The Original CZ Forum

GENERAL => General Discussion => Topic started by: jimbomac on December 14, 2005, 01:33:33 AM

Title: Which CZ?
Post by: jimbomac on December 14, 2005, 01:33:33 AM: I'm looking to buy my first handgun, though I've shot plenty. I wasn't happy with the Springfield XD or the Glocks I tried, then I 'discovered' cz. Well, I finally found a dealer, held the RAMI I thought I wanted, but then held the 75 Compact, and it just felt right. So then the question became 9mm or .40 S&W. Oh, then I spotted the cz 83 sitting there looking good, and it just felt right in my hand, as well. So, with all the noise in my head about stopping power and such, should I go with my gut and get the 'little' .380 cz 83? Or, if the 75 compact is the way to go, 9mm or .40 s&w?
BTW the advice at the shop was the compact, nobody said a thing about the 83...what's up with the lack of respect for the .380? Is it fair?

Thanks for any advice!
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: seamus on December 14, 2005, 05:25:35 AM: Of the 3 pistols you mentioned, I would go with the compact in 9mm. Being your first pistol you will want to fire a lot of practice rounds and 9mm is a lot cheaper than many of the other calibers. I also feel the 9mm is the minimum round one would want to use for self-defense. (Yeah I have a Kel-Tec PC3AT but I carry it when I need to carry but don't want to "frighten" anyone because even a 22 is better than yelling for help! ) The 83 is a fairly large 380 and why go with it if the compact 9's and 40's compare favorably sizewise?
If this is your first pistol ever, I would consider taking the NRA basic pistol course even if it isn't required by your state. A lot of the course is redundant horse doo-doo but I learned a lot from my instructor in the "hands-on" portion and makes a lot less frustration at the range and if you haven't shot a lot of pistols the instructor can nip any bad shooting habits before they take root in your psyche.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 14, 2005, 07:14:39 AM: What he said.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: jwc007 on December 14, 2005, 10:21:52 AM: I concur with what seamus said and also vote for the CZ75 Compact in 9mm.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: Unregistered(d) on December 14, 2005, 12:09:09 PM: Pick the one that fits you best, and go from there. I chose the P01, YMMV.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: dvsnse on December 14, 2005, 12:49:58 PM: I'd go for the 75 Compact 9mm or the PCR. I think the PCR is arguably a better carry piece due to the lighter weight, but I just couldn't pass up the deal I got on an all steel Compact.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: BRASMAN on December 14, 2005, 02:15:33 PM: 9mm compact.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: verbaltharhino on December 14, 2005, 04:10:59 PM: First gun/ CZ out of the choices, definitely 9mm Compact.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: Golddogman on December 14, 2005, 06:25:08 PM: 9 mm Compact, but not the decock models (BD, P01, PCR). One of the chief virtues of a CZ 75 or 85 is the ability to go cocked and locked for a much better trigger pull on the first shot. You lose that with the BD, PCR and P01 versions.

9mm is much cheaper to shoot, has less recoil and makes less noise.

The Compact is handier for carry, has pleasing lines, and shoots as well as the slightly larger full size.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: verbaltharhino on December 14, 2005, 07:46:35 PM: Speak for yourself. I love my PCR (and BD). Carrying DA is my method of choice. Choose your own and be happy with it.

The std. CZ75B is remarkable in the fact that it can be carried condition 1 and it's also DA, if desired. I think it's an excellent gun and I own one. On the other hand, I'm also more comfortable carrying in DA since all the guns I carry are carried that way. Revolver or automatic, I have no safety to think about and know that first pull will be DA.

Telling someone how to carry is as stupid as telling them what car to buy. It's a personal choice and up to them to decide.

Then again, I guess I just told this guy to get the compact because it was one of the choices. I guess I'm a walking (typing) contradiction! Do what you want to do and what feels right.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: Dos on December 14, 2005, 08:42:36 PM: So ya got it narrowed down to a PCR or a 75 Compact...Ain't Life Great ! Both are Winners. And I agree with VRhino, get the one that YOU prefer. I Made Mine a Compact..
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: jimbomac on December 14, 2005, 10:09:57 PM: First, thanks to everyone who posted, and for the advice! Based on the feedback I've beent getting, 9X19 is the way to go, and since I like the feel of the 75 Compact fram, that's what I'm going with.soI'm going with. BUT (there always has to be one, right?), Golddogman brought up something I discovered today....the in-stock model (BD) has a de-cocker, not a safety. Yeah, I know, real tough delima....I've narrowed it down to a CZ 75 Compact 9mm, and am excited about it, but now I'm wondering: de-cocker, or safety?? Oh, btw, the BD also has a loaded chamber indicator, for what its worth. It seems the de-cocker is a good idea, but I'm not used to it, so don't know how that works real-world. Any opinions?
Thanks!
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: jimbomac on December 14, 2005, 10:45:08 PM: Okay, I've been doing some reading, and am a little more confused. What does 'cocked and locked' mean, and can't the PCR function in a similar way? I mean, at the shop, I was under the impression that the de-cocker simply makes the lowering of the hammer (not all the way, but most of the way) a safer action. Couldn't you just leave the hammer there, where it won't fire unless the trigger is all the way engaged? And doesn't that result in a short pull first shot? Geez, things were simpler the last time I fired a gun...back when Ford was President!
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: Dos on December 14, 2005, 10:55:31 PM: With the manual safety on the 75 Compact 9mm you have the option of a single action or a double action first trigger pull.

With the PCR 9mm decocker, it will always be a double action first trigger pull. PCR as mentioned already, has lighter alloy frame, loaded chamber indicator, and a few other cosmetic differences.

You need to do the homework and decide what fits you best. Great, ain't it?!! Decisions decisions....
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: Dos on December 14, 2005, 11:10:44 PM: jimbomac you were posting while I was typing my above post. Don't buy anything until you fully understand the mechanics of both manual safety and decocker pistols. More info to come on this thread, but I gotta hit the sack now. Stay tuned.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: jimbomac on December 14, 2005, 11:17:46 PM: Thanks Dos,

You're right, this is one of those fun decisions, and I'm enjoying it! I guess, when it comes down to it, my confusion is really about DA versus SA, and how each is available. Okay, here's how I understand it...please correct me if I'm wrong: You pull back the slide, you insert a loaded magazine, you release the slide, and there is now a cartridge in the chamber, and the hammer is back, ready to fire. This would be Single Action mode? So, if you weren't ready to fire the weapon, you (in one case) would manually de-cock the weapon, and put the safety on. When you turn the safety off, is that first trigger action SA or DA? And, in the case of a de-cocker, doesn't it work the same way? When you engage the de-cocker, lowering the hammer, wouldn't the next trigger pull be SA? Or is this where I'm confused?
Thanks!
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: mbott on December 14, 2005, 11:30:20 PM: Quote
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So, if you weren't ready to fire the weapon, you (in one case) would manually de-cock the weapon, and put the safety on.

The safety on a CZ can only by applied with the gun fully cocked. If the hammer is not fully cocked, the safety cannot be applied. Not a safety issue as most CZs use a firing pin block that requires the trigger to be fully pulled before the gun can be fired.

Starting with the the hammer down, you would be in double action mode (assuming the gun supported DA). Same with the decocker. The decocker lowers the hammer to the half-cocked notch. So the pull of the trigger 1) fully cocks the hammer and 2) fires the gun from the fully cocked position. That's double action.

--
Mike
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: jimbomac on December 14, 2005, 11:38:46 PM: Thanks mbott,

So what's the broohaha over manual safety versus de-cocker? I mean, the gun, wherever it is at any given moment, is probably not sitting with the hammer cocked... a round in the chamber, yes, but fully cocked, no. So does it matter how the hammer got to that lower position? In either case, wouldn't the first shot be DA? And in either case, couldn't you just pull back the hammer to fully cocked position? I'm just confused about the debate, I guess. Is it really that different, or is it just that a new mechanism has been added?
And, more important, how do I use this information to choose which CZ to buy?? I know, I probably can't go wrong, but it's still an important decision to me.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: mbott on December 15, 2005, 12:17:35 AM: Quote
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So what's the broohaha over manual safety versus de-cocker?

In my book, it doesn't really matter. I have CZs with safetys and CZs with decockers. One or the other generally does not influence my purchase decision.

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I mean, the gun, wherever it is at any given moment, is probably not sitting with the hammer cocked... a round in the chamber, yes, but fully cocked, no.

It could be with "cocked and locked" carry. Cocked and locked was the carry method I first used to back in the mid to late '70s when I carried a 1911.

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So does it matter how the hammer got to that lower position? In either case, wouldn't the first shot be DA?

Doesn't matter to me. I'm comfortable with either manually lowering the hammer or using the decocker.

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And in either case, couldn't you just pull back the hammer to fully cocked position?

That's why there's DA.

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I'm just confused about the debate, I guess. Is it really that different, or is it just that a new mechanism has been added?

You work and train with what you have.

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And, more important, how do I use this information to choose which CZ to buy?? I know, I probably can't go wrong, but it's still an important decision to me.

It's whatever you feel the most comfortable with: whatever works for you.

--
Mike
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: jimbomac on December 15, 2005, 12:40:37 AM: So does this boil down to cocked and locked carry? If so, you are right, I don't see this (de-cocker versus manual safety) influencing my decision. Now it's down to the other differences between the two models, and I'll choose whichever I 'like' better.
Thanks, mbott.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 15, 2005, 07:16:02 AM: Its of greater importance to some than others.

I do a bit of competitive shooting, and find that a cocked and locked start lets me get the first couple of shots off faster and more accurately. Others may find otherwise -- and I know some master-level shooter who outshoot me when they start from hammer down.

I have guns that work both ways, and prefer cocked and locked, but don't feel totally at a disadvantage when working with a decocker gun. I do have to take a bit of extra care when shooting the second shot with a DA/SA gun started from hammer down.

The issue is that the first shot and the second shots on a DA/SA gun that is not started from cocked and locked have substantially different trigger pulls.

The first DA trigger pull is longer and heavier, and the second SA pull is shorter and lighter. If you're not careful, the second shot comes BEFORE you want it to.

When shooting rapidly, it takes more practice to master the DA/SA transition. But it takes a lot of practice to master all aspects of shooting....

I'm one of the folks who score most of our IDPA matches. In competition you can see the differences between DA/SA starts and SA starts pretty quickly. Most DA/SA shooters will not group their first two shots, but will group subsequent shots. (The Master Level shooters do NOT have a problem with the DA/SA transiton, and group ALL their shots. Pratice, practice, practice.)

If you concentrate on the front sight and concentrate on each trigger pull, it doesn't really make a difference.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: jimbomac on December 15, 2005, 11:55:00 PM: Thanks for all of the imput, folks. I think I made the de-cocker a bigger issue than need be. When I was a kid learning to shoot, my dad taught me how to fire and manually de-cock a Colt 1911...I guess I just don't see the need for a de-cocking mechanism. As for the load in chamber indicator, the weapon will be either loaded (with a round in the chamber) or unloaded. Then add what Golddogman said about the compact, and that seals it for me.
So, now I am decided on the CZ 75 Compact 9mm, and I'll get it as soon as I can, and if the dealer doesn't have one in stock, I'll have him order one!
Thanks again, everyone, this is a great forum.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: dvsnse on December 16, 2005, 07:59:01 AM: Yeah, some folks can make much ado about nothing when it comes to a manual safety versus a decocker. It really does come down to personal preference.

With the CZ line of compact size pistols, you end up making trade-offs (e.g. weight versus decocker in the case of the Compact 75 and PCR). You get more trade-offs when you throw the P-01, Compact 75 .40 S&W, 40P, and CZ-100/110 into the mix. A thumb safety version of the PCR would be my ideal compact 9mm CZ. (I throw that out every chance I get, by the way.)

For whatever it's worth, there were some good deals on compact sized pistols in the Classifieds section recently. You might find a price that's too good to pass up if you lurk around there a while.
Title: Which CZ?
Post by: verbaltharhino on December 16, 2005, 11:41:29 AM: Quote
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For whatever it's worth, there were some good deals on compact sized pistols in the Classifieds section recently. You might find a price that's too good to pass up if you lurk around there a while.
A-Men. I started rifling through the checkbook after I saw some of the deals going on in the classifieds on NIB guns. I was able to hold out, though. It was rough, but I did it.