The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: baldrage on September 19, 2016, 09:22:57 AM
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I started a training/range log over in the ?Day at the Range? category that I have found to be very useful for me, both as a means of record keeping and collecting my thoughts, holding myself publicly accountable, and soliciting some feedback. Thought I would start a similar log here on the Ammo board as a place to consolidate my newbie questions and record my efforts, rather than peppering the forum with dozens of different threads.
Thanks in advance to all who read this log and especially to anyone who provides a comment. Thanks as well to everyone who has contributed to this forum, as I have spent the last several months poring over the questions, answers, comments, links, and humor you have provided in the past. It was a lot to digest, but in total, represents an awesome collection of knowledge and wisdom, far superior to any reloading manual I have seen. So special thanks to Wobbly, Armoredman, 1SOW, ReloaderFred, Mr. Sasquatch, painter Cesar and other experienced reloaders who took the time to share technical tips and tribal knowledge, as well as all of the many other newbs who came before me and asked valuable questions. Any success I have in this endeavor will be due to all of you, but any mis-steps will be solely my own fault!
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Call me a ?(p)re-loader!? I have purchased all of the essential equipment and components, and will produce my first reloads in the next couple of weeks. I have lurked on this forum for months ? I read through all of the stickies multiple times, along with all 130+ pages of threads in this forum (twice). I have read ?ABCs of reloading?, Lyman?s #49 manual, and watched countless hours of you-tube videos.
Background: I have a 9 mm SP01 Shadow Custom with Kadet Kit. My shooting centers on weekly range practice and monthly IDPA and bowling pin matches. I currently shoot 400 ? 500 rounds 9mm/month, along with 500-600 rounds of .22 (I hit the range three times a month on average, and typically shoot 100-150 9mm and 100-150 .22 on each trip). I work full-time, have two small, very active children, and a wife who is active in volunteer work with girl scouts, PTA, etc. so my free time is at a premium! I don?t consider myself especially mechanically adept, but I do assemble my own PCs, so I am capable of researching components, following complex directions, and trouble-shooting issues. In the computer area, I am a ?bang for the buck? kind of guy who likes to find the sweet spot in equipment that delivers 80% of the performance of the latest-and-greatest gear at 50% of the cost. When it comes to vehicles, I prefer boring reliability and utility over tinkering and style ? I drive a 10 year-old Chevy Equinox.
Intent: My primary interest in reloading is: 1.a) reducing cost (yes, I know that reloaders don?t save money, they ?just shoot more for the same amount? but to me that equates to the same thing); and 1.b) assuring a steady supply of ammo at a reasonable cost during cycles of gun control panic. The only firearms I own are the SP01 Shadow, and a Browning 12 gauge semi-auto that I use for occasional skeet shooting. Since I am not worried about 12 gauge ammo drying up in a gun control panic (and I have a friend that reloads shotgun ammo if it were to happen) I am only interested in reloading 9 mm for the foreseeable future. A secondary interest would be as an extension of the shooting hobby to tweak/experiment with new loads, but that is not the primary driver for me at this time.
I am currently shooting 124 gr RN Blazer Brass for $.22/round, and based on the numbers I have seen here and run myself, I would able to shoot reloads for < 2/3 of that cost, and it would be much easier and more economical to stockpile a sufficient amount (say, a year?s supply) of powders/primers/bullets to see me through the next panic than stockpiling factory ammo. I am not a ?hoarder,? and I hate to give in to panic buying, but there?s also no point in taking up reloading if I am going to be unable to buy components (or if cost of components escalates drastically) over the next year.
Equipment
Having read hundreds of threads on this and other forums, I initially decided that the Lee Classic Turret Press would be the best place to start, since it seemed like good compromise between the simplicity of a single-stage press, and the volume of a progressive. However, after reflecting on it over the last three months, I decided to go with a Dillon Square Deal B, and got a lightly-used SDB on Ebay that was set up for .38 super (only requires two additional dies to convert to 9 mm).
I understand the merits of starting with a single-stage press to keep things as simple as possible, but couldn?t justify spending the money on a single-stage press and set of dies just to practice with it for a few months, then have to go out and purchase another turret or progressive press a few months later.
My plan is to work up a suitable load in small numbers, one round at a time, using the Square Deal as a turret press. After a suitable load has been tested and proven safe in my pistol, I will continue to load the first few hundred rounds thereafter one at a time in turret-style operation, and only then, after I am comfortable, crank up the production with progressive operations and build a ready stockpile of reloaded ammo. I have read and seen videos that the Square Deal can produce up to 200 rounds/hour moving at a methodical, careful pace. I know that initially I will be much slower than that, since I?ll be doubtlessly triple-and quadruple-checking everything, but even if I?m only operating at ~100 rounds/hour, then a single one hour reloading session a week would meet my current shooting needs.
Here is the complete run-down on my current equipment and components:
- Nice big, sturdy work-bench in my basement. I already have a section set up for gun cleaning/maintenance, with one end of the bench cleared off to make room for the press and associated supplies. I also have a wall cabinet I am using to store primers, powders, bullets, and cleaning supplies (I added a latch and padlock to keep the HAZMAT out of the reach of the kids and out of sight of any contractors or visitors that come through the basement).
- Books/manuals ? I have ABCs of reloading and Lyman #49 (planning on picking up Lee?s ?Modern Reloading? when I can find a good deal on a used copy). I have also printed off load data from Hodgdon and Winchester websites.
- Containers ? I have been saving plastic bins from Cascade dish-washer pellets. Already using these to sort and store my dirty brass, and they work well.
- Accessories for press ? I?m initially going to try to Velcro tape a small flashlight or LED light, or see how my old adjustable desk lamp works, before buying a special light for the press. I?m going to wait on a powder measure knob and strong mount until I have tried out the press a few times.
- Notebooks/journal/spreadsheet ? have plenty on-hand.
- Tumbler - I just got the rebadged Berry?s Model 400 vibratory tumbler on sale from Cabella?s. Came with walnut-corn media and brass polish. I also have a bottle of NuFinish auto wax from Walmart.
- Other equipment. I have an RCBS primer flip tray, Franklin Arsenal bullet puller, RCBS 5-0-5 balance scale ($50) and a cheap set of checkweights ($5). UPDATE: forgot to mention I also have a pair of digital calipers!
- Brass ? I have been saving my brass for several months, and still have ~1000 rounds of unfired Blazer Brass that I will shoot over the next couple of months, so by the time I am ready to actually start reloading, I will have about 2000 9 mm Blazer Brass cartridges, plus another ~1500 in brass I collected at IDPA matches (mostly Winchester and Federal). I have been saving my empty ammo boxes and trays, so I will have somewhere to put reloaded rounds, as well.
? Primers and powder - I?ve been buying a pound of powder and 1,000 primers at a time locally for the last several months, as I am convinced we will have another major run on ammo and reloading components around November. Given the luxury of time I would rather have bought in smaller quantities to begin with, but there?s also no point in taking up reloading in the next few months if I am going to be unable to buy components (or if cost of components escalates drastically) over the next year. Based on content in this forum, I understand that Federal SPP and Win 231/HP-38 (meters well and stays consistent with most powder measures) are good choices for beginners, and should work well in my Shadow Custom. Therefore, I have stockpiled 2K Federal SPP, 4K Win SPP, 1K CCI SPP, along with 4 lbs Win 231 and 4 lbs HP-38, so I figure I already have at least a year?s supply of primers and powder in my possession. I?ve been looking for WSF, since it is highly recommended by Wobbly as ?the poor man?s VV N320,? but have not seen any for sale locally.
? Bullets - I?ve bought sample packs of Rocky Mountain Reloading 124 gr FMJ RN (250 bullets), Blue Bullets 125 gr LRN (250), and Extreme Bullets 124 gr plated RN (500). Will test these out for a few weeks and see which ones I prefer I for ease of reloading and function in my gun, before investing in a bulk buy.
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Wow! that a nice very comprehensive game plan!
You have really done your home work well. I would just suggest after you get a feel of reloading for your next bulk bullets purchase take a long look at the Precision Delta FMJ bullets at 2K quantity. Great quality and price, free shipping. Their JHP bullets even better for $1 per 1K price difference.
8lb of HP-38/W231 will last you for well over 10K-12K of 9mm rounds. No need to desperately search for WSF. Get confident and comfortable with the process first.
On your RCBS 5-0-5 balance scale add some weight to the hollow bottom of it or fasten it with the strap to the wood board for more stability. Check the zero balance before each session or after your have moved the scale on the desk. 1mm off the zero point is about 0.1gr weight difference.
You haven't mentioned set of calipers. You need a good caliper for verifying the OAL and crimp dimensions. I have both digital and dial calipers and much prefer dial type, but either will work.
Good luck with the new adventure.
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I agree with Boris except for the dial caliper for pistol. The dial caliper is 100% reliable, but a Harbor Freight digital caliper is extremely reliable and more than accurate enough for 9mm pistol reloading. Rounding to the nearest five tenthoundths with +/- one thousandth accuracy is more than good enough.
On sale often at about $10-$11, it can be replaced cheaply if it fails... Mine haven't. I will send one to check the other.
+1 on the 124 Precision Delta JHP bullet at under 9 cents each shipped.
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Wow, I am impressed (but not surprised) you guys read through all that verbiage and keyed right into the fact that I left out mention of a caliper. :D
Rest assured, I do own a caliper! Will update post above ASAP!
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I agree with Boris except for the dial caliper for pistol. The dial caliper is 100% reliable, but a Harbor Freight digital caliper is extremely reliable and more than accurate enough for 9mm pistol reloading. Rounding to the nearest five tenthoundths with +/- one thousandth accuracy is more than good enough.
On sale often at about $10-$11, it can be replaced cheaply if it fails... Mine haven't. I will send one to check the other.
+1 on the 124 Precision Delta JHP bullet at under 9 cents each shipped.
I replaced mine HF digital calipers 3 times. Great lifetime warranty, but great things end up here. Zero doesn't stay, and calibration on precision calibration blocks show consistent .03 off at 1" on the best one. Previous HF calipers shown 0.05-0.07" off when they worked. For my match load with JHP OAL measured at 1.069-1.070" its not acceptable difference and recalculating the correction all the time is not worth it for me. Battery is dead when you need it the most and its picky about what battery brand to use even with the same type. I am sure that expensive digital calipers sold by famous brands are much better, but i can find better use for $100+
My dial calipers are dead on on calibration and never need a battery. I trust it and confidence worth a lot for me.
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Also I have forgot to mention that extra primer pickup tubes will prove a good investment. Dillon tubes with color tips are the easiest to use and not prohibitively expensive. Having few extra tubes pre-loaded with primers later on speed up the loading process. Not critical for getting started, just keep your eyes open for sale while shopping for other supplies.
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Wow! that a nice very comprehensive game plan!
On your RCBS 5-0-5 balance scale add some weight to the hollow bottom of it or fasten it with the strap to the wood board for more stability. Check the zero balance before each session or after your have moved the scale on the desk. 1mm off the zero point is about 0.1gr weight diffefence.
Great tip on adding some weight to the scale. Thanks!
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Now that I've done all the research, purchased the equipment, and bought the components, next step is to get the SDB mounted to my bench, then cleaned and lubed.
Since I am new to reloading and likely to change my preferences as I gain experience, I thought it best not to mount the SDB directly to my bench, in case I ended up deciding to change the placement. Instead, following the example of several other reloaders, I mounted the SDB to a spare piece of wood, and attached that to the bench with several C-clamps. Seems very sturdy, but the proof will be in the pudding.
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8547/29765314346_15e9a9a2b6_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Mmg1WW)IMG_4640 (https://flic.kr/p/Mmg1WW) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8418/29718301181_6878873f49_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Mh74z8)IMG_4639 (https://flic.kr/p/Mh74z8) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
I do have to say this approach has already paid off in terms of maintenance, as I had to remove the whole press a couple of times to get at some of the components on the back side for cleaning and lubing - glad I did not bolt the SDB directly to the bench.
As for cleaning/lubing, I watched these two videos by Dillon multiple times and spent about two hours yesterday cleaning and lubing the press:
Cleaning the SDB -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hs0cjmQ5v4
Lubricating the SDB -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwckkpPONrs
Time consuming, but time well spent, as I have a much better understanding of how the press fits together and operates now, and the handle pull is much smoother with some fresh grease in place.
For other prospective SDB buyers, I also highly recommend this video by the Power Factor Show, as it does a great job of demonstrating the SDB's operation, including a caliber change, and lots of small tips on maintenance/operation and changing setting son the press -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Tcos24hEM. (note: disregard his example on weighing powder and how to calculate a starting load).
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baldrage -
First of all...
Welcome Aboard !!
I was rolling on the floor laughing. You really DID read all the stickies, didn't you !! You may be the first person in the entire history of the Forum to do so. Even I haven't read all the stickies !!
Actually, I take that action as a compliment. We've all worked very hard to create an oasis of reloading knowledge right in the middle of the least likely place... the internet. ;D
But I'm giving you fair warning. If you keep this up, someone in authority will make you a Moderator! O0
All the best.
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Rather than putting your loaded rounds into empty ammo boxes buy a couple plastic 30 cal ammo boxes to store them loose in. You can usually find them for under $5, you can fit 1000+ rounds in each of them and they have a rubber gasket around the lid that will keep moisture out. Throw a few of the little desiccant packs in each one and you're all set for long term storage.
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I replaced mine HF digital calipers 3 times. Great lifetime warranty, but great things end up here. Zero doesn't stay, and calibration on precision calibration blocks show consistent .03 off at 1" on the best one. Previous HF calipers shown 0.05-0.07" off when they worked. For my match load with JHP OAL measured at 1.069-1.070" its not acceptable difference and recalculating the correction all the time is not worth it for me. Battery is dead when you need it the most and its picky about what battery brand to use even with the same type. I am sure that expensive digital calipers sold by famous brands are much better, but i can find better use for $100+
My dial calipers are dead on on calibration and never need a battery. I trust it and confidence worth a lot for me.
Boris -
Not widely known, but you must keep your calipers away from all magnets. Magnets can erase the encoder strip that allow the calipers to work (measure) in the first place.
Also, on the HB calipers... sometimes the storage case can depress the ON button. Try relieving the foam lining on the hinged cover in the area that closes down on top of the ON button.
Hope this helps !
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Thank you Wobbly for suggestion. No magnets around electronics of any kind and button is not pressed during the storage. Battery life is measured in months, but they quit in the most unappropriated moments in full compliance with Murphy's law. Some of them actually lasted for a few years before start flashing and throw random numbers. Inaccuracy is right from the store due less than precision grinding of surfaces and generally low instrument quality. HF store is a few block away and they replaced them quickly, but I don't trust them and prefer to use mechanical dial one.
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baldrage, Something I just recently purchased and was well worth it - an anti fatigue floor mat from Costco. Sure is nice to stand on that instead of a thin carpet when doing a bunch of reloading. Some folks sit in front of their presses, I find that for me, that makes it difficult to do a consistent motion on the load handle. Might be because I have the Hornady LNL and they have a different press - who knows.
About where in northern VA are you?
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You really DID read all the stickies, didn't you !! You may be the first person in the entire history of the Forum to do so. Even I haven't read all the stickies !!
I not only read the stickies, I read virtually all of the threads on ALL 138 pages of this sub-forum, going all the way back to before mr. sasquatch started reloading!
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baldrage, Something I just recently purchased and was well worth it - an anti fatigue floor mat from Costco. Sure is nice to stand on that instead of a thin carpet when doing a bunch of reloading. Some folks sit in front of their presses, I find that for me, that makes it difficult to do a consistent motion on the load handle. Might be because I have the Hornady LNL and they have a different press - who knows.
About where in northern VA are you?
Good tip, thanks, I'll look into that, as my floor is actually bare cement. I was planning on sitting on a high stool, so not as to worriy about fatigue, but I have found that tiny components like primers bounce off the floor and roll like crazy when dropped, making it very difficult to find them. Was thinking about maybe putting a plastic tarp down under the press when I am reloading to make finding dropped components easier to find.
I am in bucolic Burke, VA.
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I not only read the stickies, I read virtually all of the threads on ALL 138 pages of this sub-forum, going all the way back to before Mr. Sasquatch started reloading!
That is a huge amount of reading and research !!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mbRxkh4vOMEz1AQ0_QgodOQZ27m6md81YLafHgm8Fir5IbPyIqqUGhC2HOHqIWdyj1vzF8KsBvwlTo9YNXwp4JtGTxdqx7Qv7CschtxXFgEP7rPkqSy55EDPgGKQ6rj4TCvc8-ADnuNVKvQZYuf9fNmaDTN2TybxGDKOSZmtnBEY5yTTyF5cilEXjYDXx8ww54sksLN8fnO8hm1sQtj4zzfJVsiCciH5LyNSpk6lM5OXObmhgKLv3vtt8akkk3nIG54ulrhJ5EmNauWiSXEPSDDNdo1XuadXxJYGB9a0hIyfBgK6p5kpnrvnpOWkwi8w0qCSnIXaQPWzNrf1PKmyB-taDfBDDkZuwWoMiokvpuvkxi5iraGVYSbJMSPT5qQMI5qFN3Xzfp_XNqVw1BgwD8JMvddG_m66zfTbp4KwhdK0x9hYOwTvN3f-TgNIZKPv0-qp51Y0LXAEx-Z9QJdl_ZkWAc2cpLg44BMXQN_yvpYjA3eJdE8cZzEFP9RAso4gqWh2lhLwbjKLGh4J8qUkj6DbGUeQESxNHkjbzsqTpMsvfHYisPKotrQxk5POfs-EZHQhTzAjBbShLanK6pFcugtNJXiEYNpwNhJvcM5AxJxYS3kY=w350-h600-no)
BTW, Mr. Sasquatch was the recipient of a give-away press, way back before the Obama crunch. That's how we met, and that's how he got into reloading. Really nice guy. I miss his posts here.
;)
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I liked SAS too. Good guy. 8)
I haven't had battery or deviation problems with the full-featured HF digital calipers. I have a much older one with a bigger readout from Frankford Arsenal that still agrees with the better HF model within .001".
They both measure wire size drill bits accurately....enough. Maybe luck of the draw.
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I don't think caliper discussion should continue here and derail this thread off topic. OP already has the tool and either type of caliper will do if you trust it. The important is to have one and use it properly.
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Great thread Baldrage. You've found a great resource here. I'm a 3 yr old reloading newb myself and can't tell you how much I have learned here from some good contributors. In fact, learned something new here just today. Be sure to remember what I see repeated often, "there are no stupid questions", although I sometimes push the envelope.
Good luck to you.
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Mr. Sas and I came around here within a few weeks of each other. He's a funny guy. I, too, miss his posts here.
I've been called a colorful character before, and I mean no disrespect, but are you by any chance an engineer Mr. baldrage? ;D
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...I mean no disrespect, but are you by any chance an engineer Mr. baldrage? ;D
Hold it !
I resemble that remark. :o
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...I mean no disrespect, but are you by any chance an engineer Mr. baldrage? ;D
Hold it !
I resemble that remark. :o
I still like you Mr. W. ;D
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I've been called a colorful character before, and I mean no disrespect, but are you by any chance an engineer Mr. baldrage? ;D
Nope, not an engineer!
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So now that I have the SDB mounted, cleaned, and lubed, I have been experimenting with running an empty casing through the stations and testing out ability to prime/deprime, as suggested by the Dillon manual. I found that the priming system was not working properly. After loading a few primers into the primer magazine and working the handle, the SDB would not feed primers either up onto the bare shellplate, or into an empty casing. It seemed as if the primers would either just stay in the primer magazine, or feed down into the primer slide, but miss the primer cup that is supposed to push them back up into the shellplate/casing.
After consulting with the Dillon manual, I made some adjustments to the various set screws on the primer slide and housing, and after much trial and error (and some dumb luck), managed to get everything set to the degree that the SDB now seems to be feeding primers correctly. I got it to consistently feed primers up onto the bare shellplate and I seated a primer on an empty casing.
Next steps are to: 1) get some practice with the powder measure and RCB scale, to get some experience in weighing and measuring powder charges, and gain confidence that the SDB will consistently drop the correct powder charge; 2) set up the Cabela?s/Berry?s tumbler that arrived this week, and clean my first batch of brass.
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Just a word of advice on tumbling your brass. Charged media (NuFinish Car Wax or similar products) works much better than dry media. Faster polishing and adding layer of slick wax lubricant to the brass for smooth press operations. Make sure that when you charge your media with wax, there no clods left. I just smash them with my fingers while running tumbler without brass. If this get inside the brass, it will stay there and interfere with powder later on.
Small timer with power disconnect allows for unattended operation. I set mine on for two or four hours in the garage and go about my other business. No need to watch it. Come back (at your convenience) then its done and turned off and reload tumbler with the next batch of brass. Tumble different types of brass separate, one size at the time.
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OK, here's my first ever load of tumbled brass. Used a couple of capfuls of the cabella's case polish that came with the Cabella's/Berry's tumbler mixed in with the media. Ran it about four hours.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8376/29277254823_a55db90b0d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/LB8zRz)IMG_4647 (https://flic.kr/p/LB8zRz) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
Very purdy -- shines like pirate's gold -- and it is nice and slick, too. Do I need to bother hitting it with a squirt of One Shot case lube when I am ready to start running these through the press, or is the lubrication provided by the case polish sufficient?
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Polishing wax provides sufficient lubrication. No need for additional lube..
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Wow. That's nice looking !!
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I filled up the powder hopper with HP-38, and practiced filling an empty casing, weighing the powder charges, and adjusting the powder setting. Zeroed the scale with a checkweight before starting, and it was accurate to hundredths of a grain.
Scale and powder drop worked fine, but I did have a problem when advancing the casing from station #2, as there was a ?bump? or small hiccup after I pulled the handle when the shellplate was rotating, which would cause about half a grain (my estimate based on weighing the remaining contents of the casing) of powder to jump out of the top of the open casing before it came to rest at station #3. Not sure what is causing this ? primer slide slamming back into station perhaps? I experimented with both fast and slow pulls of the handle, thinking perhaps it was my stroke that was causing this, but different speeds did not make a difference.
Any tips on how to smooth out the rotation of the shellplate so that powder does not go flying out of the casing after it is filled?
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I have Hornady LnL AP and while new it had the same behavior. Jumps/stops on next station abruptly and shake may cause the spilled powder from the case. On LnL it fixed by tuning the RAM height and tweaking the detent balls under the shell plates. I am sure some similar tuning technique exist on the Dillon press. Search YouTube for Dillon tuning videos.
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I don't know if the SDB is anything like the 550. If it is you might try loosening the center bolt of the plate a little bit. That might help to keep your powder from spilling out when indexing.
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I don't have your press. I got the Hornaday. However, when researching presses I did read in many locations that Dillon has excellent support. Give them a call. And of course, let us know what you find out.
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I filled up the powder hopper with HP-38, and practiced filling an empty casing, weighing the powder charges, and adjusting the powder setting. Zeroed the scale with a check weight before starting....
That's the RCBS 505 scale ? What check weight ?
...and it was accurate to hundredths of a grain.
Unless you used a 5gr check weight you can't make that statement. You must use a check weight in the weight region that you intend to weigh. Since W231 is usually loaded at ~4.3gr, you'll need to be zeroing with 5gr.
4.3gr of W231 shouldn't be high enough to jump out of the cases.
;)
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I don't know if the SDB is anything like the 550. If it is you might try loosening the center bolt of the plate a little bit. That might help to keep your powder from spilling out when indexing.
Thanks, that sounds like a great suggestion. I did take out the center bolt to remove the shellplate when doing my initial cleaning, and it is certainly possible I over-tightened when putting it back on. I will give that a try before dialing Dillon!
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Wobbly sir, thank you for the feedback!
What scale ? What check weight ?
As stated in my lengthy first post, I am using an RCBS 5-0-5 beam scale, not one of those new-fangled electronic gizmo-thajingies. :D
I have a set of gram checkweights, and the smallest, 2 gram checkweight is equal to 30.8647 grains, according to the conversion calculators I see on the intrawebs. When weighing the 2 gram checkweight on my RCBS, the scale came out to just a hair above zero when set at 30.8, and just a hair below zero when set 30.9. So, I concluded that it is accurate to within a few hundredths of a grain, although perhaps it would be more technically correct to say it is accurate to a tenth of a grain.
4.3gr of W231 shouldn't be high enough to jump out of the cases.
I was using 4.0 gr as a charge just for weighing purposes and to test out dialing in the powder measure and its ability to throw consistent amounts of powder. Yes, 4.0 gr only filled the case to ~3/5 to ~2/3 full using a rough eye-ball test, so you are correct, it was not near the top of the case or spilling over. However, the "hiccup" in the rotation of the shellplate was violent enough to cause some powder to pop out of the top of the case and spill onto the shellplate.
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As stated in my lengthy first post, I am using an RCBS 5-0-5 beam scale, not one of those new-fangled electronic gizmo-thajingies. :D
I had forgotten you mentioned the scale way back in the beginning and went and checked it. Yes, my fear was you were using a cheap electronic rip-offs. It's all good.
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Still having issues with the hard indexing of the shellplating causing powder to bounce out of empty case ... tried loosening the shellplate, it seems to help for five or six cases, then right back to "snapping" into place on station #3 and bouncing powder out all over the shellplate. Removed and cleaned the shellplate, re-greased the underside of the top of the shellplate bolt, but it made no difference. I'm stuck on this problem until I have time to call Dillon, but in the meantime, I guess I can just put a fingertip over the case when advancing from station #2 to #3 to keep powder from flying everywhere ...
I decided to make up some dummy cartridges (no powder, no primers) to test out OACL and crimp measurements. I used my 124 gr RMR FMJ RN bullets, thinking FMJ bullets would be easier to start with then plated or lead bullets. Using the plunk test with the barrel of my SP01 Shadow, I determined OACL was 1.140 (cartridge "tinged" when dropped, fit flush, rotated freely, and fell out under its own weight when barrel was turned upside down). Subtracting .015 margin gives me a target OACL of 1.125... sound correct?
Using 1.125 OACL and 0.378 crimp measurements as targets, I adjusted the dies and tested until I was getting right on or very close to the desired measurements, then went ahead and made up 5 dummy rounds, operating the SDB as a turret press, one round at a time. I then measured all 5 dummy rounds, pulled the bullets, and used the same cases and bullets to make another 5 dummy rounds. Results as follows:
#1 - 1.126 OACL, .3755 crimp
#2 - 1.1275 OACL, .378 crimp
#3 - 1.129 OACL, .376 crimp
#4 - 1.1265 OACL, .376 crimp
#5 - 1.130 OACL, .378 crimp
#6 - 1.130 OACL, .376 crimp
#7 - 1.130 OACL, .3785 crimp
#8 - 1.1265 OACL, .378 crimp
#9 - 1.125 OACL, .377 crimp
#10 - 1.1285 OACL, .376 crimp
So, biggest deviation from target measurements was 0.005, average OACL was 1.1279, or ~0.003. All 10 dummy cartridges passed the plunk test. Is this "close enough," or should I adjust the dies some more?
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I personally won't except that more variation in OAL. That's just me. Someone with more knowledge than me can tell you how safe it would be. My guess is you would be fine as long as you are not up at a max load.
As far as spilling powder,if it anything like the550 there is a hex screw bellow the shell plate the has to be tightened after you adjust the center bolt.
Hope this helps.
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The OAL for all nubies varies quite a lot. It's not the machine, it's your arm. It's not until you've loaded about 2000 rounds that things start to calm down and the repeat-ability sets in. You'll get there.
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The OAL for all nubies varies quite a lot. It's not the machine, it's your arm. It's not until you've loaded about 2000 rounds that things start to calm down and the repeat-ability sets in. You'll get there.
Thanks for the feedback, Mr. Wobbly. I had seen you make similar comment to many other newbs before, that is why I was thinking dies are dialed in "close enough" for now. No point chasing .003 inches in die measurement, when operator error is resulting in >.003 variance ...
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Any tips on how to smooth out the rotation of the shellplate so that powder does not go flying out of the casing after it is filled?
I have a Dillon 650. There is a shell plate detent under station 4. It's a large, heavy polished steel ball bearing on top of a stiff spring. When the shell plate finishes indexing, and the ball-bearing "pops" into place in its cavity on the underside of the shell plate, powder jumps out of the case. Every time. It's not anywhere near the half grain you're estimating with yours, but it is a known condition with the Dillon 650. With the 650, for those wishing to address the problem, the steel ball-bearing can be replaced with a lighter plastic one.
I have never used a Square deal and have no idea if the above describes your problem. Since a Dillon 550 is manually indexed, there's no reason to have that strong of a detent, and I doubt you'd see the issue with that press, but the Square Deal's detent might be a little overbuilt for its job, like the 650's. You are describing it as a lack of smoothness or a hitch in the rotation, but I would ask that you look at it closely and/or verify -- is this definitely happening during the rotation? Or is it happening at the end of the rotation, when it comes to a stop and the detent clicks into place. If it happens to the same degree regardless of how fast the shell plate is moving, it seems unlikely the problematic action is with the shell plate itself. It seems like it has to be something else striking the shell plate or otherwise striking some part of the press and transferring energy through the shell plate into the case.
I can watch the powder in my cases jump. It's easy to see. So the first thing I would do in troubleshooting this is to watch closely, and make sure I know at exactly what point in the indexing the powder jump is occurring. If it's happening at the very end, it's the detent. If not, my next step would be to run the press with no cases and keep my finger pressed lightly against the top of the shell plate over the spot where the powder jumps, letting the shell plate slide under my fingertip. If it's something striking the shellplate or press at that exact moment, you should be able to feel it, and if you can feel it, you might be able to coordinate that with the sound of the strike. Knowing the exact moment in the index that it happens and what it sounds like should you begin hunting this thing down.
Just make sure to rule out the detent first. ;)
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You mentioned that you are buying Federal Small pistol primers, since you are successfully shooting factory ammo you don't need to pay that premium when any primer would do the same job cheaper.
Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk
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You mentioned that you are buying Federal Small pistol primers, since you are successfully shooting factory ammo you don't need to pay that premium when any primer would do the same job cheaper.
Federal primers are no more expensive than Winchester, Remington, or CCI. Places like Bullets.Com put them on sale all the time.
;)
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I have never used a Square deal and have no idea if the above describes your problem. Since a Dillon 550 is manually indexed, there's no reason to have that strong of a detent, and I doubt you'd see the issue with that press, but the Square Deal's detent might be a little overbuilt for its job, like the 650's. You are describing it as a lack of smoothness or a hitch in the rotation, but I would ask that you look at it closely and/or verify -- is this definitely happening during the rotation? Or is it happening at the end of the rotation, when it comes to a stop and the detent clicks into place.
Thanks for the lengthy comment and advice!
It is definitely happening at the end of the shell plate rotation -- the shell plate is "snapping" into place when it enters each station. Otherwise, the shell plate rotation is pretty smooth.
Based on your comments, and some other research I have done, that leads me to believe it is the detent ball popping up and hitting the shellplate. I have seen others recommend replacing the detent ball as you suggest, and/or clipping half a coil off of the detent spring that sits under the ball.
Since I am still a newb and learning the ins and outs of operating the press, getting a smooth stroke down, etc. I am hesitant to start clipping parts! I will, however, look into whether the plastic bearing sold for the 650 would work on the SDB.
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I will, however, look into whether the plastic [ball] bearing sold for the 650 would work on the SDB.
https://ballistictools.com/store/dillon-press-enhancements
Ebay auction #321239314109 [has a great explanation]
http://hitfactorshooting.com/
...or McMaster-Carr industrial supply http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-plastic-balls/=14gtf0j
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How about a lighter spring under the steel ball so it slides into position instead of being rammed into position?
We tune our pistol springs for suitability.
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Call Wolff Spring and see if they stock one for the Dillon SDB !!
;D
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There was a guy at 1911Forum.com who bought a 650 and then spent a lot of time going back and forth with very receptive techs at Dillon, improving this and that function of the 650, updating the press periodically throughout the process. It was a super informative thread, and I believe the guy knew his stuff. His solution was a nylon/plastic/polymer detent ball. The lower mass meant that there was less energy to deliver through the shellplate, AND the fact that the ball would give way and compress a little at the moment of impact meant the strike and energy transfer was less sharp. It makes sense to me. I think of a Newton's cradle, and that polymer ball just makes more sense.
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I'm sure the plastic ball helps, but if the ball is solid I'd think the amount of energy transferred would be close to the same. I can do a fair amount of damage with a plastic, or rubber, hammer.
I don't think like an engineer, however, so I'm likely wrong. :P
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I will, however, look into whether the plastic [ball] bearing sold for the 650 would work on the SDB.
https://ballistictools.com/store/dillon-press-enhancements
Ebay auction #321239314109 [has a great explanation]
http://hitfactorshooting.com/
...or McMaster-Carr industrial supply http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-plastic-balls/=14gtf0j
Thanks for these links, Wobbly. I have inquiries out to each of the companies to see if their detent balls/bearings will work with the SDB.
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OK, long weekend coming up, so hopefully I will have time to produce my first test run of loaded ammo.
Planning to start with the 124 gr RN FMJ bullets from Rocky Mountain Reloading. Recall that based on results of ?plunk? test, I am planning to use OAL of 1.125 (max OAL of 1.140, and subtracting .015 for set-back puts me at 1.125). I will be loading these with HP-38, and looking at Hodgdon Data Center, I see they have load data for 125 gr SIE FMJ, which is the closest thing I can find to my 124 gr RN FMJ from RMR. They list OAL of 1.090, starting load of 4.4 gr, max load of 4.8 gr. Since my bullet is 1 gr lighter, and my OAL is longer (1.125 vs. 1.090), I am safe to start at 4.4 gr and work up in .1 gr increments to 4.8 gr, correct?
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You would be safe with that procedure IMO. You might not make the listed velocity.
Keep in mind that with regard to pressure it's all about bullet weight and seating depth, not OAL
There's a thread a couple down that speaks to this because the 2 bullets in question are not the same length.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=83058.msg612211#msg612211
If your bullets are actually .2 longer, your seating depth will be .1 less at the oal you've chosen, and you'll be fine.
eta...
the 1 grain difference in bullet weight is inconsequential. You'll find close to that variance +/- in most bullets of the same weight from the same batch.
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What Painter said. PLUS...
Take off your shell plate and measure your detent ball. I will measure mine at first opportunity. If they match, anything specifically intended for the 650 will work. If they do not match, use the company that sells an assortment of sizes and buy the matching size.
And are these actual FMJ? I know RMR is selling jacketed rounds now, but they also sell plated RN, and sometimes new reloaders will call plated RN bullets FMJ, thinking they're the same thing. Just wanted to verify that they're FMJ. If so, as Painter said, that load data is fine. It won't work out exactly, but starting load will cover you in terms of safety.
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Thanks as always for the responses!
Take off your shell plate and measure your detention ball. I will measure mine at first opportunity. If they match, anything specifically intended for the 650 will work. If they do not match, use the company that sells an assortment of sizes and buy the matching size.
I measured it last night, it is .1875 inches for the SDB detent ball/bearing.
And are these actual FMJ? I know RMR is selling jacketed rounds now, but they also sell plated RN, and sometimes new reloaders will call plated RN bullets FMJ, thinking they're the same thing. Just wanted to verify that they're FMJ. If so, as Painter said, that load data is fine. It won't work out exactly, but starting load will cover you in terms of safety.
Thanks for asking. I know from what I have read that there is a difference between plated and FMJ, and I specifically bought the FMJ from RMR. That said, I'm not sure I could tell the difference just by looking at an actual bullet. :D I will compare to some of the plated bullets I bought from X-treme and see if I can discern/verify a difference!
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That said, I'm not sure I could tell the difference just by looking at an actual bullet.
Plated bullet will have the base of the bullet covered and most FMJ will have an exposed lead on the bullets base.
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Just to add...a covered base in a FMJ is usually termed a TMJ or Total Metal Jacket.
You can tell for sure by poking at a bullet with something hard. A plated bullet will dent pretty easily. A FMJ is much more resistant.
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You would be safe with that procedure IMO. You might not make the listed velocity.
Keep in mind that with regard to pressure it's all about bullet weight and seating depth, not OAL
There's a thread a couple down that speaks to this because the 2 bullets in question are not the same length.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=83058.msg612211#msg612211
If your bullets are actually .2 longer, your seating depth will be .1 less at the oal you've chosen, and you'll be fine.
eta...
the 1 grain difference in bullet weight is inconsequential. You'll find close to that variance +/- in most bullets of the same weight from the same batch.
I read through the thread on seating depth ... to make sure I'm understanding this correctly ...
Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - OACL
So for my 124 gr RMR FMJ (.605), using Blazer Brass casing (.7440) and 1.125 OACL, my seating depth = .605+.7440-1.125 = .224. By comparison, the Hodgdon load data for Sierra 125 gr FMJ (.575) doesn't have case length listed, so using same Blazer Brass case length for comparison (?) and 1.090 OACL, gives seating depth of .575+.7440-1.090 = .229, or .005 difference. Is five thousandths of an inch difference in seating depth significant enough to warrant addressing, or should I just proceed with recommended starting loads and work up in .1 gr increments?
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No, 0.005" is not going to effect your results one way or the other.
However, you only need something around 0.200" bullet seating depth to get the best results. A seating depth around 0.230" might rule out using certain brass. And, just because a load book writer used a certain OAL doesn't mean you have to; you can always go longer and err toward lower pressures.
Honestly, in your shoes (and I'm not, I promise) I might use 1.100 or 1.110". That's not going to change your incremental load ladder for testing or make you use more powder. It's simply going to back you away from issues with certain brands of brass and hopefully improve the feeding reliability.
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OK, Wobbly sir, now I am confused. You stated:
And, just because a load book writer used a certain OAL doesn't mean you have to; you can always go longer and err toward lower pressures.
Yes, that was my understanding and my intent. Hodgdon load data has 1.090 OAL. Based on results of my plunk test and subtracting .015, I was planning on using 1.125 OAL. So, longer, erring toward lower pressures.
But then you say:
Honestly, in your shoes (and I'm not, I promise) I might use 1.100 or 1.110". That's not going to change your incremental load ladder for testing or make you use more powder. It's simply going to back you away from issues with certain brands of brass and hopefully improve the feeding reliability.
The RMR bullet I am using measures 0.605, the Sierra bullet used by Hodgdon is 0.575, so my bullet is about 0.030 inch longer. However, the OAL I am using is 0.0305 inch longer (1.125 - 1.090). So, am I correct in thinking that pressure caused by seating depth should not be an issue? Wouldn't reducing OAL from 1.125 to 1.100 or 1.110 as you suggest, closer to Hodgdon's 1.090 OAL, increase pressure (albeit just to a small degree), thereby reducing my "safety" margin? Also, could you explain why this would improve feeding reliability? My understanding was that as long as I was under SAAMI max of 1.169, and using an OAL that passed the plunk test in my barrel (and above minimum of 1.0), the round should feed reliably.
I know that is a lot of questions, but I thought I had a good handle on determining proper OAL based on reading the stickies and many previous threads in this forum. Now you have me second-guessing myself, and I need to make sure I understand properly before proceeding any further.
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I THINK Wobbly is saying he'd be inclined to use 1.100 or 1.110 instead of Hodgdon's OAL of 1.090. I don't believe he's suggesting you shorten the OAL of 1.125 that you have been using down to 1.100 or 1.110. You're at a seating depth of .224 already at the 1.125 you have been using.
Or did I misread something? ;)
ALSO, in your calculations, just use a case length of .75 inches for ALL cases. SAAMI standards say a 9mm Luger case should be .754, but cases can range anywhere from .730 up to .760. Most are actually shorter than .750, even when they're new. One of the main reasons we look at seating depth, and why you're looking at it here, is because when the bullet is seated, what space is left over in the case is a combustion chamber, and the initial size of the combustion chamber affects pressure. The deeper the bullet is seated, the smaller the initial combustion chamber, and the higher the peak pressure will be. The size of that combustion chamber is unaffected by differences in case length. If you have two cases, where one is .740 and the other is .750, and you have the same bullet seated at 1.125, YES, the two cartridges would have different seating depths, which we measure from the case mouth to the bullet base. BUT the size of combustion chamber is measured from the bullet base down to the internal bottom of the case, so the combustion chambers will be the same size, even if the seating depths are different, given the exact same bullet at the exact same OAL. If that doesn't make sense, think of the bottom of the case as being at more or less the same location as your shell plate on your press while you're loading. With two matching bullets loaded to the same OAL, the distance from those bullets' bases to the shellplate are the same regardless of how tall the cases are.
So just use .75 for your case length all the time. It's an easier number to deal with, and you want to have a standardized case length so you're comparing apples to apples while looking at seating depth.
Also, keep in mind that creating data points at this level is extra credit work. I do it. I encourage others to do it. There are uses for it, and there's a lot to be said for having a broad, comprehensive understanding of everything that's going on. But understand that it's extra. People have loaded their own ammo for a long long time without paying attention to that sort of thing, so if you're having a conversation some day with someone you found out loads his/her own ammo, as well, and you start talking about some load you recently developed and the decisions you made regarding the differences between your seating depth of .225 and the published data's depth of .190, don't be surprised if that person looks at you like you have a lobster on your head. The extra credit work is good for you, but not everyone wants the extra credit work. I know a guy who doesn't even set up his seating dies to a load a particular bullet to a particular OAL. He eyeballs it. "Hmmmmmm.... ohhhhhh... about right there looks good." Seriously. Still has all his fingers and everything. ;)
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I know that is a lot of questions, but I thought I had a good handle on determining proper OAL based on reading the stickies and many previous threads in this forum. Now you have me second-guessing myself, and I need to make sure I understand properly before proceeding any further.
I'm pretty sure Wobbly was talking about you lengthening from 1.090 to 1.110, not shortening to 1.110.
Your understanding is just fine.
Given a particular bullet and a particular pistol, there will be some OAL, below which you will start having feeding issues. With CZ pistols, it seems to be down near 1.000 where you are almost certainly going to have problems with most bullets, but on a case by case basis, any bullet might start having problems at lengths longer than that, and there's no good way to predict it, so you have to find out the hard way. As a general rule, you shouldn't go shorter than you need to in order to account for plunking and accuracy tuning. Wobbly was just suggesting that 1.090 was almost certainly shorter than necessary, so there was no reason to load that short and tempt the failure-to-feed demon into showing up. He wasn't saying you were likely to have feeding problems. He was just saying there was no reason to find out.
The couple feeding issues I've had with 9mm Luger and CZ have turned out to be related to Filthy Pistol Syndrome. And I've had a couple different bullets I load down to 1.060. No feeding issues for me related to OAL yet.
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I think Mr.W is suggesting a length that he had experience with, and knows the results. Your thinking is otherwise correct. Don't over think it too much. ;)
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I THINK Wobbly is saying he'd be inclined to use 1.100 or 1.110 instead of Hodgdon's OAL of 1.090. I don't believe he's suggesting you shorten the OAL of 1.125 that you have been using down to 1.100 or 1.110. You're at a seating depth of .224 already at the 1.125 you have been using.
Ahh, OK, thanks. My initial understanding was correct, then. Glad to hear I was not way off-base.
Yes, your points on internal combustion/pressure chamber make sense to me -- very intuitive. If bullets are same size, seating one bullet deeper than the other would cause more pressure. Check. I understand needing to be careful if using a longer bullet than was used in load data so you do not inadvertently shrink the size of the combustion chamber and cause more pressure. In my case, my bullet is longer then was used in Hodgdon load data, but I am not seating it as deeply, so should not be an issue.
Painter -- thanks for your feedback as well. I know that much of the info provided by the tribal elders on this forum is"graduate level" info -- way above and beyond what most reloaders worry about. I will try not to over-think things!
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OK, I loaded up my first batch of ammo using 124 gr RN FMJ bullets from Rocky Mountain Reloading, Winchester SPP, HP-38, and Blazer Brass cases. Target OAL of 1.125 and 0.378 taper crimp. I made five rounds each at 4.4 gr, 4.5 gr, 4.6 gr and 4.7 gr. I made all 20 rounds one a time, using my SDB as a turret press, and visually verified that each case received a powder charge during the loading process.
Actual OAL results ranged from 1.120 ? 1.129, and taper crimp results ranged from 0.3770 - 0.3785. All 20 rounds passed the plunk test in my barrel ? ?TINGed? when dropped in, rotated freely, and dropped out under their own weight when turned upside down. All of the primers appear to have seated properly ? look similar to seating depth on factory Blazer ammo, and I cannot feel any anomalies when running my finger over them. Are there any other inspections or measurements I should do prior to test-firing these rounds?
EDIT to add: as I was loading up these 20 rounds, I pulled apart a couple of the rounds using a kinetic bullet puller, and I did not see any rings or markings on the bullet from over-crimping.
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Are there any other inspections or measurements I should do prior to test-firing these rounds?
As a part of visual inspection check for case cracks. Sometimes brass cracks while seating the bullet from stretching. Otherwise it should be good for a first test.
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I know that is a lot of questions, but I thought I had a good handle on determining proper OAL based on reading the stickies and many previous threads in this forum. Now you have me second-guessing myself, and I need to make sure I understand properly before proceeding any further.
Sincere apologies, sir. (Write that down as another internet first for the CZ Fourm... an on-line apology!) I mis-read your post and thought you were going to use the 1.090 length you were discussing. My bad!
However, there is no "correct" or "proper" cartridge OAL. It's anything between 1.000" as a suggested Min OAL and whatever the "push test" determines is your Max OAL. So you get to make the choice, and 1.125" is as good as anything else. Maybe better, since you can use that with about any 124gr RN out there.
You have such a wide OAL range to work with by going with 1.125" that your priorities now change to achieving good "feeding" and adequate "bullet insertion depth". 1.125" covers all those bases. Good choice.
I'll try to have my glasses on next time. ;D
(Note to self... Breakfast cereals should be eaten with milk, not porters and stouts.)
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I THINK Wobbly is saying...
I think Mr.W is suggesting...
I think Mr. W should have his eyes checked, and not try to answer posts before his coffee takes full effect. Thanks guys for the brilliant mind reading.
;D
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Sincere apologies, sir. (Write that down as another internet first for the CZ Fourm... an on-line apology!) I mis-read your post and thought you were going to use the 1.090 length you were discussing. My bad!
However, there is no "correct" or "proper" cartridge OAL. It's anything between 1.000" as a suggested Min OAL and whatever the "push test" determines is your Max OAL. So you get to make the choice, and 1.125" is as good as anything else. Maybe better, since you can use that with about any 124gr RN out there.
You have such a wide OAL range to work with by going with 1.125" that your priorities now change to achieving good "feeding" and adequate "bullet insertion depth". 1.125" covers all those bases. Good choice.
No worries! Glad to hear it was just a miscommunication, and not a fundamental misunderstanding of the basics on my part!!
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OK, I loaded up my first batch of ammo using 124 gr RN FMJ bullets from Rocky Mountain Reloading, Winchester SPP, HP-38, and Blazer Brass cases. Target OAL of 1.125 and 0.378 taper crimp. I made five rounds each at 4.4 gr, 4.5 gr, 4.6 gr and 4.7 gr. I made all 20 rounds one a time, using my SDB as a turret press, and visually verified that each case received a powder charge during the loading process.
Actual OAL results ranged from 1.120 ? 1.129, and taper crimp results ranged from 0.3770 - 0.3785. All 20 rounds passed the plunk test in my barrel ? ?TINGed? when dropped in, rotated freely, and dropped out under their own weight when turned upside down. All of the primers appear to have seated properly ? look similar to seating depth on factory Blazer ammo, and I cannot feel any anomalies when running my finger over them. Are there any other inspections or measurements I should do prior to test-firing these rounds?
EDIT to add: as I was loading up these 20 rounds, I pulled apart a couple of the rounds using a kinetic bullet puller, and I did not see any rings or markings on the bullet from over-crimping.
Are you going to chrono this stuff? These sound pretty HOT to me?
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Are you going to chrono this stuff? These sound pretty HOT to me?
They're inside the standard pressure load data, .1gr shy of max. They're shallowly seated FMJ, a little deeper than most other 124gr FMJ, but not much. I suspect he'll hit a PF of 133 at 4.5/4.6. This a common 9mm minor load. They're not going to be particularly hot.
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I'll pick 4.5 grs at 130PF. (Given jacketted or plated .355 bullets)
Who's next to estimate the results? ----- = ... PF ;)
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I guess I am missing something here as I should be at about 130PF with the HP-38 loads at 4.1 gr with the PD124 the last I tested. Granted I am stuffing them in a bit deeper at around .255 I think with the 1.075 COL, but I would not think that would make a .4 gr difference.
I was at 4.0 gr 1021 fps
4.2 gr 1069 fps
I do still need to run the 4.1 over the chrono, but for now they just work and nothing special here.
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Copemech, you're talking about a PD 124gr JHP. You are estimating at an OAL of 1.075 with 4.1gr of HP-38 that you would be around 1045, which is a reasonable assumption based on those straddling data points.
With a PD 124gr JHP at 1.085 and 4.1gr HP-38, I got 1033. So your estimate seated .10 deeper than mine in a CZ you'd estimate to get about 12 feet/sec more than I did, which suggests our data agrees pretty well.
But he's shooting an FMJ-RN. Different animal. I have one string shot with HP-38 and the Precision Delta 124gr RN (sized .356 instead of .355), but the data doesn't look right, and I think it was at the just slightly too low, poor pressure seal point where a .2gr increase will jump it up 60-70 feet/sec. I think my guess is good. We will see. ;)
Either way, in terms of "hot" or not, he's inside the Hodgdon standard pressure data. He's fine.
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Are you going to chrono this stuff? These sound pretty HOT to me?
They're inside the standard pressure load data, .1gr shy of max. They're shallowly seated FMJ, a little deeper than most other 124gr FMJ, but not much. I suspect he'll hit a PF of 133 at 4.5/4.6. This a common 9mm minor load. They're not going to be particularly hot.
Yes, what IDescribe said! I don't have a chrono, and I'm shooting at an indoor range where I wouldn't be able to set one up, anyway. Hodgdon load data was 1.090 OAL for 125 gr FMJ, min load of 4.4 gr H-38, max load of 4.8 gr. I'm using 124 gr RN FMJ, OAL of 1.125, and loading from 4.4 - 4.7. So, a little longer OAL than Hodgdon's data, and stopping .1 gr short of their max load.
Assuming I get out of work at a decent hour today, hoping to make it to the range tonight to test-fire my first reloads!
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Assuming I get out of work at a decent hour today, hoping to make it to the range tonight to test-fire my first reloads!
What !!
Didn't you call in sick ? O0
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Didn't you call in sick ? O0
I find his lack of focus... disturbing. O0
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Didn't you call in sick ? O0
I find his lack of focus... disturbing. O0
Yes, I am stuck in the conundrum/paradox known to many shooters and reloaders: I have to work in order to be able to afford to reload and shoot ... but working takes time away from shooting and reloading. >:(
So my options are:
1) find a way to get paid to shoot -- not bloody likely; given my performance in IDPA matches to date, no sponsors are going to be beating a path to my door, except maybe Kleenex ("when your performance is this sad, use Kleenex-brand tissues to dry your tears"). :'(
2) find a sugar momma to support me -- dwindling potential for me to reel in a suitable sugar momma as I get older/less attractive; plus Mrs. Baldrage would not be very happy with me, and it would be hard for me to shoot with broken arm/concussion/organ damage.
If it makes you feel better, I have been sitting down at my reloading bench every night to gaze fondly upon my 20 shiney test rounds, murmuring "my preciousssss" ...
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Yes, I am stuck in the conundrum/paradox known to many shooters and reloaders: I have to work in order to be able to afford to reload and shoot...
Work is the curse of the drinking classes.
- Oscar Wilde
I find his lack of focus... disturbing. O0
What I find most reprehensible is that this thread has gone on 6 pages now with nary a shot being fired. One can only imagine how many pages we'll be up to by the time we start trying new powders or get to the first 1000 round production run.
I'm sending flowers and a condolence card to Mrs Baldrage.
O0
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All right! I'm officially a reloader! All 20 rounds fired and functioned perfectly! ;D ;D ;D
Have to admit I was pretty nervous firing that first shot ... kept thinking about Wobbly's old comment about tying the gun to a tree and pulling the trigger with a piece of string. I was watching the slide to make sure it functioned and case ejected on the first shot, so I missed the target entirely, but next 4 rounds made one hole in the target at 7 yards. In the picture below, top circle target was shot with my normal Blazer Brass 124 gr factory ammo, bottom target is my reloads with 4.4 gr HP-38, Winchester SPP, RMR 124 gr RN FMJ.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5683/30040385920_6aa05d46a3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MLyQ9h)20161014_RELOADS_4_2 (1) (https://flic.kr/p/MLyQ9h) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
4.5, 4.6, and 4.7 gr also functioned fine, but targets did not turn out as impressive, just my typical scattershot 4-5 inch grouping. ;) Shot all of them free-hand, about one round/second, and I was more concerned about them functioning properly rather than trying to judge each one for recoil and accuracy. I think 4.4 gr felt pretty soft on recoil, and 4.7 was a little snappier, more like factory ammo, but couldn't say for sure. Nothing noteworthy to say about 4.5 and 4.6 gr. I will load up another 10 of each powder charge, and do a proper accuracy test from a bench rest next time I go to the range.
For now, I'm very happy that the months of research and weeks fiddling with the SDB to get it dialed in paid off. Thanks Wobbly, Painter, IDescribe, 1SOW, Boris_LA, and others who have taken the time to comment/answer my questions!
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Congratulations !!
So in the end, we covered a lot of steps to insure your safety, but it wasn't really that hard, was it ?
???
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I remember the first time I pulled the trigger on one of my reloads...
I closed my eyes. ;D
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Congrats! :)
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Really a methodical progression to excellent results. "Methodical" is meant as a compliment.
Now comes the $$$investment period followed by the "more shooting" for the same $$$ period.
Enjoy the trip.
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I very much liked the "Baldrage's reloading log" post but I laughed at the reply made by "Wobbly". I have found notes applicable to club matches done it year 2008 and wanted to review powder charge and primer brand used for different projectile weights (e.g. 120, 130 match, or 140) and bullet number in Remington 7-08 caliber. Paper target distances did range from 25 to 200 yards. Thanks for the posts. :)
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So I had a nice HP-38 ladder loaded up, 10 rounds each 4.4, 4.5, 4.6 and 4.7 gr. Have been waiting for weeks to make it to range and shoot them off from a bench rest, so I could find "the one."
I finally made it to the range on Thursday night, warmed up with some Blazer factory ammo, then proudly took out my ammo box holding my very own handloads, which had been labeled in neat little rows ... and OPENED THE FREAKING CASE UPSIDE DOWN! All my carefully organized rounds spilled all over each other, and I had no clue which was 4.4 gr and which was 4.7 gr! >:(
So rather than a careful "lab test" from a bench rest, I just shot them all off free style in failure-to-stop drill. Good news is all went "bang", all feed and ejected just fine, and follow-up shots did seem faster/easier than with factory ammo.
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...then proudly took out my ammo box holding my very own handloads, which had been labeled in neat little rows ... and OPENED THE FREAKING CASE UPSIDE DOWN! All my carefully organized rounds spilled all over each other...
Do we need to call in Mrs B ???
You need one more label...
(https://cdn.barcodediscount.com/images/logos/72/Packing.gif)
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Baldrage--I read and appreciate posts and pictures. I also read Wobbly comments et al. He may also have experience and a sense of humor. This forum is primarily about CZ's so I am learning about a CZ 9mm P-07--keeping it stock for now but I appreciate the tuning posts that also include pictures. Safety relative to reloading, hunting, range time etc. is very important to me. I am a hunter education instructor (a state volunteer since 2000) and an instructor/coach of different types.
DeltaGray
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Still intent on finding ?the answer? for which load I will use as my standard practice and competition round, I loaded up another 50 rounds using RMR 124 gr RN FMJ at nominal 1.125 COAL, using Winchester SPP. Rather than a full ladder from 4.4 ? 4.7 gr of HP-38, I loaded 25 rounds using 4.5 gr and 25 rounds at 4.6 gr, based upon assumption that 4.4 gr would not meet power factor, and that I did not want to use max load at 4.7 gr [recall that I had tested 10 rounds each at 4.4, 4.5, 4.6, and 4.7 previously]. I measured and plunk-tested all 50 rounds using the barrel removed from my pistol. All 50 rounds plunked and spun, except one round which plunked fine, but would not spin freely. Upon closer inspection, there was a small burr/dent on the lip of the case which was sufficient to keep it from spinning in the barrel. I set the round aside, based on the assumption it would be unsafe to shoot ? is that correct?
Modified to change 1.25 OAL to 1.125 OAL
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I loaded up another 50 rounds using RMR 124 gr RN FMJ at nominal 1.25 COAL, using Winchester SPP.
How do you fit those rounds in the magazine? O0
[Mods added quote. We think he shoots those in a 38 Super !]
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I won't tell you why I use zip lock bags with individual labels for my test rounds. ::)
When you get your Chrono, you have to be sure to label which load is from which string of fire..
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D'oh! I meant to type 1.125 OAL, not 1.25.
Good suggestions on "this side up" label or using separate zip-loc bags for each load. For this batch, I just marked each 4.6 gr round with a sharpie so I could tell the difference if I accidentally dumped them all together again.
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Rules For Staying Married
#1) Do not, under any circumstance, apply a "This Side Up" label to your wife's forehead.
This is a full-service forum.
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Never did get an answer to my question from last week -- if a round will "plunk" fine, but not spin freely, is it safe to shoot, or better to just play it safe and chuck it in the dud bin?
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I measured and plunk-tested all 50 rounds using the barrel removed from my pistol. All 50 rounds plunked and spun, except one round which plunked fine, but would not spin freely. Upon closer inspection, there was a small burr/dent on the lip of the case which was sufficient to keep it from spinning in the barrel. I set the round aside, based on the assumption it would be unsafe to shoot ? is that correct?
In my head a burr and a dent are dimensionally opposite. The burr sticks out. The dent caves in. I'm not sure how a dent would cause this on a cartridge where the bullet was otherwise loaded short enough that it doesn't contact the lands, assuming it's also gone through the crimp die. And if it's a burr on the case mouth, I would be curious as to why it's sticking out if it went through the crimp die. Did you pull the first round that went through the seating die to measure OAL, then not get it back in rotation to go through the crimp die?
Anyway, you have two safety concerns in this case. 1) Is the cartridge too long where it's going to prevent the gun from going fully into battery? No. It sounds like it's seating all the way, or at least up to a thousandth short of all the way. So, no. Or 2) Pressure. Is there something here that's going to dangerously spike pressure? It sounds like it's not buried into the lands, so I don't think that's an issue either. From the picture I have of the situation, I wouldn't worry about it, but maybe an actual picture of this dent/burr would make sure we have the right picture. ;)
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I measured and plunk-tested all 50 rounds using the barrel removed from my pistol. All 50 rounds plunked and spun, except one round which plunked fine, but would not spin freely. Upon closer inspection, there was a small burr/dent on the lip of the case which was sufficient to keep it from spinning in the barrel. I set the round aside, based on the assumption it would be unsafe to shoot ? is that correct?
This is a common occurrence. Maybe 1 out of every 3000 or so. Simply check the OAL and make sure a short-stroke isn't letting the bullet bury itself in the rifling.
If you find a case deformity that keeps the round from chambering, my view is it's safe to shoot, but not what you want to use to compete. So set it aside and pile it in with your next lot of plinking ammo. Despite our best efforts, these things happen.
;)
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Thanks for the replies. Burr is so small, it would be hard to get a picture without an extreme close-up -- I did not see it when examining cases both prior to and after loading, nor when I was measuring finished rounds. Only noticed it when the round wouldn't spin in my barrel and I looked at under a magnifying glass.
Not sure how it got there in the first place. Could be I dinged it during loading, or it could have been there when I picked up the brass and just didn't notice it.
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Was able to shoot off the
50 49 rounds I had loaded up using RMR 124 gr RN FMJ at nominal 1.125 COAL, using Winchester SPP -- 25 loaded at 4.5 gr HP-38 and 25 rounds at 4.6 gr.
I shot 5 rounds at a time, alternating between 4.5 gr and 4.6 gr, at 5, 10, and 15 yards. All shot freestyle, about 2 rounds/second.
I don't have a chrono, and could not set one up at my indoor range even if I did have one, so I can't make any assessment on FPS and standard deviation.
Here are the results at 5 yards - 4.5 gr targets on the left, 4.6 gr targets on the right. I definitely shot the 4.5 gr more accurately than the 4.6 gr.
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5630/30897137572_a7ae3d7638_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/P5gUyu)11152016_RMR_TEST-5YARDS (https://flic.kr/p/P5gUyu) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
Results at 10 yards -- I was more accurate with the 4.6 gr (notice that I switched the order of the targets - 4.6 gr on the left, and 4.5 gr on the right).
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5686/30897136342_3fa4dac191_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/P5gUch)11152016_RMR_TEST-10YARDS (https://flic.kr/p/P5gUch) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
Lastly, finished up with 5 rounds of each load at 15 yards. Wasn't really accurate with either, but that's probably just me, not the ammo. Notice that two of the holes on the 4.5 gr looked like they tore the paper, rather than punching a clean hole. Is that evidence of "key-holing"?
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5740/30897135372_3f563c44b2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/P5gTUy)11152016_RMR_TEST-15YARDS (https://flic.kr/p/P5gTUy) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
So, the two loads seemed pretty close in terms of my ability to shoot either one accurately. Given that, unless the cognoscenti here on the board advise me otherwise I am leaning toward going with 4.6 gr as my standard load for this bullet, to ensure I make PF and to provide a bit more FPS "oomph" for bowling pin matches.
Oh, and I should mention that with this batch, I passed the milestone of loading/shooting my first 100 handloads -- so all of you who are into the hundreds of thousands can go ahead and snicker. :P
Next up, I will load up the remainder of my 124 gr RMR sample batch (about 150 bullets), then try the sample of 124 RN plated Extreme bullets. Previous plunk testing with empty cartridge indicated I could load these at 1.125 OAL or longer and Extreme says to load these at "mid-level" jacketed levels, so I should be OK using the same 4.4 - 4.7 load window, correct?
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Notice that two of the holes on the 4.5 gr looked like they tore the paper, rather than punching a clean hole. Is that evidence of "key-holing"?
No, that's evidence that you slid that paper up and down on something rough, and that something snagged a couple "petals" of paper on the backside of the target and tore the paper. You see how all the bullet holes in all the targets have those little RN charcoal flowers around them? Those two holes you are wondering about have those little charcoal flowers, too. That means the bullets went through nose first.
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That ripped hole with lots of black is the result of RN bullets. FP or SWC styles will give you a much cleaner hole in paper.
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Moving on to my first test of Extreme 124 gr RN bullets... These plunk tested at SAAMI max of 1.169 in my barrel, so I went with 1.15 OAL.
I loaded up 5 rounds each at 3.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, and 4.4 gr of HP-38. All of them cycled the gun and fired fine. Couldn't really tell any difference in recoil or accuracy.
I think I will load up 25 at 4.2 gr and 25 and 4.4 gr, then test them for accuracy against the 124 gr RMR RN bullets I have been loading at 4.6 gr HP-38 to see which is more accurate for me.
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Moving on to my first test of Extreme 124 gr RN bullets... These plunk tested at SAAMI max of 1.169 in my barrel, so I went with 1.15 OAL.
Shorter is better-er. Try 1.125 up to 1.140" on those. You'll get more case engagement, which can be a good-er thing.
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Wobbly, Sir,
Shorter is better-er. Try 1.125 up to 1.140" on those. You'll get more case engagement, which can be a good-er thing.
Please to explain "case engagement" and why more is better-er? To my novice mind, longer is better-er, assuming OAL is within SAAMI specs and the cartridge plunks/feeds well, as it reduces case pressure. I can't picture why seating the bullet deeper would result in anything other than more pressure and more FPS, which I guess is not a bad thing if that is what you are looking for in order to maximize FPS per gr of powder. Is there some other advantage?
Hodgdon load data for 124 gr Berry's HBRN TP, which is the closest bullet I can find to Extreme 124 gr RN plated, uses 1.15 OAL, with 3.9 gr starting load and 4.4 gr max load for HP-38. If I were to shorten from 1.15 to 1.125, I would shift the load window down, correct? Say, 3.7 gr starting load to 4.2 gr max load?
Thanks in advance, and Happy Thanksgiving!
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Unlike rifle loads, loading pistol ammo close to max length doesn't necessarily improve accuracy.
Seating the bullet deeper helps align the bullet straighter and can improve the case expansion seal in the chamber.
It's also a little more economical with the powder needed to reach your preferred bullet speed.
Wobbly started out loading that BRY bullet at around 1.140-ish, and I followed his lead. We both came to find that loading shorter improved the results we got.
I've been getting good results at 1.128" lately. That is just with my powder loads and shooting results in my pistols. YMMV.
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Hodgdon load data for 124 gr Berry's HBRN TP, which is the closest bullet I can find to Extreme 124 gr RN plated, uses 1.15 OAL, with 3.9 gr starting load and 4.4 gr max load for HP-38. If I were to shorten from 1.15 to 1.125, I would shift the load window down, correct? Say, 3.7 gr starting load to 4.2 gr max load?
In general, I wouldn't personally reduce my load for an OAL reduction of .025 if everything else about my bullet and the load data matched up 124 plated RN to 124 plated RN. Starting load covers you on that. That's kind of the why we should use starting load. ;) What I would do is make note of the published data's maximum velocity and use that as my hard ceiling, though, in general.
In this case, however, we can do a little more. The Hodgdon data is for the Berry's HBRN at OAL 1.15. I happen to know that those bullets are about .619 in length. That means that at OAL 1.15, that Berry's bullet's seating depth will be .219. Now, when we switch our attention over to that XTreme 124gr RN, THAT bullet's length is about .583. At an OAL of 1.15, the XTreme 124 RN's seating depth is .183. If you shorten the OAL with the XTreme to 1.125, the seating depth would be .208, which is still not as deep at the Berry's at OAL 1.15.
So at OAL 1.125 with that XTreme 124gr RN, you're likely to get a little LESS pressure that with the Berry's at 1.15, not more. There's no reason to reduce the charge window at all with that OAL.
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Wobbly started out loading that BRY bullet at around 1.140-ish, and I followed his lead. We both came to find that loading shorter improved the results we got.
I've been getting good results at 1.128" lately. That is just with my powder loads and shooting results in my pistols. YMMV.
Exactly. I haven't personally seen a trend across all bullets and pistols. Some things just like to be loaded shorter than others in certain pistols. I have read a post somewhere where Angus Hobdell mentioned shortening up OAL on some load more than "normal" because he found it to be more accurate. Different combinations are going to like different things. One of the advantages of reloading is getting to play around and look for sweet spots. ;)
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Unlike rifle loads, loading pistol ammo close to max length doesn't necessarily improve accuracy.
Seating the bullet deeper helps align the bullet straighter and can improve the case expansion seal in the chamber.
It's also a little more economical with the powder needed to reach your preferred bullet speed.
Wobbly started out loading that BRY bullet at around 1.140-ish, and I followed his lead. We both came to find that loading shorter improved the results we got.
I've been getting good results at 1.128" lately. That is just with my powder loads and shooting results in my pistols. YMMV.
You still loading 4.1 of N320, or have you moved on to something else?
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Yes, 4.1 works well for me with the 124 HBRN.
Added: this is with the ORIGINAL n320. 🔫
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Please to explain "case engagement" and why more is better-er? To my novice mind, longer is better-er, assuming OAL is within SAAMI specs and the cartridge plunks/feeds well, as it reduces case pressure. I can't picture why seating the bullet deeper would result in anything other than more pressure and more FPS, which I guess is not a bad thing if that is what you are looking for in order to maximize FPS per gr of powder. Is there some other advantage?
Like 1SOW said, we don't know why, all we know is that it works.
I personally think that the bullets are getting physically knocked out of alignment with the case when they hit the feed ramp. When you load long, it could be like installing a hinge in the middle of the cartridge.
In actuality, it's probably a little of everything. But the results are conclusive. Try it yourself.
;)
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1SOW, IDescribe, Wobbly -- thank for the explanation!
I will load up some Extreme 124 gr RN at 1.125 OAL with 3.7, 4.0, and 4.3 HP-38 and see how they shoot compared to the ones I loaded at 1.15 OAL with 4.2 and 4.4 gr.
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I loaded up and fired off some of the Extreme 124 gr RN plated bullets at 1.125 OAL (as suggested by the cognoscenti; previously I had loaded some at 1.15 OAL), using HP-38 loaded at 3.7 gr, 4.0 gr, and 4.3 gr. All three loads functioned and fired fine, none of the cases showed flattened primers or other signs of over pressure. 3.7 gr was very soft shooting but undoubtedly way too light to make power factor. 4.0 and 4.3 had a little more ?oomph? but still less recoil than my standard factory ammo (Blazer Brass 124 gr RN). Seemed to be at least as accurate as the rounds I had previously loaded at 1.15 OAL.
Think I will load up 50 at 4.2 gr and another 50 at 4.3 gr and see if I can tell any difference or if one is more accurate for me than the other.
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WOW, you Guys have my head spinning. My background in pistol shooting is NRA Bullseye and I have reloaded around 28,000 rounds of 45APC and I thought I knew
A little bit. But I guess I was right a, "little bit". So I guess I am a little behind the curve in reloading 9mm. Now I do not plan on competing with the PCR, but I do want to make accurate rounds, when that time comes to start reloading I might need some help for you guys to help me figure this all out.
Miland
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Miland -
"Fear not, for I bring you tidings of great joy." Everything you learned on 45ACP is applicable. The problems are... 9x19 Luger is a taper cartridge, a high pressure cartridge, and the CZ typically has a shorter freebore then you're accustomed to working with.
So you're going to need to round out your reloading process by taking several more steps. That's all.
When you update your reloading procedure to fully accommodate the CZ, then apply that knowledge back on 45ACP, you'll probably be making better ammo.
Tis the season to hang in there !! ;)
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When you update your reloading procedure to fully accommodate the CZ, then apply that knowledge back on 45ACP, you'll probably be making better ammo.
That's what I was thinking also. Thanks for the encouragement. I look forward to the adventure.
Miland
[Mods corrected quote]
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Completed my first ?mass production? run with my Dillon SDB over the weekend. I loaded up 100 of the Extreme 124 gr RN plated bullets at 1.125 OAL, using 4.2 gr HP-38 and Winchester Small Pistol Primers, and another 100 using 4.3 gr HP-38. I was having some problems with primers flipping in my Dillon SDB a few weeks ago, but I monkeyed around with the primer slide and apparently got it in working order, because I had no issues over the course of loading 200 rounds. I did not operate the SDB in full-on progressive loading mode for all 200 rounds, but rather, did 10 rounds at a time so I did not get too overwhelmed with everything going on during my first ?big? production run (previous to this, I had been using the SDB as a turret press to make one round at a time). I measured the first round, and a random round out of every 10 thereafter for OAL and crimp. I'm still getting variation of OAL up to .003, so don't quite have that smooth stroke that Wobbly talks about, apparently.
I did not see any dead spiders at any point during this process. ;D
It took me about an hour to do 100 rounds, and that was with getting all the components out of storage, filling the powder hopper, triple-checking the charge, measuring every 10th round, etc. and then putting everything away when I was done.
Plunk-tested/spin-tested all 200 rounds in my SP01 barrel and all passed. I marked each round so I can identify which are 4.2 gr and which are 4.3 gr. Only thing left to do is go to the range and shoot ?em off.
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Glad to hear. ;)
A couple of notes:
ONE -- Don't mark bullets unless you are comitted to using that exact marking for that exact load forevermore, and use that marking for nothing but that load forevermore. Instead, separate loads within boxes, and CLEARLY label the boxes as to what is in them and how they are organized. If you use a particular mark on a bullet today, you might not remember what that mark means 6 months from now when you pick up that box that you didn't shoot all of for whatever reason and think "I remember putiting this mark on here, but...". The only thing I would recommend marking cartridges for is differentiating your spent brass from someone else's.
TWO -- The odds of making a mistake with a particular cartridge go up dramatically when you stop the process, do something else, then restart. You might think stopping every ten rounds helps you keep a handle on things, but it actually increases the odds of messing up. As a general rule, you should not break the process except when necessary.
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Thanks for the feedback!
ONE -- Don't mark bullets unless you are comitted to using that exact marking for that exact load forevermore ... The only thing I would recommend marking cartridges for is differentiating your spent brass from someone else's.
Yup, that's why I marked the rounds -- so when I pick up brass after shooting at my indoor range, I can tell which rounds are mine, and examine them for any signs of overpressure. They are all stored in labeled ammo boxes.
Good advice also on not breaking the process. Now that I have some confidence in my ability to run the SDB as a true progressive machine, I won't need to stop as often.
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I did not operate the SDB in full-on progressive loading mode for all 200 rounds....
My friend, you've been watching too many YouTube reloading videos. There is only one correct speed for any progressive press... slow and steady.
TWO -- The odds of making a mistake with a particular cartridge go up dramatically when you stop the process, do something else, then restart. You might think stopping every ten rounds helps you keep a handle on things, but it actually increases the odds of messing up.
This is true. Newbies have confirmed this several times.
As a general rule, you should not break the process except when necessary.
This includes the blogging process.
I can hardly wait until this thread reaches page 20 !! ;D
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I shot off all 200 rounds of Extreme 124 gr RN, using Winchester Small Pistol Primers, loaded at 1.125 4.2 gr and 4.3 gr. A summary of my range session is in my training log here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=79414.msg628012;boardseen#new
I could not feel any substantive difference between the two loads, but 4.2 seemed a bit more accurate based on results. However, switching back-and-forth disrupted my focus on shooting technique and affected my overall accuracy over the course of this training session, so hard to treat this one outing as providing a definitive answer to which is best for me. I will load a couple of hundred rounds at both 4.2 and 4.3, and shoot them in more standard training sessions over the next few weeks before settling on ?the one.?
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I could not feel any substantive difference between the two loads, but 4.2 seemed a bit more accurate based on results. However, switching back-and-forth disrupted my focus on shooting technique and affected my overall accuracy over the course of this training session, so hard to treat this one outing as providing a definitive answer to which is best for me. I will load a couple of hundred rounds at both 4.2 and 4.3, and shoot them in more standard training sessions over the next few weeks before settling on ?the one.?
And that's true. When the full load range is at or above 1.0gr, and we divide the load range by 5 to setup our initial increments, then you'll end up with ammo with 0.2 or 0.3gr increments.
If we go back to fill in (say between 4.2 and 4.4gr), we really don't expect to feel any differences in those 0.1gr incremental rounds. We are simply looking for minor accuracy improvements and adding a comfort zone over minimum PF.
If you really want to test accuracy, then get yourself a wrist rest and sit down.
;)
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What Wobbly said for sure!
I've been "improving" loads I've been shooting for YEARS. The load is the same, but the biggest variable, the SHOOTER, changes over time.. :o
Reloading let's you keep up with your changes.
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Reloading let's you keep up with your changes.
[Que the David Bowie background music here.]
:o
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Queue the speling Nazi responses
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Queue the speling Nazi responses
;D
Speeelling counts.
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That's too
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Speeelling counts.
Misspeelling discounts.
Or, as the sign in my dad's wood shop read.... "Zero Defecks !"
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We're not spelling Nazis. We're the alt write. O0
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Speeelling counts.
Misspeelling discounts.
Or, as the sign in my dad's wood shop read.... "Zero Defecks !"
I have a sign... ;D
in my paint shop.
It says DILLIGAF.
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I've been loading up the Extreme 124 gr RN at 1.125 COAL, using both 4.2 gr HP-38 and 4.3 gr, with WSPP. Have shot a couple of hundred of each, and went ahead and loaded up the remainder of the 1,000 extreme bullets I purchased, 400 using 4.3 gr, and 300 with 4.2 gr:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/764/32402121916_d10a2b5908_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RngkYq)extreme_124gr_stockpile (https://flic.kr/p/RngkYq) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/704/32290928912_7d44ace3aa_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RcrsaE)extreme 124 gr (https://flic.kr/p/RcrsaE) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
My plan is to finish shooting off this batch, then go back and look at my targets to see if one load was more accurate than the other. Based on the results, I'll pick either 4.2 gr HP-38 or 4.3 gr as my "standard" Extreme load.
Going by the empty WSPP boxes, I've now loaded 1,600 rounds in my short career as a reloader. Still a newb, but at least my technique is improving (getting only about 1 primer not fully seated every two hundred rounds or so, and my QC process catches it when I do). I'm able to crank out 200 rounds in 90 minutes on my SDB, working at a methodical, steady pace, and that includes getting all the components out of storage, getting everything set up, loading the rounds, then putting everything away again.
It will take me a while to use up the Extreme rounds I have loaded, so thought I would try out the sample packs of Blue Bullets 125 gr LRN (250 rounds) and Rocky Mountain Reloading 124 gr plated RN (500 rounds). Appreciate a sanity check from the tribal elders before I make up my initial test ladders ...
Plunk testing with dummy rounds and my empty SP01 Shadow barrel revealed that 1.128 COAL for the Blue Bullets would plunk, but not spin or fall out of the barrel without a little assistance. 1.125 COAL would plunk, spin, and fall out with no issues. So, subtracting standard .015 off-set gives me a nominal COAL for my barrel of 1.110. Looking at Hodgdon's load data for HP-38, they show starting load of 3.9 gr and max load of 4.4 gr for 125 gr LCN (no brand listed). Since I don't know which brand of bullet they used, I can't hazard a guess as to bullet length compared to my Blue Bullets. Therefore, because my COAL is shorter, I should shift the load window down, correct? Starting load of 3.8 gr HP-38 and max load of 4.3 gr make sense?
Similarly, plunk testing the RMR 124 gr plated RN revealed 1.141 COAL would plunk, spin, and fall out, so I subtract .015 off-set, and get a nominal COAL of 1.125, same as I have been using for the Extreme 124 gr plated RN. These RMR bullets are .584 in length (based on average of 5 randomly-selected bullets), compared to .583 for the Extreme, so .001 longer (is "smidge" or "skosh" the correct terminology for measurements of one one-thousandth of an inch). Hodgdon data has 1.150 COAL for Berry's 124 gr HBRN TP, with starting load of 3.9 gr and max load of 4.4 gr HP-38. Per previous discussion in this thread, I understand that both Extreme 124 gr RN and these RMR 124 gr RN are shorter than the Berry's HBRN, so I do not need to move the load window even though I will be using a shorter COAL, correct?
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Personally I feel you are ok with the Blue Bullets.
You are probably good with the RMR's too but I would start my ladder at 3.8 up to 4.2 and see how it goes. That's just me.
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One other question I forgot to ask: should I be concerned if it takes 10-15 whacks with the kinetic hammer to take apart a dummy round? To date, I've been sorting my empty brass and loading with only brand of brass at a time. So far I've used only Blazer Brass and FC brass for all of my reloads. Today, I used Winchester brass for the first time to work up some dummy rounds for plunk testing the BB and RMR bullets and setting the OAL on the press, but I noticed when trying to take the dummy rounds apart, it took me 15 or 16 whacks with the kinetic hammer for all 20 or 25 dummy rounds I had made. Previously, using FC/ Blazer Brass and Extreme or RMR FMJ bullets, it would only take me 2 or 3 whacks. I did not change the crimp setting (.377) from what I have been using for my previous 1600 rounds, nor did I suddenly lose 75% of my arm strength, so my first thought was maybe it had something to do with the BB and new RMR bullets. However, I just loaded an Extreme bullet into the Winchester brass just to check, and it still took me 10 whacks to remove the bullet, so I'm thinking it's the brass.
Is this an issue, or just a minor annoyance? Is it common to see different types of brass behave differently when it comes to pulling bullets?
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should I be concerned if it takes 10-15 whacks with the kinetic hammer to take apart a dummy round?
Yes, you're going to want to work on your lats, triceps and core. I'd recommend overhead press, deadlifts, and maybe dumbbell skull-crushers to start out. ;)
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:)
WIN brass is harder, thicker or whatever. It's my go-to choice for brass. Seats well, good neck tension and allows a lot of reloads before it shows signs of being tired.
Without your good methodical loading learning curve, I once loaded 300 rds that had to be "hammered". I learned to do it in two hits with Win brass.
It did increase my hammer blaster rating up to Master Blaster. Your anvil is important. Mine is 4x4 treated post, standing on end and mounted to a 1/4" thick steel plate. ;D
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Shot off my test-ladder of 125 gr RN Blue Bullets - nominal 1.110 COAL, WSPP, Winchester brass, 5 rounds each at 3.8, 3.9, 4.0, 4.1, and 4.2 gr of HP-38. I say "nominal" COAL, because I had more variation (+/- .007) then what I have been getting for the hundreds of X-treme bullets and FC and Blazer Brass (usually +/- .003) rounds I have loaded.
Anyway, all functioned and fired fine. I was more concerned about function then accuracy, but they all seemed to have about same felt recoil and accuracy shooting free style at 7 yards.
Hodgdon load data for 125 gr LCN says 1,009 FPS for 3.9 gr at 1.125 COAL and 1,085 for 4.4 gr. I need 1,000 FPS for PF and am loading a bit shorter, so maybe 4.0 gr? 4.1 gr? I will load up 25 at 4.0 and 4.1 gr and see if one is more accurate for me than the other.
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Cannot wait to see how it goes. I have some rounds loaded up at 3.9 grains just no time to shoot.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
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Similarly, plunk testing the RMR 124 gr plated RN revealed 1.141 COAL would plunk, spin, and fall out, so I subtract .015 off-set, and get a nominal COAL of 1.125, same as I have been using for the Extreme 124 gr plated RN. These RMR bullets are .584 in length (based on average of 5 randomly-selected bullets), compared to .583 for the Extreme, so .001 longer (is "smidge" or "skosh" the correct terminology for measurements of one one-thousandth of an inch). Hodgdon data has 1.150 COAL for Berry's 124 gr HBRN TP, with starting load of 3.9 gr and max load of 4.4 gr HP-38. Per previous discussion in this thread, I understand that both Extreme 124 gr RN and these RMR 124 gr RN are shorter than the Berry's HBRN, so I do not need to move the load window even though I will be using a shorter COAL, correct?
Since the 2 bullets (RMR and Xtreme) are so similar in length and composition, you'd use the same load range you used on the Xtreme. The load range we (you, us, all) derived for the Xtreme has worked out well, so don't change it. You want to move from fact to fact. With so little difference in the 2 plated bullets you have there, it doesn't make sense to go back to the published data with that really long 1.150" OAL.
Of course the first thing you want to do with the RMR is shoot a ladder of 5-8 rounds each using that load range and 1.125" OAL. To prove that the Xtreme load range when used on the RMR bullets is indeed a "fact". Starting load covers up a host of errors.
;)
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One other question I forgot to ask: should I be concerned if it takes 10-15 whacks with the kinetic hammer to take apart a dummy round?
Only if you end up looking like this...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/A4VRNs2Va11DcHXFYXXRYfIp93nN5lNbYvPJ8hgjpLDeAVfIbYa1Bki10ZSx0enkzBJSHDHXOaLD4q9v6ldPAFMYaF0Tp-X7M-U3GBVEIDfdq37mIkvaYpeEwL4y-GcOZ0deh1oMHz-DINQCW8oT1P6MdN3L-2km_9fGAxJCthVIzv6zNSbEoVpUXSKwsfsA-UZzOH3-8-_L_je_eCZsnnm-YNmuf3hPYrcATJA0h8DYr4x6-lvSZ6izHawn78PW53lFqzVhRRO2eqJ-pr31Bn1OUrlYkgfCMC5iDe1c2cpveqaInHSC8rCZivkw0qE0Ben4m7ZjLB6y7M9Tng-0GQs5y5JN9PZOpH5SwoWrKMHhm3KSkjHCXO7yKbFAZSAOm5L2invdcIy8ghcBJMpFIvV4rNWgmxEHIlc2bo4zSLw6Opd1vuPPbda5y7ooq-yaVhPBLCqPnAEfKiZbR2t3GW2KzZjUHI5sxeVc1cUxPLzhPc00QIKY7MPP4cSjsEaKOtaUQRhDXm8_sTU5YLZJKbUyCBW_aXcHyeaFIr3KJ_Ge_MqXfB9IdW8HjcYkA8093CSBBgxRbwPmPySr8WOmkq3iEPCs03iRK4HB9V3Xf_01mY4PgN1fJkehuHVe1B4Oxu7hu2DQkAmrDKfXSKX3LXRsqr956wobeRw2X5VAKA=w355-h246-no)
O0
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Queue the speling Nazi responses
That's not a misspelling, it's simply "fake news".
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Shot off my test-ladder of 125 gr RN Blue Bullets - nominal 1.110 COAL, WSPP, Winchester brass, 5 rounds each at 3.8, 3.9, 4.0, 4.1, and 4.2 gr of HP-38. I say "nominal" COAL, because I had more variation (+/- .007) then what I have been getting for the hundreds of X-treme bullets and FC and Blazer Brass (usually +/- .003) rounds I have loaded.
Anyway, all functioned and fired fine. I was more concerned about function then accuracy, but they all seemed to have about same felt recoil and accuracy shooting free style at 7 yards.
At 0.1gr increments you won't be able to tell any difference. So what did the brass tell you ?
Hodgdon load data for 125 gr LCN says 1,009 FPS for 3.9 gr at 1.125 COAL and 1,085 for 4.4 gr. I need 1,000 FPS for PF and am loading a bit shorter, so maybe 4.0 gr? 4.1 gr? I will load up 25 at 4.0 and 4.1 gr and see if one is more accurate for me than the other.
I thought you had the Lyman #49 manual ? Why do you keep referring to the Hodgdon data when you have a load manual ? A lot of the Winchester and IMR load data Hodgdon is peddling is almost 20 years old.
;)
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I thought you had the Lyman #49 manual ? Why do you keep referring to the Hodgdon data when you have a load manual ? A lot of the Winchester and IMR load data Hodgdon is peddling is almost 20 years old.
Thanks for the feedback on the RMR!
As for why I keep referencing Hodgdon data rather than Lyman manual ... in this case, the only data Lyman has for 125 gr bullets is JHP. It has data for 120 gr cast bullet, but not using Win 231. I'm still too much of a newb to try and interpolate from that data to the components I have, so I've been sticking with the Hodgdon data that may be out of date, but at least more closely reflects the components I am using.
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Shot off 15 rounds of the 125 gr RN Blue Bullets, each loaded at 4.0 gr and 4.1 gr HP-38, 1.110 nominal COAL, WSPP, Win brass. Both seemed a bit snappier than the 124 gr RN Extreme bullets I have been using at 1.125 COAL and 4.2 or 4.3 gr HP-38.
Targets were at 7 yards, shooting about 2 rounds/second, standing, free-style. Results were a toss-up.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/373/31792870314_3cbd923a65_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QrqLGs)01292017 BB TEST (https://flic.kr/p/QrqLGs) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
I'll probably just pick 4.0 gr and load up the rest of my 200 blue bullets to shoot my normal training routine and see how the results compare to the Extreme bullets.
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Your Blue Bullets are snappier because they're traveling faster, and higher muzzle energy equals higher recoil energy. ;)
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Finished loading the last 100 of my 250 test run of Blue Bullets 125 gr RN last night ? nominal 1.11 COAL, 4.0 gr HP-38, WSPP. Still getting a pretty wide variance in COAL ? from 1.1125 down to 1.05 (edit: meant to type 1.105). Aside from some blue-tinged fingerprints, I haven?t had any problems loading these bullets once I increased the belling just a smidge. Have not seen any leading in my barrel, just a trace of ?smurf poop? that cleans up easily with a patch. I?m going to set 50 or so of these rounds aside and save them for a future shoot-off against the Extreme 124 gr RN that I have stockpiled and the RMR 124 gr plated RN that I am going to turn to next. Would be nice if they are comparatively accurate, as the Blue Bullets are about $.01 cheaper/round than the RMR plated, and $.03 cheaper/round than the Extreme.
Now that I am closing in on 2,000 hand-loads and am a grizzled reloading vet (ha!), I have developed a love-hate relationship with my Dillon SDB. Love it when it?s working well, but hate it when the finicky primer system works itself out of synch. I spent three or four hours this week with the primer system disassembled to trouble-shoot it. Finally figured out that that the blue plastic tip on the primer magazine tube was not completely pushed on (apparently the last .01 inch, which is not detectable to the eye or touch, really matters). My experience has been that once it is set up correctly, the primer system will hum along for several hundred rounds, then work itself out of alignment. The frustrating thing is that there isn?t one cause or fix ? to date, every time the primer system has gone out of whack, it?s been for a different reason. I?ve gone through four of the blue plastic tips for the primer system so far, as they are designed to rip apart if they become misaligned, so roughly one every 500 rounds. Fortunately, the blue plastic tips are inexpensive, but the lost time in figuring out the cause is very frustrating. Hopefully I?ve learned all of the likely causes and can trouble-shoot primer problems faster going forward.
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COAL ? from 1.1125 down to 1.05
That is WAY too wide a spread. Something is wrong.
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COAL ? from 1.1125 down to 1.05
That is WAY too wide a spread. Something is wrong.
Agreed.
He needs to fix that.
eta...wondering if that's a typo, and should read 1.105
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Are you running the press without the brass retaining pin at the seating station?
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Gah! You are right -- that's a typo on COAL. Should be 1.105!
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Gah! You are right -- that's a typo on COAL. Should be 1.105!
Still...it's excessive and you need to tighten things up.
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COAL ? from 1.113 down to 1.105
That is WAY too wide a spread. Something is wrong.
? It's only ~0.008" so he's closing in.
? On the primer issue...
? Call Dillon CS and describe your issue. At least you'll get some new tips.
? Run a cleaning patch down through the primer tube, just like a gun barrel.
? Each time you install the primer tube you have to slide (not drop !) the tube into place, then rotate the tube until it engages the flange on the end of the tube and drops another 1/8 inch. THEN you can screw on the knurled cap.
? Get a 45ACP brass and a 147gr bullet. Put the bullet inside the brass. Press the brass onto the top of the black Dillon primer follower rod.
Hope this helps. ;)
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COAL ? from 1.113 down to 1.105
That is WAY too wide a spread. Something is wrong.
? It's only ~0.008" so he's closing in.
<snip
The numbers initially presented indicated a ~.060 variance.
He was waaaaaaaay off. ;D
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COAL ? from 1.113 down to 1.105
That is WAY too wide a spread. Something is wrong.
? It's only ~0.008" so he's closing in.
? On the primer issue...
? Call Dillon CS and describe your issue. At least you'll get some new tips.
? Run a cleaning patch down through the primer tube, just like a gun barrel.
? Each time you install the primer tube you have to slide (not drop !) the tube into place, then rotate the tube until it engages the flange on the end of the tube and drops another 1/8 inch. THEN you can screw on the knurled cap.
? Get a 45ACP brass and a 147gr bullet. Put the bullet inside the brass. Press the brass onto the top of the black Dillon primer follower rod.
Hope this helps. ;)
Thanks, Wobbly, good tips, I will give them a try.
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I can't believe you're still here !
O0
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FWIW, *with mixed range brass* plus or minus .005 seems normal to me. I can pretty much tell you about what the OAL will be by how much pressure it takes to seat the bullet. Not all brass is created the same. <shrug> Now, if I sort the brass, I can set it, and OAL will be very close.
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FWIW, *with mixed range brass* plus or minus .005 seems normal to me. I can pretty much tell you about what the OAL will be by how much pressure it takes to seat the bullet. Not all brass is created the same. <shrug> Now, if I sort the brass, I can set it, and OAL will be very close.
Yeah, with sorted Blazer or Federal brass and X-treme bullets, I'm normally with plus or minus .003. The Win brass and Blue Bullets results resulted in much higher deviation for me.
I just did a load of 200 rounds mixed PMC, CBC, and RP brass, and as you say, my deviation was higher than than with sorted brass.
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I've settled into RMR 124 gr RN plated bullets, WSP, 4.2 gr HP-38, 1.125 OAL as my current standard round for now, while I experiment here and there with a few other bullets. Closing in on close to 4,000 reloads since I started this last fall. Have loaded close to a thousand of these, and they have loaded and shot with no problems, and are certainly accurate enough for skill level and purpose (IDPA).
I picked up two pounds of WSF, and have been experimenting with that powder and 115 gr FMJ from RMR, 1.120 OAL, S&B primers. Ran a ladder, and two test batches of 50 rounds each at 5.1 gr and 5.3 gr of WSF. A little snappier than 124 gr bullets, but seemed just as accurate, and the perceived recoil difference evaporated after the first couple of rounds. I'm going to load up the rest of my 500 round test batch at 5.2 gr and 5.3 gr WSF and see if they would be acceptable as a back-up to my standard RMR 124 gr RN.
Next up, I would like to try out some of the RMR 124 gr "Hard Core" Hollow Point rounds with WSF. These bullets plunked very short in my SP01 Shadow barrel: ten dummy rounds ranged from 1.0585 up 1.09 OAL, with 1.0645 to 1.0655 being the most common. Based on those results subtracting .010 - .015, I'm looking at an OAL of ~1.055. These bullets are .555 long, so seating depth would be .75 + .555 - 1.055 = .250. RMR states that their "Hard Core" plated can be loaded to mid-range jacketed, so looking at load data for something comparable (124 gr JHP with WSF), I see past threads in this forum on Precision Delta 124 gr JHP, 1.09 OAL, load ladder of 4.4 - 4.8 gr WSF (seating depth = .243); Montana Gold 124 gr JHP at 1.065 OAL with 4.7 or 4.8 gr WSF (seating depth .264). I haven't been able to find any WSF data with 124 gr JHP in any of the manuals that I have access to, but did some find some data for HP-38/Win 231: Lyman manual has Sierra 125 gr JHP, 1.075 OAL (seating depth = .222), 3.9 - 4.4 gr Win 231; 124 gr HAP, 1.069 OAL, 2.8 - 3.3 gr HP-38 (seating depth = .253).
Based on these comparable data points, I've convinced myself that 1.055 OAL isn't too deep, since I see other 124 gr JHP with very similar (or even deeper) seating depths. Looking for some confirmation/second opinions on a good load window: I'm thinking 4.3 - 4.7 gr WSF, working up in .1 gr increments. Am I thinking about this the right way? Anything I've overlooked? Does that seem like a reasonable load window?
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Baldrage I too am a new reloaded with about 2500 rounds all using HP-38. Did you see any difference with the WSF as far as cleaner, smokier or any other differences. Just curious as to why you chose that powder.
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Baldrage I too am a new reloaded with about 2500 rounds all using HP-38. Did you see any difference with the WSF as far as cleaner, smokier or any other differences. Just curious as to why you chose that powder.
I wanted to try WSF because many of the tribal elders here and at Brian Enos forums sing its praises. Wobbly, in particular, once referred to it as ?poor man?s Vhita Vouri?. Also because I wanted to have at least one alternative powder to HP-38/Win 231 established for when the next great ammo shortage occurs.
I have not yet done a side-by-side comparison (same bullet, same cases, same primer) of WSF against HP-38/Win 231, so I can?t say whether it is cleaner, reduces felt recoil, is more accurate, emits unicorn farts, etc. On my to-do list is to load a WSF version of my ?standard? RMR 124 gr plated RN load and do a side-by-side comparison.
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Baldrage I too am a new reloaded with about 2500 rounds all using HP-38. Did you see any difference with the WSF as far as cleaner, smokier or any other differences. Just curious as to why you chose that powder.
I wanted to try WSF because many of the tribal elders here at Brian Enos forums sing its praises. Wobbly, in particular, once referred to it as ?poor man?s Vhita Vouri?. Also because I wanted to have at least one alternative powder to HP-38/Win 231 established for when the next great ammo shortage occurs.
I have not yet done a side-by-side comparison (same bullet, same cases, same primer) of WSF against HP-38/Win 231, so I can?t say whether it is cleaner, reduces felt recoil, is more accurate, emits unicorn farts, etc. On my to-do list is to load a WSF version of my ?standard? RMR 124 gr plated RN load and do a side-by-side comparison.
Here at Brian Enos forums? :o
I guess if I don't even know where I am I really don't know siccum.
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D'oh! Word missing ... I meant to type "here AND at BENOS forum"!
I will edit to add in "AND"
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Thanks for the clarification. ;D
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I can't believe you're still here !
O0
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Where?
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Actually I think you'll like WSF. It meters excellently (as good or better than 231) and burns very cleanly. Let us know how you feel about it.
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I loaded up 50 rounds of 115 gr RMR RN with WSF at 5.2 and 5.2 gr. I also loaded up a ladder of 124 gr RMR RN from 4.4 - 5.0 grs. I will report back after my next range trip.
I would still greatly appreciate some confirmation/advice on my planned load window (4.3 - 4.7 gr WSF) for 124 gr RMR plated HP, per post above. This will be my first attempt at loading HPs, so would like to hear whether there is some consideration I have missed.
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WSF was the first powder I used when I first started when I could not find any 231. When I had the chance to try 231, I still prefer WSF
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I loaded up 50 rounds of 115 gr RMR RN with WSF at 5.2 and 5.2 gr.
So how many did you load at 5.2 and how many at 5.2 ? O0
This will be my first attempt at loading HPs, so would like to hear whether there is some consideration I have missed.
Looks about right, but we need an OAL to be sure.
I'm loading PD 124gr HP at 1.100" with 4.7gr WSF.
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Looks about right, but we need an OAL to be sure.
I'm loading PD 124gr HP at 1.100" with 4.7gr WSF.
Wobbly, as stated a few posts back: "These bullets plunked very short in my SP01 Shadow barrel: ten dummy rounds ranged from 1.0585 up 1.09 OAL, with 1.0645 to 1.0655 being the most common. Based on those results subtracting .010 - .015, I'm looking at an OAL of ~1.055. These bullets are .555 long, so seating depth would be .75 + .555 - 1.055 = .250."
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I loaded up 50 rounds of 115 gr RMR RN with WSF at 5.2 and 5.2 gr.
So how many did you load at 5.2 and how many at 5.2 ? O0
D'oh! I've got to stop posting from my blackberry!
Supposed to read 50 @ 5.2 gr and 50 @ 5.3 gr.
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Wobbly, as stated a few posts back: ... I'm looking at an OAL of ~1.055.
My only point is this... auto pistol load info isn't complete without an OAL. So you're asking for advice, but requiring the reader to go back and dig through 14 pages. That's in the same camp as a "gift" that has requirements tagged on.
Happy Birthday! .... but you have to wash my dog. O0
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Sorry, definitely not my intent to make anyone work to provide advice. I will re-state my request here, with all the relevant data in one post.
Firearm
? My CZ pistol/rifle model is: SP01 Shadow Custom
? The caliber of my CZ is: 9 mm
? My CZ has the following changes: 11.5# hammer spring, extended firing pin
? I use this CZ in the following ways: IDPA
? I want ammo accurate at: 25 yards at power factor 130
Components
? I've been reloading for months/years: 6 months, closing in on 5,000 rounds reloaded
? Fully describe the maker, weight, and type bullet: Rocky Mountain Reloading 124 gr "Hard Core" Hollow Point plated bullet
? Powder: WSF; 4.3 - 4.7 gr???
? Primer: Winchester SPP
? My Cartridge Over-All Length is: plunk tested at 1.065, so 1.055 nominal COAL
Reloading Equipment
? Press brand and type: Dillon SDB
? Do you have access to a chronograph ? No
Other Info
? Exactly what is your load data and where did you get it ? RMR states that their "Hard Core" plated bullets can be loaded to mid-range jacketed, so looking at load data for something comparable (124 gr JHP with WSF, seating depth .250), I see past threads in this forum on Precision Delta 124 gr JHP, 1.09 OAL, load ladder of 4.4 - 4.8 gr WSF (seating depth = .243); Montana Gold 124 gr JHP at 1.065 OAL with 4.7 or 4.8 gr WSF (seating depth .264). I haven't been able to find any WSF data with 124 gr JHP in any of the manuals that I have access to, but did some find some data for HP-38/Win 231: Lyman manual has Sierra 125 gr JHP, 1.075 OAL (seating depth = .222), 3.9 - 4.4 gr Win 231; 124 gr HAP, 1.069 OAL, 2.8 - 3.3 gr HP-38 (seating depth = .253).
Problem Area:
Looking for advice interpolating load data to develop a safe load ladder at this very short COAL (1.055). My best estimate is 4.3 - 4.7 gr WSF, at .1 gr increments. I would greatly appreciate confirmation that this is a conservative load ladder or advice on how to better interpolate data and come up with something better.
Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom!
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First of all, forget any type comparison to 231 or any other powder. You can't draw any conclusions or parallels from that.
You can use the velocity/ load table in this thread (http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=83607.0) to develop your own data once you have a chrono. That's about the most help I can give right now.
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OK, I'm ready for the next bit of news from Baldrage.
;D
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;D O0!
Patience is a virtue.......in reloading. :D
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Holy cats, this should be required reading for all who start down the reloading path!
Baldrage?s log has touched on almost every one of my concerns as a newbie reloader with a Square Deal and the answers were fantastic. Thanks for the effort put into this thread.
Cheers
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Yeah, I thought it was a "novel" approach to a thread when he started, but it really has worked out quite well. And as a resource for new reloaders, it's a jewel. Be sure and also study the "stickies" at the top of the forum if you're new to reloading. Lots of help there too.
Now if we could only get Baldrage back on-line ! ;D
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Glad to hear someone has found this thread useful!
I'm still around ... haven't updated this thread in a while because I've found a load that works for and have been sticking with it (Precision Delta 124 gr JHP, 3.9 gr HP-38/Win 231). Thanks to the wealth of knowledge contained in this forum, I've safely reloaded over 6,000 9mm rounds in the last year, and had only one single round that failed to fire (I think it was just a bad primer from the factory, as it was a total dud).
nstg8r -- if you have any questions as you get started, either about something you've read here, about using the Square Deal, or reloading in general, please don't hesitate to shoot me a PM or post here.
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Glad to hear someone has found this thread useful!
I'm still around ... haven't updated this thread in a while because I've found a load that works for and have been sticking with it (Precision Delta 124 gr JHP, 3.9 gr HP-38/Win 231).
What OAL you are loading PD 124gr JHP?
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Thanks guys. I?ll have questions I know it, some are rattling around in my head now - just not ready to verbalize them. Usually they wake me up at odd hours during the night. :o
I?ve got a bit more refurbishing to do on the Square D yet. I?d better get at it before Christmas takes over.
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I?ll have questions I know it, some are rattling around in my head now - just not ready to verbalize them. Usually they wake me up at odd hours during the night. :o
Not to worry. An attendant is on duty 24/7. Type away !
;D
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What OAL you are loading PD 124gr JHP?
Based on plunk test results with my SP01 Shadow, I am using 1.10 OAL for the PD 124 gr JHP.
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Based on plunk test results with my SP01 Shadow, I am using 1.10 OAL for the PD 124 gr JHP.
See... http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0
I also use 1.100" in my SP-01 for that same bullet. $89/1000 when you buy 2000 or more. Very hard to beat the price or accuracy.
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What I did over Christmas vacation ... finally got around to installing a DIY spent-primer system for my Dillon SDB. Have reloaded about 400 rounds or so since I put it together, and it works great. I figure that 1 gal OJ jug will hold four or five thousand spent primers.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4744/27894053129_5e369af10e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JuUjbv)SDB spent primer (https://flic.kr/p/JuUjbv) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
Also did a top-to-bottom cleaning and lubrication of the SDB, and cleaned off my bench -- long over-due.
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Playing around with some new loads and will hopefully get a chance to try these out this week:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4755/40212205921_a0eb8fb5df_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24gq4Rc)Feb 2018 reloads (https://flic.kr/p/24gq4Rc) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
On the left, SNS 125 gr CN. These have a nice narrow profile to fit in our CZs, I was able to plunk at 1.125 or thereabouts. Made up a ladder of Win 231 from 3.9 - 4.2 gr.
On the right, my first-ever .40 reloads: RMR 165 gr RNFP, 1.125 OAL, WSF 6.1, 6.2, and 6.3 gr.
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FWIW, the SNS 125 gr Conical Nose work very nicely for anyone in the market for coated bullets. The profile is long and narrow -- plunked out to 1.125 - 1.130 in my SP01 Shadow. Smokier than jacketed bullets, but not excessive, and the "burnt wire" smell common to coated bullets was much fainter than my previous experience with Blue Bullets. I finished up my 100-bullet sample pack and will be ordering more. Pic below is just from testing function and recoil; off-hand at only 7 yards, but accurate enough to merit testing at longer ranges against my PD 124 gr JHPs.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4781/26839619958_f0e8ace3dd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GTJ4Wf)SNS 125 vs RMR 124 (https://flic.kr/p/GTJ4Wf) by baldrage (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78983440@N07/), on Flickr
I also loaded some ladders of SNS 180 gr RNFP with Titegroup and WSF, playing around with ".40 lite" loads. Recoil with 3.0 gr TG was very soft, somewhere between .22 and 9mm. Unfortunately, TG is so dirty that my slide won't lock back after about 50 rounds with TG. The WSF in 4.2 - 4.6 gr range was promising, recoil about equal to 9mm. I ordered 500 more 180 gr RNFP bullets and will try out some additional WSF and Win 231 loads.
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Blue bullets is a different coating entirely. Shouldn?t smell the same. I?d be interested for you to put the calipers or micrometer on those. I put a micrometer on mine, and they were a little undersized ? between .355 and .356. Should be .356.
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You might want to invest a few $ in a strong mount after a few hundred rounds sitting in front of your SD you may find standing works a lot better. Standing also lets you see whats going on and you can keep an eye on the powder level of each case. I have been reloading for over 40 years and now have 5 progressive machines all mounted on quick change plates about 40" above the floor. Good luck and have fun making accurate quality ammo with your new Dillon SD.
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Blue bullets is a different coating entirely. Shouldn?t smell the same. I?d be interested for you to put the calipers or micrometer on those. I put a micrometer on mine, and they were a little undersized ? between .355 and .356. Should be .356.
Yes, I distinctly remember measuring my sample pack of blue bullets back when I was first getting started, and mine also measured .355. I also went back to my early notes and confirmed.
All the SNS were right on at .356.
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You might want to invest a few $ in a strong mount after a few hundred rounds sitting in front of your SD you may find standing works a lot better. Standing also lets you see whats going on and you can keep an eye on the powder level of each case. I have been reloading for over 40 years and now have 5 progressive machines all mounted on quick change plates about 40" above the floor. Good luck and have fun making accurate quality ammo with your new Dillon SD.
Hi, thanks for commenting. Yes, I stand when I'm reloading. The stool back there in the picture is for when I'm doing other stuff on my bench -- cleaning pistol, plunking rounds, etc.
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Blue bullets is a different coating entirely. Shouldn?t smell the same. I?d be interested for you to put the calipers or micrometer on those. I put a micrometer on mine, and they were a little undersized ? between .355 and .356. Should be .356.
Yes, I distinctly remember measuring my sample pack of blue bullets back when I was first getting started, and mine also measured .355. I also went back to my early notes and confirmed.
All the SNS were right on at .356.
Gotcha. Most of my SNS have been on at .356, but my 125gr Cone Nose were not.