The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: Vinny on April 19, 2017, 12:34:42 PM
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My question may be a bit too early as I don't believe P-10C's are out there yet but......
I'm wondering how this handgun will compare to my HK VP-9? For HD, Sport Shooting, or Service Duty. What's so special about it?
I love my metal frame 9mm CZ decockers, (SP-01, P-01, and RAMI BD) but I want to fit a Delta Point Pro 2.5 MOA onto my VP-9 and I've run into some mount incompatibility issues. I wonder what accommodation the new P-10C might have for reflex sight options.
Several Gen 4 Glocks are available with M.O.S. - Modular Optic System. Essentially the slide is pre-milled and come with a variety of adapter plates to accommodate most optics so they fit flush with top of slide. I could only hope that CZ might offer a new model like the P-10 that would come pre-milled like this.
Yes, I know Leupold makes an adapter plate for CZ-75's but it raises the optic even higher, making co-witness sights that much more challenging.
Anyone have the inside track on what CZ might offer??
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For me personally the best outcome would be that their is enough meat on the top of the slide to have an rmr or dp pro milled into the slide. We probably won't know that till shops that do this work get a hold of the p10.
I am definitely jaded on this topic, I've carried a pistol with rmr milled slide for years now and I've owned a couple of the multi optic factory options. For me in the role I choose to use them in, they don't compare whatsoever. YMMV but I use and train with them for daily carry self defense, and I feel that proper cowitness, durable proven optic, and rear sight behind optic are critical factors. I just feel the addition of a multi optic mounting plate pleases the masses but is a detriment to the system or concept. These are just the opinions of some one who uses an optic equiped handgun for daily use, if that's not your intended use for the gun then these points are moot.
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Being that Glock,Springfield and S&W all make an optic ready firearm, I have to believe CZ is considering it.
Especially with several of the gun games are allowing optics or considering them.
I have a Glock 19 MOS with a Burris FF3 and it cowitnesses fine with supressor height sights.
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Not downing anyone's choices or products, just stating my experience and opinion
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You can also add to the list of Optics ready...
Canik TP9SFX
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For me personally the best outcome would be that their is enough meat on the top of the slide to have an rmr or dp pro milled into the slide. We probably won't know that till shops that do this work get a hold of the p10.
I am definitely jaded on this topic, I've carried a pistol with rmr milled slide for years now and I've owned a couple of the multi optic factory options. For me in the role I choose to use them in, they don't compare whatsoever. YMMV but I use and train with them for daily carry self defense, and I feel that proper cowitness, durable proven optic, and rear sight behind optic are critical factors. I just feel the addition of a multi optic mounting plate pleases the masses but is a detriment to the system or concept. These are just the opinions of some one who uses an optic equiped handgun for daily use, if that's not your intended use for the gun then these points are moot.
Ranastas, Your experience and opinion are appreciated. I guess I'm not comfortable enough yet with using a reflex for self defense to go ahead and have my slide milled. I like the idea of M.O.S. I had planned to try the optics for sport shooting first, meanwhile keep using my CZ's with night sites & light for defense.
If the slide is milled for MOS, couldn't the optic be mounted permanently where it's milled (with a little additional gunsmithing) later without the adapter plate? Of course, you would then have to lower your co-witness sights too; so I do understand your pov to just do it right from the get-go.
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For me personally the best outcome would be that their is enough meat on the top of the slide to have an rmr or dp pro milled into the slide. We probably won't know that till shops that do this work get a hold of the p10.
I am definitely jaded on this topic, I've carried a pistol with rmr milled slide for years now and I've owned a couple of the multi optic factory options. For me in the role I choose to use them in, they don't compare whatsoever. YMMV but I use and train with them for daily carry self defense, and I feel that proper cowitness, durable proven optic, and rear sight behind optic are critical factors. I just feel the addition of a multi optic mounting plate pleases the masses but is a detriment to the system or concept.
Totally agree. My optic- equipped pistols are all milled. If someone at the factory wants to offer CZs milled for an RMR and include a cover plate I'd be all over it but short of that I will continue having my pistols milled.
Everything is a trade off. I choose to trade some extra cash for a solution that offers better performance ;-)
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For me personally the best outcome would be that their is enough meat on the top of the slide to have an rmr or dp pro milled into the slide. We probably won't know that till shops that do this work get a hold of the p10.
I am definitely jaded on this topic, I've carried a pistol with rmr milled slide for years now and I've owned a couple of the multi optic factory options. For me in the role I choose to use them in, they don't compare whatsoever. YMMV but I use and train with them for daily carry self defense, and I feel that proper cowitness, durable proven optic, and rear sight behind optic are critical factors. I just feel the addition of a multi optic mounting plate pleases the masses but is a detriment to the system or concept.
Totally agree. My optic- equipped pistols are all milled. If someone at the factory wants to offer CZs milled for an RMR and include a cover plate I'd be all over it but short of that I will continue having my pistols milled.
Everything is a trade off. I choose to trade some extra cash for a solution that offers better performance ;-)
Exactly, and maybe I over do it. But anything worth doing is worth overdoing lol.
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Ranastas and sOnspark, Your experience and opinion are appreciated. I guess I'm not comfortable enough yet with using a reflex for self defense to go ahead and have my slide milled. I like the idea of M.O.S. I had planned to try the optics for sport shooting first, meanwhile keep using my CZ's with night sites & light for defense.
If the slide is milled for MOS, couldn't the optic be mounted permanently where it's milled (with a little additional gunsmithing) later without the adapter plate? Of course, you would then have to lower your co-witness sights too; so I do understand your pov to just do it right from the get-go.
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I'm sure someone could do it vinny but the cutout would be bigger than the optic, also remember having a pistol milled for a robust optic is not the end of the world if you don't like it. Most companies that mill offer a saddle plate to fill the cut out when no optic is installed. I just sold one of my glocks that was milled, installed saddle plate and off she went didn't hurt my investment at all.
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Ranastas and sOnspark, Your experience and opinion are appreciated. I guess I'm not comfortable enough yet with using a reflex for self defense to go ahead and have my slide milled. I like the idea of M.O.S. I had planned to try the optics for sport shooting first, meanwhile keep using my CZ's with night sites & light for defense.
If the slide is milled for MOS, couldn't the optic be mounted permanently where it's milled (with a little additional gunsmithing) later without the adapter plate? Of course, you would then have to lower your co-witness sights too; so I do understand your pov to just do it right from the get-go.
Do you have an optic in mind? There are some solutions that mount via the rear sight dovetail - but it would come down to the particulars.
Just to be clear, there is certainly nothing wrong with sticking a toe into the water before leaping in ;-) Most of the factory options make concessions to be optic-agnostic. Aftermarket mounts are (generally) not as robust or anywhere as low profile as milling. For a hard use gun milling is hard to beat but if your use case is less demanding and/or more tolerant of "issues" then you defintely have other options for getting started.
FWIW I put off having a gun milled for several years out of concern for the price and worries I might not like it - one range trip after getting the first one milled and I was sold. ;-)
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Lol yep, doesent take long to see the benefits, especially since I'm getting older and my eyes aren't getting better.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170419/9808c8ff9426ca11bda88423649a18c4.jpg)
Not a great picture but it does depict how well the irons clear the base of the rmr
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Anyone have the inside track on what CZ might offer??
Oh, forgot to ask: had you seen this? https://czcustom.com/new-firearms/cz-pistols-custom/cz-p09-carry-optic.html
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I'm glad I asked the question. This is really good info.
If I was starting from scratch, the ready-milled CZ Custom P-09 might be a good starting point.
However, I already have an 'extra' SP-01 and HK VP-9. I have two Delta-Point Pros (2.5 and 7.5 MOA) I have a Leupold adapter plate for the CZ -75 No Leupold adapter that fits the VP-9. My plan was to try the system out on the SP-01, even if a bit top-heavy with adapter plate; then go from there. Or, maybe trade out the HK VP-9 for something really better that's already milled, or go all-in on the SP-01 and just git 'er done!
That's why I asked about the P-10C to see what CZ has planned. I guess I'll just have to play out my hand and be patient.
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However, I already have an 'extra' SP-01 and HK VP-9. I have two Delta-Point Pros (2.5 and 7.5 MOA) I have a Leupold adapter plate for the CZ -75 No Leupold adapter that fits the VP-9. My plan was to try the system out on the SP-01, even if a bit top-heavy with adapter plate; then go from there. Or, maybe trade out the HK VP-9 for something really better that's already milled, or go all-in on the SP-01 and just git 'er done!
That sounds like a solid plan to test the waters :)
Let us know how it works for you!
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I'm wondering how this handgun will compare to my HK VP-9?... What's so special about it?
I haven't actually seen the CZ in-person, but can speak on some areas of how they will compare for me.
Both have full-ambidextrous controls, and will share magazines (but generally not holsters) with one of their DA/SA siblings.
I find the VP9 grip texture to be pretty much cosmetic... easy enough to remedy, but out of the box, it's as slick as a greased pig. As you know, the VP9s grip panels provide for additional grip tailoring to individual hands.
The P10C is universally reported to have aggressive texturing.
For me, the advantages the P10C will have over the VP9 will be the mag release being familiar, and having more real estate along the frame for my support thumb. While I don't have an issue with the paddle mag release for occasional range use, my thumb is hardwired for what to do under stress.
I wonder what accommodation the new P-10C might have for reflex sight options.
Early reports were that the rear sight dovetail was the same as the Shadow 2, but at least one later reviewer commented that sights were one of the things being changed for production. Either way, once they are in the wild, CZC and/or Springer Precision have dovetail plates that should work, if you want to go that route, and I doubt it will be long before CZC and CGW will be milling slides for them.
No inside information, though...
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just to let everybody know that's waiting for the P10 's... spoke with a gun dealer this week he said they made a bunch of them and discovered a problem with the trigger and had to change something so they should be coming out soon.
NO, he didn't say what the problem was.
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Thanks for the heads-up. Expectations for an outstanding trigger are very high on the P-10C
Good that they're trying to get it right out-of-the-box; and not letting us do their R&D (like all to many other gun mfgrs.)
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From all the reviews I've seen , it's supposed to be a 4.5 pound trigger pull out of the box, I hope whatever problem they fixed didn't bring the trigger pull up to a higher level.
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I'm wondering how this handgun will compare to my HK VP-9?... What's so special about it?
I haven't actually seen the CZ in-person, but can speak on some areas of how they will compare for me.
Both have full-ambidextrous controls, and will share magazines (but generally not holsters) with one of their DA/SA siblings.
I find the VP9 grip texture to be pretty much cosmetic... easy enough to remedy, but out of the box, it's as slick as a greased pig. As you know, the VP9s grip panels provide for additional grip tailoring to individual hands.
The P10C is universally reported to have aggressive texturing.
For me, the advantages the P10C will have over the VP9 will be the mag release being familiar, and having more real estate along the frame for my support thumb. While I don't have an issue with the paddle mag release for occasional range use, my thumb is hardwired for what to do under stress.
I wonder what accommodation the new P-10C might have for reflex sight options.
Early reports were that the rear sight dovetail was the same as the Shadow 2, but at least one later reviewer commented that sights were one of the things being changed for production. Either way, once they are in the wild, CZC and/or Springer Precision have dovetail plates that should work, if you want to go that route, and I doubt it will be long before CZC and CGW will be milling slides for them.
No inside information, though...
Thanks Incogneato, for your insight.
I agree especially on grips, I love my CZ-75 and RAMI cross-hatched rubber grips just the way they are. Although the VP-9 grip straps and side panels can be changed to customize; they slipped around awfully. I added Talon wrap grip and that helped a lot. I will say that after ~2400 rounds the VP-9 has not had a single hiccup; running mostly FMJ's and some JHP's. My orig. recoil spring (red) started getting a little wimpy, but after calling their customer service they sent me a free upgrade to the firmer 40S&W spring which is now standard on all VP's 9 and 40.
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Thanks Incogneato, for your insight.
I agree especially on grips, I love my CZ-75 and RAMI cross-hatched rubber grips just the way they are. Although the VP-9 grip straps and side panels can be changed to customize; they slipped around awfully. I added Talon wrap grip and that helped a lot.
I will say that after ~2400 rounds the VP-9 has not had a single hiccup; running mostly FMJ's and some JHP's.
My orig. recoil spring (red) started getting a little wimpy, but after calling their customer service they sent me a free upgrade to the firmer 40S&W spring which is now standard on all VP's both 9 and 40.
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I think you just double posted your reply.
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Didn't mean to double post. Did something wrong.
I gotta figure out how to pick up a "quote" ; than add copy in a separate section below.