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GENERAL => General Discussion => Topic started by: KingPolymer-III on December 07, 2005, 02:04:18 PM

Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 07, 2005, 02:04:18 PM: breaking news
terrorist dead!
excellent news!
stay tuned!
Miami Int'l Airport!!!
Great job US Marshalls!
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 07, 2005, 02:10:00 PM: Assuming a Sig 226 with frangibles, to avoid airframe penetration?
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 07, 2005, 02:34:48 PM: The news reports I heard said that the marshal shot a passenger who CLAIMED to have a bomb as he was exiting the plane -- in the gateway. I haven't heard that a bomb was, in fact, in his pack.

Sounds like someone with mental problems picked the wrong flight to act up.

They've confirmed that the passenger is dead, but NOT that he had a bomb.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 07, 2005, 02:36:51 PM: By announcing that you have a bomb, you are no longer a passenger, you are a terrorist and have forfeited your life. Whether there is a bomb in the bag is no longer at issue. , the threat is real. Great job by the Marshalls., I am glad he's dead.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: CZJedi on December 07, 2005, 03:26:53 PM: Well, the guy was mentally handicapped, and off meds. His wife was running after him telling people he was no threat. Did the marshals do thier job? Yes. Is it sad that some innocent person died (supposing the newest reports are true)? Yes. Who is the real crimminal? His wife for letting somebody with this sort of behavior not take his meds while flying. Everybody knows that you don't even joke about this stuff, let alone run around the plane yelling that you have a bomb. His wife should know how he behaves when he is unmeddicated. By not giving him his meds, she let her husband not only lead to his own death, but endanger the lives of every person on that plane. What if the marshals missed? What if this was while the plane was in flight? Again, the marshals did what they were trained to do (and good shooting!!!). They should arrest that ass-clown of a wife, though.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 07, 2005, 04:01:53 PM: Having, at times past, lived with folks who were supposed to take meds but didn't, I can tell you that its NOT as simple as it sounds.

But I agree that it's sad that it ended as it did.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 07, 2005, 05:58:17 PM: Here is the one thing I don't understand and please help me understand this, it was said that he was bipolar,which I was under the impression of what, means that he has a chemical brain dissorder which results in extreme mood swings which are characterized with extreme "ups" and "lows", why would that make someone talk about BOMBS specifically!!!?!?!!, there is something very fishy here., lets see what the investigation yields. Something smells rotten here. This guy may have had a more specific agenda.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 07, 2005, 06:15:11 PM: Something fishy? No, not really. Its just that you have no personal experience with folks with this type of disorder.

Some folks with bipolar can seem perfectly normal at times, and quickly get severely depressed, or go the other way. When they're they other way they can get very irrational, hyperactive, talk to people who aren't there, do totally stupid things. Then they can quickly go DOWN, become paranoid, etc., etc. It varies with the person.

Some folks with bipolar can "cycle" (have mood swings) real fast -- its a personal thing, and every BP patient is different.

If they go without meds for a while (and the spouse or family member can't always tell that they HAVEN'T taken meds until they start acting strangely) -- they can go off the deep end real fast, seemingly fine one day, and really acting strangely a day or two later. When there's stress, traveling, etc., things get thrown askew.

The woman in question may have done everything she could, and may not have known things were bad until there was nothing she could do about it...

(Been there, done that.)
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 07, 2005, 06:19:35 PM: I agree with your explanation Walt, but if he was "irrational", why talk about bombs specifically and why reach for the bag?
Also, I understand that he dissobeyed numerous verbal commands from the Marshalls, was he that irrational where he spoke about bombs SPECIFICALLY and disregarded verbal commands from them?
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: Dos on December 07, 2005, 06:57:50 PM: The Air Marshalls did their job. Too bad and sad about the outcome though. I don't think any of us would have handled it differently. The lives of the many outweighed the life of the one. There's no defense against it for Law Enforcement.. What are we to do, ban bi-polar individuals from flying or have them tagged like cattle so an agent doesn't take a shot at them if they choose to scream out that they have a bomb? Come on. Then you'd have every potential terrorist wearing the same tag. Given the same circumstances as this example, it will happen again. I hope I'm wrong though.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 07, 2005, 07:05:28 PM: Just because YOU expect a specific sort of "irrational" behavior from a person with mental problems doesn't mean the person with the problem feels a need to behave as you expect. <grin>

If the guy in question was afraid and felt threatened, he may have believed making that sort of threat would keep the "bad guys" away from him. (He picked the wrong tool from his toolbag, but doing so was both rational and irrational at the same time -- but not necessarily unexpected.)

People who are perfectly rational play "mind" games with the folks around them, and people who are mentally ill don't suddenly forget how to play. A sick person will still know how to hit other peoples' hot buttons and will sometimes try to manipulate folks around them just like they did when things were more normal. Fact is, most of the time, they feel "normal" and don't realize how bizarre they're behaving.

This type of behavior is NOT as unusual as you believe.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 07, 2005, 07:09:55 PM: It will be interesting to see how the investigation pans out.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: CZJedi on December 07, 2005, 07:12:01 PM: Two things to remember here: What language did the marshals yell their orders in, and what language did the man understand; it was an international flight. Again, not blaming the marshals, they did what they were trained to do and were acting to potentially save the rest of the people on the plain. Second thing to remember, some people with this disorder can go so far into a mood swing that they want to commit suicide. Sometimes suicidal people do things that force the police to basically "do it for them". I spent a year working at a home where the majority of people there were manic depressive, and heard this theory many times.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 07, 2005, 07:15:10 PM: thats an excellent point, just because he was a US citizen, we expect him to speak English, but obviously he may have had only a nominal command of the language.
For those of you who have worked with the mentally ill, you have my respect, there is no way I would be able to do it.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 07, 2005, 07:45:10 PM: The guy shot was an American citizen, understood English. He was talking to other folks on the flight.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 07, 2005, 07:56:15 PM: I see, well, let us see what the investigation yields, but it is nice to see this type of readiness, I know we are not obviously like the Israeli El AL, but its nice to see more resolve and security WORKING in a post 9/11 environment, I hope it continues. It is certainly a sense of renewed faith and strength of confidence for the airline industry, I see folks, only having more confidence in flying, not less.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 07, 2005, 08:29:14 PM: its official from federal sources on the sig forum. It was a Sig P229 in .357SIG.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: Thren68 on December 07, 2005, 09:58:02 PM: Walt is exactly correct with his explanations of bipolar, and possible reasons.

To add to the fun...
Coming off some medications can basically lead to withdrawl symptoms that make their 'normal unmedicated behaviour' seem downright regular.

Some patients stop their meds on purpose because they feel that it's making them more sick. They often don't tell spouses/parents/ect until they're well into behaviour symptoms.

Just who was his wife trying to explain his illness to in the chaos? The flight attendant, another passenger, another Marshal that was guarding the remaining passengers? We don't know at this point so guessing is useless.

Just because they're mentally ill/off their meds does *not* mean that there isn't a bomb in the bag. The above classified folks have been known to be in deadly confrontations.

It is tragic and I'm sorry for the wife's loss. However it does seem justified by the LE and witness reports trickling out. Of more interest will be seeing how the courts handle the inevitable lawsuit(s).
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: EZ CZ75 on December 08, 2005, 01:52:20 AM: One other point of interest is that he was shot after he left the plane. Also, he was not shot until he reached into the bag containing the supposed bomb. Saying "bomb" is bad enough but reaching for "it" would be the end all for anyone. I don't believe that any LEO would have not shot the fella when he reached into his bag. It is unfortunate, but it seems to have been a text book case.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: dvsnse on December 08, 2005, 09:34:09 AM: I hear the armchair law enforcement has already started thanks to Katie Couric. I'm getting this third-hand, but apparently she gave a former air marhal a pretty good hindsight grilling over it. Expect there to be more.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 08, 2005, 11:06:17 AM: What did she say specifically? I know she's a committed marxist, but what specifically?
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: dvsnse on December 08, 2005, 11:49:46 AM: I looked on NBC's web site and it looks like there's a video of the interview. I haven't watched it myself, but the one specific thing I was told was that she asked why the marshall had to shoot the person, and why didn't he (the marshall) try to help the man instead.

Mike Gallagher (http://www.mikeonline.com/) was talking about it this morning. I heard this stuff from somebody who was listening to him.

edited to correct spelling.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: sudkampf on December 08, 2005, 12:00:26 PM: My understanding is that Katie asked if a warning shot would have been better or if they could have shot a limb instead of killing him.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 08, 2005, 12:06:12 PM: Thank you gentlemen, it only confirms that she is the one who is truly mentally ill.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 08, 2005, 05:00:03 PM: Warning shots and shooting to wound are things that are done in movies, and seldom done in the real world -- except by civilians who don't know any better.

(In an airport, where you gonna put that warning round?)

Shooting to wound or to warn are invitations to get yourself killed.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 08, 2005, 05:01:42 PM: "Shooting to wound or to warn are invitations to get yourself killed. "

An exceptionally good point that should be taught in every concealed carry class, but is not.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: EZ CZ75 on December 08, 2005, 11:43:07 PM: Just to be the devil for a minute, I am sure that Katie would say, Walt, that since this happened outside that the warning shot surely could have been shot safely.

Ignorance is bliss for many, but a PITA for others.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: BRASMAN on December 09, 2005, 03:26:18 AM: The Air Marshal was correct in what he did as far as I am concerned. When some one starts yelling bomb he can not sit down with them and try to figure out this guys history or if he is on meds or not or if he should have took them. He had a lot of peoples saftey to think about not just this guys irregardless of what kind of problems he may have. Yes it is sad but the Marshal sure did the correct thing.

Warnig shot?! LOL If the guy was a suicide bomber which the Air Marshal had to asssume no matter what the guys wife was saying a warning shot would be nothing but a "It is now time to push the button warning." The Air Marshal had to treat it like he had a bomb even if in reality he did not or the Air Marshal would have been neglegent in my opinion. Katey the Air head is just that an Air head.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 09, 2005, 06:05:23 AM: The other thing that is fascinating to me is that not for a second , did anyone, including the air marshalls, (I am not 100% sure) consider the wife as a potential accomplice trying to create a distraction. Deception is a powerful weapon.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on December 09, 2005, 07:26:43 AM: Quote
Quote:
I am sure that Katie would say, Walt, that since this happened outside that the warning shot surely could have been shot safely.
The guy was in the causeway/ramp on his way to the terminal. I'm sure that bullets that didn't hit the target would all fall down and not hurt anything.

Warning shots are not something to mess with when there are a LOT of people around. An active air terminal is a place with a LOT of people.

(As I read it, her question wasn't asked with a political agenda, but the sort of question that anyone might ask... and rightly ask, until the consequences are explained. It would have been a great opportunity to do a little educating.)

We don't know that the airport in South America, where the passenger boarded, had the latest technology to "sniff" out explosives, and a bag search might not have caught a C4-type bomb. While its very sad that a sick man was killed, I don't really know that the Air Marshals had much choice.

I feel better knowing that TWO AM's were involved and both fired... (It wasn't just one man's judgement call.)
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 09, 2005, 03:38:57 PM: "I feel better knowing that TWO AM's were involved and both fired... (It wasn't just one man's judgement call.) "

It would be interesting to analyze the wound ballistics from a .357SIG ,strictly for educational purposes. , when and if they become available.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: OMNICROMM on December 11, 2005, 12:37:08 AM: Hi people how are you? well i was reading about this shooting here at the forum and all what all of you said, and today here at my country is a big new this shooting, je je thanks to you i knew about it before the newspapers here!!, well the thing is one columnist here wrote something, and i want to share with all of you the principal idea, he said that the problem with the terrorist at your country is similar than our problem with the gangs (5 to 15 deads everyday) well here the police dont have the corage to do something because if they kill a gang member they could go to jail so is great that at your country no matter if was a mistake or not the police (the marshalls in this case) take a real action and shoot a potencial terrorist!!! sadly this man have some mental problemas but anyway the marshall do what he have to do and is great idea the people suport the police so they can continue doing what they have to do, take care about the honest decent and clean people taking real actions against the terroris if we copy that our country coul be better, well that is not exactly what he said but is the idea in general because we have real problems with gangs but the police dont use letal force because they are afraid in go to jail!! so have a great day and i only wanted to share this with all of you

Ciao

Alex from Guatemala
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: KingPolymer-III on December 11, 2005, 06:39:47 PM: Thanks for sharing Alex. I agree.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: BRASMAN on December 12, 2005, 12:05:42 AM: Thanks Alex. It is sad when bad guys have more legal protection than good guys.
Title: Air Marshall shoots bomb vielding terrrorist with bomb on
Post by: seamus on December 14, 2005, 05:39:30 AM: I have absolutely no respect for "little Katie Courage" Where's the vomit emoticon when you need it?! She shouldn't be allowed to call herself a journalist. It seems that almost every story covered by her is tainted by her rampant editorializing and second guessing. I'm sorry the guy lost it and caused his own demise but the greater good here was the safety of everyone else in that airport. I'm sure the marshall's concentration and focus was on the individual claiming to have a bomb and not the wife screaming. By the way, now there are bystanders who say they didn't hear the guy say anything about a bomb so I'm sure the story will continue for several weeks until Brad and Angelina adopt Angelina's lips.