect as Redding's titanium carbide.
How much more are you getting for your money? I would suggest that Redding and Hornady are better machined dies, in general, with Redding on top. Don't buy it because you think it's worth paying extra for titanium carbide. Buy it because it's a more precisely made die all the way around. Or buy a Hornady New Dimension series. If I'm buying a single die, I'll save the money by buying Hornady New Dimension. But when I'm buying a set, Hornady doesn't produce their New Dimension sets with the die selection I want, so I buy Redding Pro Series sets and add an expander. Do not buy Hornady "American Series" dies. That's their entry level, intended to compete with Lee.
Are you looking to buy a whole set? Or do you need just one die? Need to replace a die? Did you ruin a sizing die?
And for the record, you should still lube with carbide dies.
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Actually I'm good for now, thanks. I was just curious re the value of the titanium. I use the Dillon resizing die now...I was thinking of buying a Lee carbide die mainly to ensure I sized it down well for uniform neck tension. But I can't say I've experienced any problems with the Dillon die that need fixing....so I should probably not spend money unnecessarily.
That said, how many rounds does a Dillon resizing die last? I clean them regularly, but how would I know it's time....?
But if I used the Redding titanium resizing die....would it tend to stick less on the resizing step? I do use lube for this with the Dillon die, but it still feels a bit stiff at this stage....if the titanium is smoother....and if the Redding confidently sizes down enough like the Lee....when I do upgrade I might consider buying that one...
Thx
C
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Oh, one more question: is there any issue with removing the depriming pin from any resizing die? So the die only resizes? That won't affect the resizing process I assume?
At some point I will deprime and resize at different stations.....
C
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Oh, one more question: is there any issue with removing the depriming pin from any resizing die? So the die only resizes? That won't affect the resizing process I assume?
At some point I will deprime and resize at different stations.....
C
No problem at all with a straight/taper wall pistol case. I removed my 45 ACP decapping pin for resizing some primed brass I purchased.
Bottleneck rifle cartridges use an expander plug with the decapping pin and you need to make sure you don't remove that (unless you intentionally don't want it).
Cheers,
Toby
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You're not going to wear out a tungsten, or titanium carbide die in your lifetime, and probably not in your kid's lifetime, if you have any kids. If a carbide die starts scratching, it's not from being worn out, it will be from brass galling and sticking to the carbide, which can be removed with polishing.
If your current carbide dies are doing the job for you, there's no need to buy another sizing die. If you're worried about neck tension, then the first place to look is the expander. Most sizing dies size the case down enough, but expanders vary in size and they're usually the culprit.
The only carbide die I have that doesn't size a case down enough happens to be a Lee .45 acp carbide die that leaves the case at .470" in diameter. This works for .45 Colt brass, but is too large for .45 acp brass. In most calibers, especially handgun calibers, I have multiple sets of dies, so one die out of spec really doesn't affect my loading.
If it works, don't "fix" it.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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But if I used the Redding titanium resizing die....would it tend to stick less on the resizing step? I do use lube for this with the Dillon die, but it still feels a bit stiff at this stage....
I think if you'll check, your brass is sticking at the Expander stage. Take a tiny amount of case lube and apply it to the "powder die" on the bottom of your powder measure. That's the only place brass "sticks" with me.
;)
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Interesting stuff.
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I have a sizing die with a case fully
glued galled in place. Completely stuck. It was sticking a bit leading up to that point, but I did not identify the source of the apparent sticking, until the press wouldn't let me lower the ram, then with some extra effort, the die pulled the case clear of the shell plate. I failed afterward to remove the case from the die. I used the trick with the screw, but failed. It just ate the center out of the case head.
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I have a sizing die with a case fully glued galled in place. Completely stuck.
ID -
Send me the die.
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I have a sizing die with a case fully glued galled in place. Completely stuck.
ID -
Send me the die.
...or send it to me.
I'll put it on top of my chrono and kill two birds with one stone...so to speak. ;D
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I think if you'll check, your brass is sticking at the Expander stage. Take a tiny amount of case lube and apply it to the "powder die" on the bottom of your powder measure.
Or use the natural dry lube that firing a round leaves in the case...
[Mods fixed the quote]
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WC (tungsten carbide), I believe is common for all dies manufacturers except Hornady and Redding. Hornady uses TiN (Titanium Nitride, just like the gold drill bits).
Redding is TiC (Titanium Carbide).
The Titanium ceramics are supposed to be smoother and make sizing easier.
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Wobbly: The case sticks a bit at resizing then again at the powder drop stage when flaring the mouth.
But, I should ask this next then....some bullets need a bit more help at not toppling, so I did a little experiment. I deprime and resize , then use the Lee universal expander die with a NOE .358 plug (kinda like an M die) at a separate station on this first pass. This gives a bit more concentric expansion with a slight bell..... Then I tumble the lube off, and load. This really helps those long 147 gr bullets not toppling as I crank the handle, compared to the MBF funnel or Dillon funnel. But...what's the down side? Am I screwing up neck tension...will this screw the accuracy? I haven't compared em yet...
I have noticed that with the plated bullets, I need very little bell even using the Mr. Bullet feeder. But with long powder coated lead....totally helps with what I described above.
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? It sounds to me like your case lube isn't effective, at least by using your current application method. I like the pastes and thick syrup types (Imperial, RCBS, lanolin) because it gives me the opportunity to apply a dab to the Dillon "powder funnel" every 50 cases or so. Cases sticking to the Dillon expander nose is a well documented issue, and Dillon has worked with all sorts of shapes, platings, and polishes over the years.
? Neck tension is important for several reasons and should not be overlooked. You really do need the expander to be 0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter. Luckily 38/357 is 1 or 2 thou larger than 9mm, so you have a ready selection of stock powder funnel sizes to choose from.
But, I should ask this next then....some bullets need a bit more help at not toppling...
? If by toppling you mean balancing on the case mouth moments before seating, then that is a belling issue, which is unrelated to case neck expansion. It just so happens that the Dillon powder funnel completes 2 jobs: expansion AND belling. Try setting the powder die 1/10 turn deeper into the tool head. This will slightly increase the belling, and thereby help with the balancing act.
;)
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Wobbly +1.
More rounds have had accuracy destroyed in an attempt to NOT over-work the case mouth than cases have been saved.
Bell enough to get the job done and you'll never notice any difference in case life.
If you want, get a Lyman M-die, with an insert made to the dimensions YOU NEED.
Case ID 0.001-0.002" under bullet diameter and the bullet seating step 0.001-0.002" over bullet diameter so the bullet actually enters the case enough to hold no matter what.
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thanks for this info.
so I'm clear on what your terms mean, I THINK I know what belling is - that curved flare at the very top of the case mouth, larger than the bullet diameter, but just the top few mm, to prevent shaving the bullet and so it sits atop the case properly on indexing....(right?).
What's your definition of expansion, then, compared to belling? Or link me to an established authoritative website? I always thought it overlapped with belling in that the goals overlap - allow the bullet to self-position atop the case - but it was intended to be deeper into the case to accommodate most of the length of the bullet, also, and to avoid damage to the case or bullet if the case was much smaller than the bullet OD.
thanks!
C
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Yes you are correct, the belling/flare is the case mouth expansion die/step that allows bullet seating without shaving the diameter down. The terms are treated interchangeably when discussing pistol reloading. But there is a situation for more than just case mouth expansion during pistol reloading.
When reloading lead pistol bullets you may find that the resized case will actually swage down the pistol bullet during the seating operation. This is less than ideal as you need the lead bullet to be .001 larger than the bore of the barrel (to prevent leading). Some have found that using a different/larger expander die insert (not to be confused with rifle expander plug) will reduce the neck tension (open up the case mouth and "neck" diameter slightly) post resizing and prevent swaging the lead bullets during seating. Lyman makes a "M" die that is designed for pistol lead case mouth and neck expansion. Using Lee dies, in 9mm, I use a Lee 38S&W powder through expander insert to open up the 9mm case a little so the .357 bullets don't get swaged during seating. It works well.
If you decide to load lead pistol bullets, you should check to see if the cases are swaging the bullets during seating. This can be done easily by measuring the diameter of some bullets prior to loading then pulling them down post seating and checking the diameter. If they are smaller than prior to loading and/or the diameter of the bullet is less than .001 larger than your barrel (you need to slug your barrel) you may want to consider modifying the expansion die in your process.
In a bottleneck rifle resizing die there is an expander plug that irons out the inner case neck during the resizing operation. Typically there isn't a need for an case mouth expansion die for rifle reloading since most rifle bullets have a boat tail or chamfer on the base of the bullet to ease seating into the case. Some folks will fine tune the neck tension by altering the expansion plug dimensions. Others remove the expansion plug completely and rely on bushing diameter to fine tune neck tension (when using a bushing die system like the Redding Type S).
Too much info but hey it's free!
Cheers,
Toby
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This is Dillon's powder funnel:
(https://www.dillonprecision.com/uimages/rifle_and_pistol_funnels.jpg)
Looks like a Lyman M-Die/Redding expander to me in terms of function. I dug out mine, which I have never used, and that second straight-walled stage is .353. So this basically a Lyman M-Die type expander, correct?
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It's not quite a Lyman M die. The M die actually has another step turned onto it at the top of the expander, which provides a short section the same diameter, or just slightly larger, than the bullet. The Dillon die just flares, without the step.
The Lyman die can be adjusted to also flare, but in most cases it's not required, as the step provides the necessary "place" for the bullet to sit and start seating straight. I really prefer the Lyman M die for most of my handgun calibers, and I've got quite a few of them. Just last night I was using one on 9x23 Winchester brass that I was prepping for some load testing. The bullet sits perfectly aligned inside that little step and has a straight shot into the case when seated. The taper crimp die removes the step and you don't even see it in the loaded round.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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Got it. Here's my 9mm Redding Expander plug:
(http://66.media.tumblr.com/9926168a1da21332ee9e3609ea94a874/tumblr_obbbi7YQsE1st1xojo1_1280.jpg)
It does have that final step just before the flare/bell like the Lyman, which I see now is absent in the Dillon.
When I had a 9mm Lyman M-Die, bullets would kind of "click" into place in the case when I would seat them just before raising the ram. The case mouth actually held them snugly. With the Redding, they stand pretty well upright and travel the full ram-stroke hands free, but they don't click into place. Not sure if this just a matter of adjustment, or a difference in how the plug is milled, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't amount to much. Other than that, the two work the same. The only reason I went with Redding when I had to replace the Lyman was that Redding uses harder metal for the set screws, and I'm clumsy with a hex wrench. ;) The M-Die itself worked great.
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I used the powder drop that came with the 650 very little before installing the Hornady drop. I am starting to get curious about it. Might have to go back Blue on the powder drop for a while, maybe play with the N320 since the Hornady drop doesn't like it, and maybe play around with that Dillon powder funnel/expander.
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I THINK I know what belling is - that curved flare at the very top of the case mouth, larger than the bullet diameter, but just the top few mm, to prevent shaving the bullet and so it sits atop the case properly on indexing....(right?).
What's your definition of expansion, then, compared to belling?
Yes you are correct, the belling/flare is the case mouth expansion die/step that allows bullet seating without shaving the diameter down. The terms are treated interchangeably when discussing pistol reloading.
Maybe understanding the "why" would explain more.
? All brass varies in wall thickness. No 2 brands use the same dimensions. That's fairly well known and understood.
Question: So how can the die maker re-size the exterior of the case, so that you get perfect case neck tension ? That's is to say, how can one squeeze on the outside of the case to get the inside of the case to be a perfect size... given that all brass varies in wall thickness ?
Answer: You can't !!
Solution: The dies squeeze (re-size) the outside of the case smaller than what you need, then go back and open the inside with a second operation. That secondary operation is called "expansion", and is done by pushing a perfectly sized plug into the case mouth interior to open it up to the desired inside dimensions.
Try sending one piece of brass though your die set and make measurements after each die, you'll see what I'm talking about. In some instances, the dimensional changes can't be seen with the naked eye. Remember that the dies are also accounting for "brass spring-back" along with varying wall thicknesses. The ability to do this accurately on thousands of die sets is really a miracle of modern manufacturing. Truly mind-boggling in scope. :o
Hope this helps. ;)
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very good info, thank you.
So...by extension, then, if one uses a variety of bullets (0.356 FMJ and up to 0.358 coated swaged, depending on the pistol to be used), then a dedicated expansion plug (powder funnel) for each scenario would seem to be indicated. I shoot a variety of bullet types, and found that in some cases 0.358 (coated cast) worked better in a barrel that was larger than average for the caliber. It slugged to just a tad over 0.356, actually, but all my CZs are just under 0.356. Usually tho I'm shooting 0.357 lead (coated) or 0.356 plated or FMJ/JHP. I have several different M-type die plugs for my lee universal expander die, including 0.357 and 0.358, so that works out.
Thanks for the advice and insight. I shoot a lot but don't consider myself an 'expert' reloader. Just don't have the time to give myself the PhD in reloading that many of you obviously have. So far I've never had a mishap...and hope to keep it that way. I'm just starting in on reloading 223 and 300 BLK and I'm sure I'll be back for some more help.
Cheers
C