The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Scorpion EVO => Topic started by: Border Dave on January 19, 2017, 08:32:52 PM
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I've been waiting eight months to get my tax stamp approved to make my Scorpion into an SBR. In that time, I bought and installed the 922r kit for it, which included a new disconnector. I had only shot about twenty rounds through the Scorpion prior to installing the kit. Well, I was happy when my tax stamp came back and I could put a stock on it. I took it to the range and shot about five rounds through it before the trigger just locked up and would not reset.
I got it home and took it apart and here's what I found:
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j313/Border_Dave/Firearms/IMG_5171_zps9qgo0ext.jpg)
It's been almost a year since I bought the kit. Do you think CZ-USA will replace it for me?
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Give em all call. Only way of knowing.
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Just put the stock one back in looks identical to the one in the kit that's what I did!
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Supposedly cz usa is good on replacing and warranty, though I've been trying to get 3 broken magazines replaced for weeks now playing phone games and/or email tag >:(.
You can just put the original back in, I don't think anyone has ever been into any serious issues with 922r "now nfa compliance is another story, you don't want to f with that 1". I'm sure before long you'll be stacking on aftermarket parts if you haven't already which will more than make up for 1 disconnector
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I'll definitely give them a call when they get back from Shot Show on Monday.
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Just put the stock one back in looks identical to the one in the kit that's what I did!
No it doesn't. It's thinner and really easy to tell apart.
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still though, put the stock back in and use the gun in the meantime. or just use excuse +1 to buy a new aftermarket do-dad like an hbi trigger or a manticore steel lipped magazine
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frick thanks to Hilary almost getting in I used the "yeah but I need to buy these guns now in case they get banned" excuse and increased my toy collection by +3 :). now if you put in a non 922r part you can say you need to buy an aftermarket upgrade part to get back to 922r for legal reasons, or the government made you do it :)
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Cz custom makes an aftermarket disconnector. I think it was made only to function with their drop in trigger kit though. There were a couple of people whom had issues with trigger reset after installing the czc disconnector without their trigger
You could just order a new one from the cz-usa store and use the warranty to get a replacement as well. That way you'll always have 2 just in case 1 fails. Just be sure to order some extra goodies from the store at the same time to offset the shipping cost.
I'm currently running both cz of disconnectors (cz-oem and cz-usa) in 2 different evo's at the same time without issue. If anything, the usa made disconnector shows less resistance to reset the trigger when released
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This is hard to explain, as the pictures I took don't have enough contrast to help out - but I just installed the disconnector that came with my recently purchased 922R kit. While its width is thinner at the top, it's actually thicker at the bottom where the pin goes through. Hopefully, this will prevent the break experienced in the OP.
I removed the original by pushing the pin from left to right, towards the trigger spring but only enough to first remove the collar and then a bit more to remove the disconnector. I attempted to install the 922R disconnector in the reverse order, putting in in first, then the collar. However, the collar doesn't fit going in this way due to the thicker bottom section of the 922R disconnector. I had to put the collar in place first, then place the new disconnector on top and push it down.
The reason for this is that on the original, the slot that the collar fits into on the disconnector is machined like a dado (sorry for the woodworking analogy) running from bottom to top. On the new one, the slot for the collar is machined more like half of a mortise (upside down "U") from the bottom and goes only high enough to allow the collar to fit. This allows the whole bottom section of the disconnector to remain thicker and stronger (?) and is why the collar needs to go in first.
For what it's worth, might be interesting to know if the other side of the broken disconnector in the picture above has a slot going all the way or not.
Sorry for the ramble. Probably should have just measured them for comparison! Too late now and I hope I never have to get in there again.
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This is hard to explain, as the pictures I took don't have enough contrast to help out - but I just installed the disconnector that came with my recently purchased 922R kit. While its width is thinner at the top, it's actually thicker at the bottom where the pin goes through. Hopefully, this will prevent the break experienced in the OP.
I removed the original by pushing the pin from left to right, towards the trigger spring but only enough to first remove the collar and then a bit more to remove the disconnector. I attempted to install the 922R disconnector in the reverse order, putting in in first, then the collar. However, the collar doesn't fit going in this way due to the thicker bottom section of the 922R disconnector. I had to put the collar in place first, then place the new disconnector on top and push it down.
The reason for this is that on the original, the slot that the collar fits into on the disconnector is machined like a dado (sorry for the woodworking analogy) running from bottom to top. On the new one, the slot for the collar is machined more like half of a mortise (upside down "U") from the bottom and goes only high enough to allow the collar to fit. This allows the whole bottom section of the disconnector to remain thicker and stronger (?) and is why the collar needs to go in first.
For what it's worth, might be interesting to know if the other side of the broken disconnector in the picture above has a slot going all the way or not.
Sorry for the ramble. Probably should have just measured them for comparison! Too late now and I hope I never have to get in there again.
Here's the photo with as much contrast I can get. Original on left, 922R on right.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170121/f4bb24176c74a5639ba3f433fa9f4a8e.jpg)
Never mind, after looking closer it's not any thicker, just more consistent thickness around the pin.
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I am running the CZ Custom disconnector with the factor trigger group and I have not experienced any reset problems. The CZ Custom one is much thicker and I don't expect to have any breakage problems/
YMMV ;D
Cz custom makes an aftermarket disconnector. I think it was made only to function with their drop in trigger kit though. There were a couple of people whom had issues with trigger reset after installing the czc disconnector without their trigger
You could just order a new one from the cz-usa store and use the warranty to get a replacement as well. That way you'll always have 2 just in case 1 fails. Just be sure to order some extra goodies from the store at the same time to offset the shipping cost.
I'm currently running both cz of disconnectors (cz-oem and cz-usa) in 2 different evo's at the same time without issue. If anything, the usa made disconnector shows less resistance to reset the trigger when released
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For what it's worth, might be interesting to know if the other side of the broken disconnector in the picture above has a slot going all the way or not.
Here's a photo of the other side of my broken 922r disconnector. I'm not sure what slot you're referring to, but it does have a recessed area that runs around the hole that the pin goes through.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j313/Border_Dave/Firearms/P1070487_zpsdzrc2xo2.jpg)
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i'm pretty sure that's what he was talking about from looking at his pic
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As you can see, in this point there is edge-notch stress on 922r disconnector... there is flat area on original
(http://img14.rajce.idnes.cz/d1402/7/7949/7949317_8162603f2d39c87ec62171ee93635445/images/disconnector_EVO.jpg?ver=2)
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I am running the CZ Custom disconnector with the factor trigger group and I have not experienced any reset problems. The CZ Custom one is much thicker and I don't expect to have any breakage problems/
YMMV ;D
Cz custom makes an aftermarket disconnector. I think it was made only to function with their drop in trigger kit though. There were a couple of people whom had issues with trigger reset after installing the czc disconnector without their trigger
You could just order a new one from the cz-usa store and use the warranty to get a replacement as well. That way you'll always have 2 just in case 1 fails. Just be sure to order some extra goodies from the store at the same time to offset the shipping cost.
I'm currently running both cz of disconnectors (cz-oem and cz-usa) in 2 different evo's at the same time without issue. If anything, the usa made disconnector shows less resistance to reset the trigger when released
With HBi springs the CZC Custom disconnector is too beefy to reset properly. It works perfectly with factory spring. After I get more rounds thru it and get more "break in" I'll try the HBi springs again.
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As you can see, in this point there is edge-notch stress on 922r disconnector... there is flat area on original
Say what?
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I am also running the HB springs with my CZ Custom disconnector without problems, these guns must be slightly different from gun to gun.
I am running the CZ Custom disconnector with the factor trigger group and I have not experienced any reset problems. The CZ Custom one is much thicker and I don't expect to have any breakage problems/
YMMV ;D
Cz custom makes an aftermarket disconnector. I think it was made only to function with their drop in trigger kit though. There were a couple of people whom had issues with trigger reset after installing the czc disconnector without their trigger
You could just order a new one from the cz-usa store and use the warranty to get a replacement as well. That way you'll always have 2 just in case 1 fails. Just be sure to order some extra goodies from the store at the same time to offset the shipping cost.
I'm currently running both cz of disconnectors (cz-oem and cz-usa) in 2 different evo's at the same time without issue. If anything, the usa made disconnector shows less resistance to reset the trigger when released
With HBi springs the CZC Custom disconnector is too beefy to reset properly. It works perfectly with factory spring. After I get more rounds thru it and get more "break in" I'll try the HBi springs again.
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As you can see, in this point there is edge-notch stress on 922r disconnector... there is flat area on original
Say what?
Wrong design, wrong construction.
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After 425 rounds on my CZ Scorpion EVO SBR, the (922r) disconnector broke similarly. I have contacted CZ USA requesting a replacement part, which I hope is better made than the defective one I installed. Meanwhile I returned to the original Czech disconnector.
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Supposedly cz usa is good on replacing and warranty, though I've been trying to get 3 broken magazines replaced for weeks now playing phone games and/or email tag >:(.
You can just put the original back in, I don't think anyone has ever been into any serious issues with 922r "now nfa compliance is another story, you don't want to f with that 1". I'm sure before long you'll be stacking on aftermarket parts if you haven't already which will more than make up for 1 disconnector
Supposedly they're not going to ship any more out. They can't get any more from cz in Europe. Apparently they're going to be releasing the evo 3 A2/S2 updated version which has completely redesigned the magazine and mag well. The new mags will not be compatible with the S1. All of their resources for production are currently aimed at the S2 production to make the deadline prior to the unspecified release date. Cz will not say as to when or if they would consider production again for supporting the S1 version.
Kinda sounds like what sig did to the mpx owners
Who knows what will happen...
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I haven't heard anything like that at all from CZ, and they usually let me know little things here and there.
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Just an update: After not hearing anything from CZ for 2 weeks, I called them back and found out that they didn't receive my email because they don't check the account I sent my info to (they gave ME that email address to send it to). So, after I emailed them my info again, they shipped it out the next day and I finally got the new disconnector. Supposedly, it is the 922r disconnector, but it doesn't look like the broken 922r disconnector that I have. It looks identical to the original CZ disconnector. I installed it, but I haven't had a chance to go to the range yet.
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Supposedly they're not going to ship any more out. They can't get any more from cz in Europe. Apparently they're going to be releasing the evo 3 A2/S2 updated version which has completely redesigned the magazine and mag well. The new mags will not be compatible with the S1. All of their resources for production are currently aimed at the S2 production to make the deadline prior to the unspecified release date. Cz will not say as to when or if they would consider production again for supporting the S1 version.
Kinda sounds like what sig did to the mpx owners
This is startlingly detailed for a web rumor. Please tell us more if you can. Links? Other forums? I believe this--with proper evidence--really warrants its own thread.
As a guy that waited many moons and did his research to see if this Glock-and-MP5-had-an-affordable-PCC-baby platform would stabilize, I am absolutely terrified that I am going to get the MPX guinea pig treatment by CZ. I bought in big to the CZ Scorp Evo S1... two pistols and enough Type B mags to fill an ALICE pack. Say it ain't so.
Seconded. I'm about a month away from putting a Form 1 in for the S1. I would be livid to be 2-3 months into the ATF processing period just to find out my platform is dead. I'm gonna need some kind of evidence for this claim, or, more ideally, evidence to the contrary.
I'll also add that this seems incredibly suspicious considering CZ is about to release or has just released the flash can pistol version, which would need, you know, an active production line to make.
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The new release of the scorpion pistol with the carbine handguard was just a way for them to flush out their s1 parts inventory. Apparently the carbines were easier to sell in foreign countries with so many firearms restrictions thus a surplus of carbine handguards. Certain molded parts of the evo are made in batches outside of the factory. The factory has 2 different departments, civilian and military. Since the military department had no use for the carbine handguard and the civilian department wasn't yet set up for the molding process, the carbine handguards were fabricated by a third party in a large batch to save cost. The r&d guys and the manufacturing guys don't work in the same office so there was some delay of info prior to a large order of carbine handguards.
Also, the evo s1 was never intended to be sold with its current lower control group. It's too easy to merely swap out the internal parts to make it select fire. Much like how an ar15 doesn't have the third hole to install select fire components, the new lower control group is completely redesigned so that internal parts can't be interchangeable between the s1 and s2. Cz sales claimed they were pressured to get the evo out on the market prior to design, production and testing of a new lower control group. The weld was just a quick fix to meet federal guidelines both here and around the globe.
As far as parts ordered and received from cz, it's everything they currently have in inventory and nothing new. When cz usa receives new parts from their parent company in Europe, these are parts from their warehouse that were produced long ago. Cz is required under many foreign government contracts to keep a minimum amount of replacement parts on hand for evo A1's currently being used by these unspecified foreign goverments. I'm sure our country would be pissed if they signed a contract to use x amount of scorpion smg's or x amount of years and cz couldn't replace the parts half way through the contract term
So chances are pretty high that if you just recently purchased a new evo or new evo mag direct from cz, you're not receiving newer mags. The newer mags (b type) were just another quick fix. It was the cheapest solution to fix the mag problem until the release of the S2. Instead of redesigning the mag molds for a stronger mag, they just tossed the current mag molds into a cnc and machined out more material to increase the feed lip thickness.
My sources asked not to named, but said it was on me as to whether or not I wished to share this info prior to the public release of the S2. They work for cz and I first met them while I was working for the US army in Germany. I'm not asking anybody to believe me and I'm not looking for attention, the reason I didn't start a new thread about this. It just kinda came out with my fingers typing and my brain not thinking when I was responding to SouthernScorp's post regarding lack of response from Cz to exchange out his mags.
A final note. The A2/S2 has been out for some time now. Just not outside of the manufacturing plant and a select few private contractors. Naturally the S2 has a different receiver as to not accept an A2 nor A1/S1 lower control groups. Both the S2 and A2 accept and share the same mags which are completely different from the A1/S1 mags. Subtle changes have been made to the fire selector location, improved trigger and how the pistol grip attaches to the receiver.
I think they finally got it right, even if that meant that us S1 owners will soon be relying upon the aftermarket manufacturers to keep our evo's pumping.
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Well I just emailed CZ and asked for the truth either way. If this turns out to be true then their reputation has lost all credibility.
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The new release of the scorpion pistol with the carbine handguard was just a way for them to flush out their s1 parts inventory. Apparently the carbines were easier to sell in foreign countries with so many firearms restrictions thus a surplus of carbine handguards. Certain molded parts of the evo are made in batches outside of the factory. The factory has 2 different departments, civilian and military. Since the military department had no use for the carbine handguard and the civilian department wasn't yet set up for the molding process, the carbine handguards were fabricated by a third party in a large batch to save cost. The r&d guys and the manufacturing guys don't work in the same office so there was some delay of info prior to a large order of carbine handguards.
Also, the evo s1 was never intended to be sold with its current lower control group. It's too easy to merely swap out the internal parts to make it select fire. Much like how an ar15 doesn't have the third hole to install select fire components, the new lower control group is completely redesigned so that internal parts can't be interchangeable between the s1 and s2. Cz sales claimed they were pressured to get the evo out on the market prior to design, production and testing of a new lower control group. The weld was just a quick fix to meet federal guidelines both here and around the globe.
As far as parts ordered and received from cz, it's everything they currently have in inventory and nothing new. When cz usa receives new parts from their parent company in Europe, these are parts from their warehouse that were produced long ago. Cz is required under many foreign government contracts to keep a minimum amount of replacement parts on hand for evo A1's currently being used by these unspecified foreign goverments. I'm sure our country would be pissed if they signed a contract to use x amount of scorpion smg's or x amount of years and cz couldn't replace the parts half way through the contract term
So chances are pretty high that if you just recently purchased a new evo or new evo mag direct from cz, you're not receiving newer mags. The newer mags (b type) were just another quick fix. It was the cheapest solution to fix the mag problem until the release of the S2. Instead of redesigning the mag molds for a stronger mag, they just tossed the current mag molds into a cnc and machined out more material to increase the feed lip thickness.
My sources asked not to named, but said it was on me as to whether or not I wished to share this info prior to the public release of the S2. They work for cz and I first met them while I was working for the US army in Germany. I'm not asking anybody to believe me and I'm not looking for attention, the reason I didn't start a new thread about this. It just kinda came out with my fingers typing and my brain not thinking when I was responding to SouthernScorp's post regarding lack of response from Cz to exchange out his mags.
A final note. The A2/S2 has been out for some time now. Just not outside of the manufacturing plant and a select few private contractors. Naturally the S2 has a different receiver as to not accept an A2 nor A1/S1 lower control groups. Both the S2 and A2 accept and share the same mags which are completely different from the A1/S1 mags. Subtle changes have been made to the fire selector location, improved trigger and how the pistol grip attaches to the receiver.
I think they finally got it right, even if that meant that us S1 owners will soon be relying upon the aftermarket manufacturers to keep our evo's pumping.
I talk to CZ 2-3 times a week, and know exactly the changes that are going into the 2017 production model due to work we are doing with CZ.
The magazines are not changing, nor are any of the things you have said are changing.
Carbines and carbine forends are a purely U.S. creation for the U.S. market. They are not sold overseas.
Your source has no idea what they are talking about.
Sven
Manticore Arms
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My source is the CZ design team who works on the gun, not some super secret squirrel who can't be named and doesn't work at CZ.
Believe what you want, but we wouldn't have invested a great deal of time and money in the PGS Hybrid magazine if CZ was changing the magazine design.
Sven
Manticore Arms
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Sven/Manticore is right. Any changes that we see in 2017/2018 will be fairly minor. Think Gen1 and Gen2 S1 models... Even our customers that own one of each have a difficult time identifying the differences with the two models side by side.
Reading this thread feels like a Sig MPX forum ::)
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Kudos to Sven for clearing this up.
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I just received a reply from CZ and they were not happy to say the least about this rumor. As Sven has posted they assured me there were no such changes being made to the EVO and they will continue to support the platform with parts , magazines, and warranties. So we can all sleep well tonight.
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I've got a pitchfork. Who's got some torches?
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I have received info from two very highly placed sources at CZ-USA who I have dealt with for years and trust completely. The first reactions was;
Very simple. Bad info.
The second source was more detailed;
We just got out of a new product development meeting with our factory rep and I will reaffirm that there are zero plans to discontinue the Scorpion. No mag changes, no trigger changes -- he?s got a whole pile of misinformation there.
The Scorpion platform is one we are supporting whole-heartedly, and we?re constantly working with new partners in the industry to help support it. The last thing we would want to do is discontinue the gun and go back to the drawing board.
I trust them, and that is the end to this rumor.