The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Scorpion EVO => Topic started by: 3guneric on December 28, 2017, 11:18:55 PM
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I know there is a lot of love here for the Scorpions but:
As a new carbine owner I overlooked the 1st generation magazine issues, the need to do lots of upgrades, (installed HBI charging handle, AK safety and today trigger spring kit), and the need to address sling mounting options.
Well after spring install today, trigger would not always reset. The reset spring will not sit correctly and is "crossed over" to use a phrase from another post on this site. I reinstalled factory spring and it is good to go. (Sent HBI an email on this.)
I am well versed on firearms maintenance and operations and have extensive experience w/ AR, AK, FAL... (M1 Tanks as well.)
Some have told me that the CZ is the "Lego" of guns but really should you have to instantly go into buying upgrades on a brand new gun?
I have faith that in the end it can be a good little gun. However, at this time I would not count on it in a life or death situation. I also found myself rationalizing that price-wise it was still way below the cost of any of my handguns.
So, for me, the jury is out on weather or not it is a serious firearm or a PCC plinker.
If yours has fired thousands of rounds without a glitch I am glad for you and I hope mine will eventually do the same.
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Did you follow this video?
https://youtu.be/lNC3nqu17BQ
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For me, it's definitely a PCC plinker. However, I knew going in what to expect. Otb it was perfectly reliable with a crappy trigger.
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Did it not work out of the box?
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The origional gun had that heavy trigger spring for a reason - to overcome any potential friction issues of the bolt/fp safety.
If you install the HBI lighter trigger spring, be sure to clean the bolt safety and steel housing very well. Due to the nature of its design, if a single piece of grit gets between the bolt/fp safety and the steel trigger pack frame during reassembly, the trigger can get stuck forward after being pulled.
As far as the "crossed over" thing - I ran into this during assembly, but once corrected it was not an issue.
I would trust my life to the gun (even with the lighter spring) in a clean environment.
Dirty environment, no way, would have to be stock fcg for reliability.
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1. Yes I watched the video. Followed it step by step. The HBI spring shifts after a few shots, and just will not hold its position.
2. Yes it worked out of the box - but the trigger sucks (knew that going in.) That's why I did step #1 above.
3. I was thankful that the trigger screw was not welded.
4. The fact that CZ still ships Scorpions with the horrible safety is a puzzle to me. I read that it was bad but it was far worse than I expected. The HBI small AK safety is outstanding! Why does this not come on the gun in the first place?
5. Still not sure what mags to buy. I have the 2 factory mags but will need more. (Read all the posts on pros and cons.)
6. Sling mounts will still need modification.
7. Why the pinky sized charging handle?
My firearms experience to date 40+ years. Military (Army Armor) including arms room officer and now civilian instruction and 3 gun competitor. Handled some guns in my time.
I still have hopes for my little Scorpion but much of what I just described could easily be remedied by CZ before they sell to the public.
* NOTE: I have had many discussions over the years with reps from many of the top gun companies. When I asked those who represent guns known to have rough triggers why that is so I get the same immediate answer - "the Lawyers! O0
They fear lawsuits that may result if they have a finely tuned trigger.
My Sigs have the SRT ;D, my Colt Competition came w/ a Geissele 8)
Not expecting that at Scorpion price point - but come on.
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HBI has already sent a replacement! That is service. Will update this after installation.
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yeah bud, a call or email to hbi is all you need and they'll hook you up with replacement parts no questions.
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I know there is a lot of love here for the Scorpions but:
As a new carbine owner I overlooked the 1st generation magazine issues, the need to do lots of upgrades, (installed HBI charging handle, AK safety and today trigger spring kit), and the need to address sling mounting options.
Well after spring install today, trigger would not always reset. The reset spring will not sit correctly and is "crossed over" to use a phrase from another post on this site. I reinstalled factory spring and it is good to go. (Sent HBI an email on this.)
I am well versed on firearms maintenance and operations and have extensive experience w/ AR, AK, FAL... (M1 Tanks as well.)
Some have told me that the CZ is the "Lego" of guns but really should you have to instantly go into buying upgrades on a brand new gun?
I have faith that in the end it can be a good little gun. However, at this time I would not count on it in a life or death situation. I also found myself rationalizing that price-wise it was still way below the cost of any of my handguns.
So, for me, the jury is out on weather or not it is a serious firearm or a PCC plinker.
If yours has fired thousands of rounds without a glitch I am glad for you and I hope mine will eventually do the same.
Thousands of rounds through mine, suppressed & not, and no issues with mine. I'd trust mine with my life without question. I have minimal upgrades on mine.
I'm not sure I understand the mentality of "you have to upgrade it out of the box", when it is really personal preference.
Do you have to modify an AR-15, Glock, 1911, etc. out of the box for them to function? No. But they all have tons of aftermarket options available to tailor it to your preferences. Same goes for performance cars (corvettes, mustangs, etc.)
I can understand the frustration of something not working correctly, but you have to keep in mind that it is likely an exception to the norm, albeit the 30 round mags did have issues with cracking which CZ is making right.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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ksuchewie
When I talk to firearms competitors about the single most important element of the mechanics of an accurate gun, the answer is almost always - a quality trigger! It is generally acknowledged that the OEM Scorpion trigger leaves a lot to be desired. I am in this camp as well.
You say...
I'm not sure I understand the mentality of "you have to upgrade it out of the box", when it is really personal preference.
Do you have to modify an AR-15, Glock, 1911, etc. out of the box for them to function?
1. It is my preference to maximize the accuracy of the CZ. And the poor trigger is generally commented on this forum. Hence the success of HBI in filling that need.
2. I am looking for more than simply function. A MAC 10 will repeatedly spit out bullets down range (thousands of them) but I desire: function, accuracy, and reliability.
3. I have great respect for CZ weapons and know all will be fine in the end however, a few simple changes by CZ would take this from a good/great platform to outstanding.
4. Besides being a handy little carbine around the house/truck I do plan on using it in competition and longer range carbine accuracy will be key! Hence need for trigger upgrade.
My wife adds that for her the trigger/safety issue is a flaw to her shooting experience. Part of the reason I got the CZ was for her use at home and on the range.
Glad your happy with yours but I am just putting my experiences out there for others who are considering a CZ for similar purposes as myself. Thanks for adding your thoughts.
On another front many have invested far more $ into a SIG carbine only to have their firing pins break. Saw 2 different SIGs go down during one match.
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See this discussion regarding trigger spring "slipping" this is what I have just encountered. Maybe I will have to add the notch as well.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=76883.0
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If you polish the stock trigger you will get a pretty good trigger. It will be heavyish but it is not bad. I have had very few guns that I bought with a good trigger, the only one that comes to mind is my Sig 1911, every other gun I?ve bought ranging from cheap AK?s to Ruger SR556 and AUG have had useable to pretty schmeh triggers out of the box, it is considered an acceptable standard because the general public has used its wallet to show that they?ll still shell out $1500 for a gun with an average creepy possibly heavy trigger which will usually clean up with a good polish.
As for the buying upgrades on a brand new gun, you really don?t have to buy upgrades, the scorpion cane ready to go out of the box. If you wanted to change things that?s a preference thing but out of the box you could slam home a magazine rack the bolt and go to town
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1. After the first couple of shots I knew that safety had go and pronto. Very stiff and worse the way it digs into your hand.
2. Trigger was an issue I knew about going into the deal.
3. I got the extended charging handle because I was placing an order w/ HBI any way.
All I am saying that with some minor adjustments by CZ, the gun can be even better out of the box.
Conversation #1: (The way it would be today.)
"The CZ Scorpion is a really nice 9mm carbine. It is priced right, made by a great company, and is a good shooter. Its modular design really lends itself to customization - you will love it. BUT many shooters have noted that the trigger is rough, the safety may dig into your shooting hand, sling attachment points will not take QD mounts, however there are lots of aftermarket companies stepping up to help out."
Conversation #2: (Some future date after CZ upgrades design.)
"The CZ Scorpion is a really nice 9mm carbine. It is priced right, made by a great company, and is a smooth and accurate shooter. Its modular design really lends itself to customization - you will love it!"
My main point is that this buying experience could be so much better with some very simple fixes by CZ. CZ could destroy the competition.
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Just a comment on #1
The stock safety dug in to the top of my index finger so bad during USPSA matches it would draw blood
BUT, I like riding the safety with my thumb and index finder at the same time, just like my AR with ambi safety. Thumb OFF, index finger ON.
Adjusting the safety release tension was easy, just tweak the trigger case with a little bend up.
The Switchback grip with flat back strap was perfect in lowering my hand just enough so my index finger never rubs the safety. Worked perfect last USPSA match, 10 bays and well over 200 rounds.
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ksuchewie
When I talk to firearms competitors about the single most important element of the mechanics of an accurate gun, the answer is almost always - a quality trigger! It is generally acknowledged that the OEM Scorpion trigger leaves a lot to be desired. I am in this camp as well.
You say...
I'm not sure I understand the mentality of "you have to upgrade it out of the box", when it is really personal preference.
Do you have to modify an AR-15, Glock, 1911, etc. out of the box for them to function?
1. It is my preference to maximize the accuracy of the CZ. And the poor trigger is generally commented on this forum. Hence the success of HBI in filling that need.
2. I am looking for more than simply function. A MAC 10 will repeatedly spit out bullets down range (thousands of them) but I desire: function, accuracy, and reliability.
3. I have great respect for CZ weapons and know all will be fine in the end however, a few simple changes by CZ would take this from a good/great platform to outstanding.
4. Besides being a handy little carbine around the house/truck I do plan on using it in competition and longer range carbine accuracy will be key! Hence need for trigger upgrade.
My wife adds that for her the trigger/safety issue is a flaw to her shooting experience. Part of the reason I got the CZ was for her use at home and on the range.
Glad your happy with yours but I am just putting my experiences out there for others who are considering a CZ for similar purposes as myself. Thanks for adding your thoughts.
On another front many have invested far more $ into a SIG carbine only to have their firing pins break. Saw 2 different SIGs go down during one match.
Completely agree with all just said, I misinterpreted your original post. My bad.
FWIW, I modified my CZ trigger with the HBI spring & shooters element flat shoe. A world of difference and it does make the gun more enjoyable to shoot.
The only thing I might add (for everyone) to keep in mind when comparing triggers to other guns is were simply replacing a $10 spring and doing some filing. A Geiselle trigger on a AR will easily run you $250 so keep in mind the price differences. Maybe one day someone will create a drop in replacement trigger/hammer set similar to an AR.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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I agree that the opportunity is just hanging out there for: "Maybe one day someone will create a drop in replacement trigger/hammer set similar to an AR."
My replacement HBI spring due tomorrow: will update.
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After upgrading to the HBI springs, I still found the trigger pull/reset rather long. I fixed this in my gun with three shims, one to shorten the over travel (0.010" - front of the trigger), one to reduce the trigger pull (0.032" - rear of the trigger) and one to shorten the reset (0.016" - front of the disconnector foot). The trigger post the safety "half moon" sits on top of needs to be filed down to accommodate the "pre-loading" of the trigger.
The HBI springs, a bit of trigger polishing in key spots to remove friction, and the addition of the three metal shims to shorten up the trigger travel really helped the stock trigger feel a lot better to me.
I really love the HBI long AK safety on the right, mini AK on the left.
- DanT Phoenix, AZ
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Dan T:
Have read your very detailed postings here on the use of shims to further enhance the trigger. Well Done!
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Installs aftermarket parts. Gun doesn't work.
Gun is crap. :P
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Initial press reports that the Chrysler XM-1 tank is crap due to serious design flaws - after correcting these issues the renamed M1 tank has dominated for 30+ years. (I was in Germany when they arrived and led a platoon of them.)
Anything mechanical faces these issues when new - how about the M16 debut debacle in Vietnam?
There are exceptions - the B-17 Bomber was really one of the few prewar designs that was of real value. Look at the initial issues with the German Tiger 1 and 2's. But once they were ironed out - wow. Same with the German A4 (V2) rockets.
So be patient and learn from the process.
My latest Update:
Received my free HBI replacement springs. Installed them and things were much better but the "shifting" of the spring off the arm did repeat itself - though not as often.
Contacted HBI and thanked them for trying to work this out but that my Scorpion did not seem to want to cooperate. Told them I would send both spring kits back if they wanted to look them over but that I did not need or expect a refund. Am still very pleased w/ the AK safety and charging handle.
They have offered to pay shipping both ways and want to examine my trigger pack, and install spring kit! I have not answered them yet and am considering taking them up on the offer. Have just been weighing the feel of my present OEM springs versus having the lighter kit.
The jury is still out.
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Initial press reports that the Chrysler XM-1 tank is crap due to serious design flaws - after correcting these issues the renamed M1 tank has dominated for 30+ years. (I was in Germany when they arrived and led a platoon of them.)
Anything mechanical faces these issues when new - how about the M16 debut debacle in Vietnam?
There are exceptions - the B-17 Bomber was really one of the few prewar designs that was of real value. Look at the initial issues with the German Tiger 1 and 2's. But once they were ironed out - wow. Same with the German A4 (V2) rockets.
So be patient and learn from the process.
My latest Update:
Received my free HBI replacement springs. Installed them and things were much better but the "shifting" of the spring off the arm did repeat itself - though not as often.
Contacted HBI and thanked them for trying to work this out but that my Scorpion did not seem to want to cooperate. Told them I would send both spring kits back if they wanted to look them over but that I did not need or expect a refund. Am still very pleased w/ the AK safety and charging handle.
They have offered to pay shipping both ways and want to examine my trigger pack, and install spring kit! I have not answered them yet and am considering taking them up on the offer. Have just been weighing the feel of my present OEM springs versus having the lighter kit.
The jury is still out.
If you've not done any kind of polishing the reset can be an issue or if you didn't use the shim in the spring kit that might be the cause.
If you're game for another option, we offer an install and polish option for the lowers that help reduce trigger pull, trigger reset and pull weight. The total package runs $93.94 (trigger, install, polish and spring kit). I'll test it out for you and see if we can get it running smoother, lighter and shorter for you.
I just wanted to offer another solution.
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To SE:
Thanks for your kind offer! However am having very positive interactions with HBI on this and am taking them up on their offer to install and inspect.
Am looking into polishing options as well though.
Thanks
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Mailed my trigger pack off to HBI today for them to look into my Scorpion. Since they are going to have it have asked them to upgrade/install one of their triggers as well.
I had just about accepted that I would have to keep OEM springs. We will see.
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To SE:
Thanks for your kind offer! However am having very positive interactions with HBI on this and am taking them up on their offer to install and inspect.
Am looking into polishing options as well though.
Thanks
Great people over there, I'm glad it's working out for you. Most important thing is to get that scorpion upgraded and working as you want it. That's why we all offer these products and services.
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Update:
48 hours ago I placed my trigger group in the post from Winchester, Virginia to HBI in Arizona. (Their dime) Earlier this evening received email that they looked over things (all seemed OK), installed springs, and USPS label created to return to me. WOW that is service.
It looks like the install error was probably on my end.
Will update after I test fire.
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I had reset issues after the HBi spring kit and a light polish job. After assuring the trigger roll pin was not rubbing in the lower, I found it to be a mix of poor relations between the sear to hammer and a bit under powered trigger reset spring. Gun would work fine until it got a bit dirty (I shoot mine primarily suppressed and noticed a fair amount of dirt in the trigger pack from doing so). When a bit dirty, the reset issue would occur with the HBi spring kit since it didn't have enough force to overcome the poor sear to hammer mating with the added dirt. Worked fine until dirty...this is with a polish job on all the trigger pack contact surfaces as well. If I'd reset the trigger slow enough after shots, it'd get stuck and I'd have to force it forward to reset it.
I ended up cutting a handful of coils off the oem trigger reset spring and stoning the disconnectors, hammer, and sear. MUCH smoother and no more issues since. I suggest looking at the relation between your sear and hammer while the trigger pack is dirty if you have reset issues. See if this is where your trigger is picking up the resistance during reset. Very easy to see if you work the trigger reset with the lower off. If you find that this is your hang up point, then you just need to take a bit off the back of the hammer and the underlip of the sear, polish, and perhaps mod the oem reset spring for slightly more forward oomph on the trigger shoe.
Basically, I had a little to much force being put on the sear from the hammer during trigger reset. I alleviated it by removing material and then polishing the mating surfaces so that the force was lessened allowing the trigger to reset easier. The cut down oem trigger reset spring was just for good measure. My trigger breaks at 4.2ish lbs with a tad bit of creep(like the Glock's gen 4 spongy creep that comes after pulling past the wall). Cleaning up the front of the hammer and disconnectors was just to smooth out the trigger pull, nothing to do with the reset issue.
It was a frustrating endeavor as I had to take a little off here and there at a time then test fit but the results are a gun that hasn't been cleaned in a few thousand rounds without trigger problems. I wish the trigger was crisper, but it ain't awful. It's just no Elftmann...
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Thanks for your info. Never fired mine enough to get dirty yet! Will update this weekend.
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I agree that the opportunity is just hanging out there for: "Maybe one day someone will create a drop in replacement trigger/hammer set similar to an AR."
My replacement HBI spring due tomorrow: will update.
Actually CZ Custom already has a 'drop in' replacement trigger that has extremely short travel/reset:
https://czcustom.com/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1/evo-custom-parts/cz-evo-trigger-pack-czc.html (https://czcustom.com/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1/evo-custom-parts/cz-evo-trigger-pack-czc.html) Only $224 :(
There is a video of Angus showing the short of travel and reset CZ Custom trigger for Scorpion. I wish I have the dough to acquire one :)
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That is true.
IMO CZ should sell an upgraded Scorpion with the improved trigger out of the box. Having just purchased a new gun I opted to go the spring upgrade route. Didn't want to buy a new gun - order $200 + trigger upgrade, and place the old trigger pack in the spare parts bin.
(Also the added cost of the CZ enhanced trigger pushed total investment too high for me. For that kind of money I would be in striking distance of a much higher quality gun.)
So we will see.
I had hoped to be posting my observations on HBI's spring and install but my trigger is currently in USPS limbo - storm in Memphis has delayed delivery.
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Internal drag makes the reset less reliable, as the trigger spring needs to overcome this drag to do reset.
I have found the number one drag point is that long lever on the same roll pin as the hammer. Thus lever rubs against the trigger side wall. Polishing this lever on the side against the wall and polishing the wall relieves the largest source of trigger "drag" that keeps reset from working well. I also a tiny bit of gun grease between the two.
The number two drag point for me is the trigger hooks on the front side of the hammer. I polish both the bottom side of the trigger hooks and the hammer shelf. However, those will not effect reset.
Likewise I would polish the rear hammer shelf and the bottom side of the disconnector hook that rides on it. This would definitely affects the reset drag and thus makes the reset less reliable.
Thus for more reliable resets, clean up that lever, the wall it rubs against, the rear disconnector hook and the rear hammer shelf spot it sits on. A tiny spot of grease under the disconnector hook and the level side against the wall helps also.
Also, if you want, it is a "drop dead simple" thing to wind your own trigger spring using vice grips and a 1/8th inch drill bit as a coil form. I normally use 0.039" music wire (a.k.a. spring steel) or the next step down 0.037". I have a thread on trigger shim modifications, and that thread points to an earlier one that shows how to wind a trigger spring. The wire thickness and the angle between the two legs sets the force of the spring. Wider leg spacing = more force, less leg spacing = less force.
If you want to play with this, for $3 I can send you a foot of both 0.039" and 0.037" music wire. A trigger spring maybe takes 1" to 1.5" of wire. Use your current spring to get an idea of the leg length and ballpark leg angle to start working from.
- DanT Phoenix, AZ
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Today I will be giving my trigger pack /Scorpion its test drive. Just got my pack from HBI yesterday but spent the evening fishing people out of ditches - 1" of snow here.
Trigger seems great dry firing so will post review/updates once I run a bunch of mags through it.
Dan your info, postings, and offer are appreciated though.
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Sir,
Keep us posted.
Thanks for helping people out of the ditches.
Lots of those around here in Northern Virginia when we get an inch of snow.
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Here it is:
1. There are two companies that totally stand by their product and will go the extra mile to make sure that the customer is satisfied - more importantly they want to ensure that the customer's firearm can be counted upon. They are Dillon Precision and now I will add HB Industries to my golden list.
2. My HBI upgrades (Extended Charging Handle, AK (small) safety, Safety Delete and Trigger Spring
Kit) have all proven their value. This tread has tracked my initial attempts to make my carbine a better gun by adding some highly praised upgrades. The spring issue was most frustrating - it would just not hold its position. HBI did not want me to accept this fact. I was willing to stick w/ the OEM spring. They asked me to let them install the springs for me, paid postage both ways, and were very quick about it.
The Jury's verdict:
1. The spring now appears to hold its position and is to be counted on!
2. It is much lighter and slightly smoother. I do not have the ability to precisely measure the pull but I am satisfied. The OEM spring was not good and the reset was very "clunky." Not so now.
3. This evening (in 21 degree environment) ran through 100+ rounds. The HBI spring reset every time and in a positive way! ;D
4. Varied shooting from very slow/precise to blazing fast. Zero trigger issues just lots of flying snow clods.
5. Visually inspect spring = 8)
Conclusion:
1. HBI is to be counted on even after the sale - they truly want things to be right.
2. HBI accessories are trustworthy, quality, and well designed.
3. The HBI spring kit does what it promises, however you may want to consider having a gunsmith install. I am skilled when it comes to working on firearms - followed HBI's excellent video - but still did not get install right. I do believe that the install error was me but still not sure what I did wrong.
I have many more rounds to fire through this little Scorpion but we are up and running thanks to HBI.
Now if HBI could make an all-metal, high cap Scorpion magazine - that would be nice.
Will update.