The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: chrisofpa on September 22, 2016, 11:48:59 PM
-
Hello again, I have been dwelling in the background for awhile now, my last post was probably 2 years ago when I purchased my VZ 2008. Anyway, I went to pick up a a Daniel Defense AR-15 at my local firearm dealer and he had a D-Technik VZ-58 hanging on the wall, it was a trade in and he wanted $800 for it so I bought it. I knew D-Technik was one of the imported VZ-58's with mil-spec parts, the one I always wanted but I never seen one locally for such a good price. I know a little about these rifles, like the barrel is CHF/chrome lined etc but I wanted to learn some more about the rifle and inquire about upgrades.
First, this is a D-Technik but I noticed people call them CSA's (Czech Small Arms), is D-Technik now called CSA? Second, does someone have a spec list for this rifle? It's not really important but I would like to know the little details about my rifle. Third, does this specific VZ-58 variant have any weak points or parts that should be upgraded? I heard these rifles have a plastic trigger group which I am not too pleased with, that's something I would like to upgrade, what parts would you guys recommend?
Forth, I noticed this rifle has a thread protector welded to the front sight post and the bayonet lug has been ground off. The bayonet lug isn't a big deal but I want to add a muzzle device to this rifle, I am hoping this rifle is like my Yugo M77, that if I grind off the weld the thread protector will come off and I will find usable threads. It looks like a working retention pin is already in place. Worse case scenario, can I find a replacement front sight post in the same color as my rifle? I also noticed some red stuff on the base of my front sight post, I am kinda concerned it's not a factory thing, I am concerned it's red loctite....
Next, I really want to add an optic to this rifle, I see on Zahal they make an optics rail/mount for this rifle, is that something my gunsmith can add to this rifle without issue? I really want to put a Meprolight optic on this rifle, the one with fiber optic/tritium powered dot. I would only consider this option since I love the beaver barf furniture. Last, can you guys recommend a good place to pick up quality magazines, sight adjustment tool and cleaning kit? Ideally someone that charges a reasonable price.
My plans for this rifle is to make it into a fighting rifle, so quality/durability is important to me.
-
One additional question, what's a good trade in price on my VZ-2008? I added an original beaver barf stock to it and took the folder off.
-
$800 is a good and fair price. You can probably get $500-600 for your VZ2008 these days depending on condition. With a quite probable post-election panic, 1.5-2x that amount is quite possible. If you can afford to keep your VZ2008, then do so. Make it truck/trunk/trainer gun, etc. Or sell it to a family member, etc. I try not to sell guns unless they're just plumb unreliable and I don't have time or interest in troubleshooting -- also if standardizing and dropping caliber/weapon system as I like spare parts and mags both stacked deep, but then that money is going right back into firearms and components...
Main thing with the Dtechs are that they're probably missing the bayo lug on the fsb, and they have the puddle welded muzzle extension. If you can only have one muzzle device, I'd personally go w/ the special forces as it's both a flash hider and a brake/comp. For fsb, I'd personally look for a surplus open eared one instead of the new production closed loop one that Czechpoint sells -- your gun however so personal preference. (Actually reading further in your post, you note both of these features...) So to your question, search the forum here for pics. There are puddle welds and threads will need cleaned and probably re-chased, but yes they are there. Red is paint from the factory to mark the factory zero location.
Rear railed top cover, I have two KingGun ones left in my classified (also have a few Spec Forces Brakes too if interested), and the Zahal ones cost 50% more. All Zahal stuff is outrageously priced actually. KingGun ones require minor fitting as they are made to fit tight to ensure repeatability when removing and reinstalling.
Trigger for 922r see CNC Warrior/Bonesteel for a metal fcg. If you google Dtechnic 922r or search here (or search here via google: "site:czfirearms.us/index.php?board=67.0 search words"), you'll find the full list of 922r parts...
-
$800 is a good and fair price. You can probably get $500-600 for your VZ2008 these days depending on condition. With a quite probable post-election panic, 1.5-2x that amount is quite possible. If you can afford to keep your VZ2008, then do so. Make it truck/trunk/trainer gun, etc. Or sell it to a family member, etc. I try not to sell guns unless they're just plumb unreliable and I don't have time or interest in troubleshooting -- also if standardizing and dropping caliber/weapon system as I like spare parts and mags both stacked deep, but then that money is going right back into firearms and components...
Main thing with the Dtechs are that they're probably missing the bayo lug on the fsb, and they have the puddle welded muzzle extension. If you can only have one muzzle device, I'd personally go w/ the special forces as it's both a flash hider and a brake/comp. For fsb, I'd personally look for a surplus open eared one instead of the new production closed loop one that Czechpoint sells -- your gun however so personal preference. (Actually reading further in your post, you note both of these features...) So to your question, search the forum here for pics. There are puddle welds and threads will need cleaned and probably re-chased, but yes they are there. Red is paint from the factory to mark the factory zero location.
Rear railed top cover, I have two KingGun ones left in my classified (also have a few Spec Forces Brakes too if interested), and the Zahal ones cost 50% more. All Zahal stuff is outrageously priced actually. KingGun ones require minor fitting as they are made to fit tight to ensure repeatability when removing and reinstalling.
Trigger for 922r see CNC Warrior/Bonesteel for a metal fcg. If you google Dtechnic 922r or search here (or search here via google: "site:czfirearms.us/index.php?board=67.0 search words"), you'll find the full list of 922r parts...
Thanks for sharing that info, maybe I will sit on the VZ 2008. Main reason I am selling the 2008 is it's kinda redundant (In my mind) to have two rifles that are setup exactly the same and I really want to use it's sale to fund a PTR-91. Now, if I could setup the 2008 as a DMR (1-6 power optic and a bi-pod) I would consider keeping it since it would serve a different role, I am unsure if a 1-6 power can be mounted on a rifle like this. I am not really a big fan of selling firearms anyway, in fact this would be the first firearm I ever planned on selling.
I can live without a bayonet lug but my personal requirement is for a muzzle device, I would prefer to leave the FSB alone if I can attach a muzzle device without issue. I did a little research after making this post and it seems the thread protector is a barrel extention and if it's removed the barrel is less than 16 inches, an ATF no-no. To make the situation worse, CSA won't remove it and permanently install a muzzle device of your choice. I am kinda concerned my gunsmith won't do the job now considering the situation. I would have to find someone who can properly install a muzzle device in a proper fashion as not to upset the ATF.
I will look into this "King Gun" rail cover, I always had concerns with dust cover mounted optics, I always felt with AK's and 58's the receiver mounted rail was the most secure way of mounting an optic. I might take you up on your items once I do some research.
Thanks.
-
If you purchased the VZ2008 when it was super cheap a couple years back, you purchased it for $400 or less, including a couple mags. So it's true price was basically the same as you'd pay for a well-used VZ58 surplus parts kit today ($300) -- or more if you account for the price of the intact receiver and barrel...
I like redundancy, especially for more unique weapon systems like the VZ58. Vs spare parts, your VZ2008 also functions...
Yes, you can setup a VZ58 as a DMR, but you'd need to run a fixed magnification optic most likely so as to not have cases hitting it on ejection.
Replacing the FSB is a $30-40 part and 15 minute repair, and it allows bipods, bayonets, and FAB actually makes a flashlight mount that attaches there as well. Since you have to have permanently affixed muzzle device, I would just have gunsmith change out fsb when pinning and spot welding muzzle device. One of those pay twice deals where you're ahead to just bite the bullet, especially if this is a "forever" gun.
The benefit of special forces brake is that the inner portion works as flashider and can be used alone. The outer sleeve is a brake, and a very balanced one at that, that can be removed and reinstalled even if the inner portion is permanently affixed in place.
It's not a violation of any law to remove and replace a barrel extension. You just have to permanently affix a new muzzle device in place when removing the existing one. Any component gunsmith will do this and will do so without reservation. If you remove the extension and take it to the range and otherwise use it/don't proactively and deliberately comply with the intent of the law -- that's when you can get in trouble... Don't spook yourself. Just like FFL transfers, it's sometimes a painful process that on the surface sort of makes you feel like you're doing something wrong, but you aren't...
The quality of dustcover mounts between AKs and the available VZ58s are quite different. VZ58 railed top covers are much more robust and rigid than any AK I've seen, including my Galils which all have rear irons sights mounted to top covers... VZ58 ones all clamp to milled receiver in various fashion, are milled or cast rather than stamped, and rails are integral to the rest of the topcover. Czech engineering is solid.
The main advantage of the PTR91s is super cheap mags, still sub $5. However, if you dent the side of the upper receiver, the weapon won't function. For DMR, the HK91/G3s have pretty much the worst recoil of all .308 battle rifles, which isn't great for precision and also isn't great for optics holding zero... Mounting optics is also a pain even if you opt for a railed version of the PTR91.
For about the same price you get one of the Aero precision.308 with no furniture from Brownells, or build your own for less... My cool factor .308 is the FAL but I'm delaying purchasing that until after an AR variant in a precision/DMR setup. I think I've decided on the Rock River version though since it takes FAL mags rather than the SR25s... I'm not that committed to .308 ARs beyond the specific precision/DMR use case... Otherwise, I believe FALs or Galils/.308 AKs to be better -- more reliable and more robust -- general purpose .308 battle rifles...
-
One additional question, what's a good trade in price on my VZ-2008? I added an original beaver barf stock to it and took the folder off.
If you plan on trading it into a dealer, don't expect more than $300 for it.
If you sell it yourself you may get $550-650. Personally I would keep it as a backup or for spare parts
-
If it's not already drilled and tapped and had an optic side rail mounted, as long as it's a D-Technik or CSA mfg. rifle, you can send it to Czechpoint and have that work done for @ $80, which would be preferable to a top cover or hand guard mounted optic:
https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/receiver-side-rail-installed?l=4
Hell of a deal!
-
preferable to a top cover or hand guard mounted optic
Don't agree on that part -- notably heavier than railed top covers or railed handguards that also assist with barrel cooling/reducing handguardheat, changes the sight plane and cheek weld, rear mount red dot limits field of view, adds unnecessary holes and according weakness to the receiver, and prevents the installation of ambi safeties. And these just the drawbacks that immediately come to mind...
-
Thinking further -- if wanting max accuracy in 7.62x39, the CZ527 in bolt action is very appealing and on my buy list...
Also some folks have done sniper/DMR/accurized SKSes relatively cheaply and that would be a pretty cost effective platform for that type of modification as well.
If starting in .308 clean with a limited budget and wanting max accuracy, take a look at the Tikka bolt actions -- the lightweights in particular. Conceptually, you could carry both a intermediate caliber carbine (5.56, 7.62x39) and the Tikka lightweight bolt carbine and have much greater capabilities (range in which you could engage) and firepower (rounds per weight) by carrying two guns than just one .308 battle rifle and accompanying mags... Since Nutnfancy is so prominent lately, it becomes a "philosophy of use" decision, but two weapons does allow you to fulfill all needed capabilities, especially if your "philosophy of use" involves a rather small team where everyone has to be a rifleman in addition to any specialties...
-
preferable to a top cover or hand guard mounted optic
Don't agree on that part -- notably heavier than railed top covers or railed handguards that also assist with barrel cooling/reducing handguardheat, changes the sight plane and cheek weld, rear mount red dot limits field of view, adds unnecessary holes and according weakness to the receiver, and prevents the installation of ambi safeties. And these just the drawbacks that immediately come to mind...
Well, by golly, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on those points. Some time you might want to try one of Horse's excellent RS Regulate mounts -- light, strong, low profile and hold zero even after removal.
Nothing says you can't use a railed hand guard (like my Bonesteel unit) just because you're using the side optic rail. Just more options for lights, sling mounts, forward pistol grips, etc., if you want them. Plus the stock hand guard does a piss poor job of dissipating heat.
I seem to do fine with any Aimpoint sight as far as field of view and peripheral vision and 3D target acquisition (both eyes open). Can't stand forward hand guard mounted optics by comparison.
As far as drilled & tapped mounting holes for the rail causing weakness in the receiver, I've never seen it or even heard of it, not on milled receivers nor even stamped AK receivers, at least not with sturdy Com Bloc receivers. Conceivably, the side rail might serve to stiffen a stamped AK receiver and make it more accurate.
As far as ambidextrous safeties, those are very few and far between (when you do find them, you have to order from outside the US) and they don't fit CSA rifles anyway, so that's pretty much a moot point with me.
It guess it comes down to personal preference: I prefer a light muzzle and with the optic and weight to the back of the rifle which helps me get on targets faster. Muzzle flip and recoil are cancelled by a good muzzle brake and a recoil compensating buffer tube. Since I use an in-line stock, the elevation of the rear-mounted optic is a bonus for me on the Vz -- not having to strain my neck to get a sight picture.
-
Milled receivers, any metal imperfections or stress fractures move beyond the microscopic stage and manifest as cracks at points weakness like pin holes or lightening cuts, etc. Without those extra holes those same cracks would take longer to develop or possibly never begin/never manifest themselves on the gun. Is a concern? Your call. I prefer not to have holes in a receiver that I am not gong to use. And I think the filler screws look like crap...
I view side rails as more fitting to AKs... B/c of the milled, rather than stamped receiver, the VZ58 does not have to utilize a side rail mount. Czech Military did have a side rail mount for the Night Vision VZ58s, but modern Czech military utilized the top covers that allowed the railed top front handguard and the railed top cover to both be on the same plane which is ideal for night vision and optic and other similar co-aligned setups.
I do not doubt the quality of Horse's mounts and plan to get one in the near future for an RPK.
The weight argument between the side rail and topcover is undisputable. I'll need to run the math once Horse's rail is out, but the weight of the KingGUn topcover and the Czechpoint rail and mount was something like 4x the weight of topcover (screws and receiver clamps and spring arm are steel, top cover and rails are milled aluminum).
Are there drawbacks to the top covers and are they perfect? No. Do I prefer them all things considered on the VZ58? Yes.
And ambi safeties are a great upgrade.
-
Milled receivers, any metal imperfections or stress fractures move beyond the microscopic stage and manifest as cracks at points weakness like pin holes or lightening cuts, etc. Without those extra holes those same cracks would take longer to develop or possibly never begin/never manifest themselves on the gun. Is a concern? Your call. I prefer not to have holes in a receiver that I am not gong to use. And I think the filler screws look like crap...
I view side rails as more fitting to AKs... B/c of the milled, rather than stamped receiver, the VZ58 does not have to utilize a side rail mount. Czech Military did have a side rail mount for the Night Vision VZ58s, but modern Czech military utilized the top covers that allowed the railed top front handguard and the railed top cover to both be on the same plane which is ideal for night vision and optic and other similar co-aligned setups.
I do not doubt the quality of Horse's mounts and plan to get one in the near future for an RPK.
The weight argument between the side rail and topcover is undisputable. I'll need to run the math once Horse's rail is out, but the weight of the KingGUn topcover and the Czechpoint rail and mount was something like 4x the weight of topcover (screws and receiver clamps and spring arm are steel, top cover and rails are milled aluminum).
Are there drawbacks to the top covers and are they perfect? No. Do I prefer them all things considered on the VZ58? Yes.
And ambi safeties are a great upgrade.
I've never seen or heard of a Com Bloc stamped or milled AK cracking at the side rail rivets or screws, more likely to get a cracked trunion on a stamped AK at 80,000 to 100,000 rounds -- and that's a lot of rounds, $20,000 to $25,000 worth at Com Bloc prices. I'd assume the milled Vz should stand up at least as well as a stamped AK. Of course, the milled Chinese, Arsenals (with side rails) and even C39s just keep going and going. Last I heard these guys had some milled rental AK receivers going on 300,000+ rounds so I don't see much to worry about hairline cracks @ the side rail:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/06/03/how-many-rounds-can-an-ak-fire-before-it-breaks-down/
I agree an ambidextrous safety would be nice, they just don't make them for the CSA rifles. But if they did make one for CSA guns, it shouldn't be much of a problem to modify the rail to accommodate one. The rail's a pretty stout piece of metal, the base of which protrudes 3/8" from the receiver, so there should be plenty of room to make an ambi safety work, should one ever be produced for CSA / D-techniks rifles.
I'm not understanding why these guys don't make an ambi-safety to fit CSA rifles, which are pretty much the top of the heap as far as semi-auto Vz58s go:
https://www.corwin-arms.com/product/cz-858vz-58-ambi-safety-1
-
If you purchased the VZ2008 when it was super cheap a couple years back, you purchased it for $400 or less, including a couple mags. So it's true price was basically the same as you'd pay for a well-used VZ58 surplus parts kit today ($300) -- or more if you account for the price of the intact receiver and barrel...
I like redundancy, especially for more unique weapon systems like the VZ58. Vs spare parts, your VZ2008 also functions...
Yes, you can setup a VZ58 as a DMR, but you'd need to run a fixed magnification optic most likely so as to not have cases hitting it on ejection.
Replacing the FSB is a $30-40 part and 15 minute repair, and it allows bipods, bayonets, and FAB actually makes a flashlight mount that attaches there as well. Since you have to have permanently affixed muzzle device, I would just have gunsmith change out fsb when pinning and spot welding muzzle device. One of those pay twice deals where you're ahead to just bite the bullet, especially if this is a "forever" gun.
The benefit of special forces brake is that the inner portion works as flashider and can be used alone. The outer sleeve is a brake, and a very balanced one at that, that can be removed and reinstalled even if the inner portion is permanently affixed in place.
It's not a violation of any law to remove and replace a barrel extension. You just have to permanently affix a new muzzle device in place when removing the existing one. Any component gunsmith will do this and will do so without reservation. If you remove the extension and take it to the range and otherwise use it/don't proactively and deliberately comply with the intent of the law -- that's when you can get in trouble... Don't spook yourself. Just like FFL transfers, it's sometimes a painful process that on the surface sort of makes you feel like you're doing something wrong, but you aren't...
The quality of dustcover mounts between AKs and the available VZ58s are quite different. VZ58 railed top covers are much more robust and rigid than any AK I've seen, including my Galils which all have rear irons sights mounted to top covers... VZ58 ones all clamp to milled receiver in various fashion, are milled or cast rather than stamped, and rails are integral to the rest of the topcover. Czech engineering is solid.
The main advantage of the PTR91s is super cheap mags, still sub $5. However, if you dent the side of the upper receiver, the weapon won't function. For DMR, the HK91/G3s have pretty much the worst recoil of all .308 battle rifles, which isn't great for precision and also isn't great for optics holding zero... Mounting optics is also a pain even if you opt for a railed version of the PTR91.
For about the same price you get one of the Aero precision.308 with no furniture from Brownells, or build your own for less... My cool factor .308 is the FAL but I'm delaying purchasing that until after an AR variant in a precision/DMR setup. I think I've decided on the Rock River version though since it takes FAL mags rather than the SR25s... I'm not that committed to .308 ARs beyond the specific precision/DMR use case... Otherwise, I believe FALs or Galils/.308 AKs to be better -- more reliable and more robust -- general purpose .308 battle rifles...
Yup, I purchased it back when it went for $399. The main reason I would keep the 2008 is if I can make it fill a different role than the D-Technic I have. I don't know if I can find much value in keeping a rifle that would be using a red dot like I plan with the D-Technic and I am not a big fan of fixed powered optics. It even has the same furniture. What will happen is after I deck out the D-Technic the 2008 will not get used and end up taking up my limited safe space. Plus, I really would like a semi-auto 308 battle rifle with a red dot, I just got a Daniel Defense AR-10 and I plan on going with a Leupold 1-6 power so something for closer range/quicker target acquisition would be desirable. I am even considering a USGI M1 Carbine for purchase, I need the money from the sale of the 2008 and safe space from it's departure for one of these rifles. Spare parts are a good idea but I could probably purchase spare parts that would wear on my D-Technic for not much money.
Could you tell me more about the FSB? Does it have the front sight post? Is in painted in the same color as my D-Technic? If I get this muzzle brake installed can I still use a bayonet with it? The ability to mount a flashlight would be desirable. If you have a link it would be much appreciated. I am happy to hear that temporarily removing the barrel extention isn't a big deal, that is something that I want done ASAP. As for the optics mount, I will have to weigh both options. I am leaning towards sending CSA my rifle for a side rail mount, I find the price very reasonable and to be honest I trust the side mount more.
As for the PTR-91 I like that it so affordable in comparison with most other 308 battle rifles, the magazines are cheap, it is ready to mount optics and I heard it not very picky with ammo. The next nearest choice is the DSA FAL, the base model is $1100. From what I hear they're more finicky with the ammo you feed them and they have no way of mounting optics. Maybe the Springfield M1A Scout would be an option too for around that price? I'd also like to build out a DMR type AR-10 in the future, since you seem to know them what lower would you recommend for an AR-10 build? I'd like to get 2 AR-10 lowers for future builds, ones that can take the Magpul mags like my Daniel Defense AR-10.
Talking about other 308 rifles, I have been sitting on a Yugo M77 for 2 years now, it's an AK pattern 308 rifle. I have to purchase some CCSPEC magazines for it, I am still deciding what I want to do with it, I want to put the original Yugo wood on it (I have the adapter for a wood buttstock) but I have no idea what I want to do for an optic. Maybe a Russian magnified optic, possibly a 4-16 power scope? I am undecided....
By the way, can you share the link for the optics rail cover and muzzle device you're selling? I couldn't find them...
-
One additional question, what's a good trade in price on my VZ-2008? I added an original beaver barf stock to it and took the folder off.
If you plan on trading it into a dealer, don't expect more than $300 for it.
If you sell it yourself you may get $550-650. Personally I would keep it as a backup or for spare parts
Thanks, I have some interested in the rifle for $500, so that's right in the middle.
-
If it's not already drilled and tapped and had an optic side rail mounted, as long as it's a D-Technik or CSA mfg. rifle, you can send it to Czechpoint and have that work done for @ $80, which would be preferable to a top cover or hand guard mounted optic:
https://www.czechpoint-usa.com/receiver-side-rail-installed?l=4
Hell of a deal!
That is awesome, I am leaning heavily towards that. I wonder if I send them the optic with the rifle if they can put it on the optics mount, attach it to the rifle and zero it for extra?
-
Thinking further -- if wanting max accuracy in 7.62x39, the CZ527 in bolt action is very appealing and on my buy list...
Also some folks have done sniper/DMR/accurized SKSes relatively cheaply and that would be a pretty cost effective platform for that type of modification as well.
If starting in .308 clean with a limited budget and wanting max accuracy, take a look at the Tikka bolt actions -- the lightweights in particular. Conceptually, you could carry both a intermediate caliber carbine (5.56, 7.62x39) and the Tikka lightweight bolt carbine and have much greater capabilities (range in which you could engage) and firepower (rounds per weight) by carrying two guns than just one .308 battle rifle and accompanying mags... Since Nutnfancy is so prominent lately, it becomes a "philosophy of use" decision, but two weapons does allow you to fulfill all needed capabilities, especially if your "philosophy of use" involves a rather small team where everyone has to be a rifleman in addition to any specialties...
I rather have a DMR setup, something on a semi-auto, a bolt action in 7.62x39 is kinda pointless since it's not a long range/high precision cartridge. I was actually considering a Romanian AES-10 for such a build since it has a nice long/heavy barrel and a optics rail.
-
Thinking further -- if wanting max accuracy in 7.62x39, the CZ527 in bolt action is very appealing and on my buy list...
Also some folks have done sniper/DMR/accurized SKSes relatively cheaply and that would be a pretty cost effective platform for that type of modification as well.
If starting in .308 clean with a limited budget and wanting max accuracy, take a look at the Tikka bolt actions -- the lightweights in particular. Conceptually, you could carry both a intermediate caliber carbine (5.56, 7.62x39) and the Tikka lightweight bolt carbine and have much greater capabilities (range in which you could engage) and firepower (rounds per weight) by carrying two guns than just one .308 battle rifle and accompanying mags... Since Nutnfancy is so prominent lately, it becomes a "philosophy of use" decision, but two weapons does allow you to fulfill all needed capabilities, especially if your "philosophy of use" involves a rather small team where everyone has to be a rifleman in addition to any specialties...
I rather have a DMR setup, something on a semi-auto, a bolt action in 7.62x39 is kinda pointless since it's not a long range/high precision cartridge. I was actually considering a Romanian AES-10 for such a build since it has a nice long/heavy barrel and a optics rail.
You might also check out a Vepr for a DMR. They have the RPK receiver and heavy, long barrels (16 - 20 to 23" or more) , but are chambered in many calibers in addition to the usual 5.56, 5.45 & 7.62x39: 6.5 Grendel, .308, 7.62x54R and even .30'06, which would be more useful as a DMR.
https://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles/
-
OP, with regard to your distaste for having perceived redundancy in a fighting rifle; my personal opinion is that it is a good thing to have a spare to cannibalize if necessary.
Especially if you're not likely to get a fair price resale for your spare.
-
I rather have a DMR setup, something on a semi-auto, a bolt action in 7.62x39 is kinda pointless since it's not a long range/high precision cartridge. I was actually considering a Romanian AES-10 for such a build since it has a nice long/heavy barrel and a optics rail.
I have a heavy barrel AES10B and while it is accurate, I honestly can't say that it's noticeably more accurate than a VZ58... The main cool thing about them is that they are an RPK and then the cheap price of drum mags. What they definitely are is heavy! I want to say about 13lbs w/o an optic... Now there are light barrel AES, etc, but with a 20" barrel with a bipod at the end, you absolutely want the heavy barrel for accuracy. Also, there are more than a few AES' with issues requiring costly repair, so bear that in mind as well. I got my AES at sub $800, possibly sub $700, but lately all I've seen have been $1k plus, so accuracywise and general utility, it's really hard to beat an SKS... Granted, the RPK is a looker (and under no circumstances would I buy a Century Arms US made copy)
Everyone I've seen report puts the 527 as more accurate than a VZ58. My point about accuracy is that as a mid sized game to deer rifle at less than 200 yards and hogs at 100, the CZ527 is really tough to beat. Have got my paws on 527s in the store and they handle and point nicely and have great balance. If looking for accuracy first, the 527 mini mauser is worth serious consideration...
The main thing with accurized guns is to ensure they shot a caliber that you can afford to shoot. I tend to shoot Galil's more than ARs due to Galils shooting the cheap steel case .223. I tend to shoot brass cased ARs at .35 cents per round over shooting my K31 at 60 cents+ per round, etc. If you can't afford to shoot it and practice with it, your ability to improve with a weapon is limited. If you have a limited budget and can shoot 600 rounds of .308 per year vs 1500 rounds of 7.62x39, then go with the 7.62x39 hands down. Practice is critical for actually being able to use your weapon under stress. Do not forget that component when considering all the others.
-
Thinking further -- if wanting max accuracy in 7.62x39, the CZ527 in bolt action is very appealing and on my buy list...
Also some folks have done sniper/DMR/accurized SKSes relatively cheaply and that would be a pretty cost effective platform for that type of modification as well.
If starting in .308 clean with a limited budget and wanting max accuracy, take a look at the Tikka bolt actions -- the lightweights in particular. Conceptually, you could carry both a intermediate caliber carbine (5.56, 7.62x39) and the Tikka lightweight bolt carbine and have much greater capabilities (range in which you could engage) and firepower (rounds per weight) by carrying two guns than just one .308 battle rifle and accompanying mags... Since Nutnfancy is so prominent lately, it becomes a "philosophy of use" decision, but two weapons does allow you to fulfill all needed capabilities, especially if your "philosophy of use" involves a rather small team where everyone has to be a rifleman in addition to any specialties...
I rather have a DMR setup, something on a semi-auto, a bolt action in 7.62x39 is kinda pointless since it's not a long range/high precision cartridge. I was actually considering a Romanian AES-10 for such a build since it has a nice long/heavy barrel and a optics rail.
You might also check out a Vepr for a DMR. They have the RPK receiver and heavy, long barrels (16 - 20 to 23" or more) , but are chambered in many calibers in addition to the usual 5.56, 5.45 & 7.62x39: 6.5 Grendel, .308, 7.62x54R and even .30'06, which would be more useful as a DMR.
https://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles/
I have been looking at those VEPR's, I am very interested, I may go that way.
-
OP, with regard to your distaste for having perceived redundancy in a fighting rifle; my personal opinion is that it is a good thing to have a spare to cannibalize if necessary.
Especially if you're not likely to get a fair price resale for your spare.
I have decided to keep it for now, all of the points posted here have convinced me.
-
I rather have a DMR setup, something on a semi-auto, a bolt action in 7.62x39 is kinda pointless since it's not a long range/high precision cartridge. I was actually considering a Romanian AES-10 for such a build since it has a nice long/heavy barrel and a optics rail.
I have a heavy barrel AES10B and while it is accurate, I honestly can't say that it's noticeably more accurate than a VZ58... The main cool thing about them is that they are an RPK and then the cheap price of drum mags. What they definitely are is heavy! I want to say about 13lbs w/o an optic... Now there are light barrel AES, etc, but with a 20" barrel with a bipod at the end, you absolutely want the heavy barrel for accuracy. Also, there are more than a few AES' with issues requiring costly repair, so bear that in mind as well. I got my AES at sub $800, possibly sub $700, but lately all I've seen have been $1k plus, so accuracywise and general utility, it's really hard to beat an SKS... Granted, the RPK is a looker (and under no circumstances would I buy a Century Arms US made copy)
Everyone I've seen report puts the 527 as more accurate than a VZ58. My point about accuracy is that as a mid sized game to deer rifle at less than 200 yards and hogs at 100, the CZ527 is really tough to beat. Have got my paws on 527s in the store and they handle and point nicely and have great balance. If looking for accuracy first, the 527 mini mauser is worth serious consideration...
The main thing with accurized guns is to ensure they shot a caliber that you can afford to shoot. I tend to shoot Galil's more than ARs due to Galils shooting the cheap steel case .223. I tend to shoot brass cased ARs at .35 cents per round over shooting my K31 at 60 cents+ per round, etc. If you can't afford to shoot it and practice with it, your ability to improve with a weapon is limited. If you have a limited budget and can shoot 600 rounds of .308 per year vs 1500 rounds of 7.62x39, then go with the 7.62x39 hands down. Practice is critical for actually being able to use your weapon under stress. Do not forget that component when considering all the others.
Thinking about the weight, I am thinking about holding off on the x39 DMR for a bit. I recently purchased a Arsenal Milled AK with the metal folding stock and it weighs a ton, the AES-10 weighs more and would probably see me using it less. I have been looking at the SKS for an accuracy rifle but mounting optics would be tough. I have looked at the 527 and that might be an option, however I would prefer a semi-auto option.
You make a great point about shooting what you can afford, sadly I haven't shot my rifles much over the last few years, I have mostly been shooting my pistols. I have been spending most of my extra money on adding new firearms to my collection, out of fears of changing political winds. I have almost all the weapons I really wanted and I am hoping to spend more time actually shooting instead of collecting in the near future, I still need to stock up on ammo and get optics though....
I actually shoot mostly steel cased through most of my firearms, including my Smith and Wesson M&P 9 and Colt 6920 AR, luckily they're all reliable with steel.
-
You might also check out a Vepr for a DMR. They have the RPK receiver and heavy, long barrels (16 - 20 to 23" or more) , but are chambered in many calibers in addition to the usual 5.56, 5.45 & 7.62x39: 6.5 Grendel, .308, 7.62x54R and even .30'06, which would be more useful as a DMR.
https://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles/
Do keep in mind that the 27" barrel versions of the above are not just longer but also considerably thicker than all the shorter ones.
The outside barrel diameter is the same as the front sight base on the 27s
they are impossible to find at the moment, thought.
Csspecs has steel mags for the 308 and soon for 54R which will be the bees knees
I'm already excited...
-
VEPRs can be used as DMRs, though I don't get the appeal of a "DMR" for civilians as a purpose-built gun... Specifically, any "rifle" and several carbines I have are at least "DMR" or better. It's the natural optimized evolution of a rifle for me as a single shooter not part of a greater unit. For a DMR -- that is a weapon accurized, either by configuration or ammo selection, and a magnified optic... Effectively most guns and every weapon system can be made into a DMR.
The same cannot be said for an accurized sniper rifle. So the question is not DMR, but rather a sniper-capable rifle -- and the only question for a sniper equivalent rifle is at what min and max ranges do you want your weapon optimized for. In part this has to due with the innate capabilities and limits of your caliber, but also relates to the intended use...
As we're not a military dot gov weapon acquisition folks, if going for accuracy, the weapons cost is negligible -- less than $500 usually and almost always less than $1k -- between systems (that is, AK vs AR, etc).
The main difference between a sniper weapon and DMR is the optic -- and the shooter. Generally, sniper rifles are desired to be 1 MOA capable, while DMRs are 2-3 MOA capable. And there may be some barrel profile and barrel length compromises on the DMR end (generally lighter weight components since rifleman first and accurized fire at range secondary or less responsibility after rifleman, porting ammo for squad automatic weapon, and porting extra mortar rounds, etc) that aren't deemed acceptable, or needed, on the Sniper end as well... Importantly, snipers in the military do not configure field weapon similar to the heavy benchrest monstrosities you see at the range...
So, want a reliable .308 battle rifle/DMR at sub $1k in an AK pattern -- go with the VEPR or Galil .308 or your pic of other options. Most weapon systems can be made to shoot 3 moa or better, especially if sticking with the ammo that given gun shoots best with... In such a configuration, that's a DMR rifle.
Want max accuracy in .308 at sub $1k-$1.2k -- AR10 pattern if semi, or your pic of accurized bolt actions...
Your cost between a .308 DMR and .308 Sniper setup (excluding optic) is $200-$500 most likely, which for one rifle for one person is manageable, and much of that cost is in the free floated rail with minimal cost differences in barrels where you find rapidly diminishing returns. The cost for optics may be $500 or so different, depending on what level of optic you deem acceptable for the DMR and Sniper roles... Low end on DMR and high end on sniper leads to a much greater cost difference than high end for both or low end for both.
-
You might also check out a Vepr for a DMR. They have the RPK receiver and heavy, long barrels (16 - 20 to 23" or more) , but are chambered in many calibers in addition to the usual 5.56, 5.45 & 7.62x39: 6.5 Grendel, .308, 7.62x54R and even .30'06, which would be more useful as a DMR.
https://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles/ (https://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles/)
Do keep in mind that the 27" barrel versions of the above are not just longer but also considerably thicker than all the shorter ones.
The outside barrel diameter is the same as the front sight base on the 27s
they are impossible to find at the moment, thought.
Csspecs has steel mags for the 308 and soon for 54R which will be the bees knees
I'm already excited...
Just sold my PSL. :( but I am working on my 23" VEPR currently and intend to check various 54R rounds and bullet weights to see what, if anything, it likes the best. Regarding the 27", I always wondered if going with the longer heavier barrel and then chopping it down to 23ish had any merits.
Re csspes... SHHHHH!
Regarding nomenclature of DMR vs. Sniper, etc. IMHO these refer to a function of the individual, and not necessarily the tool. Having said that in the Eastern block a PSL, SVD type rifle with optic is certainly designed for longer range support ss is the typical .308 bolt action in the west.
I have freinds that shoot "Precision Rifles" and compete in Precision Rifle events, sometimes including shots out to 1 mile on 18" plates. These are typically ground up custom built guns with special barrels and exceptional high end optics chambered in 338 Lapua, 6.5 Creedmor, 6mm, etc. If anyone here is located near NE Ohio we are having a longer range shoot in a couple weeks: http://www.southingtonhuntclub.net/results.html
Update: I am in agreement with MAC philosophy on DMR -- Sniper. A VZ.58 could be used as either with the right optic/ammo/operator.
https://youtu.be/YCccDn76WY4
I bought a very detailed book on sniper operations for a buddy of mine. The majority of the book got into concealment, movement, intelligence collection, radio operation, survival, etc etc. and shooting was a small, albeit important skill for the sniper. Many snipers (teams) can complete a tour without firing a shot at an enemy or designated target.
-
VEPRs can be used as DMRs, though I don't get the appeal of a "DMR" for civilians as a purpose-built gun... Specifically, any "rifle" and several carbines I have are at least "DMR" or better. It's the natural optimized evolution of a rifle for me as a single shooter not part of a greater unit. For a DMR -- that is a weapon accurized, either by configuration or ammo selection, and a magnified optic... Effectively most guns and every weapon system can be made into a DMR.
The same cannot be said for an accurized sniper rifle. So the question is not DMR, but rather a sniper-capable rifle -- and the only question for a sniper equivalent rifle is at what min and max ranges do you want your weapon optimized for. In part this has to due with the innate capabilities and limits of your caliber, but also relates to the intended use...
As we're not a military dot gov weapon acquisition folks, if going for accuracy, the weapons cost is negligible -- less than $500 usually and almost always less than $1k -- between systems (that is, AK vs AR, etc).
The main difference between a sniper weapon and DMR is the optic -- and the shooter. Generally, sniper rifles are desired to be 1 MOA capable, while DMRs are 2-3 MOA capable. And there may be some barrel profile and barrel length compromises on the DMR end (generally lighter weight components since rifleman first and accurized fire at range secondary or less responsibility after rifleman, porting ammo for squad automatic weapon, and porting extra mortar rounds, etc) that aren't deemed acceptable, or needed, on the Sniper end as well... Importantly, snipers in the military do not configure field weapon similar to the heavy benchrest monstrosities you see at the range...
So, want a reliable .308 battle rifle/DMR at sub $1k in an AK pattern -- go with the VEPR or Galil .308 or your pic of other options. Most weapon systems can be made to shoot 3 moa or better, especially if sticking with the ammo that given gun shoots best with... In such a configuration, that's a DMR rifle.
Want max accuracy in .308 at sub $1k-$1.2k -- AR10 pattern if semi, or your pic of accurized bolt actions...
Your cost between a .308 DMR and .308 Sniper setup (excluding optic) is $200-$500 most likely, which for one rifle for one person is manageable, and much of that cost is in the free floated rail with minimal cost differences in barrels where you find rapidly diminishing returns. The cost for optics may be $500 or so different, depending on what level of optic you deem acceptable for the DMR and Sniper roles... Low end on DMR and high end on sniper leads to a much greater cost difference than high end for both or low end for both.
I always viewed a DMR as a weapon chambered in 5.56mm, 7.62x39 or 308 with a magnified optic in a semi-automatic platform, potentially with a longer/heavier barrel but not necessarily and shoots 2-3 MOA. As for a sniper rifle I would consider it to be something that's all custom, including the ammo, chambered in a battle rifle round or bigger and is operated by someone specially trained in it's use. A DMR in my mind is used by your more run of the mil solider. However, that's my personal opinion, I have seen vastly different options on the subject though.
Ideally I would like a semi-auto 7.62x39 weapon with a 4-12 power scope with a heavier, potentially longer barrel that would make it especially easy to engage targets in the 100-300 yard range. The Vepr is looking like the perfect platform for that. By the way, I do own a Yugo M77 in 308, so I already own an AK pattern DMR, it's been sitting in my safe for awhile. I have to get some of those Ccspec 308 magazines for it and finish turning it into my "vision". The expensive magazines for it have been keeping me from finishing it quickly....
-
Here's a better summary of my take... Bottom line, a DMR is modern rifleman who has shooting talents equivalent to your average shooting enthusiast, woodsman, someone how has gone through Appleseed or similar, etc, and has the configured their weapon in a manner that optimizes its accuracy... Sniper requires purpose-built weapon, a higher degree of training, and better optics... It's the difference between being able to engage bullseye first shot (properly, estimated rather than known exact ranges) and cold bore vs taking a few shots to walk rounds in, etc. (Note that Russian "snipers" are properly DMRs by proper definitions... The Russians were caught without proper sniper capabilities in Afghanistan and Chechnya having only a squad marksman, spun up SVDs and additional training but still well short of sniper as the US military defines at least until the past decade or so when Russians have modernized their military and moved away from Cold War massed tactics -- similar story with Russian Special Operations as well, where US Spec Ops forces have provided a lot of training and modernization to those units up until the past few years with Russian aggression stopping most of the military exchanges and collaboration).
Here's a more complete summary:
DMR
-More accurate than standard issue via build specs, optic, or both
-Capable of being a general use military rifle/carbine, so semi-auto required
-Able to reach further than standard issue weapon through caliber, cartridge, optic -- requires at least one to be superior than standard infantryman, but could include all
-Accuracy requirement is minute of man through expected engagement ranges, as much for accurate suppression fire at distance as for precision targeting
-Primary role for DMR soldier is in an anti-personnel role
-Works within standard infantry platoons/fireteams
-Low magnification optics are sufficient here
Sniper
-1 MOA requirement throughout intended engagement range
-A purpose-built weapon, so can be semi-auto or bolt action
-Greater accuracy requirements requires a much higher standard of marksmanship, so typically requires .308 or greater caliber in military (police snipers with shorter ranges can be well served through intermediate calibers such as 7.62x39 or 5.56 however), match grade ammo, and higher magnification optic with mil or moa dot recticle to best utilize sniper precision and skillset
-Accuracy requirement is 1 MOA noted earlier and intended to be capable of achieving objective throughout engagement ranges with just one shot
-Primary role is to disable high value targets -- officers, NCOs, other leadership, support weapon teams (MGs, grenade launchers, mortars, etc), vehicles, light armored vehicles, unarmored infrastructure, etc
-Primary role is as an independent unit, often
-Attached at company level or higher from company or battalion level HQ or Sniper companies/platoons
-High magnification optics are required and proportionate to ranges and capabilities of rifle and caliber and intended use
-
That seems to be a very well thought out opinion on the difference between a DMR and Sniper, thanks for sharing. :)
-
Iraq fields the Tabuk, a long-barreled AK "sniper" rifle in 7.62x39:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabuk_Sniper_Rifle