Post by: Ulvetann on December 18, 2005, 12:34:50 PM
I read about people walking with their guns C&L, and advice about getting guns, where you are able to carry it C&L...
What's up with that? In my mind, my first reaction was, that 'Oh, he/she must be a cop or [insert proper name of assignment that invoke the need of an instantly hot pistol] since he/she needs it C&L'.
My question is, how often, and when do you carry a cocked and locked gun? At what times do You feel your personal sphere so unsafe that You have to carry a gun C&L?
Hopefully not when going to a bar for a drink, or going to the cinema, watching a movie, or taking your girlfriend on a date, or going shopping?
I, myself have a CZ85B, I never have my gun loaded with a cartridge in the chamber. That's as far as I go.
Post by: Golddogman on December 18, 2005, 12:52:34 PM
That's why I go cocked and locked.
Post by: verbaltharhino on December 18, 2005, 01:10:47 PM
From reading you post, though, I don't think that's what you're talking about. I think you're worried about citizens carrying with a round in the chamber, no matter the method. Let me ask you a couple questions in regards to your questions:
1. Why would a police officer or any other safety-type officer need his/her pistol "hot" and you or I wouldn't? If I'm getting the crap beaten out of me by a group of thugs, will they stop for me to cock my weapon? Guns are meant to be carried loaded. I feel much safer with a gun in my hands than I do with ANY other police-type because I know what I can do and how to do it. Just because they're officers DOESN'T mean they're more capable with a weapon than you are (I'm also NOT saying they're incapable, I just don't know them).
2. When is your "personal sphere" safer than any other time? Are you able to predict when you are in danger and when you are not? I carry whenever I can. If there's a no carry sign at an establishment, it stays in my glove box locked. Of course, there are laws against carrying in an establishment where alcohol is served. I don't carry there. I carry on a daily basis because I'm used to doing it and want to be ready in the event something bad happens and it can be of help. It's like a seat belt. Do you wear it all the time or just when you think you'll get in a wreck?
The bottom line is that you don't know when or where you will need to protect your life, your girlfriend's life, a stranger's life, etc. Guns are unsafe if used in an unsafe manner. Just think of it the same way as a car. It's designed to do something, but if you use it wrong, it can be very dangerous to you and those around you.
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 18, 2005, 03:25:34 PM
Quote
Quote:Why even carry a weapon? Do you really think you'll always have the time it takes to get that gun ready for action?
My question is, how often, and when do you carry a cocked and locked gun? At what times do You feel your personal sphere so unsafe that You have to carry a gun C&L?
Hopefully not when going to a bar for a drink, or going to the cinema, watching a movie, or taking your girlfriend on a date, or going shopping?
I, myself have a CZ85B, I never have my gun loaded with a cartridge in the chamber. That's as far as I go.
Around here (Piedmont NC) there are a suprising number of assaults at shopping malls. Probably more than anywhere else, including biker bars! That's one place I definitely carry, and there will be a round in the chamber. (Malls make a big deal of keeping the news of such assaults out of the media... They know it will hurt business. Its one of America's most shameful secrets.)
I shoot a lot competitively and I know just how quickly you can get a gun into action, if all you have to do is unholster it and engage the target. But if you have to use both hands (as you would, to chamber the round in that 85B) and then get it ready, you've gravely crippled your ability to respond quickly.
An assailant coming at you with from less than 25 feet away can be on you in seconds, and long before you can have ANY gun ready to fire. Doubt me? Try it with a friend, and a AIRSOFT gun. Rack the slide before you fire. You'll be appalled at how long it will take you to respond. I'll bet he can even keep you from racking the slide. And if you're then struggling for the gun, its absolutely useless to you.
When the stuff hits the fan, you want to be able to react quickly and effectively. Training and your equipement can make that likely.
The 85B has a firing pin block, so it is SAFE carried cocked and locked or hammer down -- only pulling the trigger fully to the rear will allow that gun to fire. NOTHING ELSE will make it fire -- not dropping it, not striking it with a hammer.
Not carrying a round in the chamber is terribly short-sighted. It may make you FEEL safer, but, in fact, it makes you less safe...
Post by: Ulvetann on December 19, 2005, 09:38:23 AM
I made this inquiry, because I am open-minded and willing to listen to arguements pro and against. Preferrably with the usual hassle and noise from fanatics, from both 'yes'- and 'no'-side.
My main reason for my question, the way I did it, is because I am living in scandinavia, where society 'always' has been very restrictive regarding possessions of guns. Needless to say, that carrying one is very, very, taboo. All carrying, is supposed to be understood as transported. The only thing in the law that actually can interpret it that way, is an addon to the law, that states that carrying a gun with ammunition is illegal. I.e. You can carry a gun, with a loaded magazine, but the magazine cannot be in the gun.
Infact, I agree to all your statements, Imagine a society, where the only hazards were the occasional drunk person, giving you a smacker over your chin. I can live with that. Anyone can take a fist in a brawl, imho.
The social changes, immigrants, open borders and smuggling are great factors, which 99% of the households never consider as a real threat to their security. An this has increased by only what the imagination can fathom.
Walking around, believing a brawl might be a bad-luck-incident, is rather hilarious. Actually, I consider myself lucky, if I only end up in a brawl. I must add to this, that I do not look for brawls! -but, I know my city, and my streets. There are more than one, of the inevitable skizophrenic, or drugged, unstable persons out there. More hazardous, is imho, the non-drugged, non-skizophrenic %&%& that carries a knife! -or screwdriver, since knives have been illegalized to carry.
These persons with the mental capacity on level with a rodent are not able to understand what a blade can do. They think it only hurts you. Sure it does. It will actually hurt you so much that you often die. or atleast damage internal organs.
I guess, the world I live in, is still very naive, when it comes to 'meeting bad persons along the way'.
My naivte tells me to not carry a loaded gun, but some parts of my more rational mind, tells me to have a loaded gun. I guess, my rational side hasn't overcome the ethical preachings in my youth.
I avoid areas that are truly bad, but if I have to move to a bad place, I will be prepared.
So, in a sense, I think I am lucky. I don't need to carry a gun. If I need to transport it, I am allowed. (Any way I want.) Between those lines, there is alot of space available to justify my right to use it in self defence... "Your Honour! He tried to steal my gun!"
Omg. This rant became longer than wanted. Anyway, I got a couple of good replies. I hope I have ranted something interesting(?) regarding Denmark, and danes perspectives of carrying a weapon. Cocked and locked is not widely used here, yet. Not that I know of, at least.
Post by: Boogalou on December 19, 2005, 10:56:57 AM
I carry on a regular basis and believe strongly in the phrase - "Only in the gravest extreme" regarding pulling my pistol and making the choice to stop a threat to myself or family. I will do everything I can to minimize the threat to myself before making that choice. The choice to carry a weapon means great personal responsibility and should never be taken lightly.
The decision to carry cocked & locked, hammer down, or round in the chamber are all based on the users comfort level and whether he has the confidence in his abilities to perform under stress when the SHTF. That is why being competent and well trained with your pistol is so important, and means so much more then aiming gadgets, ammo caliber, and price/brand of the gun.
Post by: Ulvetann on December 19, 2005, 02:38:49 PM
I will almost bluntly say, that there are too many people saying 'nay', that has only watched old John Wayne, and James Bond-movies. My encounters of people, whom I discuss views of carrying arms, seem to be preoccupied of James Bonds, the 'carrying a gun means you have license to kill'...
And everyone that has this license to kill acts like John wayne, waking into a saloon!
Does not this give a fascinating picture of what people expect, when they hear the word pistol?!
I would prefer people would open their mind to start thinking this, before robbing someone, or doing unwarranted violence towards bypassing people etc; "Hm, I won't go [violence] him, he is most likely carrying arms!" It won't happen with strict rules. Then only perps will carry guns, and it will have the total opposite effect of the law. Here is where I agree to the 'Yay'-side!
Again, there is of course the dualism in this, that the perp, would also carry a gun... ...but, hey, they do it still, why shouldn't the victim have one too?
---
In a perspective, the impression I get from a person walking around with a chambered gun, is in my mind this 'cowboy', too.
The reason, for this mindset is 99%, that we don't have the violence that actually make this action (chambering) reasonable necessary.
Although I do concur with earlier postings, that having a chambered gun can be a necessity. I would for instance not walk around in Johannesburg, Africa, dane and unarmed...
Or New York! 
I guess it is a lot to do with the cultural behaviour of people, that decide the necessity of a C&L gun.
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 19, 2005, 05:24:31 PM
1) The first son opened the door, and as he did, a heavy pillow fell, hit him in the head, whereupon he drew his long sword and sliced it as it hit the floor.
2) The second son, more advanced, opened the door, and sliced the pillow before it hit him.
3) The third son, the most advanced, opened the door slightly, reached up, took the pillow down, and entered the room. He passed the test.
Situational awareness...
Post by: Grendel on December 19, 2005, 06:16:23 PM
Another thing to consider: You end up in a confrontation with someone armed with a knife or other weapon and, by chance, he/she sees your gun, in its holster. He/she does not know that it is not loaded. He/she thinks "oh cr*p, if I run away or I don't do something, he will shoot me dead" and stabs/slices/shoots you. Thus, your unloaded weapon has got you killed or seriously injured in a situation that would probably not have escalated had you been totally unarmed.
IMHO, carrying an unloaded weapon is worse than not carrying at all.
Post by: OMNICROMM on December 19, 2005, 09:39:49 PM
have a great day
Alex from Guatemala
Post by: BRASMAN on December 20, 2005, 03:31:52 AM
Post by: Ulvetann on December 20, 2005, 12:32:42 PM
There are two choises. Either go unarmed, or fully armed.
Thankfully, there are no rules, that states that it is illegal to conceal a weapon (here where I am). So, I'll rather break one law, the one that says carry a gun with amunition is illegal. If, I after a worst case scenario have to explain myself, I must say; "Your Honour, I managed to load my pistol, and rack it, too bad the stabber was to slow, and to dead to tell about it now".
In that case, I will only get 6 months probation. Worse will be, where the judge claim my pistol, and I can't get a new one in two years. Oh, well, I'll cope with that.
Post by: BRASMAN on December 20, 2005, 01:52:12 PM
Post by: OMNICROMM on December 20, 2005, 10:07:00 PM
have a great day
Alex from Guatemala
Post by: verbaltharhino on December 21, 2005, 07:12:13 PM
Post by: Ulvetann on December 21, 2005, 07:44:15 PM
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 21, 2005, 07:54:53 PM
I'd like to see them, too. But the disadvantage is that they'd be great places for predators to wait to prey on folks.
Post by: OMNICROMM on December 22, 2005, 03:10:12 PM
Alex from Guatemala
Post by: jer1949 on December 30, 2005, 02:53:00 PM