The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: bluedev84 on November 13, 2016, 09:04:37 PM
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This is one of those topics that seems to really divide folks......so keeping in the spirit of this election season 😩, here goes.......I used to be a fan of polymer and its family of various composites, not really a advocate, but thought they had some advantages...lighter weight, durable, more "modern" looking, and fairly comfortable to shoot. Over time though I've changed to exclusively steel/alloy frame handguns, reason being I find them "better" in nearly every facet of shooting, meaning more stable....or no flexing of the frame....when firing, smoother shooting (probably due to weight), more convertible in the sense of grip variety, more durable...meaning they can handle more rounds over a years of use, and are also more able to be customized with different finishes. So those are some of my initial points....as folks give their inputs, it will most likely jar some more thoughts......your reasons why are valuable, please share :)
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How can you tell if a polymer frame is flexing? I personally have never experienced that.
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I do prefer steel/aluminum framed ones, but when u get older lighter weight and more ammo is my reason I do prefer the Polymer guns!
Never had issues with any of my Polymer ones but many do especially Glocks (pig snout) and even CZ did have issues with Polymers on their PO7s etc..
But to each their own!
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Why focus on what divides us? I get bored with the divisiveness and wonder why we can't all enjoy what we like, share in our diversity and let others do their own thing. The endless debates of:
Steel vs polymer
Alloy vs steel
Forge vs cast
9 vs 40 vs 45 vs .....
223 vs 7.62x39
223 vs 5.56
Black vs themed paint job
Ported vs non ported
Rail vs no rail
Sights vs night sights
Scope vs dot vs irons
Wood vs steel vs plastic
CZ vs Sig vs Glock vs Ruger vs ......
1911 vs anything else
Bolt action vs semi
HiPoint vs HK
Clone vs factory
I enjoy them all. They all bring something to the table that we can enjoy. Just like the crazy aunt who brings jello salad with walnuts and raisins someone is going to love it and someone will hate it. I like to tell the haters "great, more for me". You'll never know what you like unless you try it. The Internet is no substitution for real life (yet).
Those are my thoughts.
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Polymer guns and polymers have their place in society. It just depends on the use.
as far a polymer parts on guns, theres nothing wrong with them as long as they were designed properly.
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How can you tell if a polymer frame is flexing? I personally have never experienced that.
From research and videos that have been slowed down significantly by sites that do firearm reviews......the polymer frames actually do absorb some of the recoil via a slight "flexing" of the material, steel/alloy frames transfer the full force of the recoil to the shooters hand.
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How the frame rails are constructed and integrated into the polymer really makes a difference. There is no equivalency between polymer generally and alloy/steel...
I do think there are instances where a polymer gun with a one piece steel insert will outlast an alloy framed gun... The Grand Powers for instance have a one piece steel rail insert that strikes me as more durable than glocks, etc, with the multi-piece rail inserts that rely on the polymer as a structural component as well as some of alloy framed designed. Sig P228s for instance are notorious for improper lubrication of alloy frame and steel slide rails leading to excessive damage/wear to alloy frame...
Balance/weight while shooting, steel frames are best for me typically and alloy second and polymer third.
Carry on my hip all day, alloy or polymer wins.
Range gun or bedside gun, steel -- in no small part due to greater weight leading to less felt recoil which helps the mrs. Knowing that reduced wear from range use is also a plus as well for extra practice rounds... Always worry about gun damage with some of the pocket pistol polymer guns even at the 500 rounds of mixed ball/carry I prefer to put through a new gun before carrying as a save my life weapon...
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I think along the same lines as RSR as far as pros and cons. I prefer all steel guns for bullseye matches, especially in the windy conditions out where I live.
But I want to carry a polymer gun due to the weight advantage.
I have one steel/alloy house gun with a light on the rail. It's heavy even with an alloy frame.
I have never had any function or accuracy issues at all with the polymer CZs. Quite the contrary--the most accurate and repeatable handgun I have is an early P-09.
What I really like about polymer is that I can take some JB-Weld or Sugru and personalize the gun shape and trigger reach. More difficult to do and more distasteful to mess up an elegant steel frame handgun than a plastic fantastic polymer gun! To me, a polymer frame is just a starting point.
My problem is that I can talk myself in to liking most guns, except maybe Glocks. Just kidding! Every firearm is someone's favorite, or something like that. So, like AZ_CZ, I see pros and cons to every model/type of pistol, but I tend to like them all, and certainly can understand why other folks may have different preferences/likes/dislikes and that's fine with me.
Joe
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To me it's not a polymer vs metal, but does the gun fit, is it accurate, is it durable, is it easy to maintain, does the manufacturer stand behind it. It's a tool for the most part, a tool I baby, but a tool none the less.
When it comes to heirloom guns, a gun I intend on passing to my children or grandchildren- forged metal is what I want.
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For many years I had no use for polymer framed guns. Shooting a couple Glocks years ago just ruined me for polymer guns. I want groups, not patterns.
I finally decided a wanted something that wasn't pretty to start with so therefore wouldn't be "ruined" by hard use, carry, perspiration, dirt/crud, etc. when I carried it in the yard, woods, garage, etc.
I figured a plastic framed gun would be perfect for that. I went through some other brands of polymer framed guns before I got my P07. Wow! Fit my hand, was reliable and accuracy in a class the other brands couldn't even glimpse. So I bought more. P09s, another P07, both calibers. Amazing guns.
Then I bought a P01. Not as accurate as my P07/P09 guns, but it looked good and felt good in my hand. I hope to have fixed the feed ramp issue when I polished it the other day, but need to get it to the range to see.
Even so, the P01 was followed by a Pre B CZ 85. That was followed by a CZ 75 Compact. None match the accuracy of the P07 or P09 but they are still pretty decent. I've done more trigger/action work on the metal framed guns to get their triggers closer to the stock plastic framed guns. We're getting a DP Pro installed on the latest CZ 75 Compact in an attempt to wring more accuracy and easier/quicker sight/target alignment. Not saying that will lead to better groups (it could) but it will make it easier to get on target quickly.
I keep a polymer framed gun on me when I go off my property. I carry around either that same polymer framed gun or the Pre B CZ 85 on my property. I have the P01 beside my recliner and a P09 by the bed.
They're all CZs and I trust all of them to get the job done if I have to use one.
Best feel in my hand goes to the metal framed guns. Man, does that P01 and CZ 85 feel good. But accuracy goes to the P07 and P09. Distinctly better accuracy.
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I liked some sentences in a post from M1A4ME. (reference to liking groups not patterns). I laughed at I guy I know who mentions patterns and now purposely ask the guy if he hit the paper target. I like steel innocent looking but accurate government Colt .45 ACP's and revolvers. In contrast, my fairly new CZ P-09 9mm is "composite" and I don't consciously think about the material for reasons don't care that the CZ is not blued or stainless steel. I liked the first shot and only have about 200 miles (shots, I mean) so far. I don't think about weight but I like repeated accuracy. I like weight if we were talking about over/under shotguns when used for the trap game (such as doing 250 pairs of ATA trap doubles (500 targets) in an afternoon marathon session of registered targets). Gun fit is sometimes important. A student of mine purchased a pistol that fit her hand and trigger reach, so to speak. Those were requirements and she chose her semi-auto--not her husband.
In closing, I don't own any Glock things. So far, I really like a CZ P-09. People ask me what that "thing" is that knows how to shoot.
DeltaGray
;)
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Bottom line for me is that metal (both steel and alloy) seem more permanent whereas polymer seems more disposable. I carry, own, enjoy, and rely on all, but I absolutely trust the metal framed (steel and alloy) to outlast me whereas some of the polymer (all by my Grand Power) I anticipate frame issues in my lifetime given enough rounds through...
I also refuse to carry polymer guns as a truck gun in the texas heat. Polymers/plastics being neither liquids nor solids (sort of like glass), I won't have confidence in the gun so do not even attempt.
Though definitely a personal preference, I find that wood and metal guns of all types have soul whereas plastic/polymer guns feel more like disposable tools... The difference between craftsman tools and harbor freight if you will... One's made to last and have a legacy and the other is made to temporarily serve a function.
I've also used the analogy of are you the type who once you get a dent in your new truck, you then don't care about subsequent dents and are willing to put it to work? Or are you the type who keeps a old beater truck in your stable for hard use. If the former you can run whatever you want. If the latter, you'll probably want an AR15 and a polymer handgun for training, ranch guns, etc, while you keep your special guns pristine...
Is this outlook probably too far cynical on polymer/more common guns -- yes, but when honestly evaluating my preferences and beliefs and affections, it is where I am.
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Every firearm is different. I prefer polymer hk's over all metal sigs, I prefer my p01 over glocks, I'd rather have an m&p over a 1911, and I'd take a bryco over a high point (I guess). Point being is that I'm sure you see the pattern there. The firearm industry is much to abundant to make an argument between polymer vs metal, there are to many variables. Fyi, I used the word argument, but I know no one is trying to start an argument.
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I have a polymer framed Beretta PX4SC (carried most often), Nano for the pocket, Polymer stocked Weatherby Vanguard .243 Win and Polymer stocked InLine Muzzle loader. All are excellent. That said, I do prefer metal esp SS firearms and walnut stocks unsealed, for my own wood youth oil rubbing -- good for the soul.
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to each his own.
when it comes to guns its like women.
i like them all....blonds, brunettes and redheads....
and if a woman has plastic or is natural, i wont go there, after all this is a family forum.
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I like them both. I seem to be more accurate with my all steel CZ, but I'd rather carry my P-07. I see that a lot of different members are more accurate with their poly framed guns. With inserts and other replaceable parts available the poly framed pistols should last nearly as long as the metal framed guns.
I wish I had the opportunity put a 1000 rounds through every poly framed and steel framed pistol available. It would interesting to know what my opinion would be after that experience ;) I'd be more than willing to give it a try :)
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I have a polymer framed Beretta PX4SC (carried most often), Nano for the pocket, Polymer stocked Weatherby Vanguard .243 Win and Polymer stocked InLine Muzzle loader. All are excellent. That said, I do prefer metal esp SS firearms and walnut stocks unsealed, for my own wood youth oil rubbing -- good for the soul.
Well, most polymer stocked rifles have all metal actions, upper receivers, etc... There are some rare cases that don't. My main gripe about most polymer stocks is that they're loud when banged on branches, etc, in the woods. Not the same as polymer handguns in my opinion. Polymer vs wood vs metal furnitured rifle is more about looks than function most of the time...
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I like them both. I seem to be more accurate with my all steel CZ, but I'd rather carry my P-07. I see that a lot of different members are more accurate with their poly framed guns. With inserts and other replaceable parts available the poly framed pistols should last nearly as long as the metal framed guns.
I wish I had the opportunity put a 1000 rounds through every poly framed and steel framed pistol available. It would interesting to know what my opinion would be after that experience ;) I'd be more than willing to give it a try :)
Well, steel frames can typically be repaired to function if damaged. Stainless and alloy are more difficult than standard steels, but can also be done with more difficult gas welding, shielded metal arc welding usually won't work for these.
Polymer can only be repaired once broken only by inserting new steel supports into the polymer to rebuild and reattach... Some interesting work done by folks converting some HK gun to a G36 clone: http://www.houstongunandrange.com/gun-reviews-discussions/2817-do-kind-yourself-hk-g36-rifle.html
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Being old (and old fashioned) I lean towards steel but do own two polymer CZs (P07 and P09) and they are in my shooting rotation right along my other handguns (to include lead filled Jericho 941F and 941FS). I have found that, for whatever reason, I shoot better with my heavier pistols.
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I have been shooting handguns my whole adult life and started shooting pre-polymer days when the choices were limited to steel or alloy. When Glock hit the market I was all into the new lightweight pistols and became a polymer fanatic, relegating my steel framed guns to either a life in the safe or the classified section.
As I got older, still shooting polymer, I found that shooting was becoming uncomfortable to my hands for extended shooting sessions. My finger joints would ache, not bad enough to make me quit shooting but noticeably uncomfortable. One day I switched back to shooting a steel framed gun and the difference was like night and day. The steel was so much more comfortable to shoot and no more joint discomfort. This made me do a side by side comparison in which I discovered that with the polymer I could literally feel a flex and snap back that sent sharp vibrations into my fingers. I never felt this when I was younger but definitely became obvious about 10 years ago. Its probably the primary reason I became a CZ fan; they were one of very few manufactures that still offered a non-1911 style pistol in a steel frame.
I still shoot plastic guns but I have switched back to steel framed guns as my primary shooters
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Originally started this post and wasn't sure what I was in for, but there have really been some insightful comments.........keep'em coming. I can't say I'm running out to get a "composite" material gun tomorrow but I may give them a second look from now on.......CZ style of course ;)
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I have been shooting handguns my whole adult life and started shooting pre-polymer days when the choices were limited to steel or alloy. When Glock hit the market I was all into the new lightweight pistols and became a polymer fanatic, relegating my steel framed guns to either a life in the safe or the classified section.
As I got older, still shooting polymer, I found that shooting was becoming uncomfortable to my hands for extended shooting sessions. My finger joints would ache, not bad enough to make me quit shooting but noticeably uncomfortable. One day I switched back to shooting a steel framed gun and the difference was like night and day. The steel was so much more comfortable to shoot and no more joint discomfort. This made me do a side by side comparison in which I discovered that with the polymer I could literally feel a flex and snap back that sent sharp vibrations into my fingers. I never felt this when I was younger but definitely became obvious about 10 years ago. Its probably the primary reason I became a CZ fan; they were one of very few manufactures that still offered a non-1911 style pistol in a steel frame.
I still shoot plastic guns but I have switched back to steel framed guns as my primary shooters
Odd, but I believe it and have experienced it... Odd b/c I find that polymer triggers kill a lot of tactile feedback on action movement while the steel triggers transmit more rapidly... But I guess metal harmonics constantly vary and plastics/polymers behave differently in different applications as well...
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I have nothing against polymer. It works. I have shot Glocks, and they are fine, and I was even able to get good accuracy my first time around. I can see why people swear by them. However, I prefer the feel, and ergos of metal framed pistols. My CZ-75's just feel better to me than the P-07, and P-09 to me, but if I did pick up a polymer pistol it would be a CZ. I'd like to shoot a P10C.
A few years ago, I did own an HK USP .45 Tactical with the ideas of installing a can. I sold it, as I couldn't warm up to it. YMMV.
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I use to own a High Point .40, never had a problem with it (probably because it was a big heavy gun) sold it and got a Ruger SR40, violent gun to shoot, would be horrible for a follow up shot. haven't sold it, it is my bedside gun but I haven't shot it in over a year. just recently picked up a 75B .40 have put about 100 rounds thru it and it is twice a stable as the Ruger. would like to try a P07 or P09. currently I don't really care for the polymer guns, but like I said I haven't tried a CZ
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My first polymer was the PX4 C. Before it I only wanted metal. Now I have numerous in both and my two favorite range guns are the 75BD and P-09.
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Frame flex is a non-issue firing off-hand. The bullet is out of the barrel before anything flexes. Now, if you pin the grip rigid in a gun vise, it's a little different, but it's a non-issue fired off hand. Off hand, the polymer absorbs some of the shock, but there's no flex reducing mechanical precision. Metal receivers have no advantage in this regard.
Metal pistols feel smoother because they're heavier, and mass is the primary mitigating factor against recoil.
More convertible in terms of grip variety? There's a sleeve of every contour to match whatever you might do to a metal-framed pistol, there are easy stippling options, and many polymer pistols come with multiple grip inserts to change grip size and profile. On the whole, this is clearly an advantage for polymers over metal frames.
The notion of them handling more rounds over years of use seems like one of those assumptions that is so widely held that it's treated as fact. The slide and barrel are what get abused in terms of long-time durability. And the barrel and slide are steel on both types of pistols. I wouldn't assume the material of either frame lends itself to long-time durability, unless, of course, I factored in corrosion, in which case -- advantage polymer.
The extra mass of an all-metal pistol is an advantage in a number of applications, as illustrated by Joe L, but it's a disadvantage in others. Durability is a myth at worst and an assumption at best. How long a pistol will function reliably and how long a part will function without breaking is matter of design, not whether or not the receiver is polymer or metal. The 1911 is the god emperor of metal pistols, and it's not know for impeccable reliability. It's known for needing tune-ups. ;)
I'm not downing metal. It's just a non-factor in most of the reasons we give when explaining why we prefer one over another. It's all bias and arbitrary preference and, honestly, FAR too often, it's ungrounded romantic sentiment.
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Nothing wrong with a good old Colt 1911. My oldest is 100 years old next year. Shot it back in the summer. 185 grain and 200 grain LSWC, 200 grain LRN (with a flat spot on the end) and 230 LRN. It all fed, fired, ejected. The kids got a kick out of firing such and old gun and having it work every time.
If everybody and his uncle made CZ 75's they wouldn't really be "CZ" 75's but people would bad mouth the real thing over the problems with copies.
Sorry. When you own 4 Colt 1911's and all of them are impeccable (if you don't mind the Series 70 denting case mouths now and then) you just have to speak up when you hear 1911's aren't reliable. My Combat Commander will feed one empty case after another from the magazine to the chamber. Never a hiccup.
I need to try that on the P07 and P09. Just to see. They might do it, too.
Reliability is a combination of
Design,
Parts manufacture/quality (some aftermarket parts makers shouldn't be in business)
ammunition (not all of it works in every gun)
maint/cleaning/lubrication
magazines (another part in a way but some folks insist on buying cheap aftermarket mags - not just for 1911s and then blaming function issues on the gun)
then again, some people really shouldn't be modifying/working on their guns (or their buddy's guns).
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With a good belt and holster I have never had a "Too Heavy" issue with my CZ-75 pre B or the Browning High Power the I carry plus two magazines too.
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My alloy framed 75D PCR is lighter than the polymer P-07.