The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Scorpion EVO => Topic started by: wyoung on August 26, 2017, 10:18:58 PM
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I'll start by stating that I am in no way trashing the Scorpion or CZ and really hope this issue can be corrected. I love this little gun. I just don't have 100% confidence in firing it very fast right now.
I contacted CZ warranty and support to ask about several recent issues of customers' Scorpion Evos supposedly firing out of battery. The warranty rep. stated they had not received the damaged guns but assured me the firing pin block would prevent the gun firing without the bolt totally closed. Since the hammer can be dropped while out of battery, this is supposed to prevent the firing pin from contacting the cartridge since the firing pin block should stop it.
In my video, I examined the firing pin block and found I only had to move it what seemed like a millimeter or two to disengage it for the firing pin to strike. What's further alarming is I was able to defeat the firing pin block manually with just a brass punch as shown in the video.
I examined the firing pins and blocks of two other semi auto hammer fired pistols I own and noticed their firing pin blocks had to be depressed at least two to four times as far to be disengaged. I also couldn't defeat the firing pin block of either pistol no matter how I tried.
Please check your weapons and let me know if you can defeat your firing pin block.
https://youtu.be/oUHTv55q3JQ
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I was just looking at the block for the first time while cleaning my Scorpion tonight.
I couldn't see what actually disables the block while firing, could you elaborate on that?
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I was just looking at the block for the first time while cleaning my Scorpion tonight.
I couldn't see what actually disables the block while firing, could you elaborate on that?
There's a lever on the right side of the fire control group that is raised when the trigger is pulled which pushes up on the firing pin block.
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There's a lever on the right side of the fire control group that is raised when the trigger is pulled which pushes up on the firing pin block.
If you can move the firing pin block and allow the firing pin to move, congratulations. That's how it's supposed to work.
If you can make the firing pin move WITHOUT manipulating the firing pin block, that would be an issue.
That's what my video shows. At certain points I am not touching the plunger just simply pushing on the firing pin with my punch and the firing pin goes through.
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I was just looking at the block for the first time while cleaning my Scorpion tonight.
I couldn't see what actually disables the block while firing, could you elaborate on that?
There's a lever on the right side of the fire control group that is raised when the trigger is pulled which pushes up on the firing pin block.
I see it now!
Thanks so much
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I don't know if you have a problem or not. You're sitting there poking the firing pin with a punch with the bolt upside down which is outside the scope of use for the EVO. I never shoot my guns upside down ( and yes I know there might be an operational operation where as an operator I might have to operate upside down ). Poking and manipulating the firing pin and perhaps applying unknown lateral or yawing movement into the firing pin might be binding the firing pin block from resetting in an upside down position could be what's going on here. The firing pin is usually struck by the hammer causing a rapid impulse to drive the firing pin forward and a return spring and inertia return the firing pin back into position. Sometimes if the firing pin is not allowed to reset properly, as in come fully to rest in the most rearward position then there may be friction or gunk binding the firing pin block from also resetting while in an upside down position. There is much more "credibility" to the test if you used a fully assembled weapon with a snap cap or primered case in a safe environment to try and induce an OOB discharge. There are a bunch of guys on this forum who have put many thousands of rounds thru their EVOs with no issue and I'm sure CZ has done countless tests as well. If you are truly concerned about it then I recommend submitting a work request to CZ CS and reporting back to the group what the results were.
Edit: Also I don't know if the EVO can be fairly compared to a "normal" hammer fired pistol as the EVO pistol is a stockless short barreled pistol caliber rifle that operates on blow back rather than delayed action so there might be some other dynamics taken into account for the large reciprocating mass of the bolt.
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His statement is quasi-valid.
It's not that the FPB does not work, it's that it disengages too soon.
I found that to be the case when shimming the FCG to reduce travel. In doing so I was able to stack the disconnector up to a near miss with the hooks so that it would release the hammer on a pull, and release. (Binary) The FPB was still defeated on the release because of how little it needs to be engaged to allow the firing pin to strike the primer.
I have fairly strong opinions about the FCG in this weapon, and I'm not shy about sharing them. But this seemed like another afterthought that barely meets the threshold for a FPB. (It may be more of an inertia blocking drop safety than an actual OOB prevention.) I was able to insert a small plastic jewelers screwdriver down the bore and launch it on a trigger pull and release from the firing pin strike. It flew the same distance either way so the FPB wasn't even dragging on the pin during the release.
So this may have literally nothing to do with OOB prevention and everything to do with drop safety.
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This guy was able to fire an empty, primed shell casing out of battery. He also said his firing pin block can be defeated.
https://youtu.be/S1I5k3_NmGM
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His statement is quasi-valid.
It's not that the FPB does not work, it's that it disengages too soon.
I found that to be the case when shimming the FCG to reduce travel. In doing so I was able to stack the disconnector up to a near miss with the hooks so that it would release the hammer on a pull, and release. (Binary) The FPB was still defeated on the release because of how little it needs to be engaged to allow the firing pin to strike the primer.
I have fairly strong opinions about the FCG in this weapon, and I'm not shy about sharing them. But this seemed like another afterthought that barely meets the threshold for a FPB. (It may be more of an inertia blocking drop safety than an actual OOB prevention.) I was able to insert a small plastic jewelers screwdriver down the bore and launch it on a trigger pull and release from the firing pin strike. It flew the same distance either way so the FPB wasn't even dragging on the pin during the release.
So this may have literally nothing to do with OOB prevention and everything to do with drop safety.
The firing pin block does seem like an afterthought. Also if CZ had made the FPB spring heavier then it would've added to the already heavy trigger pull.
The CZ rep. I spoke to suggested replacing the recoil spring between 10k and 20k rounds. So if you believe the OOB stories being posted where they are supposedly older guns, that may lend credibility to the bolt bounce theory if the recoil spring is too weak. The FPB is so sensitive then perhaps a bolt bounce is enough to disengage it.
The surface of the FPB release is relatively large.
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Also if CZ had made the FPB spring heavier then it would've added to the already heavy trigger pull.
Agreed, but there are two ways to skin that cat. The FPB in a CZ 75 has a drop shelf that snags the shoulder of the firing pin in the models equipped with a FPB. After it is depressed sufficiently, that catch is displaced out of the path and the FP can travel normally.
So without adding tension, you could add a longer catch. And narrow the window to a point in the trigger pull that is further back, or has a smaller disengagement window.
I'm thinking the FPB is disengaged almost instantaneously in the trigger pull. Granted this does coincide with the position of the bolt group. But as stated, the contact area is broad. If we assume this is not a mechanism to prevent OOB fire, then any engagement of the trigger disengaging a drop safety (and preventing any possible no fire malfunction from a errant FPB) makes perfect sense. If it's intention was that of a more "catch all" traditional FPB, then it appears the FCG isn't the only area the design team slept through...
I'll be you for a second and say that perhaps, the goal was a bullet proof drop safety for some regulation, contract, or trade deal we are unaware of. And redesigning it would be too costly etc etc etc.
:) ;) ;D
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That video is more convincing to be sure. Has this been replicated with an EVO pistol?
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Sounds like a whole lot to do about nothing.
Heck, open bolt blow back autos have been in exsistance for a century now with absolutely nothing preventing a primer from going off should something prevent the round from fully clambering such as an obstruction or out of spec ammunition.
More so a quick Google search will show multitudes of reports of oob firing on 9mm blow back ar15s as well but that doesn't seem to stop more and more manufacturers from offering them each year.
The real crux is that in pretty much every case I can find out there of an out of battery occurring regardless of model of blow back sub gun, it appears that either ammunition was out of spec (A lot of them reported handloads), a squib had occurred on the previous round and another was fired after, or a part failed (some by manufacturing defect and some due to extreme lack of maintenance).
Absent those causes which can and do destroy/damage any and every firearm regardless of design, there doesn't seem to be anything more inherently dangerous here than any other handheld device using controlled explosions to propel things that hurt.
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why do you guys always buy a gun, then google the sh... out of it after purchase trying to find things to complain or worry about?
Okay so I got this new scorpion here, lets hit the interwebs and see what horror stories are available on it before I clean it and go out and shoot it. Holy crap , a 1 in 100000 chance of an out of battery, omg this gun is garbage I knew I should have spent the extra $600 on the mpx, I'd have gotten better factory support, caliber conversions and reliability for sure.
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Truth ^^^
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why do you guys always buy a gun, then google the sh... out of it after purchase trying to find things to complain or worry about?
Okay so I got this new scorpion here, lets hit the interwebs and see what horror stories are available on it before I clean it and go out and shoot it. Holy crap , a 1 in 100000 chance of an out of battery, omg this gun is garbage I knew I should have spent the extra $600 on the mpx, I'd have gotten better factory support, caliber conversions and reliability for sure.
Social status. Buying the weapon gets you admission to the group, but developing expertise, or at least the appearance of expertise, gets you a higher rank within the group. Complaining is the easiest way to appear to be an expert. I don't fault the initial testers (generally), who have actually put forth some effort, but the typical ensuing wave of hair-pulling sack riders can get a little ridiculous.
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More truth.^^😀
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I have 5 PCC's without FP blocks with thousands of rounds thru them - Its a miracle I'm still alive today ::)
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I was unaware of "all the recent cases" of OOB reports. Seems the EVO is a quite proven weapon both military and civilian. My question would be what is causing the bolt to be out of battery in the first place ?
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I was unaware of "all the recent cases" of OOB reports. Seems the EVO is a quite proven weapon both military and civilian. My question would be what is causing the bolt to be out of battery in the first place ?
I agree...I was unaware myself. I'd like to see some of these accounts though. I'm willing to bet they were caused by freedom ammo rather then OOB firing...
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that freedom crap with the ring in the middle of the case?
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We didn't set out to be YouTube heros or something. We're both part of a group where a few pictures of these damaged guns started appearing. The owners stated they were older guns and they had been using factory ammo. One cartridge looked like it was about half chambered when it detonated.
When I called CZ to ask about the damaged guns, like I said, the rep. stated they hadn't received any for repair but had seen the pictures and assumed they were due to over pressured ammo or reloads. I asked if they had seen any demonstrations of out of battery discharges like in the video and the rep. stated they hadn't. He assured me that couldn't happen due to the firing pin block which should ensure a fully closed chamber on detonation. I assured him that it was able to be reproduced so I guess we would have to agree to disagree.
He also recommended that the recoil spring be replaced between 10k rounds and 20k max. That's something not widely know to the public. I don't know if a weak spring would only lead to cycling issues or could have such an effect as bolt bounce which could lead to OOB detonation during extremely rapid fire.
Also a couple of reloaders mentioned that due to their ogive, some heavy bullets loaded to mag length have the potential to stick in the bore. They took a reamer to lengthen the throat to fix that issue. It's possible if the bullet struck the bore it could've set back and caused over pressure.
People began mentioning bump fire may have been the cause of the damages. I had heard of AR and AK bump fire but didn't know that a bump fire mechanism for the Scorpion had been released yet. The owners of the damaged guns I saw denied they had bump fired them.
CZ released a statement that people had admitted to bump firing and denied shooting any reloads but CZ determined there had been some reloads fired in some of the damaged guns.
So while I'm not 100% convinced of the CZ rep's statement regarding the firing pin block, I do feel a little better if it's true most of the damaged weapons can be attributed to misuse or over pressured ammo. I've also seen other guns that have exploded when mud or a squib obstructed the barrel.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170830/e58509ebac0d92b7fba4c1fd14e79100.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170830/6f1a9c126d1dc4e7c346b25ee34f8008.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170830/0c9eec034d9bfd600516981e4b7e7abc.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170830/6f337f64fd302bb9f647be7cbacfd61e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170830/19805f620e7ed4d90243d14768b3bb2d.jpg)
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that freedom crap with the ring in the middle of the case?
If it's the same crap that's been blowing up people's guns for a while now then yep...thats it! 8)
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I would be very upset if my Scorpion blew apart like that. My 12 month wait was long enough for my stamp.
I reload all my own ammo though and use 147's through a suppressor. No issues at all yet and I shoot it as fast I can pull the 12lb trigger lol.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Can we get a photo of the headstamp on the ruptured case please?
That's the only photo the guy posted AFAIK.
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that freedom crap with the ring in the middle of the case?
I have a case of their 9mm, new prod, from probably 3-4 years ago. I know recently they went downhill dramatically. I never had any issues with the stuff I had. Is their a time frame when we can narrow down when they changed from ammo production to bomb making?
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AMMOLOAD is the headstamp
Certain those are what I have. I had no issues and I think the case that's left was from when they were basically a new outfit and before prices and shipping times got all retarded.
That said, since I stashed that away, I've dumped a ton of money into a few guns themselves. I'm not trying to blow up a $600 slide, or much worse the evo I have double that in.
Blah...
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I believe this is the head stamp of the case above in the Scorpion. I can't make it out though.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170830/7f7caccadc01b40ed65b7b88c0bd9bc3.jpg)
ETA:
No the one several posts above the owner stated it was a Federal 124gr cartridge and he had done a three round burst when this happened.
The owner of this photo hasn't let me know what the head stamp is.
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There are so many Ammo manufacturer and hand loader horror stories out there it's hard to tell what is truth and what is lore, even with pics. I've used Freedom Munitions 9mm 147s for many thousands of rounds without issue or hiccups. If you look at the exploded case in the photo it looks like a Glock mag in the background and you cant read the headstamp, so who knows. A third or fourth hand story is not proof of anything and just because someone told a story in a forum doesn't mean the story is true or even an accurate account of events.
I for one had never heard of any EVO issues prior to this thread so I'm not going to sweat balls over it. If my gun explodes then I will contact the appropriate companies and see if I can get compensated for my loss of equipment, if I'm injured due to faulty manufacturing or design flaws I will seek an attorney who specializes in these things and see if I have a case. Most likely I will be S.O.L.
The bottom line is that shooting guns is a risky hobby and sometimes bad things happen to good guns, and you may end up losing some money on a damaged gun or component because shooting is risky and liability is hard to pin down on a manufacturer. I think if CZ knew there was a problem they would mount a recall. Look at what they are doing to make amends for the world trigger / welded trigger pack screw issue that pissed us Americans off.
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I've been reloading since I was 15 and have had far less trouble with reloaded ammo than with factory. There were a few "minor mistakes" over the years somehow once or twice "probably more" might have fully crimped and seated and forgot to put in the gun powder ??? No double charges since I usually use the slowest powder I can so it pretty much fills up the cases
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A third or fourth hand story is not proof of anything and just because someone told a story in a forum doesn't mean the story is true or even an accurate account of events.
John A said he had problems with the Freedom cases himself. That's first hand. Granted it's the internet, but in any of our discussions he has never struck me as a whiner baby or a fool. My personal experience was without issue, but if you do any reading on Freedom now, it's all horrible horrible stuff. Which is why I was wondering if there was a time period in which things changed, as I haven't bought anything from them in years, but I'm still sitting on 800-1000 rounds of it.
I understand your underlying point. But Freedom is a known quantity at this point. A little research recently turned that up for me and had me looking in a different direction for heavy 9mm.
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A third or fourth hand story is not proof of anything and just because someone told a story in a forum doesn't mean the story is true or even an accurate account of events.
John A said he had problems with the Freedom cases himself. That's first hand. Granted it's the internet, but in any of our discussions he has never struck me as a whiner baby or a fool. My personal experience was without issue, but if you do any reading on Freedom now, it's all horrible horrible stuff. Which is why I was wondering if there was a time period in which things changed, as I haven't bought anything from them in years, but I'm still sitting on 800-1000 rounds of it.
I understand your underlying point. But Freedom is a known quantity at this point. A little research recently turned that up for me and had me looking in a different direction for heavy 9mm.
I'm not suggesting anyone is whining and the Freedom Munitions issues I find are from 3-4 years ago. There are plenty of online reviewers I watch and trust that are sponsored by Freedom that have not reported issues and I believe that they would. I have shot several thousand rounds of Freedom 147gr 9mm without issue.
One of the problems with the internet is that people are more likely to post a negative experience rather than a positive experience. A handful of complaints regarding the Ammo from years ago does not equate to poor performing Ammo in an overall sense. If the EVO is going to fire OOB then it will fire OOB with any Ammo it is fed regardless of manufacturer. If Freedom was a truly terrible ammo manufacturer I would not have to search for issues, they would be out of business.
They may very well of had issues when they first started up but with time and experience the QC has seemed to improve. There may still be an issue here or there, I can only say I have had nothing but a positive experience with Freedom 9mm stuff. I don't use their other calibers because I can source .223 and 45 cheaper.
I know that an Ammo supplier to our area had problems with Blazer 9mm failing to feed and jamming due to the copper plating being out of spec on the thick side. 40,000 rounds were replaced. So anyone can have a bad day.
The original issue of OOB discharges though seems to be quickly getting lost with all my BS talk. Like I said, I don't think OOB discharges or out of spec Ammo is that wide spread of a problem considering how many millions upon millions of rounds fired by shooters all over the world. Some shooters have experienced failures of OOB discharges or Ammo failures but none that I know firsthand. The only Ammo failures I know of firsthand are from hand loaders that accidentally had a double charge or squib.
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After a remanufacturer gave me this
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170831/cefa309ac4c4db2d488c803574d80ef0.jpg)
And Winchester gave me this
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170831/478a1efe57f0ebf603ba0afd4e68b5c3.jpg)
I load my own painstakingly, one at a time.
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The theme I am noticing in the threads regarding Ammoland/IMT cases that Freedom Munitions uses is not to reload them due to reduced case volume and loading tables don't account for the diminished volume. I'm not a reloader and only purchase new manufactured rounds so I really am not in a position to discuss the merits of FM Ammo as a reloadable case. As new manufactured Ammo goes it has done well by me.
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When I looked around, the cancelled orders, bad batches, and nightmares are current. Not old. FYI.
Sponsored = free.
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My Scorpion is one of the first ones brought in to the US, has the Made By Luago stamp and the original FA FCG parts, (Shooters Element was wishing I'd swapped trigger groups with him for the parts), and I have no experienced any OOB firing with thousands of factory and hand loaded ammo through it so far. It doesn't mean that the firearm won't ever fail - all things made by man can and will fail eventually, but I have confidence borne by those same thousands of rounds that I don't think that will happen any time soon.
As for the Freedom Munitions stuff, I found some of it in my collected brass, and I pitched it, same as I pitch AMERC and that one I can't remember off the top of my head, the cheap Walmart brand with off center flash holes. I don't believe I have ever fired any of their ammo, so am 100% unqualified to say what the QC is like, but the members saying everyone has bad days is very true. I had a box of Wolf 7.62x39mm that had duds every third round, had CCI Blazer ammo with sideways primers, (two in one box of 50 once), and had a Winchester primer pop loose a perfect cirle out the back which succeeded being the only round to ever jam up my vz-58.
I also prefer to "roll my own" and I do my absolute best to keep eyes on every single aspect of loading for my own QC. I've pitched brass that my gunsmith buddy said was perfectly fie, but if it gives me the hinkys...well, I'd rather lose a single round of ammo than a gun I will be very hard pressed to be able to afford to replace.
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Hold on - are "all these recent cases" of OOB discharge this ONE FREEKIN GUN? Where are the others?
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Sorry, haven't read every post on this thread.
I have been at a match with a shooter firing 9mm Freedom ammo with new Freedom brass. Case separation. I even have one of their rounds where we pulled the bullet. The case has a 2 step ledge halfway down and that was the separation point. Not the best photo, but here is the unfired Freedom case
(http://behllc.drivehq.com/~buckshotbarry/images/freedom%20case.PNG)
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Sorry, haven't read every post on this thread.
I have been at a match with a shooter firing 9mm Freedom ammo with new Freedom brass. Case separation. I even have one of their rounds where we pulled the bullet. The case has a 2 step ledge halfway down and that was the separation point. Not the best photo, but here is the unfired Freedom case
(http://behllc.drivehq.com/~buckshotbarry/images/freedom%20case.PNG)
That's not a defect.
It's a feature!
When the stepped case separates it launches the bullet 100fps faster. Lol
Couldn't resist.
That's scary, though.
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The problem is that reloaders have to double check everything when sorting brass due to this junk. >:( Normal 9mm brass will be lost before I wear it out - I have some cases where the head stamps are hard to read anymore from being fired so many times...but this garbage is instant trash. Brass goes in the recycle bag, the others into the trash can.
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The problem is that reloaders have to double check everything when sorting brass due to this junk. >:( Normal 9mm brass will be lost before I wear it out - I have some cases where the head stamps are hard to read anymore from being fired so many times...but this garbage is instant trash. Brass goes in the recycle bag, the others into the trash can.
military brass... nuff' said :) . magtech, speer, junk
WCC "western cartridge" Dated, Win Dated, F.C Dated all g2g for atleast 10x loads
my wcc 1996-1999 brass "friend gave me 2000 1x" takes .2 grains less than winchester commercial brass and comes out the same speeds and groups.
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Sorry, haven't read every post on this thread.
I have been at a match with a shooter firing 9mm Freedom ammo with new Freedom brass. Case separation. I even have one of their rounds where we pulled the bullet. The case has a 2 step ledge halfway down and that was the separation point. Not the best photo, but here is the unfired Freedom case
(http://behllc.drivehq.com/~buckshotbarry/images/freedom%20case.PNG)
That's not a defect.
It's a feature!
When the stepped case separates it launches the bullet 100fps faster. Lol
Couldn't resist.
That's scary, though.
wth is that ledge far? to prevent bullet set-back ? more of a worry with glocks + .40s&w than with 9mm.
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Photo from the web of where the separation occurs.
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z70/cbr600man/Mobile%20Uploads/20150509_180924_edit_1431291475058.jpg)
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looks like they increase volume at the bottom half so they can get away with saving $0.01 per round in gun powder.
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Look at the dots on the half case sitting upright - almost like it was perforated.
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I know, this is an old thread but notice today I can press my firing pin all the way to the point it's protruding out the breech face without depressing the safety block. I emailed cz about it.
Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
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I know, this is an old thread but notice today I can press my firing pin all the way to the point it's protruding out the breech face without depressing the safety block. I emailed cz about it.
Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
What did they say?
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I know, this is an old thread but notice today I can press my firing pin all the way to the point it's protruding out the breech face without depressing the safety block. I emailed cz about it.
Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
What did they say?
They ended up calling me, they stated this is not normal and is a safety issue. They sent me a shipping label within the hour I got off the phone with them. I sent it out and a month later I got it back fixed.
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Defeated..?? :o
So within the last couple of months, I've learned that there's an evident issue with the EVO 3's and out of battery discharges (OOBD). Without making this too long, turns out that the only "ONE" passive safety feature this platform has is defective on a significant number of EVO 3's. So before making arguments and assumptions I went ahead and checked my bolt.
(https://imgur.com/a/YPtO9UR)
As you can clearly see, with the firing pin safety block not being pressed allows the firing pin to protrude, which confirms that either the bolt or safety block is out of spec. I contacted a good friend of mine which also owns an EVO 3 and after testing his, the issue is also evident on his platform as well....
To say the least, CZ will be hearing from us but more troubling is why does it seems that CZ is unaware of this issue, when so many people are clearly complaining and even flooding social media?? Even more troubling is why isn't there a recall since it's a safety issue?
I hope CZ peeks in these forums, I'd love to hear their take on this..
Edit.. for some reason my image won't show
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I invested in the nexus firing pin block, i had a little protrusion of my pin with the factory safety block plus it was getting deformed. Its well worth the $45. I think I'll get their replacement recoil spring assembly next, I changed out my factory spring around 8500 rounds, it was starting to feel abit light and this 2nd factory soring has got atleast 6k on it and i been using some pretty hot loaded 124grs that extra 25% spring strength will help a good bit , just like a 1911 or cz 75 you gotta tune your springs to your preferred loadouts especially shooting hot +p ranges
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Thx. For the heads up.. It's frustrating & disappointing that this unit doesn't have more than 100rds... I'll definitely consider the nexus firing pin block..