The Original CZ Forum

CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ CLONE CLUB => Topic started by: DF_Hammack on December 10, 2017, 04:54:22 PM

Title: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: DF_Hammack on December 10, 2017, 04:54:22 PM
As the title suggests, this is... well, different. Everyone I know advocates training as much as possible, but it gets expensive, both in range time, AND ammunition. Not to mention travel time. Engagement training can even be a little dangerous with live ammo, especially when you are new at it. All in all, most folks don't do as much engagement training as they should, because it really takes a specialized range if you are live firing. So, what's a shooter to do?

I have long been an advocate for training with air guns. Everything you practice with an airgun directly transfers to conventional firearms. Did I mention it is cheap? You get 10 shots for the price of 1, 9mm round. Heck, a lot of Police Departments are doing engagement training with airSOFT. The idea is to get an air gun that is as close to what you carry as you can. This is not as hard as it might sound. There are good. repro airguns for almost every pistol on the market. The CZ is not very well represented for some reason... till now.

There is now a CZ licensed P-09, and it is so close it is hard to tell it from the real thing. This is not a toy. It shoots .177 cal, lead pellets*, through a rifled steel barrel, at over 400FPS, from a 16 round, drop out magazine, and is accurate out to 10 yards. It weighs in at a hefty 25.5oz (about the same as my B6P, unloaded). These guns are full blowback action. That is, the slide cycles when you fire. You'll be delighted to know, it won't break your bank to buy this. 

The good news is, you can shoot this in your back yard, even set up your own tactical course  Soda cans and bottles make great targets. So do paper plates. All of these are good, cheap target fodder (check local laws & ordinances). You can even use a pellet trap, and shoot them in your house. Everyone knows the more you shoot. the better you get. Just wrap your head around the idea, this is not a toy, it IS a training aid.

These guns are available for a limited time for about $80 with the discount code "GIFTWRAP".
As ugly as it is, I ordered mine in the putty color so I definitely would NOT pick up the wrong gun (it does look a lot like the P100 at a glance)

* It will also shoot BB's, but I don't recommend this, as it will degrade the rifling.

https://www.airgundepot.com/cz-p-09-duty-bb-pellet-pistol-fde.html?trk_msg=DQ8LRKS7ATE4D6DPMQQOVEMIVS&trk_contact=LKSB4OIDSR2RTCQS3U6QS8DFQ0&trk_sid=LME3MNR8PD794258CAVE4STQ88&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=10%25+Off+the+CZ+P-09&utm_campaign=2017+General+Sale&utm_content=Full+Auto+Holiday+Sale (https://www.airgundepot.com/cz-p-09-duty-bb-pellet-pistol-fde.html?trk_msg=DQ8LRKS7ATE4D6DPMQQOVEMIVS&trk_contact=LKSB4OIDSR2RTCQS3U6QS8DFQ0&trk_sid=LME3MNR8PD794258CAVE4STQ88&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=10%25+Off+the+CZ+P-09&utm_campaign=2017+General+Sale&utm_content=Full+Auto+Holiday+Sale)
(https://images.airgundepot.com/ay/airgundepot/cz-p-09-duty-bb-pellet-pistol-fde-4.gif)



 https://www.airgundepot.com/asg-cz-p-09-duty-air-pistol.html (https://www.airgundepot.com/asg-cz-p-09-duty-air-pistol.html)

(https://images.airgundepot.com/ay/airgundepot/cz-p-09-duty-air-pistol-6.gif#jmui=)
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: Tok36 on December 10, 2017, 07:20:26 PM
Neat. I ill need to think about it. Thank you for the post.
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: DF_Hammack on December 11, 2017, 06:55:35 AM
I thought you folks might find it interesting to to hear what an actual CZ carrier, who uses this gun to train with thinks of it....

https://youtu.be/7gDrcavhFNw (https://youtu.be/7gDrcavhFNw)
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: briang2ad on December 13, 2017, 12:25:33 PM
Nice!  Thank you for sharing!
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: ZanderMan on December 13, 2017, 12:41:42 PM
Been looking at the Sig versions, this appears to be cheaper.
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: MadDuner on December 13, 2017, 02:41:40 PM
Interesting for sure!
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: nonamehavei on December 16, 2017, 03:23:02 PM
Let?s see a P10c and a p07 to go along with it [emoji3][emoji106]
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: Practical Shooter on December 17, 2017, 05:43:43 PM
Don't get me wrong, because in principal, I like this idea and it seams very good, but ..... What would this BB gun give you that dry firing won't ? It my even take away from your dry firing practice.
80% of gun training is to master the trigger (the rest (20%) goes to grip, sights and posture, that you can do with the real gun), with most of it happening during live firing, when we all work hard not to flinch.
During the dry firing training, you get acquainted with your real trigger and its very specific attributes, the slack, the wall, the shot, that you can only get from the real gun, as the BB won't feel like the real thing, even so it might be very close. Don't forget, you are working to develop very acute and very fast muscle memories with one specific gun, you don't want to develop those muscle memories on a very similar gun (the BB), it will end up throwing you off.
The dry firing practice will also let you train in sight acquisition, and the BB cannot substitute the magazine change's training  (over a bed is very helpful).
Same for gaining speed from shooting from the holster, your real gun will also be a better tool to train with, as the BB is 26 oz vs 32 oz for the real gun.
Concerning the recoil management, it can only be done with practice with live ammo, their is no way around it. Each gun is too specific of the way it comes back to target.
My 2 dineros includes the following suggestion:
For the $90 of the P09 BB cost, get yourself the Lee single stage press and start reloading. You will cut your ammo cost by almost half. How do you think we can all afford shooting that much  8) we just reload a S&+t load of ammo.
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: DF_Hammack on December 17, 2017, 07:22:08 PM
Quote from: Practical Shooter on December 17, 2017, 05:43:43 PM
Don't get me wrong, because in principal, I like this idea and it seams very good, but ..... What would this BB gun give you that dry firing won't ? It my even take away from your dry firing practice.
80% of gun training is to master the trigger (the rest (20%) goes to grip, sights and posture, that you can do with the real gun), with most of it happening during live firing, when we all work hard not to flinch.
During the dry firing training, you get acquainted with your real trigger and its very specific attributes, the slack, the wall, the shot, that you can only get from the real gun, as the BB won't feel like the real thing, even so it might be very close. Don't forget, you are working to develop very acute and very fast muscle memories with one specific gun, you don't want to develop those muscle memories on a very similar gun (the BB), it will end up throwing you off.
The dry firing practice will also let you train in sight acquisition, and the BB cannot substitute the magazine change's training  (over a bed is very helpful).
Same for gaining speed from shooting from the holster, your real gun will also be a better tool to train with, as the BB is 26 oz vs 32 oz for the real gun.
Concerning the recoil management, it can only be done with practice with live ammo, their is no way around it. Each gun is too specific of the way it comes back to target.
My 2 dineros includes the following suggestion:
For the $90 of the P09 BB cost, get yourself the Lee single stage press and start reloading. You will cut your ammo cost by almost half. How do you think we can all afford shooting that much  8) we just reload a S&+t load of ammo.

What does it give you? FEEDBACK. You get to pull the trigger, fire at a target and see it hit the target. BB guns are OK if you can't do better, but they are only accurate to about 5 yards. This is a pellet gun. A ballistic lead pellet fired from a rifled steel barrel, and accurate to about 12 yards. In real life, defensive engagements mostly occur within a 12 yard radius.
When you practice engagement training, you draw and dry fire, that's cool, but you don't know if you would ever have hit anything. If you do engagement training with live fire, it requires a specialized range, a range safety officer, and the range usually requires a trainer on hand. With a pellet gun, you can set up soda cans (or even 2 liter bottles) in your back yard and actually see if you can hit anything, without burning ammo AND spending a couple of hundred dollars for the range time, several times a year, even if there is a suitable range in your area. It adds an element to your training that you have never experienced before. If you have never experienced it, even in simulation, how can you know how  you will react in real life? This adds to your training regimen something you need to practice, and often.
A properly set up course in your back yard can give you lots of insight. Set up multiple targets with different cans indicating shoot/don't shoot.  Better yet, have someone else set them up while your back is turned, so you start with a fresh assessment, rather than knowing where you put the targets. Have them time your drill. This aspect of carry is often overlooked. There is much more to being prepared as a concealed carrier than knowing how to hit the target when you pull the trigger. You need to practice every aspect of armed engagement to give yourself every possible edge. With an airgun, you are not limited to only when you can afford it, if ever.
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: MadDuner on December 17, 2017, 07:40:08 PM
I can see the value of using a life-size pellet gun to practice drawing, acquiring the target and receiving instant feedback about success or failure of your efforts for sure.  The muscle memory training would transfer to actual firearms, and the closer the "practice" gun was to the real thing - the better.  I don't see the difference in weights to be an issue at all. Very few of my handguns weigh the same.

If you have a place to do it, it sounds like a no-brainer to me.
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: The Guardian on December 17, 2017, 08:08:03 PM
Not to play mediator, all points made are valid......in reality both approaches can be a great aid to better "practice", in technique and actual live fire.......I don't think it has to be one or the other, but rather both  ;)
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: DF_Hammack on December 17, 2017, 08:19:18 PM
Quote from: The Guardian on December 17, 2017, 08:08:03 PM
Not to play mediator, all points made are valid......in reality both approaches can be a great aid to better "practice", in technique and actual live fire.......I don't think it has to be one or the other, but rather both  ;)

I absolutely agree. It should be both. I don't just shoot cans in my yard, I spend time on the range with my EDC to keep me proficient with the real deal. It would be great to go through a combat training exercise every month, but I don't have a suitable range in my area, not to mention the money to do it more than once a year. Being able to practice with my airgun keeps me proficient enough in engagement training that I am confident I can draw, fire and neutralize the threat, without endangering others.
Title: Re: And Now... Something Completely Different
Post by: Vinny on December 17, 2017, 08:30:05 PM
Quote from: The Guardian on December 17, 2017, 08:08:03 PM
Not to play mediator, all points made are valid......in reality both approaches can be a great aid to better "practice", in technique and actual live fire.......I don't think it has to be one or the other, but rather both  ;)

+1 on this POV and thanks as well to the OP.
Cool that it's a CZ replica. Yeah, I too wish it was a P-07 but I just might try it. A friend of mine in a (very) Blue State recently made me aware of how powerful air guns have become; quiet and not over-regulated like FIREarms. O0