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GENERAL => CZ Gunsmithing => Topic started by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 01:12:33 AM

Title: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 01:12:33 AM
***** WARNING: I did this as a helpful test. Any mods you make are yours and I hold no responsibility for your actions, especially since you are not under my personal supervision. Just making sure it's clear that while I am trying to be helpful no one does something stupid and blames it on me because they read my post. Pictures of polished parts still coming. Don't have Photoshop anymore and I've been looking for another option. I just need to lighten them up a little since I don't have a photo studio with great lighting. Trying GIMP and should have those posted soon.

The Project:
    Since I made an unplanned CZ purchase to get one of these SP-01 Compacts I figured I would take this chance to document the impact that each upgrade had on the trigger pull. Hopefully this helps others chose what they want to upgrade, and not feel like one has to spend $350 in upgrade components to have a decent CZ Pistol.  I apologize upfront because I do not have the budget some others may have, so I am not able to test every single part available (I wish I could have though). 
   The constraints of this test are that the pistol is a manual safety classic trigger system, so this test does not apply to decocker models or the new Omega triggers.

The Parts & Upgrades:
    Here?s the list of parts I ordered, as well as the polishing work I will be doing. All parts were ordered from Cajun Gun Works. This isn?t because I favor them over CZ Custom, they just had everything so I could save in shipping. I was NOT given any parts or discounts. Matter of fact, I had to sell a pistol to help fund this new pistol and these parts. So, no? Sadly I am not receiving any benefit from any shop or company for doing this project. Side note, I list the grips, but they are not part of the test. I love the thin aluminum grips ? so there went more of my budget - just don?t think they is a necessary cost for achieving a great CZ.
   I?ll be clear in stating that I am in no way at the level of Schmeky (David at Cajun Gun Works) or some of the others on this forum. So, I am not going to try and recreate the wheel by re-writing a ?How to?. I followed the tutorials in the pinned threads of the gun smithing sub-forum and if anyone wants to do what I have done that is where to go for specific directions.

14RSC 14# Compact Recoil Spring ? 1   $6.00
TR-PIN Floating Trigger Pin ? 1   $13.00
20C Hammer Spring Strut Compact ? 1   $10.00
10035 Production Legal Competition Hammer ? 1   $69.00
HPIN Hammer Pin ? 1   $2.50
RP-TRS Reduced Power Trigger Return Spring ? 1   $7.00
54420 Ultra-Lite Kit ? 1   $44.00
10317 Thin Aluminum Grips Compact Copper ? 1   $85.00
Polish the:
    Stock Trigger
    Trigger Bar
    Sear
    Sear Cage
    Firing Pin Block Lifter Arm
    Stock Hammer
    Competition Hammer
    Hammer Strut
    Hammer Retaining Pin
    Disconnector

Comparison Pistols:
    I have a CZ 75 Compact (classic version) converted to SAO and an SP-01. They were planned children and thereby received more funding. I test their trigger pulls with my new trigger pull gauge as a sort of base line measure. They have the advantage of dry and live fire, but they also have some parts I couldn?t afford this time around. As I progress through the test I will point out differences along the way. I am also going to run into surprises and I hope this spurs open dialogue and discussion from forum long-timers, shop owners, gunsmiths, and everyone else regarding causation and any other thoughts. Now that the introduction and explanation is out of the way here we go.

Results: Spoiler Alert!
    I am the kind of person who enjoys, even needs, the technical details. Therefore, I wrote about this project with some detail. I blame any overly ?thoroughness? on the guys over in the reloading sub-forum, they keep me humble when I leave out any detail? Just messing, sort of? All the same, for those who just want to see the results I am putting them here. If you want to read the details of the steps, questions I now have, and some conclusions, then please read further. It is up to you how much you read.

Step 1: Baseline Trigger Pulls:
Double ActionSingle Action
CZ 75 Compact Classic SAO 2 lbs 5 ounces
SP-01 6 lbs 9 ounces2 lbs 8 ounces
SP-01 Compact 9 lbs 4.3 ounces4 lbs 10 ounces

Remaining Step By Step Testing Outcomes:
Double Action Single Action
Step 2: Polish Trigger and Trigger Bar 9 lbs 7.8 ounces 4 lbs 12 ounces
Step 3: CGW Reduced Power Trigger Return Spring 9 lbs 4 ounces 4 lbs 4 ounces
Step 4: CW Ultra-Lite Self Defense Kit 7 lbs 11 ounces 3 lbs 8 ounces
Step 5: Polishing Remaining Stock Parts 7 lbs 13 ounces 4 lbs 0.5 ounces
Step 6: The Polished Competition Hammer 7 lbs 11 ounces 2 lbs 11 ounces
Step 7: Removing Firing Pin Block, FPB Lifter Arm, and associated springs  7 lbs 11 ounces 2 lbs 7 ounces
Step 7.5: Cajun Gun Works 11.5 lb Hammer Spring  5 lbs 9 ounces 2 lbs 0.4 ounces

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 01:14:06 AM
Step 1: Baseline Trigger pulls
   I used a Lyman digital trigger pull gauge that was brand new. I read instructions and practiced over and over to make sure I wasn?t cheating to get artificially low results (by manipulating angles to unrealistic extremes) or by pulling from unrealistic spots on the trigger and getting too high of results. I wanted to preface that, so when surprising things happen people don?t immediately think I just pulled out a new trigger pull gauge and pulled away like a mindless ding dong.

Step 1: Baseline Trigger Pulls:
Double ActionSingle Action
CZ 75 Compact Classic SAO 2 lbs 5 ounces
SP-01 6 lbs 9 ounces2 lbs 8 ounces
SP-01 Compact 9 lbs 4.3 ounces4 lbs 10 ounces

CZ 75 Compact Classic SAO
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/bc9f09270ce316332062c6b70a56077f.jpg)
SP-01 Double Action
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/67a3751da9da57dd160f774b69e88500.jpg)
SP-01 Single Action
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/d5a513f66894edab79665caab2e048ac.jpg)
SP-01 Compact Double Action
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/8e6f5ec20f0bdd3927ce0a13899a0f79.jpg)
SP-01 Single Action
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/233e1317704a110338e780fe1b1d2124.jpg)
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 01:16:11 AM
Step 2: Polish Trigger and Trigger Bar
    Schmeky, SP-01 Shadow, and others get all of their trigger bars to more of a mirror polish and remove all the black coating. I get worried about removing too much material after having read comments from Schmecky and Stuart, so I smooth and get contact points to a mirror finish, but you can still see some black coating on low spots. I did use stones on the sides of the trigger bar, and I hadn?t done so in the past. Long of the short, thanks to following the great tutorials there is basically zero friction from my trigger bar contacting the frame. It got so smooth it was difficult to hold while polishing.
    As I started working on the trigger I decided to remove the black coating and give it a brushed stainless look. That was not for performance, just me wasting time on cosmetics. The contact points were polished smooth. I have never kept a stock trigger, so while I was at it I smoothed edges and corners where my trigger finger will be in contact. I?m hoping to avoid the supposed trigger bite. I?ll see if this worked when I get it to the range..
Trigger bar pictures coming soon **
Trigger pictures coming soon**
Step 2 Reults:
Double Action: 9 lbs 7.8 ounces
Single Action: 4 lbs 12 ounces
    I?ll be honest, I didn?t expect these results. I pulled the trigger over and over with the gauge. I had re-applied the same lube I had used when I cleaned and re-lubed the pistol after I brought it home. Furthermore, the trigger pull on double action felt better. I was sure it would have dropped the pull weight at least a little.  As with all sections, I am ready to hear thoughts and feedback. While this polishing is essential, maybe just these two parts alone won?t make any difference in the pull weight, just feel?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/c34fb9fa66ee90cbb2a06e7f5b478bfd.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/c4363ae02adee50e4221c5b196970d71.jpg)
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 01:17:18 AM
Step 3: Cajun Gun Works Reduced Power Trigger Return Spring
    CGW advertises this will drop pull weight by about 0.5 lbs. After my bizarre results of a slightly heavier trigger pull from step 2, I was ready for anything.
Step 3 Results:
Double Action: 9 lbs 4 ounces
Single Action: 4 lbs 4 ounces
    There we go, results as advertised. For the cost, this is a great upgrade and I have it in both my other pistols. Easy way to knock of ? lb on your trigger pull.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/24971501951e1818ddc3cec1ae516380.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/5b8598de89b65ab3679279bd1538ebfd.jpg)
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 01:18:22 AM
Step 4: Cajun Gun Works Ultra-Lite Self Defense Kit
    This kit contains a lighter FPB plunger spring, lighter firing pin spring, extended firing pin, CGW?s firing pin retaining pin and the 13 lb hammer spring. I?ve used these parts in my other pistols and really liked the results. I tossed them in before any more polishing because CGW?s site says this kit with the 13 lb hammer spring will cut the DA by 50%. I?ll be honest, I was ready for more impressive results.
Step 4 Results:
Double Action: 7 lbs 11 ounces
Single Action: 3 lbs 8 ounces
    Reducing the DA by 50% would have put my trigger pull somewhere in the range of 4 lbs 10 ounces. (16 ounces to 1 lb if you are doing math in your head, not like normal decimal places with 10 to 1 ratios). Honestly, I was looking for something closer to mid 6 lbs range. I have heard the stories of stock CZ 75?s with DA trigger pulls in the 12 lb range and this kit probably helps those pistols far more than one starting out around 9 lbs. That being said, I was somewhat disappointed because my SP-01 has the trigger pull that I was hoping for, down around 6lbs. Don?t get ahead of yourselves though. I have more steps and I later discover that my sear had a pretty pronounced burr where it contacts the trigger hooks. Maybe that additional drag made it worse? Either way, David and Scott have provided the most incredible customer service I?ve had and this is in no way bagging their product. This is a sample size of 1 and more importantly, had I called them they would have done anything to walk me through troubleshooting and solutions. I wanted to be scientific and see the process through before I reached out to them. Besides, I was at an acceptable DA considering the step in my process. It was around half of those really bad DA triggers I hear of, so I pressed forward.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/3cc9b3dff706f697ef5e9411dc1b2b8b.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/b1648a9bc7aa1a524fd69f0a7f8cc1fc.jpg)
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 01:19:37 AM
Step 5: Polishing Remaining Stock Parts
    Realistically I polished everything else at this point, just to be economical in my process. You?ll see that in the pictures of the parts, so just realize that I can not install both hammers at the same time, and only the stock parts went into the pistol. The installed polished parts are as follows: sear, sear cage, sear cage pin, FPB lifter arm, stock hammer, hammer strut, hammer retaining pin, and disconnector.
   The major part that I have in my other two pistols that I did not order for this series of upgrades was a disconnector. I was beginning to suspect that the lack of this part played a major role in not achieving the Double Action results I was hoping for.
   Furthermore, my single action trigger break was sort of like dragging a metal rake across gravel. This was not what I had experienced with my other pistols when they were stock. When I got to the the sear I ran my thumbnail across the face that contacts the hammer hooks to see if there were machining marks or something unusual. On the bottom edge of that contact face my thumbnail caught and stuck in place. There was a pronounced burr, like a rolled knife blade edge. I checked the hammer hooks and they definitely rough with machine marks, only making that burr seem worse.
    Now let me make a preface. Removing material can remove the hardened surface of the part. I did work the sear on my stones to ever so carefully remove the burr but not take material from any other part of that contact face or change the angle of that contact face. All the same, I know that this could cause my part to wear faster and I will have to check it and make sure it is not of the verge of failure as the pistol is used. Now I hear this still takes thousands and thousands of rounds, but I wanted to make sure I addressed that I am aware of this implication while alerting readers who may not know. I also used 1500 grit sandpaper to try and smooth the hammer hook faces. I was going to replace the stock hammer, so I figured I would try to ever so gently do some smoothing and polishing, but I didn?t get carried away to perfection. 
     Here are pictures of the tools I used and all the parts after polishing. Like the trigger bar, I am cautious to remove material so the black coating remains in spots. Any contact points were polished, even if the coating is still showing.
    When it comes to the Dremel I find that making passes with my felt wheel on the 2 or 3 power settings allows the Fritz to stay in place and work well. It gets the initial polish underway, and I can use a little more pressure to get things happening and then back the pressure off. Then once I am satisfied I crank the Dremel up to the max power setting. I put my hand around the felt wheel (not touching it) for a few seconds, so Fritz doesn?t get all of the room. I ever so gently pass over the spots I want to mirror polish. Usually these spots have some Fritz on them, which is good because the dremel wheel flings a lot its Fritz off. This is my process after testing speeds and combinations of speeds for polishing. If you take this approach just be super soft and gentle on that high speed, you don?t want to remove material with aggressive pressure. Realize that the extreme rpm?s do the polishing at this point, not requiring brute force.
     For getting small flat spots I have found that I like to remove most (close to all) of the cotton from a Q-tip, snap it in half, and put it into my dremel. Put some Flitz on the Q-tip and the part to polish (just a little, it doesn?t take tons). Then use the flat end to polish the spot. It also works for getting into small holes and areas that my felt wheel doesn?t get into very well or at all. You can see a used one in the pictures that I used in some holes and it actually wore down the flat end to more of a point (allowing me to get into smaller hoes). If you do this be careful, if you make it have too long of a shaft it may snap and go flying? into your eye! I only have about an inch sticking out of the Dremmel. Also, you can use it on its side, but anything but slight pressure can cause it to snap. Just wear safety glasses! This Q-tip trick pays off, especially on the small flat faces on the back of the trigger bar. These are my processes that I haven?t seen in tutorials, or that I wanted to clarify for the sake of the project. Let's move on to the pictures and results.
** Polished Parts Pictures coming soon
Step 5 Results:
Double Action: 7 lbs 13 ounces
Single Action: 4 lbs 0.5 ounces
    I was confused and a little angry at these results. Why would this pull weight basically be the same as the previous step? Higher for the single action! It didn?t even feel like the same pistol at this point, these had made such a marked difference! The Double Action pull was so much smoother and the Single Action break was much better. Albeit, still rough because there was only so much I could do to the hammer hooks of the stock hammer. Still, I was sure getting rid of the burr on the sear would at least reduce the pull weight a little. As my list of remaining parts was slowly dwindling I immediately took everything apart to put in the Competition Hammer. I needed to see if it would be the game changer.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/d686f9723b613ae8ce1138eb90a4a67f.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/3fa1bb397e42c041c78fdbb19fc9cd74.jpg)
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 01:20:53 AM
Step 6: The Polished Competition Hammer
    All of my polishing explanations are above, and I had already done the Competition Hammer, as seen in the pictures. No further breath needs be wasted, let's get this bad boy installed and tested.
Step 6 Results:
Double Action: 7 lbs 11 ounces
Single Action: 2 lbs 11 ounces
    Suddenly I recognized the trigger break I love in my other two CZ pistols. ?Zealot for Comp and Race Hammers? status solidified! Smoother, crisper break, no real camming, overall just what I was looking for in the trigger in Single Action.
    The Double Action remained almost unchanged and this seems to confirm another theory I had posited in my mind.?The CGW Disconnector?. The disconnector from CGW in my SP-01 seemed to be impacting the smoothness and the weight by about 1 lb. This is a little bit of let down, I had hoped that some diligent polishing on my stock disconnector would have gotten me the same Double Action pull weight and feel. I was thinking that the CGW disconnectors played more of a role for reach reduction and Single Action reset, but it seems like I was wrong, they do more. I could test modifying the DA contact face on the stock disconnector ever so slightly, but this is not the project for a test like that. Let?s be honest, if you?re reading to this point you probably don?t need an entire side test inserted here...
Disconnector Update:
I took the CGW disconnector out of my full size SP-01 and put it in my SP-01 Compact. There was no noticeable difference in trigger pull weight. Is the geometry different on the P-01 frame than the classic Compact or SP-01? Do I need to polish the inside of the frame? Not totally sure at this point... Happy to hear explanations or thoughts!
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/972fc23e7102df046047eafdeec76765.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/382762acd05a98d6439f7376dce984dd.jpg)
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 01:22:07 AM
Step 7: Remove FPB & Associated Parts
    Ultimately I want this SP-01 Compact to be as close to my full size SP-01 as possible. To do so I removed the FPB, FPB lifter arm, and coinciding springs. I then replaced the lifter arm with a spacer I had laying around in my spare parts from CGW.
    At this point I need to make a confession, I didn?t polish the Firing Pin Block. Why? Well, I had the intentions of removing it and didn?t feel like spending more time polishing parts I was going to remove. I know, this isn?t very scientific of me. But, remember the bizarre results I kept getting? I polished parts and the trigger feels better, but the pull weight doesn?t decrease (often slightly increasing). It could be argued that any weight reduction in the trigger pull from removing these parts is solely due to their removal, and the lack of polishing played no role in pull weight to start with. I would have argued against that statement until I saw my own results. Even now it just doesn?t feel intuitive. I am not arguing that polishing is not effective! Holy smokes, my trigger feels so much better from the polishing, it is essential! I am simply saying that polishing consistently did not reduce trigger pull weights.
   Now that the confession is out of the way. This was an easy modification and here?s the results.
Step 7 Results:
Double Action: 7 lbs 11 ounces
Single Action: 2 lbs 7 ounces
    This didn?t reduce the weight too much. It does create a great trigger reset! There?s some little things I can do to fine tune my reset, but it is excellent as is. At this point I think I have given slightly more love and care to the smoothness of this Single Action than my SP-01. It is such a small difference in Single Action pull weight, but the break is smooth as can be. Maybe that statement isn?t entirely true, I am sure it can be even better, but it sure feels incredible! If I was going to leave the FPB in I would have spent loving tender care time on polishing it, and it would not have been a hindrance to the feel and pull weight. My classic 75 Compact still has the FPB and a 15 lb hammer spring (the heaviest of my 3 pistols at this point) and yet it has the lightest SA trigger pull of my three CZ?s. I say this to prove that the FPB can ultimately be a non-issue to achieve an incredible trigger pull, but it will always create a longer trigger reset by the vary nature of its mechanical function.
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/fbd44aef20c884d583c15f226774e6d3.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161103/135a420f2d66bf1060de78c324da1184.jpg)

Step 7.5: 11 lb hammer spring
    Since I had created the posts already I didn't want this to get buried in the following pages of the thread. So it goes here, before conclusions. I put in the 11.5 lb hammer spring for testing. I'm going to see if I get reliable ignition with all primers I can test. Here's the results of the impact on trigger pull weights. I sure hope this works because the trigger pull is stupid awesome! Especially the Double Action!
    I called David (Schmeky) to ask him about this phase of my testing. I mentioned that my Classic Compact firing pin leaves a smaller dimple on primers than this SP-01 Compact, even though I am running a 15 lb hammer spring VS a 13 lb Hammer Spring. We had a good conversation that included things like CZ running tooling a little too long, which  can impact the smoothness of the Firing Pine Channel on pistols made at the end of the tooling life, thus impacting firing pin inertia and contributing to this difference in some pistols. I was worried it had something to do with the firing pin retaining pin, but he confirmed that this would not be the case. So, the exceptional drop in trigger pull weight from installing the 11.5 lb hammer spring could still produce reliability in all primers. But, that may also be dependent on the finish of each pistol. Keep in mind there are lighter hammer springs available, so I am not necessarily pushing the extreme limits. David mentioned they have gotten some Double Action triggers down to the mid 4 lb range and they worked reliably on Federal primers for those guns, but he prefaced again that not all of the pistols will pull that off. He told me to test the Double Action for failures. If the there will be failures that is where I will see them first and most often. If I have no failures in Double Action then Single Action will be fine. As a side note, I forgot to ask if polishing the firing pin channel would improve the reliability of lower hammer spring weights by reducing friction and allowing inertia to be maintained. I'll follow up on that when I call him with some frame widths for safeties.  I am trying to explain as much as possible because the 13 lb hammer spring is the one that they say will have 100% reliability with their extended firing pin and reduced power firing pin spring, while the 11.5 lb hammer spring may not work on the hardest of primers 100% of the time. David did say he is always hesitant to give absolutes because he tells people something he has seen he then seems to see something happen that is different. Big paraphrase on my part, but basically with my trigger pull weights being very nice for the 11.5 lb hammer spring I could have 100% reliability on all primers, but there could be a pistol that doesn't at those trigger pull weights. Test your pistol with this hammer spring on many primers. If it works you're good, if not just jump back to 13 lbs. And possibly (depending on what David says) you can polish the firing pin channel for improved results, but that is speculation on my part at this point.

Step 7.5 Results:
Double action: 5 lbs 9 ounces
Single Action: 2 lbs 0.7 ounces
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161109/0ac32bf0a7de2335f14fa76634fa21b5.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161109/51843afa274e55bd62bf88d6c25ccc66.jpg)
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 01:24:34 AM
Conclusions:
     This test was full of surprises for me. I really wish I had the budget to get a disconnector and test how much it impacts the weight of the trigger pull. Ultimately, I will call Cajun Gun Works about the spring kit and see what their thoughts are about the relatively small reduction in DA trigger pull weight. Let?s be honest though, 7 lbs 11 ounces Double Action isn?t a terrible result. When I do speak to them I will append the results of that conversation.
    Ultimately, I have learned that the Competition or Race hammers play a very important role in achieving a great trigger, but I was already a proselyting evangelist for them. The aftermarket disconnectors were a surprising part that I had previously not proselytized, but now I have to give them more credit. Polishing is still essential, but it just didn?t impact pull weight like I thought it would. I still have a hard time saying it does not reduce pull weight. I really hope CZ Custom and CGW guys get on here and chime in as to why these results may have happened since they work with so many pistols (and the other fanatics like SP-01).

Best Budget Upgrades for A CZ 75 Manual Safety:
    I hear people say that you have to spend $1,000 total to make a CZ 75 nice. At this point you?ve spent as much as you would on an expensive brand like Sig. I had set out to determine if this was true or false, and it was false. Now, what gets the most bang for your buck? Keep in mind there?s all sorts of parts and upgrades available to accomplish shorter reset, reach reduction, even better triggers, etc. I am not saying those aren?t worth it, I?m just working a budget list of getting the most impact out less money.
    I want to pose another thought. Pretend you go buy an M&P. Are you going to shoot it stock? If you are a glutton for terrible triggers you will, otherwise you?re ordering an Apex trigger for around $150-$165. Let?s say you buy a Glock, same thing. Sure, you can buy one of those 3.5 lb trigger reset bars, but if you?re serious then you?re likely getting a Zev or Apex Trigger for $150-$190. Does everyone do this? No! Am I being a little sarcastic? Yes! So don?t take offence. But?... those who are reading forums (this forum specifically) and reading this thread are likely the people that would make those mods. That is my reasoning for these ?best budget recommendation? price ranges below. Competitively priced with other nice trigger upgrades for some other brands I am a little familiar with.  I?ll offer two budget options, but they aren?t the only two. You can chose any parts from either custom shop. Knowing what I know now, I would have gone with the second option.

Most Budget Friendly Upgrades:
    1- CZ Competition Hammer or CGW Race Hammer $69 - $79
    2- Hammer Strut $10
    3- 2 CGW Hammer Pins $2.50 each
    4- Firing Pin Retaining Pin CGW $5.00
    5- Reduced Power Firing Pin Spring CGW $5.00
    6- 15 lb Hammer Spring  $7.00
    7- All the polishing in the tutorials on this site. If you cut corners you?ll feel it.
  Total: $101.00 - $111.00

Best Budget Friendly Option:
    1- Most Budget Friendly Upgrade Parts
    2- CGW Disconnector $38.00
  Total: $139.00 - $149.00
Disconnector Update:
After testing my CGW Disconnector and seeing no real change in trigger pull weight I redact this as the best budget friendly option. I'll leave it here for now. I am going to load up some more rounds with S&B primers and CCI primers, both being known to be a little or pretty hard. Then I'll test the 11.5 lb hammer spring for reliability with the CGW extended firing pin, basically to see if there is something a little different causing more pressure with the same weight springs in this SP-01 Compact model. I'll post updates  as I complete testing.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: bmadd on November 03, 2016, 08:35:42 AM
I know this took a lot of work. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 09:09:23 AM
I know this took a lot of work. Thanks for sharing.

Well, thank you sir! And you're most welcome! Just trying to give back a little, since I've received so much help.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: cntrydawwwg on November 03, 2016, 09:12:14 AM
Great write up Scarlet Pistol. [emoji106]
    As to your DA pull, with what you've done, I'd say your right where you belong.
     All my pistols (Rami BD, P01, SP01 Tactical, and Phantom) sit at 8lb or a little less with the 13# hammer spring.
    But..... the kicker here is your baseline. Amazing that you started off with a 9 lb 4.3 oz DA  [emoji50]
   All of mine have been around 14lb when stock!
   Great job[emoji6]
   
   
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Genin on November 03, 2016, 09:57:22 AM
Thank you for the very detailed write up. I appreciate the work you put into it. After shooting my SP-01 Compact completely stock yesterday, I just don't see myself changing a thing besides the sights. Even the sights are kind of decent. Mine have a larger green painted dot, with two smaller yellow painted dots on the rear sight. All glow with charging, but the front is larger and brighter. Kind of a nice, so I'm not too worried or in a rush.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 10:32:18 AM
Great write up Scarlet Pistol. [emoji106]
    As to your DA pull, with what you've done, I'd say your right where you belong.
     All my pistols (Rami BD, P01, SP01 Tactical, and Phantom) sit at 8lb or a little less with the 13# hammer spring.
    But..... the kicker here is your baseline. Amazing that you started off with a 9 lb 4.3 oz DA  [emoji50]
   All of mine have been around 14lb when stock!
   Great job[emoji6]

Thanks cntrydawwg! And thank you for chiming in about the DA pull weight. I guess I am spoiled with my SP-01 and its stupid good DA pull with all the goodies. I am thinking that had my sear not had that burr to make the SA break feel as gritty as it did then my stock pistol wouldn't have bee that bad at all. I wonder if the other SP-01 Compacts are coming with DA pulls around 9-10 lbs.

Thank you for the very detailed write up. I appreciate the work you put into it. After shooting my SP-01 Compact completely stock yesterday, I just don't see myself changing a thing besides the sights. Even the sights are kind of decent. Mine have a larger green painted dot, with two smaller yellow painted dots on the rear sight. All glow with charging, but the front is larger and brighter. Kind of a nice, so I'm not too worried or in a rush.
I'm stoked to hear more good things about these SP-01 Compacts, glad you are enjoying yours! I would feel pretty bad had I gotten excited and then helped convince other people to buy them and then they were crappy...
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: jim.c on November 03, 2016, 11:49:19 AM
As usual you did a terrific job. This forum and folks like you who are so open to sharing information make this the best forum out there. Thanks, Jim
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: rhart on November 03, 2016, 07:31:24 PM
Good job Scarlet.

I'm not surprised that all the polishing did not reduce trigger pull weights. I've quit polishing them and just let them polish themselves through the firing cycles. The most bang for your effort is the springs, extended firing pin, a disco and comp hammer.

I wish I had a trigger pull gauge to test my trigger now that I've done the upgrades on my SP01 Compact. It feels similar to the results you show, but I don't know for sure. I did shoot it today after installing the SRS and comp hammer last night. Another two hundred trouble free rounds shooting FM 115gr HP ammo. I'm tickled shirtless!
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 08:23:54 PM
Good job Scarlet.

I'm not surprised that all the polishing did not reduce trigger pull weights. I've quit polishing them and just let them polish themselves through the firing cycles. The most bang for your effort is the springs, extended firing pin, a disco and comp hammer.

I wish I had a trigger pull gauge to test my trigger now that I've done the upgrades on my SP01 Compact. It feels similar to the results you show, but I don't know for sure. I did shoot it today after installing the SRS and comp hammer last night. Another two hundred trouble free rounds shooting FM 115gr HP ammo. I'm tickled shirtless!
Thanks rhart!
I still love the smoothness from polishing, but I think I'm a trigger snob now... So I'll still Polish, just knowing it only accomplishes the smoothness.
I'm going to finally get out and shoot mine this weekend. It's fantastic to hear how reliable yours has been as you've stacked up the round count, but I get jealous that I haven't had the chance to even shoot mine
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: copemech on November 03, 2016, 09:11:48 PM
Quote
Step 2 Reults:
Double Action: 9 lbs 7.8 ounces
Single Action: 4 lbs 12 ounces
    I?ll be honest, I didn?t expect these results. I pulled the trigger over and over with the gauge. I had re-applied the same lube I had used when I cleaned and re-lubed the pistol after I brought it home. Furthermore, the trigger pull on double action felt better. I was sure it would have dropped the pull weight at least a little.  As with all sections, I am ready to hear thoughts and feedback. While this polishing is essential, maybe just these two parts alone won?t make any difference in the pull weight, just feel?   


This may indeed be one area where you have actually increased the contact surface areas on the trigger bar and added a bit of drag. Although the smoothness was increased, the perceived weight seemed less than before.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 03, 2016, 11:20:13 PM
This may indeed be one area where you have actually increased the contact surface areas on the trigger bar and added a bit of drag. Although the smoothness was increased, the perceived weight seemed less than before.

Just a thought.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes sense. I don't have any other explanations. Thanks Copemech!
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: MGSchindel on November 04, 2016, 08:35:25 PM
Thanks for the write-up.  I just bought the same railed steel-frame compact pistol with manual safety, and have already ordered roughly the same bag of goodies to work it up with, along with the addition of a steel guide rod (the polymer one in my other CZ 75C Compact was totally warped and crooked beyond belief after just 700 rounds) and a CZ 97 "thick" trigger (I just can't do the recurve trigger, it pinches my finger to death and back).

One thing I DID notice, from extra mod parts I already have here, is that a 13 lb hammer spring does NOT reduce the DA pull weight in the compacts nearly as much as it does in the full-sized guns.  Of course, the compacts have the shorter grip frame, shorter hammer strut, and shorter hammer spring retainer plug. I would bet that the 13 lb hammer spring is actually more compressed in the compact guns than it is in a full-sized CZ.  I suspect that running an 11.5 lb hammer spring in a compact will feel more like the 13 lb hammer spring feels in a full-sized CZ......Some measurements of the hammer spring's length while installed, in both a compact and a full sized gun, and with the hammer both cocked and uncocked, would probably tell the story there....And if not, there might be another reason for this effect. I can notice it just by how hard it is to cock the hammer manually, between the compact and a full sized gun with the same 13 lb hammer spring installed in each.

I'll also add that the hammer hooks on this compact CZ's stock hammer are rougher, and have worse camming, than on any other CZ I've bought, and the sear is the roughest I've seen. I may have to add a custom sear to this pistol, depending how the hammer install goes.....

I can't wait to slick up and upgrade this chunky little sucker, and get it to the range!  When you have Cajun and CZC parts on the way, the mail seems SOOOOOO slow...LOL!!!!!
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: M1A4ME on November 04, 2016, 09:15:02 PM
Then, there is the effect of lubrication.

Have you ever heard of some stuff called TriFlow?

No data - just feel.  Many years ago I used that on my back up gun.  A stainless steel Ruger Speed Six .357 with a 2&3/4" barrel and bobbed hammer (pocket carry - duty jacket in the winter, jeans pocket in the summer).  You could feel the difference in how smooth it operated with Triflow vs. regular gun oil.

I sprayed it on my M1A exactly one time.  Third shot after spraying Triflow on it the extractor flew out (I was lucky to find it - lying in a sand pit shooting and no one was moving around to step on it/cover it up).  The only time in all those years (bought it in 1978) that the extractor launched itself out of the bolt.  I removed the bolt, wiped it down good and shot it dry to finish up my groups.

I used to show the kids how well it worked by using it on hot wheels cars.  Do a distance trial (remember playing with hot wheels when you were a kid?) as is, then put a drop of Triflow on the axle at each wheel, spin the wheel a couple times, then repeat the distance trial.  The cars always go measureably farther.

I need to dig some of that up and try it on a CZ with the trigger pull ga.

And polishing parts?  It makes me feel better, too.  If the parts "wear in" with some use then polishing the parts first gets you to a better functioning fire arm sooner.  What's not to like about that?

As to the difference in trigger pulls from one gun to another?  Every gun is different.  It is.  My P07 is bone stock inside the frame/slide.  The SA pull is 3&1/4 lb and DA pull is about 8&3/4 lb.  I measured one of the CZ 75 compacts the other day and it ran the dial off the scale (somewhere past either 12 or 15 lbs.) for the DA pull.  Just unreal.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 04, 2016, 10:05:25 PM
So tonight I quickly took apart my SP-01 and my Compact SP-01. I took the CGW disconnector out of my full size and put it in the compact. No measurable difference in trigger pull... My hypothesis is debunked about the disconnector.

MGSchnindel may have it right with a difference in the spring being compressed more. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that they are the same but maybe they are slightly different. Other than that M1A4ME could have it with just the difference from one pistol to the next...
Title: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: srREXed on November 04, 2016, 10:12:49 PM
Edit post:  so you failed to mention the difference between 'actual' trigger pull weight and 'perceived' pull weight. All that polishing makes for a lighter 'perceived' trigger pull compared to something that may pull the same but does it with some grit. Good write up. I'm not patient enough to spell it out. It should make for a good go to for the do it yourself guys and new gun guys. Sticky?
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: jim.c on November 04, 2016, 10:24:57 PM
Thanks for the write-up.  I just bought the same railed steel-frame compact pistol with manual safety, and have already ordered roughly the same bag of goodies to work it up with, along with the addition of a steel guide rod (the polymer one in my other CZ 75C Compact was totally warped and crooked beyond belief after just 700 rounds) and a CZ 97 "thick" trigger (I just can't do the recurve trigger, it pinches my finger to death and back).

One thing I DID notice, from extra mod parts I already have here, is that a 13 lb hammer spring does NOT reduce the DA pull weight in the compacts nearly as much as it does in the full-sized guns.  Of course, the compacts have the shorter grip frame, shorter hammer strut, and shorter hammer spring retainer plug. I would bet that the 13 lb hammer spring is actually more compressed in the compact guns than it is in a full-sized CZ.  I suspect that running an 11.5 lb hammer spring in a compact will feel more like the 13 lb hammer spring feels in a full-sized CZ......Some measurements of the hammer spring's length while installed, in both a compact and a full sized gun, and with the hammer both cocked and uncocked, would probably tell the story there....And if not, there might be another reason for this effect. I can notice it just by how hard it is to cock the hammer manually, between the compact and a full sized gun with the same 13 lb hammer spring installed in each.

I'll also add that the hammer hooks on this compact CZ's stock hammer are rougher, and have worse camming, than on any other CZ I've bought, and the sear is the roughest I've seen. I may have to add a custom sear to this pistol, depending how the hammer install goes.....

I can't wait to slick up and upgrade this chunky little sucker, and get it to the range!  When you have Cajun and CZC parts on the way, the mail seems SOOOOOO slow...LOL!!!!!

Very interesting theory about the hammer springs. It makes sense. Maybe when I order parts I'll order both a 13 # and 11.5# hammer spring to test the difference. I wonder if the lighter hammer spring will work 100% on all primers as long as you have the extended firing pin and reduced power firing pin spring ? Also are the hammer springs for the compact shorter to begin with to compensate for the shorter grip length ?
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: srREXed on November 04, 2016, 10:35:31 PM
So tonight I quickly took apart my SP-01 and my Compact SP-01. I took the CGW disconnector out of my full size and put it in the compact. No measurable difference in trigger pull... My hypothesis is debunked about the disconnector.

MGSchnindel may have it right with a difference in the spring being compressed more. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that they are the same but maybe they are slightly different. Other than that M1A4ME could have it with just the difference from one pistol to the next...
Your trigger reset directly correlates with your trigger pull during multiple shot engagements... You're only half debunked, weight and perception. Weight and perception.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: RandyMan on November 06, 2016, 08:45:33 PM
Great writeup!  Thank you!
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 06, 2016, 10:39:58 PM
Great writeup!  Thank you!
You're welcome!

Side note: I updated "Step 6" and the "Conclusions" sections regarding my test with the CGW disconnector.  I am going to test the 11.5 lb hammer spring with harder primers like CCI and see what happens.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: SlvrDragon50 on November 06, 2016, 10:51:23 PM
I've been using the 11.5 lb hammer spring with Blazer without an issue. Will be trying some Aguila when I get it in as well.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 06, 2016, 11:10:29 PM
I've been using the 11.5 lb hammer spring with Blazer without an issue. Will be trying some Aguila when I get it in as well.
Good to know and keep us posted! Still with your 85 Combat right? I wish I had a tool that measured impact pressure that I could insert and test the hammer strike to more easily conduct this portion of the test. Anyone know of such a tool?
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: SlvrDragon50 on November 06, 2016, 11:37:10 PM
Yup. Though now I have my eyes on the Shadow 2 :D

Don't think my wallet will allow for it though :(
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: 1SOW on November 07, 2016, 01:23:17 AM
Do you need to know how hard the hammer strikes,  or do you really  want to know how hard the firing pin strikes with that hammer?
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 07, 2016, 01:24:51 AM
Yup. Though now I have my eyes on the Shadow 2 :D

Don't think my wallet will allow for it though :(
Haha you and me both comrade!
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Oldwolf on November 07, 2016, 10:10:37 AM
There is a lot of great information here. Thanks for posting this and taking the time to do it!
Maybe I missed it, but what was the purpose of a new hammer strut?

I have been confused with all the upgrade parts available and trying to decide what should I do to a new manual safety CZ75.
Sure, I could buy the $300 CGW upgrade kit, and it would be great, but do I really need all that stuff?

Now I am thinking I could just go with your "budget list", and add the reach reduction kit and short-reset system, and be satisfied with a few $ to spare.
Or, just forget about the trigger reduction and reset kits, and save big $.
Decisions, decisions.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 07, 2016, 11:29:00 AM
Do you need to know how hard the hammer strikes,  or do you really  want to know how hard the firing pin strikes with that hammer?

Good point. Ideally it would be how hard the firing pin strikes. But, in this case since I want to see if the 13 lb hammer spring is being more compressed in this SP-01 Compact as compared to my Classic Compact or full size SP-01 I think the force of the hammer striking would suffice. I could be wrong though, I'm just trying to go through a process of elimination. If you know of a tool that does that too I would happily hear about it and try to wrangle one up.

There is a lot of great information here. Thanks for posting this and taking the time to do it!
Maybe I missed it, but what was the purpose of a new hammer strut?

The new hammer strut is a recommendation because the pins holding the hammer and strut and disconnector together are pretty difficult to get out. The only way I have successfully got them out is to use the punch from CGW (there's others out there that's just the one I got), freeze the groups of parts overnight in a plastic bag, put my armorers block on cement, them hammer those out with a brass hammer. I've actually gotten that to work enough I wouldn't necessarily recommend the new hammer strut. But definitely get 2 new pins to put it all back together.

If you get the short-reset system and reach reduction just be sure to read those product pages. If memory serves me CGW sends a unique disconnector if you order both or they say to call them and have them include it. You can have them send the Short-Reset System with the extended firing pin, I almost think it is standard, but I haven't looked for a bit. Ultimately, you can get them a call and they will clarify any questions you may have and get you taken care of. I'll tell you what, shooting my SP-01 Compact this weekend and I couldn't be happier. Spending the time on my trigger turned out to not be just cosmetic. I didn't experience any trigger bite. While I thought I wouldn't like it much after dry firing, I actually didn't mind it at all.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Oldwolf on November 07, 2016, 12:07:16 PM
But the bottom line I am reading, I think, is that I could install a RHK Race Hammer Kit, with strut, do some polishing, and be pretty content. Call it Phase I, if you will.

https://cajungunworks.com/product/race-hammer-kit/

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 07, 2016, 01:55:27 PM
But the bottom line I am reading, I think, is that I could install a RHK Race Hammer Kit, with strut, do some polishing, and be pretty content. Call it Phase I, if you will.
https://cajungunworks.com/product/race-hammer-kit/

Correct.
Order 2 of these, so you don't have to use the OEM staked pins when putting it back together. Its a waste of time to try using those OEM pins (tried that, fail).
https://cajungunworks.com/product/hpin/

Make sure you have a punch like this to get out the hammer pins and trigger pin. (Tried without one several times, muchando fail!)
https://cajungunworks.com/product/sp-forged-steel-starter-punch/

Freeze the OEM Hammer, Strut, and Disconnector group (I put mine in a zip lock bag with the air pressed out). Then take it out and immediately put on a bench block that is on something sturdy, like cement, and hammer out. Using that starter punch to get them started. (Broke punches, cracked off wood from a bench, never succeeded until I did this.)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0047WKF84/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Since you are going to be polishing (which I still think is completely worth the time and effort) you will be removing the trigger and trigger bar. You'll use that starter punch for that as well. It's a total waste of your time to use the OEM trigger retaining pin. Order this floating trigger pin to save all sorts of time and grief.
https://cajungunworks.com/product/tr-pin-cgws-exclusive-floating-trigger-pin/

Lastly, while you are in phase 1. For a few bucks you should snag one of the CGW firing pin retaining pins. I didn't get a picture of my OEM part, but I probably dry fired on it 10 times (forgot to rack my slide and pick up the snap cap). There was a very pronounced indentation from just that little slip of the mind. For $5 this part is worth it so you don't have to worry about the OEM part getting messed up. Plus, you'll likely be polishing the FPB so you'll be removing the OEM pin anyways. Still use a snap cap to prolong the part's life, but CGW says these take something like 1,000 Dry Fires. Just my opinion to save some grief and brace against the potential mental slip.
https://cajungunworks.com/product/61100-tempered-spring-steel-firing-pin-retaining-pin/

Its a few more parts than just the kit you are looking at, but from my own learning experiences of not getting hammer pins out, ordering new struts because of that, breaking punches trying to removing hammer pins, destroying OEM firing pin retaining pins, and so forth --- I think those are the bare necessities. BTW do NOT use a rubber mallet (also a learned mistake). Tried to include my failure examples to illustrate why I make a few extra recommendations. Hope this was helpful and not too long winded.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: rhart on November 07, 2016, 02:01:03 PM
Do you need to know how hard the hammer strikes,  or do you really  want to know how hard the firing pin strikes with that hammer?

I imagine it would be easier to measure how hard the firing pin strikes. It seems to me that all you would have to do is measure the depth on fired casings (various primers) with different springs. To determine whether the compact is (pre?) compressing the spring more it seems that simply removing the grips and measuring the springs on both guns in both the hammer down and hammer back configuration?
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 07, 2016, 03:04:18 PM
Do you need to know how hard the hammer strikes,  or do you really  want to know how hard the firing pin strikes with that hammer?

I imagine it would be easier to measure how hard the firing pin strikes. It seems to me that all you would have to do is measure the depth on fired casings (various primers) with different springs. To determine whether the compact is (pre?) compressing the spring more it seems that simply removing the grips and measuring the springs on both guns in both the hammer down and hammer back configuration?

I think that is the easiest route I can take... I think I have S&B, Winchester Magnum, and CCI in my little stash. I'll work on loading up a bunch of test rounds this week and try this test out. Hopefully over the weekend I'll have time to get out. If anyone has an explanation, so I can avoid this test that would be pretty awesome! Maybe just measuring the springs before they are in the pistols and then when they are in the pistols would be enough. I know that was mentioned earlier...
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: M1A4ME on November 08, 2016, 09:06:18 AM
Be aware, when doing the pencil test, that repeated use of the same pencil starts to give disappointing results when the firing pin has made enough of a dent/hole in the wooden end of the pencil.  Had one of my sons call the other day to ask what had changed on his Compacts.  He said they did fine at first, then, over time, the pencil wasn't jumping out of the barrel anymore.

Change pencils, good results once again.

Why don't I like striker fired pistols?  One reason is light strikes vs. hammer fired guns.  Too much gives you a bang, too little can be a big problem.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: rhart on November 08, 2016, 09:20:42 AM
Pencil may yield qualitative results. Measuring penetration on actual variety of primers will give quantitative data. Numbers are always better IMHO.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: schmeky on November 08, 2016, 10:26:18 AM
Great little informational thread by Scarlett Pistol on upgrades and how they pan out.  One thing to remember is no 2 pistols will respond to the same upgrades in the same way.   Many times the differences can be rather dramatic.

On the primer impact/hammer inertia question, we have found the best way to "measure" this is by using a common dial indicator and measuring the depth of the indent in the primer. 
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 08, 2016, 11:20:50 AM


Great little information by Scarlett Pistol on upgrades and how they pan out.  One thing to remember is no 2 pistols will respond to the same upgrades in the same way.   Many times the differences can be rather dramatic.

On the primer impact/hammer inertia question, we have found the best way to "measure" this is by using a common dial indicator and measuring the depth of the indent in the primer.

 Schmeky, thanks for chiming in! Definitely good to hear your reassurance on the outcome. Ill proceed and use your advice on the hammer inertia.
 Please feel free to let me know if I missed something or could improve my testing in any way. I know you guys do so much testing and just don't have the time to document it all for us. This took quite a bit of time to write up, so I definitely have a new level of appreciation for when you make time to share your work!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Oldwolf on November 08, 2016, 01:12:58 PM
But the bottom line I am reading, I think, is that I could install a RHK Race Hammer Kit, with strut, do some polishing, and be pretty content. Call it Phase I, if you will.
https://cajungunworks.com/product/race-hammer-kit/

Correct.
Order 2 of these, so you don't have to use the OEM staked pins when putting it back together. Its a waste of time to try using those OEM pins (tried that, fail).
https://cajungunworks.com/product/hpin/

Make sure you have a punch like this to get out the hammer pins and trigger pin. (Tried without one several times, muchando fail!)
https://cajungunworks.com/product/sp-forged-steel-starter-punch/

Freeze the OEM Hammer, Strut, and Disconnector group (I put mine in a zip lock bag with the air pressed out). Then take it out and immediately put on a bench block that is on something sturdy, like cement, and hammer out. Using that starter punch to get them started. (Broke punches, cracked off wood from a bench, never succeeded until I did this.)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0047WKF84/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Since you are going to be polishing (which I still think is completely worth the time and effort) you will be removing the trigger and trigger bar. You'll use that starter punch for that as well. It's a total waste of your time to use the OEM trigger retaining pin. Order this floating trigger pin to save all sorts of time and grief.
https://cajungunworks.com/product/tr-pin-cgws-exclusive-floating-trigger-pin/

Lastly, while you are in phase 1. For a few bucks you should snag one of the CGW firing pin retaining pins. I didn't get a picture of my OEM part, but I probably dry fired on it 10 times (forgot to rack my slide and pick up the snap cap). There was a very pronounced indentation from just that little slip of the mind. For $5 this part is worth it so you don't have to worry about the OEM part getting messed up. Plus, you'll likely be polishing the FPB so you'll be removing the OEM pin anyways. Still use a snap cap to prolong the part's life, but CGW says these take something like 1,000 Dry Fires. Just my opinion to save some grief and brace against the potential mental slip.
https://cajungunworks.com/product/61100-tempered-spring-steel-firing-pin-retaining-pin/

Its a few more parts than just the kit you are looking at, but from my own learning experiences of not getting hammer pins out, ordering new struts because of that, breaking punches trying to removing hammer pins, destroying OEM firing pin retaining pins, and so forth --- I think those are the bare necessities. BTW do NOT use a rubber mallet (also a learned mistake). Tried to include my failure examples to illustrate why I make a few extra recommendations. Hope this was helpful and not too long winded.

I appreciate you taking the time to specifically make recommendations for my project. My plan is to modify my ?outdoors? gun for use in the field, so I don?t need target pistol features, just better performance for defensive purposes. I will take your advice and get the other parts you mentioned, they look to increase reliability, while keeping most of the OEM parts, which is what I was after for my ?Phase I?. I am discussing this project in another thread: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=82718.0
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 08, 2016, 01:32:12 PM


I appreciate you taking the time to specifically make recommendations for my project. My plan is to modify my ?outdoors? gun for use in the field, so I don?t need target pistol features, just better performance for defensive purposes. I will take your advice and get the other parts you mentioned, they look to increase reliability, while keeping most of the OEM parts, which is what I was after for my ?Phase I?. I am discussing this project in another thread: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=82718.0
Ah, I remember that thread. Glad to help, just paying it forward after receiving so much help from the forum members. Excited to see how your pistol turns out!


Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: rhart on November 08, 2016, 05:28:58 PM
I just got back from putting another 230 rounds through my "SP01 Compact." This time I ran 200 rounds of 147gr RN reloads through without a hiccup. These reloads were pretty rough - some looked like they had two crimps in them, one at the end of the casing and one in the middle. I was sure I would have problems with them, but I didn't. The little chunk of steel chewed them up and spit them out like nobody's business.

I then ran 30 rounds of new FM 147gr XTP JHPs through it that were in my bag. I did have one round of the XTP that failed to go all the way into battery at first, but a light assist from my thumb seated it just fine (I put a lighter recoil spring in and this may not have occurred with the OEM spring).
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 08, 2016, 07:38:54 PM
Updated step 7 with a step 7.5 to put in the results from putting in the 11.5 lb hammer spring. Ugh, I hope this works. The Double Action is so good it is stupid!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: rhart on November 08, 2016, 07:57:52 PM
Wow! 5.9lb double action - I hope it ignites all primers. If it does I may install one on mine - already have the spring. That single action is a little light for carry though.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 08, 2016, 09:35:14 PM
Wow! 5.9lb double action - I hope it ignites all primers. If it does I may install one on mine - already have the spring. That single action is a little light for carry though.
  Yeah, the Double action has probably ruined me.... Seriously ruined me!
   One of my first CZ's was a Tactical Sport. Put a Competition hammer in it and that thing was the next level of Single Action. Got used to it pretty quick and I've never had a problem with accidental discharges, unplanned double taps, etc. on ultra light triggers. It put me at a different level of trigger awareness. Probably helped that I was still really new to pistols, so I didn't have a life time of heavy and long triggers built into subconscious learning. Just me though, so I would never hold it against someone for not going that light.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 08, 2016, 10:11:46 PM
One thing to remember is no 2 pistols will respond to the same upgrades in the same way.   Many times the differences can be rather dramatic.
Master Schmeky,
I put in the 11.5 lb hammer spring in. The Double Action is 5 lbs 9 ounces and the Single Action is 2 lbs. I know the Tactical Sport pistols have a single action that's less than 2 lbs and they're reliable... Is all that due to the different trigger bar? Are these trigger pull weights too dramatically low now? Or can I still proceed in testing and have it be worthwhile? Thanks again for all you're help!!
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: schmeky on November 09, 2016, 09:00:56 AM
Scarlett Pistol,

On your question about the TS trigger bar, no.  It won't fit your standard 75 series CZ anyway.  The trigger has no bearing on the trigger pull weights and outcomes, it's simply a lock work link.  TS is it's own unique model, designed to produce a light trigger pull using the standard CZ 20# hammer spring.

Oldwolf,

I am asked all the time, "what upgrades should I do to my CZ".  My standard reply is if you have to ask, you don't need to buy anything until you know what's right for you.  The best approach in this scenario is start simple and easy, then go your own direction. 
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: MattyIce on November 16, 2016, 12:00:33 AM
SCARLET! Your write-up sold a pistol. That, Sir, is impressive.

I ran down the rabbit hole guys! This is where I ended up. 

Backstory:  Nov. 6th I took home my first firearm (SP-01 Tact.) and ran 550 rounds through it. I started to get curious and found the forum. About midway through this thread I ordered the "Compact SP-01," Nov. 10th.  Lol four days... only four days. So... I've spent the last week trying my darndest to wrap my head around all the newness.

Advise?  upgrade the full size w/decocker or compact with safety?  And, is 6#ish DA/3#ish SA necessary for learning the fundamentals of comp shooting. That's the end game plan: casual competition.

I figure, the sensible thing seams that I lighten the fire mechanics on the full size, keep the compact stock.

Ultimately I will make my own decisions and don't hold others accountable for choices I make.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 16, 2016, 12:59:04 AM
SCARLET! Your write-up sold a pistol. That, Sir, is impressive.

I ran down the rabbit hole guys! This is where I ended up. 

Backstory:  Nov. 6th I took home my first firearm (SP-01 Tact.) and ran 550 rounds through it. I started to get curious and found the forum. About midway through this thread I ordered the "Compact SP-01," Nov. 10th.  Lol four days... only four days. So... I've spent the last week trying my darndest to wrap my head around all the newness.

Advise?  upgrade the full size w/decocker or compact with safety?  And, is 6#ish DA/3#ish SA necessary for learning the fundamentals of comp shooting. That's the end game plan: casual competition.

I figure, the sensible thing seams that I lighten the fire mechanics on the full size, keep the compact stock.

Ultimately I will make my own decisions and don't hold others accountable for choices I make.

Thanks.
    Haha I'm glad this has been helpful! I polish all my pistols, even if nothing else is upgraded. Makes it really smooth and its cheap to free.
    I was rather unorthodox in my learning. Tried totally self taught with YouTube videos for a while and it was a total train wreck. Signed up for a day training course before I quite pistols and it helped a lot. At that point I wanted a single action pistol instead of striker fired. I'd felt a 1911 trigger and there was no going back. But I wanted double stack... So Google searching eventually led me to CZ's and what did I do? I bought a Tactical Sport and threw a competition hammer in it. Holy smokes did I get my dream trigger! I dry fired a bunch and got live fire in a fair amount. It taught me exceptional trigger awareness. Ultimately the TS and I parted ways, just wasn't practical for me at the time. But that's why I don't mind these light triggers, I have the subconscious learning built in and I continue to dry fire to make sure I don't lose that or become lazy. So, whatever you decide, you can make it work. An upgrade I didn't mention is grip tape on the front and back strap. Makes life much better.
    For learning fundamentals... I'd say go to a local USPSA match to watch and learn. Make friends, and see if anyone there teaches a class. Getting started with some direction to make sure you're on the right path is invaluable. Don't waste time like I did.
    As for upgrades, You've read my opinions from testing thus far (competition or race hammer all day, every day, every time). See what you want to do after some rounds through each and feel free to ask questions -  about upgrades and the learning process. There isn't a better forum out there for getting help, everyone here has always pitched in and helped me a ton!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 16, 2016, 01:06:29 AM


  And, is 6#ish DA/3#ish SA necessary for learning the fundamentals of comp shooting. That's the end game plan: casual competition.

This guy is up in your state. I don't know what he is doing, but from what I can gather it's like his second year shooting USPSA and he blew it up. Placed at nationals! Anyways, whatever he figured out in his training it seems like he broke it down with Tim Ferris precision and advanced very effectively. If he would do a class on a weekend I would imagine it would be very worthwhile in getting a solid foundation of fundamentals.

https://youtu.be/s1N2xiQ7V3Q

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: SlvrDragon50 on November 16, 2016, 11:40:28 AM
He has a super detailed analysis of his videos over on Brian Enos. Very meticulous in his write ups.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 16, 2016, 01:09:25 PM
He has a super detailed analysis of his videos over on Brian Enos. Very meticulous in his write ups.
Really? That's a great find! I have the search function over there... Would you mind sharing a link to spare me the effort?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: SlvrDragon50 on November 16, 2016, 02:08:42 PM
He has a super detailed analysis of his videos over on Brian Enos. Very meticulous in his write ups.
Really? That's a great find! I have the search function over there... Would you mind sharing a link to spare me the effort?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Yup, I assumed that was how you found him. He was definitely pretty talented starting as a C class shooter and B class a month later. I think he also had the luxury of having a very good range to practice at with big bays.

http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/208466-chic-hwansik-kim/
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: MattyIce on November 19, 2016, 11:21:13 PM
He has a super detailed analysis of his videos over on Brian Enos. Very meticulous in his write ups.
Really? That's a great find! I have the search function over there... Would you mind sharing a link to spare me the effort?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Yup, I assumed that was how you found him. He was definitely pretty talented starting as a C class shooter and B class a month later. I think he also had the luxury of having a very good range to practice at with big bays.

http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/208466-chic-hwansik-kim/

Thank you. So much info. packed into that trail. After three hours of reading and videos, I will listen to your suggestion Scarlett:  I have decided to save the link for later and have scheduled one-on-ones with a friend who is in the sport.

Sorry to sidebar from the Subject.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on November 20, 2016, 12:46:06 AM
He has a super detailed analysis of his videos over on Brian Enos. Very meticulous in his write ups.
Really? That's a great find! I have the search function over there... Would you mind sharing a link to spare me the effort?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Yup, I assumed that was how you found him. He was definitely pretty talented starting as a C class shooter and B class a month later. I think he also had the luxury of having a very good range to practice at with big bays.

http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/208466-chic-hwansik-kim/

Thank you. So much info. packed into that trail. After three hours of reading and videos, I will listen to your suggestion Scarlett:  I have decided to save the link for later and have scheduled one-on-ones with a friend who is in the sport.

Sorry to sidebar from the Subject.
No worries, glad this was all helpful for you! Let us know how the practice and training goes
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Stopsign32v on January 06, 2017, 08:03:08 AM
Amazing thread and information. If this isn't a sticky it should be. I will be coming back to this thread later that is for sure. Thank you for the time and effort.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on January 06, 2017, 10:34:51 AM
Amazing thread and information. If this isn't a sticky it should be. I will be coming back to this thread later that is for sure. Thank you for the time and effort.
Glad it was helpful!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Mccian on December 17, 2017, 03:35:20 PM
I know this thread is getting long in the tooth, but excellent information and kudos for following a process, Well done......hat?s off
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on December 17, 2017, 04:44:05 PM
I know this thread is getting long in the tooth, but excellent information and kudos for following a process, Well done......hat?s off
Thanks, glad it still has some readers!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: jameslovesjammie on December 18, 2017, 08:53:12 AM
I'm trying to figure out how I missed this post!

Excellent write-up!  I just read the entire thing, beginning to end.

Thanks for the time you put into this!
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on December 18, 2017, 09:05:47 AM


I'm trying to figure out how I missed this post!

Excellent write-up!  I just read the entire thing, beginning to end.

Thanks for the time you put into this!

Thank you and it was my pleasure. I'm glad you found it in this little revival!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: MatroskinT on December 18, 2017, 10:31:45 AM
Wanted to jump on the "thank you" bang wagon.

Also, I haven't seen anyone describeing it before but I found a way to remove and and reassemble the flat magazine spring without clipping the hook from the bottom. The main part is that  hook is holding the hammer spring from jumping out.
Here is the process:
1. Assuming the grips are removed, as well as the bottom retention pin and top pin holding flat spring in place.
2. Depress the hammer spring all the way back up and wiggle the flat spring a little. It will come our without any pressure.
3. To reassemble : put the hammer spring back, push and hold it all the way in. Now insert the spring, hook part first. You will feel it catching up the hammer spring. Again, it will hold the hammer spring from flying out and you can re-install the pins now.

Hope that helps.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on December 18, 2017, 11:30:34 AM
Wanted to jump on the "thank you" bang wagon.

Also, I haven't seen anyone describeing it before but I found a way to remove and and reassemble the flat magazine spring without clipping the hook from the bottom. The main part is that  hook is holding the hammer spring from jumping out.
Here is the process:
1. Assuming the grips are removed, as well as the bottom retention pin and top pin holding flat spring in place.
2. Depress the hammer spring all the way back up and wiggle the flat spring a little. It will come our without any pressure.
3. To reassemble : put the hammer spring back, push and hold it all the way in. Now insert the spring, hook part first. You will feel it catching up the hammer spring. Again, it will hold the hammer spring from flying out and you can re-install the pins now.

Hope that helps.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Dang, I'm going to have to give this a try next time I have one with the hook. Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Joe L on December 18, 2017, 02:01:39 PM
Scarlett Pistol--I appreciate your contribution to the forum here.  Well done. 

I have been studying trigger pulls and "feel" ever since I started shooting bullseye a few years ago.  On both the 75B and the 97B"E", I started off with too light a trigger pull and have since found that, for me, I am most consistent at bullseye match speeds with 3 to 4 lb pulls that are not too crisp, but instead are very smooth.  I could shoot a Kadet with 2 lb pull frame parts just fine, but not with a 9mm slide and certainly not a .45.  I have to be able to put some pressure on the trigger without it going off unexpectedly, especially with the centerfire guns.  What I wound up doing was more sear engagement than most people like, with some strong sear springs and 17 lb hammer springs so that the triggers were predictable and felt "similar". 

My point being that precision shooters definitely have personal preferences.  We are blessed with having suppliers that can provide parts to do what we think we need and can guide us (and take our money!) as we home in on what we actually need.  Life is too short to become expert on more than one or two pistols.  And what works for me as a bullseye and long distance shooter probably won't work well for a run and gun shooter.

Thanks a bunch for your efforts.

Joe
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on December 19, 2017, 12:41:06 AM
Scarlett Pistol--I appreciate your contribution to the forum here.  Well done. 

I have been studying trigger pulls and "feel" ever since I started shooting bullseye a few years ago.  On both the 75B and the 97B"E", I started off with too light a trigger pull and have since found that, for me, I am most consistent at bullseye match speeds with 3 to 4 lb pulls that are not too crisp, but instead are very smooth.  I could shoot a Kadet with 2 lb pull frame parts just fine, but not with a 9mm slide and certainly not a .45.  I have to be able to put some pressure on the trigger without it going off unexpectedly, especially with the centerfire guns.  What I wound up doing was more sear engagement than most people like, with some strong sear springs and 17 lb hammer springs so that the triggers were predictable and felt "similar". 

My point being that precision shooters definitely have personal preferences.  We are blessed with having suppliers that can provide parts to do what we think we need and can guide us (and take our money!) as we home in on what we actually need.  Life is too short to become expert on more than one or two pistols.  And what works for me as a bullseye and long distance shooter probably won't work well for a run and gun shooter.

Thanks a bunch for your efforts.

Joe

Thanks Joe! I was trying to do some more accuracy work after getting my Witness Hunter in 10mm and it had a very smooth 3 lb trigger pull with more sear engagement like the 75 oem hammers, but minus the cambing (camming?). I thought of spending more money on a hammer with shorter hooks, but I shot it pretty well with the smooth trigger. What stumped me even more is how many people loved it and said how nice it was, even next to the shorter breaking and lighter CZC and CGW hammers. If we lived close to each other I would have driven to your range to have you try it because I think it would have been just what you're describing.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: John1125 on December 19, 2017, 08:29:26 AM
Scarlett,

I just read this for the first time yesterday , great write up. Thanks for all your help with this platform.

I was playing with factory sear / hammer hooks by cutting the height and polishing and cutting a relief cut on the sear .

I could get the pull weight down to 1lbs 8 oz . with out any follows on quite a few rounds . But after a while the sear face began to deform and it turned loose. I'm sure others have run into that .

So my question is what are your thoughts on the need of an upgraded sear (all hard through - through tool steel) ?

Do you believe you can get just as good a trigger with the factory sear just polished and not cutting or changing the angle? This is with of course a race hammer or competition hammer .

Thanks , Kirk 
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on December 19, 2017, 05:33:36 PM
Scarlett,

I just read this for the first time yesterday , great write up. Thanks for all your help with this platform.

I was playing with factory sear / hammer hooks by cutting the height and polishing and cutting a relief cut on the sear .

I could get the pull weight down to 1lbs 8 oz . with out any follows on quite a few rounds . But after a while the sear face began to deform and it turned loose. I'm sure others have run into that .

So my question is what are your thoughts on the need of an upgraded sear (all hard through - through tool steel) ?

Thanks , Kirk

That's some interesting testing! Expected results at a point. I polish my face of my sears but I am super super careful to just polish so I don't reduce the life of the sears. I haven't had any problems yet and I can only guess that I have 10k of trigger pulls on my SP-01. That being said I have a third SP-01 Compact with a sear that got some work I don't recommend. I changed the angle of the face. It's my sisters and she doesn't shoot it much so I am seeing how it will last. The other mod I am going to try is work the OEM hammer hooks to remove the camming. That can also be taken too far so the sear face just slips away from the hammer hooks. So I don't recommend it so people don't mess their stuff up. I'll work the angle carefully and see how the sear and hammer hook engagement lasts and see if I can cut the hooks down a little. Not enough to try and replicate the Competition or Race Hammers, but a sort of balance that was like my Witness Hunter.

In playing around with my sears and hammer hooks there are to areas that cause rough triggers. The first is the bottom edge of the sear face. It is very acute and sometimes feels like it almost has a little lip. This really catches on the rough edges on the hammer hook faces. The second are the faces of the hammer hooks. Those are the biggest reason for rough feeling Single Action triggers on CZ's in my experiences.

All that being said... I would love a sear that is hard through and through! Is that how they make the CGW sear? I feel like some careful polishing on the sear face that does not remove material can help a great deal, but the biggest improvement would be for CZ to smooth the hammer hook faces before they install them to the pistols. Then we wouldn't need to really mess with the sear face or worry about the extra nice sear. While the extra nice sear would be awesome, I think it is the second worse offender of the Single Action trigger pulls.


Do you believe you can get just as good a trigger with the factory sear just polished and not cutting or changing the angle? This is with of course a race hammer or competition hammer .

I might have answered this as I rambled about some of my testing and playing around... but here it is. With the factory sears I have modified (maybe 20 of them now?) I believe just polishing them will generally be sufficient. The few that had those little lips on the bottom face of the sear were easy to fix and didn't require cutting or changing the angle. Now, I have had one pistol that had a weird tolerance difference and even with the Competition Hammer there was still major camming, but this is an outlier.

I polish with oiled sand paper that is 800, 1000 and 2000, then I hit it with Flitz. Yes, 800 can remove material, so I am very careful and soft. I have also started "seasoning" my trigger pull after I get the contact points polished. I basically assemble the pistol and cock the hammer. Then I drip Flitz in the action where the sear and hammer interact and make sure it is all up in the contact areas. I press against the hammer very firmly and pull the trigger (the slide is on). I repeat maybe 50 to 100 times. The flitz can dry and I keep going. Then I apply more Flitz. I do this in DA as well and get the Flitz down between the hammer and frame. It is a freaking mess and I have to break the entire thing down to parts and clean it very well. Doing this after polishing the contact areas but before the major deep clean to get all the Flitz off the parts is a good time. Not only does "seasoning" enhance the polishing that was done, but it is doing it exactly where the parts mate together for the pistol. It's like a super "break in". I'm running through the explanation and probably not doing it justice... but an old friend and gunsmith taught me this one and it is excellent. Did it to my pre-b restoration pistol. Even with a SA trigger pull that moves the sear cage so much that you can easily see the safety moving as the trigger is pulled it is still smooth and feels incredible. Yes, the sear cage is pinned and it still does this. This huge side note was just a way to further help smooth that Single Action trigger pull.

Swinging back around to the sear face being cut. There is a balance of the angles. The caming is a result of that balance. Shorter hammer hooks and no cam could result in slipping. The cam can be eliminated via the hammer hooks or the sear face. With the CGW and CZC hammers there is such a smaller contact face that it is hard to say we would want to remove much. Scott removed just a little for me on a CGW hammer. They have shorter hooks, but I think they leave a little more angle for more cam than the CZC Competition hammers. My theory is that they can ever so slightly work the hooks to drop the hammer pull weight if requested, thus giving them a little more flexibility for modifications. After Scott did his thing and then I pinned my sear cage the trigger pull weight is consistently 1 lb 14 ounces. I've never had a hammer follow. That is in the 1911 killer SP-01 Compact. When 1911 lovers shoot that and I tell them I was trying to compete with 1911's  they get strange looks on their faces. Then I realize that most of them have 1911's with triggers that don't even compare to how nice this one has become. Scott was right that there would be hurt feelings on the range and I've have quite a few offers on that pistol O0. That is all to explain what was accomplished without changing angles on the sear face, but rather a little touch up on the angle of the hammer hooks.

Whew, I way over explained this whole conversation. I just don't know if there is a right or wrong answer, there are just different ways of getting to an end result. I've done it without cutting the angle on the sear, but rather the angle on the hammer hooks. If the OEM hammers had smooth hammer hooks and I could get a sear that was hardened all the way through then I may just get the sear and cut the angle on the sear, like you were experimenting with. The part may be cheaper... But cutting the hammer hooks down has a mechanical limit and the aftermarket hammers raise the bed on the hammer where the sear wrests so they avoid the issues with cutting hammer hooks down too far. All that being said, a little cutting the hammer hooks down and then smoothing their faces and then changing the angle on a sear face that is hardnened all the way through would produce an incredible SA trigger pull! My guess is that the market for that level of work would be small, as people would rather just get the nice CZC or CGW hammers and the CGW sear for fitting.

Dang, gotta run back to work. I'll proof this tonight since I got carried away. This is a lot of "thinking out loud", as if I was chatting with you (the only problem is you're not here in person to interject and stop my rambling). Can't wait to hear your (and everyone elses) thoughts since I know there are lots of members who have tested and played around.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: John1125 on December 19, 2017, 09:55:57 PM
Well I guess that I would assume that the CGW sears are tool steel and hardened to certain number . They appear to me to be of an angle that eliminates any camming and of course the hammer hooks are cut to a minimum.

I was copying those dimensions as best I could with a set of factory sear/ hammer. The first thing that I noticed was the factory sear ledge on the hammer was a bit different than the race hammer , therefore the cut of the relief angle (of course as you know 1911 guy here) so that is where I got that idea.

I kept on cutting the relief angle and the hooks down to where I had a very minimal sear engagement . And everything was fine with no follow but the sear nose rounded off and then did not hold. I have ran into this on 1911 parts that were MIM , they would be Ok for a while then the trigger would begin to show up with creep. It is my understanding that MIM parts are only hard on the surface , not well enough informed to know for sure but that seems to be true from my experience.

Now all that was simply playing with my own gun and not anything I was going to carry or use any where but at my own little range and even then with extreme caution and loading single rounds then moving on up from there.

One of the truths that I apply to the cz platform is the sear cage and sear spring is not effected by slide inertia as is the 1911 or hi power platform that both have a long leaf spring . Or at least not nearly as much as those platforms . 
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: John1125 on December 19, 2017, 10:06:26 PM
Oh and this was confirmed by the boys at CGW , in the same way a 1911 sear / hook engagement is set up is the same with the cz 's - the very edge or top point of the hammer hooks ride on the face of the sear. Thats important to remember when setting these up.

Kirk
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on December 20, 2017, 02:24:09 AM
I've never gotten a CGW sear, so am I understanding that the angle of the sear face that engages the hammer hooks is slightly less than the OEM sears? I knew this about the hammer hooks but this is new news about the sear if that is correct.

I can't remember if I shared this with you when we were messaging a while back... But it is worth posting all the same. Such a cool conversation with Schmeky and Stuart with so much problem solving and great information about this same subject.


EDIT: Here's the link I meant to insert last night.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=37364.msg204992#msg204992
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: John1125 on December 20, 2017, 08:55:42 AM
I don't have a comparitor or any way of knowing for sure on their sear/ hammer geometry, but I would say that the angle is in fact a neutral engagement, since nothing moves (hammer) .

Maybe some others here will add to this.

Kirk 
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Kronut_King on January 21, 2018, 05:24:07 PM
I've been lurking on these forums for a few months now, but I made an account to thank you for doing all this work. Keep it up!
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on January 21, 2018, 05:41:21 PM
I've been lurking on these forums for a few months now, but I made an account to thank you for doing all this work. Keep it up!
Oh dang, thank you and you're welcome!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Tyerone on January 21, 2018, 06:24:08 PM
Welcome to forum!  Don't be bashful to up your post counter!
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Kronut_King on January 21, 2018, 10:09:08 PM
I've been lurking on these forums for a few months now, but I made an account to thank you for doing all this work. Keep it up!
Oh dang, thank you and you're welcome!
Absolutely! I do have one question, I get pretty consistent trigger bite on my CZ 75 BD using a CGW Race Hammer. How would you suggest I remedy this, altering the hammer or the grip tang? I apologize if this has been answered, and I'm considering sending it out to CGW for the grip tang and a bushing anyways. Appreciate it!

Welcome to forum!  Don't be bashful to up your post counter!
Thank you for the warm welcome! I won't be shy, although I could spend my first 100 posts just thanking the wonderful contributions that people have made on this forum.
Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on January 22, 2018, 12:35:58 AM


Absolutely! I do have one question, I get pretty consistent trigger bite on my CZ 75 BD using a CGW Race Hammer. How would you suggest I remedy this, altering the hammer or the grip tang? I apologize if this has been answered, and I'm considering sending it out to CGW for the grip tang and a bushing anyways. Appreciate it!


Hmmm... I've heard of that with the P-01 but not with the 75 BD. You may want to get the CZ Custom Competition Hammer. It has a different shape that should prevent hammer bite. Reworking the grip will give a better feel, but not solve the hammer bite.

I took a break and couldn't find the thread where the member was asking about this. So here is the quick comparison video I shot for him. Keep in mind he has a P-01 or PCR so they have a beavertail that is not in my group of pistols. Hope this at least give reference though. You'd need a longer beavertail or the Competition hammer to eliminate hammer bite.

https://youtu.be/q-oWNWKlAkM

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Testing the Impact of Trigger Upgrades
Post by: Joe L on January 22, 2018, 06:54:03 AM
I can't add much more to this excellent post from Scarlett Pistol, but I'll give it a shot. 

The CGW sear and hammer are hardened all the way through the material.  The reason why I don't have much to add is that I have only one 75B and I modified it six years ago with a bunch of CGW parts, converted it to SAO, and have been shooting it pretty much unmodified and rarely cleaned since.  I don't remember exactly what parts I put in it.  As a .22 Kadet host, the 75B frame parts were not touched for several years and maybe 40k rounds.  There was no detectable change in trigger feel or pull (a little over 2 lb) weight over that time.  Under high magnification, there was no wear at the sear/hammer hook interface that I could see or feel.  I changed the hammer and sear to get the pull weight up to over 3 lb so that I could shoot the 9mm slide (after the 10x bushing install) on that frame.  I kept the old parts and will put them in a 75B frame if I ever dedicate one to the Kadet slide.  I might even show the old parts to CGW when I visit this year, even though David already knows there isn't really anything to see, just like new. 

It took years for me to understand what I needed in trigger "feel" for me to be the most consistent with the pistols.  For me, trigger reach, finger placement, and the ability to put some pressure on the trigger without it going off are best, thus the ugly grip modifications, etc.  This is why I can't pick up a small carry gun and subconsciously shoot it well, as demonstrated in the carry gun video posted yesterday.  I have to "think" about how to place my finger and how much I can preload the trigger on the little Kahr subcompact.  No problem with the fat P-07!  This is also why I liked the P-10C when I first picked it up--one can put a lot of pressure on that trigger without it going off, but it was rough from the factory, just like my P-07!

Joe