The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: Litshoot on December 29, 2017, 04:54:14 PM
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Very controversial i know, but i am a fan of birdshot for home defense. Its still got a lot of punch and wont have to worry about too much overpenetration. Amd follow it up with slugs in the magazine. Best case it drops them no collateral, otherwise it should definately slow them up for that next slug. And unlike buck, there only one projectile to worry about with slugs making them my preference over buck shot
Seth
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Litshoot: That depends on what size "birdshot" you use. At close range, it simply does not matter. But at range farther the 20 Yards, you would begin to see lack of penetration for defense purposes in small shot like #8.
On the other hand, if one were to move up in shot size up to #4 or even better #2, you would get deep penetration on an attacker--but you would not get pass-thru on as many layers of drywall as you would with 9mm pistol or Buckshot or slugs.
The only advantage of birdshot for home defense would be that it would be less lethal. That would be a decided disadvantage when your attacker takes you to civil court lawsuit for pain and damages for medical fees and mental care.
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A shotgun for home defense is just junk. Period. There's no case for it and absolutely no one who knows what they're talking about will ever recommend it. Sorry to be so blunt about it but it's just the truth.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBV1OZHiTw0
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A shotgun for home defense is just junk. Period. There's no case for it and absolutely no one who knows what they're talking about will ever recommend it. Sorry to be so blunt about it but it's just the truth.
That's one of those general all including statements that really has little fact to back it up. I think a shotgun with a proper load will flat out level and intruder in the spot they stand. The sound of a pump action racking a round isn't a bad deterrent either. Point it in the doorway of the hallway and your gonna hit whatever is there.
Now where I agree with you would be in a home invasion/hostage situation. Your not gonna take that shot with a shotgun because your likely to hit your love one as well so a shotgun is useless there.
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A shotgun for home defense is just junk. Period. There's no case for it and absolutely no one who knows what they're talking about will ever recommend it. Sorry to be so blunt about it but it's just the truth.
That's one of those general all including statements that really has little fact to back it up. I think a shotgun with a proper load will flat out level and intruder in the spot they stand. The sound of a pump action racking a round isn't a bad deterrent either. Point it in the doorway of the hallway and your gonna hit whatever is there.
Now where I agree with you would be in a home invasion/hostage situation. Your not gonna take that shot with a shotgun because your likely to hit your love one as well so a shotgun is useless there.
All generalizations are false, including this one. ;-)
I?ve always felt the choice of home defense weapon should factor in the actual home and occupants to be defended ... I can see a rifle, a shotgun or a pistol being ?best? depending on the particulars.
For my situation, nothing beats a pistol.
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Raining_Brass: All critters I've killed with shotguns seem to think otherwise. Perhaps you are responding to the "birdshot" notion. But with larger sized shot up to Buckshot, the only thing that might actually be more effective than a shotgun with low-powered #4 buckshot would be a H&K MP-5 set on 2-Shot Burst mode. But I don't have one of those. There is a staggering variety of loads and ammos appropriate for hunting, defense and warfare. You can even vary them in the magazine and still have perfect reliability from birdshot to rifled slugs.
Our soldiers preferred shotguns for trench warfare over the .45 handgun in WWI. Police still use shotguns for house entries and not just because they blow the door, they are good once ya get inside too.
There isn't a land-living critter on earth that hasn't been knocked off with a shotgun. That includes lions, tigers and Cape Buffalo. So to say it is junk for self-defense is just plain wrong.
A shotgun for home defense is just junk. Period. There's no case for it and absolutely no one who knows what they're talking about will ever recommend it. Sorry to be so blunt about it but it's just the truth.
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I say again: a shotgun for home defense is not a good choice. Period. I don?t care what ridiculous combination of bird shot (even more stupid than the idea of carrying a shotgun itself) or slugs or whatever you plan on keeping in the tube. Absolutely, positively NO ONE reputable would ever tell someone to use a shotgun for home defense, unless it?s literally all you have.
You can try to use whatever logic pops into your mind to make it a good choice, and in the real world it will still never be a good choice.
You can google literally hundreds of articles and write ups, etc about why I?m correct...many from extremely knowledgeable and experienced people on the subject.
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Gentlemen, keep this civil or it gets locked. Period.
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I say again: a shotgun for home defense is not a good choice. Period. I don?t care what ridiculous combination of bird shot (even more stupid than the idea of carrying a shotgun itself) or slugs or whatever you plan on keeping in the tube. Absolutely, positively NO ONE reputable would ever tell someone to use a shotgun for home defense, unless it?s literally all you have.
You can try to use whatever logic pops into your mind to make it a good choice, and in the real world it will still never be a good choice.
You can google literally hundreds of articles and write ups, etc about why I?m correct...many from extremely knowledgeable and experienced people on the subject.
I?m sure there are many who feel this way but it is not as black and white as you present it.
First, this is not a case of either/or - one can leverage a shotgun and pistol as part of their home defense strategy. A shotgun is a great ?safe room? tool to have available once you have everyone barricaded and are waiting for law enforcement to arrive.
Second, a shotgun?s strength is in being able to leverage different loads quickly which could be an asset for those with rural properties where the ?intruder? could be the four legged kind. Home defense doesn't necessarily just refer to "apartment" or "house" defense, after all.
Lastly, as far as reputable instructors who do feel shotguns have a place in home defense, I know Tom Givens has some great thoughts on the subject. For example:
https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/download-brochures/44-our-journal/106-shotguns-for-home-defense
Should it be everyone?s first choice? No. I still feel that, if you had to choose one, a (suppressed) pistol is probably the more flexible choice for most people... but to dismiss a shotgun out of hand is just short sighted.
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MrGunsngear has more experience than the 'average reviewer' including real world. The reason I posted (its worth the viewing) because he doesn't make any gross generalizations. He also points out the truth that staying in place in YOUR environment will likely save you and expose your perp.
Thus, also more rounds is good. The P09 does VERY well in this regard and affords a good light of your choice - even max lumens if you want. So... as a pistol goes, the P09 likely cannot be beat. If you change systems (DA/SA to C/L - as many folks tend to do over time) the gun is timeless as it allows you to do the change easily.
I add that 9mm is best as in the P09 with the right mags you have 21 rounds. Can't beat it with a stick.
But... EVERY piece of data points to this: If you have a rifle and your opponent has a pistol, you have a major advantage. That is why he makes the comment and starts there. I was also 'anti-shotgun' for various reasons, but if you have a handy one, you still have an advantage with the buckshot he recommends over a pistol. I'd rather havv a carbine. Better yet an SBR. Better yet, 7.62X39. And... maybe aVZ 58. :)
But to pistols - keep the P09!!!
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Don't care what you think about the dude or the channel..
But for those who even think bird shot on a 12 gauge is a viable home defense or self defense optjon, go hang out with Joe Biden
Check at the 2:30ish mark, not 3 feet away, full on 12 gauge birdshot to the face....... take a guess what happened
https://youtu.be/_F_KuFzjOGA
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Don't care what you think about the dude or the channel..
But for those who even think bird shot on a 12 gauge is a viable home defense or self defense optjon, go hang out with Joe Biden
Check at the 2:30ish mark, not 3 feet away, full on 12 gauge birdshot to the face....... take a guess what happened
Not sure why anyone would disparage John or ASP... he puts out solid content.
One recurring thought I have regarding self defense tools and training - it seems that sometimes people form their opinions based on how they think things would work or how they feel about them... rather than on how the body of collected data actually says things work.
There are two kinds of stops in a defensive encounter: psychological and physiological. A psychological stop is one where someone decides to stop doing what they are doing in the face of (armed) resistance. Some (perhaps even most) criminals are simple opportunists - they want a safe, easy score and have no desire to face off against a "determined" target - but not ALL criminals are like that. That is where a physiological stop is required - that type of criminal is stopped because they were physically made to stop.
Since I have no way of knowing where a criminal may fall in that psychological/physiological spectrum, I try to choose tools that will be effective in the worst case scenario. If the simple act of drawing my pistol or presenting a long gun stops an encounter - great! I'm not going to bet my life on that happening, though.
FWIW, my primary HD gun is my carry pistol but I supplement that with a "safe room" gun: a 12ga semi-auto loaded with Federal Flite-Control 00 Buck. I may only have one opportunity to stop a threat and I want that once chance to be as effective as possible. Let no pellet go to waste! ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N56wQG0dXGA
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Don't care what you think about the dude or the channel..
But for those who even think bird shot on a 12 gauge is a viable home defense or self defense optjon, go hang out with Joe Biden
Check at the 2:30ish mark, not 3 feet away, full on 12 gauge birdshot to the face....... take a guess what happened
Not sure why anyone would disparage John or ASP... he puts out solid content.
One recurring thought I have regarding self defense tools and training - it seems that sometimes people form their opinions based on how they think things would work or how they feel about them... rather than on how the body of collected data actually says things work.
There are two kinds of stops in a defensive encounter: psychological and physiological. A psychological stop is one where someone decides to stop doing what they are doing in the face of (armed) resistance. Some (perhaps even most) criminals are simple opportunists - they want a safe, easy score and have no desire to face off against a "determined" target - but not ALL criminals are like that. That is where a physiological stop is required - that type of criminal is stopped because they were physically made to stop.
Since I have no way of knowing where a criminal may fall in that psychological/physiological spectrum, I try to choose tools that will be effective in the worst case scenario. If the simple act of drawing my pistol or presenting a long gun stops an encounter - great! I'm not going to bet my life on that happening, though.
FWIW, my primary HD gun is my carry pistol but I supplement that with a "safe room" gun: a 12ga semi-auto loaded with Federal Flite-Control 00 Buck. I may only have one opportunity to stop a threat and I want that once chance to be as effective as possible. Let no pellet go to waste! ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N56wQG0dXGA
No I agree with you.
And I guess as of late some other channels have been getting on him or so me bleep idk.
But more importantly video shows a chick take a full 12g birdshot to the face look coinfused and then just walked away
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But more importantly video shows a chick take a full 12g birdshot to the face look coinfused and then just walked away
That whole situation was crazy.
Also shows how people float around in their little bubble oblivious to what is going on around them.
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Where I live, in central VA, the only modern fire arms you can hunt deer with are shot guns, with buckshot. They don't even allow slugs. I know deer aren't armed but they are quick, strong, and usually moving through areas of semi concealment (brush) when engaged with the shotgun and they get killed by the thousands every hunting season. I don't hunt down here.
I've wondered, over the years about the "growth" of shotgun shells. Three inch was the big one when I was younger, but not many of them around. Then it was 3&1/2" 12 ga., then Ithaca came out with that 10 ga. monster. Is there something bigger now than the 3&1/2 12 ga? Have they gone to a 4" shell yet?
I have a 12 ga. Ithaca M37 loaded by the bed. Not once have I grabbed it and gone walking around the house in the dark. I have an AR15 carbine by the bed. Not once have I grabbed it and gone walking around the house in the dark. I did take it on a couple of night time walk around the property inspections a few years back when that hound dog would wake me up at zero dark thirty acting like the dog pen was being invaded. I have a P09 in the cabinet by the bed. If I have to get up in the middle of the night and walk around the house in the dark, I grab the P09 and a flashlight I keep on the cabinet next to the cabinet I keep the P09 in. There's a light on the P09, but I prefer to have one in my hand, too. The light on the gun is back up in case I drop/lose the one in my hand.
In my house I've noticed:
1. The shotgun has the least number of rounds and is the hardest to walk around with
2. The AR15 has the most rounds and is a little easier to walk around with.
3. The P09 has nearly as many rounds as the AR15 and is the easiest to walk around with.
Now, most of us will never need to use all those guns we keep around, and a good thing, too. That doesn't change the need to think about what could happen, think about what we might need to do, think about what we would use to survive it or talk about it with "friends" to see if our ideas make sense or if there are still things out there we can learn about.
You know, when it comes down to it which of the three do we feel the most comfortable with? I know I spend a lot more time carrying, handling, cleaning, shooting my pistol than I do the AR15 or the 12 ga. So, what do you want in your hands that dark and stormy night? The fire arm you're most comfortable with and have the most trigger time on? Or something else?
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M1A4ME asked: "I've wondered, over the years about the "growth" of shotgun shells. Three inch was the big one when I was younger, but not many of them around. Then it was 3&1/2" 12 ga., then Ithaca came out with that 10 ga. monster. Is there something bigger now than the 3&1/2 12 ga? Have they gone to a 4" shell yet?"
The best advancement in Shotgun ammo that actually increases a shotgun's effectiveness and range has been the invention of heavier than lead loads. One of the most well-known and widely misunderstood is a substance nicknamed "Hevi-Shot" which is actually 13% heavier than lead and ballistically superior in every way to lead. Unfortunately, there's a lot of confusion since the company's name is also "Hevi-Shot" and they produce many different kinds of non-lead shot--not all of which are 13% heavier than lead.
Real heavier than lead Hevi-Shot increases the effective range and penetration of any shotgun. It also makes for tighter patterns depending on the choke used. A Shotgun loaded with heavier than lead Buckshot is a one-shot instant kill with a center-mass hit on an attacker within your house. Lead would be lethal too, but heavier than lead shot increases the penetration and patter out to longer ranges--longer than many pistoleros might believe until they see it.
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But more importantly video shows a chick take a full 12g birdshot to the face look coinfused and then just walked away
That whole situation was crazy.
Also shows how people float around in their little bubble oblivious to what is going on around them.
Right. That's why I like this dudes videos..
I guess just the other day the yankeemarshal was trying to start a "internet feud" but I'm more or less sure it's just tym is just trying to stay relevant and troll..
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But more importantly video shows a chick take a full 12g birdshot to the face look coinfused and then just walked away
That whole situation was crazy.
Also shows how people float around in their little bubble oblivious to what is going on around them.
Right. That's why I like this dudes videos..
I guess just the other day the yankeemarshal was trying to start a "internet feud" but I'm more or less sure it's just tym is just trying to stay relevant and troll..
YM can be funny occasionally ... but generally he just gets under my skin. My life has been better since purging 98% of the gun channel personalities from my subscription feed - I just want substance these days ;-)
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Fake CZ Name, where I was sort of going there was the corporations constantly looking for ways to build sales/increase profits. You know, this one is better because....so buy it.
Will a 3" magnum really guarantee the deer will drop where it's hit? Will the 3.5"? Will the 10 ga? Yeah, I know more lead is better, sometimes. But quite often people want a 3" magnum because they failed to kill something with the 2&3/4" shell, or the 3.5" because they failed to kill something with the 3" shell.
I had a buddy back home (that ground hog hunting buddy) who traded a beautiful little 20 ga. A5 light weight shotgun (chambered for 3" magnums) "because it wouldn't kill a turkey." That's right. A 20 ga. firing 3" magnum shells with #4 shot will not kill a turkey. It was the gun/chamberings fault, not his. My dad killed multiple turkeys every year with a 12 ga. 2&3/4 shotgun with 1 oz. loads of 7&1/2 shot. So did my brothers (I finally got one, the last year I hunted at home). So, back to the question, if people could make the shot, would they need the high dollar special shotguns shooting the high dollar special shells?
I will admit, if I was going to have to kill a big grizzly bear with my shotgun I'd want the Ithaca 10 ga. I know, we're not talking about hunting bears, I'm just trying to say that more power isn't always the answer. That power has to hit the target in the right spot.
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Since this is about shotguns, did I miss the part where someone suggested taking their proposed home/self defense shells to the range with their shotgun and testing the pattern sizes at different ranges with different shot sizes?
In my experience you can have a modified choke shotgun shoot tighter patterns than a full choke shotgun if the right sized/brand shot shells are fired through the modified choke and the "wrong" sized/brand shot shells are fired through the full choke gun.
You can change brands or change shot size and have a big effect on pattern diameter or even shape/distribution of shot within the pattern.
Ever seen the you tube videos on "cut" shotgun shells? Interesting. Never tried it myself.
Have we (should we??) discuss type of shotgun (pump, semi-auto)? I have both. The (John Browning designed) Ithaca M37 and the (John Browning designed) Auto 5. Both in 12 ga. Both with extended magazines. Both loaded with 00 buckshot. I trust both of them. I've owned/carried/hunted with M37's since I was 12 years old (dang that thing used to kick the snot out of me till I got bigger). Because of that experience and trust in the machines John Browning designed, I trust that old Auto 5, too (plus, I took it completely apart when I got it, cleaned/lubed it up and put all new springs and friction rings in it).
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Choice of HD gun is not nearly as important as having a plan and educating everyone who lives under your roof of said plan. Should the unlikely event occur that someone is in your kingdom uninvited all is not lost. The end result is to protect you and yours and you have all the advantages
1st- you have the home field advantage, you know the ins and outs you know the choke points you know the barriers and possible hidy holes
2nd- you?ve got the element of surprise if you play your cards right (this is where the guys that say racking a pump gun as loud as you can is a good deterrent...no, just hell no) <?on this tangent real quick if your go to gun is not cocked and locked you are using the same logic as the idiot who carries on an empty chamber, safety off and you should be ready to repel borders, none of this loading a magazine and racking slides and pumps and charging handles. That removes one of your advantages, arguably the most important
3rd- you?ve hopefully trained with your choice and know how to manipulate it as needed. There?s no room for less lethal here, remove the threat worry about neighbors later, not saying you need a 50 BMG but over penetration kind of becomes useless to worry about if you miss what your aiming at anyway and if you hit what your aiming at the energy will dump and the round will stop fairly quick. Your adversary in tourney home has likely not trained with whatever they?re packing and have forfeited all rights to life and liberty once across the property line.
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I have to agree that " more power isn't always the answer. That power has to hit the target in the right spot.".
My wife and I both shoot in several CAS/SASS shoots/matches a year. We both are very confident in our ability to hit center of mass with our Coach Guns. Susan uses a 20Ga loaded with 2 3/4 #3 buckshot and I use a 12Ga loaded with 2 3/4 #1 Buckshot. We each shoot 600 to 800 #8 or #7 1/2 shot rounds a year in matches and at least 50 defense loads too.
We like to keep lever action 357 carbines handy, due to using them in matches and being confident in our ability to hit a target at defensive ranges
. I have a Beretta M9A1 with a Streamlight TLR-1 mounted in a bedside safe and the boss lady has her S&W M&P CORE 9mm with a red dot sight and Streamlight TLR1s on her side. I'm confident I could hit my target with my 357 Vaquero or 44/40 SAA, but, we both think it's a good idea to have a light on our defensive pistols.
My first reaction is to grab that shotgun, I know I can but 2 rounds where I need them very fast. I also know I can reload quickly if necessary.
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(this is where the guys that say racking a pump gun as loud as you can is a good deterrent...no, just hell no)
Agreed - it still surprises me to hear that "argument" being used...
I mean, could you see SWAT rolling up on a situation and all running around racking pump shotguns to scare the bad guys? LOL
Surprise is a powerful tactical advantage.
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(this is where the guys that say racking a pump gun as loud as you can is a good deterrent...no, just hell no)
Agreed - it still surprises me to hear that "argument" being used...
I mean, could you see SWAT rolling up on a situation and all running around racking pump shotguns to scare the bad guys? LOL
Surprise is a powerful tactical advantage.
HAHAHAHAHAHA I can imagine it but it?s a bunch of little smurfs in the finest black apparel 5.11 has to offer holding a bunch of 870?s and papa smurf is on top of the SWAT van with his megaphone ?KEEP AT IT BOYS I THINK WE JUST ABOUT GOT OUR POINT ACROSS THAT WE KNOW HOW TO RUN A PUMP SHOTGUN?
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Since this is about shotguns, did I miss the part where someone suggested taking their proposed home/self defense shells to the range with their shotgun and testing the pattern sizes at different ranges with different shot sizes?
I?ve done this so I know how my shotgun and my chosen loads will pattern in my house at various potential engagement distances. I will look up my photos and post them. Already posted on another forum so should be able to replicate the info.
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Since this is about shotguns, did I miss the part where someone suggested taking their proposed home/self defense shells to the range with their shotgun and testing the pattern sizes at different ranges with different shot sizes?
I?ve done this so I know how my shotgun and my chosen loads will pattern in my house at various potential engagement distances. I will look up my photos and post them. Already posted on another forum so should be able to replicate the info.
Everyone needs to do that. Far too many people believe a shotgun charge just spreads out and envelopes the target with shot with no regard to distance from the muzzle to the target or how much shot in in the charge/pattern.
I remember my dad talking about shooting the head off of squirrels that were too close to use a normal POA on. Like when you're sitting on a log, or up against a tree trunk, you hear something, slowly turn you head and a squirrel is 8 or 10 feet away. He had tested his Ithaca and new how far off the end of the nose on that squirrel to aim so that only a small part of the shot charge would hit the squirrel's head vs. blowing it to pieces or missing it (I was a well know close range squirrel "misser.") I never did get that figured out.
You're really not going to get a very wide pattern inside a house. So you've got to put that front sight on the target. Even with a shotgun, up close, it's "aim small, miss small."
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Has anybody mentioned the concussive effect of using a shotgun inside a house? For safe room use, at least you can have earpro on hand. For general HD, I'm still much more comfortable with a high capacity hand gun.
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Has anybody mentioned the concussive effect of using a shotgun inside a house? For safe room use, at least you can have earpro on hand. For general HD, I'm still much more comfortable with a high capacity hand gun.
Absolutely! I keep earpro in the bedroom for my wife and I for that very reason.
I shudder to think of the possible effect of firing any gun indoors but more so a shotgun and especially a rifle. The rifle is loud WITH plugs and active earpro! ;-)
I'm hoping the new year will bring me the suppressor I've been drooling over for some time now. (Soon, Omega 9K, soon...) A suppressed pistol is IMO an optimal first choice for general HD use.
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My HD shotgun is this Benelli SuperNova with 18.5" barrel, tube extension, and Walther light on a 45-degree mount. (FYI: Photos are hosted on PostImg.)
(https://s5.postimg.org/6gs6gcahj/IMG_2757_sm.jpg)
The distance from my bedroom door to the furthest line-of-sight outside entrance door is about 40' (say 14 yds), with a closer one at the kitchen that's around 1/2 that distance. So my line of sight is bedroom door -> kitchen passageway -> entrance door that's glass on top half (yeah not a fan).
(https://s5.postimg.org/ht4ry8ls7/Line-of-sight.jpg)
I basically have only purchased flight-control loads for HD, and a few slugs. Had an opportunity to go out and check the spread on these loads a couple months ago. You'll have to excuse my inconsistency in POA... This was free-standing, not bench-rest. Here are the 4 loads I tested:
- Hornady Varmint Express #4 (red)
- Hornady TAP 00 (red)
- Hornady TAP Reduced Recoil 00 (blue)
- Hornady Critical Defense 00 (black)
(https://s5.postimg.org/e9iu8bo6f/IMG_3203.jpg)
Tested them first at 10 yards:
(Note: 9-ring is about 5.5" across. You can cover all the holes made a 10 yards with your hand.)
- Hornady Varmint Express #4
(https://s5.postimg.org/ygwa0n13b/Shell_VE04_10_sm.jpg)
- Hornady TAP 00
(https://s5.postimg.org/g1bt39htz/Shell_TAP00_10_sm.jpg)
- Hornady TAP Reduced Recoil 00
(https://s5.postimg.org/e9iu8d66v/Shell_TAPRR00_10_sm.jpg)
- Hornady Critical Defense 00
(https://s5.postimg.org/lcqpnx6gn/Shell_CD00_10_sm.jpg)
Then at 20 yards:
- Hornady Varmint Express #4
(https://s5.postimg.org/3zgf93t5z/Shell_VE04_20_sm.jpg)
- Hornady TAP 00
(https://s5.postimg.org/gqulflfsn/Shell_TAP00_20_sm.jpg)
- Hornady TAP Reduced Recoil 00
(https://s5.postimg.org/g1bt38uon/Shell_TAPRR00_20_sm.jpg)
- Hornady Critical Defense 00
(https://s5.postimg.org/kagj5dfxj/Shell_CD00_20_sm.jpg)
I was amazed at the difference in grouping at 10 yards between the Hornady TAP 00 and the Reduced Recoil version. The RR kick was noticeably less, and clearly had a tighter grouping.
I also liked the spread on the Varmint Express at 20 yards. It isn't so outrageous that I would be afraid of damaging a bunch of crap in my kitchen as I shot through that passageway, and it would be less at the 14 yards between my bedroom door and the entrance door. Makes more holes, too!
Anyway, it was a fun test, and I'm not disappointed by any of the Hornady Versa-Tite loads for HD.
I also shot a couple samples of slugs. Amazing how clean the holes were in a smooth-bore shotgun at 30 yards.
(https://s5.postimg.org/nu2gv8g3b/IMG_3221.jpg)
(https://s5.postimg.org/vzkitcmbr/Shell_Slugs_30_sm.jpg)
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I live in the country, just my wife and I (kids are finally all grown un), so not really worried about over penetration or anything of that sort. My main home defense is a Mossberg 590A1 loaded with 00 Buck with slugs in the side carrier. It's loaded, ready to run...I don't play that "you get a warning of me racking the slide before we go hot"...I know you're not supposed to be there, you know you're not supposed to be there, you came anyway and are obviously a threat.
Now, before anyone goes all up in arms about "shotguns are crap for defense"...my go to weapon when doing high risk boardings in the Gulf War (we had that little embargo thing going on and people did try to get a lot of weapons, explosives, ammo, and other items through) and during drug ops was a Mossberg 590. I know how to move in tight spaces with it, know how to handle it, and am intimately familiar with it. Play all the videos of poorly trained people with birdshot missing (regardless of what the commentator says) from whatever internet guru is in vogue this month, in the hands of a trained person it's deadly and extremely effective...especially in close quarters...first hand experience, not I analyzed a video, or a friend told me, nor any internet speculation.
For those saying but the range is short. So is my house and driveway. There is no need for 300yrd capability when trying to drive someone out and on their way and I'm not going chasing after them, that's the job of the police. If it turns into a standoff, well you don't really have a good defensive plan if you haven't accounted for that and moved to retrieve an alternate weapon (SBR in my case).
For Earl, 2 words. Auditory exclusion. When the adrenaline is running high, you may not even register hearing the shot. Yes, your ears will be ringing afterwards, but it's a protection device our bodies do during high stress, high adrenaline situations. On average, a 12ga is about the same dB as a typical handgun (.45acp, .40s&w, 9mm), though less than magnums (.357, .41, .44) or short barrels (2-3in).
For M1A4ME, we see the same as your example (people wanting 3, 3.5, 10ga, etc because of the reasons you listed) all the time down here in Louisiana deer hunting. Someone gets the newest, biggest, baddest, most powerful, fastest shooting rifle to take down deer...when really, their deer walked because of poor shot placement. Then, when they shoot them with these new behemoth round, they wonder why the deer went 50yrds then died, not realizing they're outside the performance envelope of the round...which in our area tends to be way to close of range for the velocity to drop off enough for the bullet to perform, ending up with it acting like a FMJ and just zipping right through.
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Nice post, Mike - thanks!
Good point about performance envelope, too. :)
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Mike. +1 on the hearing issue (or lack of it) when the adrenalin is pumping through your blood vessels.
Grouse hunted for years with a 12 ga. pump (the M37) and never had an issue, even right after a shot, or two.
I've been lying prone on the firing line with M1 Garands and M1A's up and down the line on both sides of me. All wrapped up in my sling, magazine inserted, a round in the chamber, safety on, waiting of the "FIRE" command and concentrating on my NPOA exercise/technique and when the man shouts, "FIRE", I can hear this funny noise. I'm in my own little world, just me and the target, but there's this funny noise that suddenly distracts me. Then I hear it again - and I realize I've left my hearing protection hanging around my neck while the .30 caliber rifles are blasting away with 3 or 4 feet of me on either side. A quick drop the butt off my shoulder, grab the right side ear plug and put it in my right ear, grab the left side ear plug and put it in my left ear, get the rifle butt back in my shoulder pocket, get the NPOA thing taken care of, move the safety to FIRE and start putting holes in the target.
I did that two or three times that week. No pain. No buzzing/humming/ringing issues at all. Anywhere from 10 to 20 shots or more fired within 20/25 yds. of me. The human body is a funny thing.
Not that I'd want to do it on a regular basis, but I understand your point. I asked a former cop about it one time. A cop who'd been involved in several shooting incidents over his years of service in a large city police department. His answer about hearing damage when the gunfire started? "You know, now that you mention it, I don't ever remember my ears/hearing bothering me afterwards." It may not work that way for everyone, but it does for some folks.
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Let me add something about making that shot.
This has to do with grouse hunting, in the WV mountains where that grouse gets up quick and gets his hind parts behind some trees, over the spoil bank or above the cut (strip mine terms relating to the old abandoned/non-reclaimed strip mines dating back to the 40's and 50's of the previous century).
My dad was talking to me one day and he said, "Have you ever noticed how you can miss that first shot on a grouse, pump the shotgun, get back on him and drop him with the second shot before he gets something between you and him?" I told him that I'd done that several times over the years. The he said, "Well, think about this some. If you've got the time to knock him down with your second shot, why don't you take the time to make sure you get him with that first shot?"
Think about it. Taking the time to make sure it's a good shot is still quicker than missing the first shot and then hitting with the second shot. No matter how big the target is or how fast it's moving.
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M1A4ME- I?ve had similar experience with hearing protection, personally I am very prone to hearing loss and at 26 my hearing has been compared to my grandpa, I have tinnitus pretty bad and if I?m trying to sleep in a room completely silent it keeps me up at nigh, gotta have at least a fan running on low or something.
That being said I?ve got a couple friends who routinely go out and forget ears on and blast away a couple rounds with their pistols and rifles anyway, load up then head home, every year they pass a hearing test with no problems and no ringing or discomfort
I keep a set of Howard Leigh?s electronics by the bed for myself personally as the electronics give me an edge since they assist my hearing and protect it too, it makes me feel like I?ve got the edge when I can hear again and will always advocate training to don ear pro first. Even if it doesn?t seem like a gunshot hurts your hearing it will never help it and when it?s gone it?s gone. I keep a set on my ladies side of the bed too
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M1A4ME- I?ve had similar experience with hearing protection, personally I am very prone to hearing loss and at 26 my hearing has been compared to my grandpa, I have tinnitus pretty bad and if I?m trying to sleep in a room completely silent it keeps me up at nigh, gotta have at least a fan running on low or something.
That being said I?ve got a couple friends who routinely go out and forget ears on and blast away a couple rounds with their pistols and rifles anyway, load up then head home, every year they pass a hearing test with no problems and no ringing or discomfort
I keep a set of Howard Leigh?s electronics by the bed for myself personally as the electronics give me an edge since they assist my hearing and protect it too, it makes me feel like I?ve got the edge when I can hear again and will always advocate training to don ear pro first. Even if it doesn?t seem like a gunshot hurts your hearing it will never help it and when it?s gone it?s gone. I keep a set on my ladies side of the bed too
I like that idea about the electronic assist ear pro, but doesnt it come through in mono? Would that impact your spacial awareness in that you would have trouble knowing where a sound is coming from?
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I like that idea about the electronic assist ear pro, but doesnt it come through in mono? Would that impact your spacial awareness in that you would have trouble knowing where a sound is coming from?
If I?m not mistaken the Howard Leight active earpro is stereo. There are two mics, anyway.
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Maybe? I don?t really notice but the way my house is there?s only one direction to come from without going straight through a wall or window so I consider it a non issue, as someone said before if you stay static in your position they will likely come to you anyway so I would say hearing something and not being 100% sure we?re it came from is better than not hearing it at all. I.E. hearing footsteps and knowing someone in your house is on the move vs not hearing them at all. I also keep random pocket change at strategic locations (not in front of windows or visible areas from the outside, minimize the ?valuable? items as much as reasonably possible from outside view) with the idea that someone will think it?s easy pickings on their way through and scoop it up potentially giving away their position, then they win a Darwin Award
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I guess hearing may be sort of like eyesight when it comes to the benefit of having both sides working well at the same time.
As my dad got older he began to lose his hearing in his right ear (23 years in the Air Force working around jets didn't help any). He eventually quit hunting. He said he couldn't tell where something was at. Was the squirrel he could hear barking to the left, or to the right? The noise in the leaves, was it in front of him or behind him? He got really frustrated there and just finally quit because he didn't enjoy it anymore.
They say the same about being able to see with only one eye - no depth perception - hard to tell how far away something is from you.
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Regarding auditory exclusion, I can't train for it so I won't count on it. Even though I mentioned ear pro, my concern is more directed to disorientation from the concussive blast(shotgun). I've never fired a shotgun or handgun in a house so I don't know if there's a big difference. There's no doubt in my mind that for someone properly trained, a shotgun is undeniably effective. In the future, I hope to take Tom Givens' shotgun class. Thus far, my training has been focused on handguns as for my purpose, they seemed to be the most useful all around.
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Regarding auditory exclusion, I can't train for it so I won't count on it. Even though I mentioned ear pro, my concern is more directed to disorientation from the concussive blast(shotgun).
Nobody trains for auditory exclusion, it's a body's natural reaction...it will happen whether you have ear pro or not.
As far as concussive blast, unless you're planning on standing on the business end, it's not bad. There is enough air volume and space in a house for the wave to flow without over pressuring, like it would in a car with the windows rolled up.
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Regarding auditory exclusion, I can't train for it so I won't count on it. Even though I mentioned ear pro, my concern is more directed to disorientation from the concussive blast(shotgun).
Nobody trains for auditory exclusion, it's a body's natural reaction...it will happen whether you have ear pro or not.
As far as concussive blast, unless you're planning on standing on the business end, it's not bad. There is enough air volume and space in a house for the wave to flow without over pressuring, like it would in a car with the windows rolled up.
I didn't mean to suggest that it could be trained for. You've got the experience with shotguns in confined spaces, so your feedback is valuable. Regarding the wave/air volume, I've been on indoor ranges with people shooting shotguns and it was somewhat uncomfortable. I figured it would be more so in a more confined space. Interesting to hear otherwise.
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Regarding auditory exclusion, I can't train for it so I won't count on it. Even though I mentioned ear pro, my concern is more directed to disorientation from the concussive blast(shotgun).
Nobody trains for auditory exclusion, it's a body's natural reaction...it will happen whether you have ear pro or not.
As far as concussive blast, unless you're planning on standing on the business end, it's not bad. There is enough air volume and space in a house for the wave to flow without over pressuring, like it would in a car with the windows rolled up.
I didn't mean to suggest that it could be trained for. You've got the experience with shotguns in confined spaces, so your feedback is valuable. Regarding the wave/air volume, I've been on indoor ranges with people shooting shotguns and it was somewhat uncomfortable. I figured it would be more so in a more confined space. Interesting to hear otherwise.
I've never shot a shotgun in a non ventilated enclosed space. Is it a situation where you will quickly lose the ability to see due to smoke? I'd bet just like when using your high beams in the road a high lumen weapon light may be mitigated/nullified due to drywall dust and smoke, or am I blowing smoke?
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I guess hearing may be sort of like eyesight when it comes to the benefit of having both sides working well at the same time.
As my dad got older he began to lose his hearing in his right ear (23 years in the Air Force working around jets didn't help any). He eventually quit hunting. He said he couldn't tell where something was at. Was the squirrel he could hear barking to the left, or to the right? The noise in the leaves, was it in front of him or behind him? He got really frustrated there and just finally quit because he didn't enjoy it anymore.
They say the same about being able to see with only one eye - no depth perception - hard to tell how far away something is from you.
I'm paranoid about a multiple attacker scenario where being able to separate noises and their sources would be beneficial.
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Regarding the wave/air volume, I've been on indoor ranges with people shooting shotguns and it was somewhat uncomfortable. I figured it would be more so in a more confined space. Interesting to hear otherwise.
We must have a difference of opinion in what is uncomfortable. We have an indoor range nearby, nothing special, it's two 25yrd ranges separated by cinder block walls and swinging doors (no sealing surfaces). I don't really notice that much of a concussive force inside there when I've been an people were shooting shotguns. Did notice, but wasn't bothered by a guy doing a prelim sight in on his .300WinMag Winchester. My house has a much greater volume of air in it than that range, with multiple avenues for the air to flow and not reverb...however, if you were to step into our guest bath and shut the door I can see it becoming quite uncomfortable (the room is approx 6x12ft). While you can't train for it, you will probably not even notice it when the adrenaline is flowing. During training, I'd fired into a room smaller than our bathroom in rapid succession and never really noticed it. Don't overthink it, the only way you're going to notice in an emergency situation is if you have some sort of serious inner ear issues.
One of the really serious issues I'll cover in my response to zaxXxon, who brought up a really good point.
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I've never shot a shotgun in a non ventilated enclosed space. Is it a situation where you will quickly lose the ability to see due to smoke? I'd bet just like when using your high beams in the road a high lumen weapon light may be mitigated/nullified due to drywall dust and smoke, or am I blowing smoke?
This is highly dependent on your ammo and the amount of rounds expended, but yes it can be an issue. If running field loads and shooting quickly, you're going to end up with a massive cloud. If you've got a weapon light on, then you'll be practically blind (reflection off the smoke) especially if it's one of the high lumen units.
Your house is ventilated, but not as good as an indoor range. I've "smoked out" my lane when working on developing a competition load using lead bullets (before finding Bayou Bullets). That was with a SP01 shooting 9mm and with a DW PM7 shooting .45acp. So, if you've got dirty loads in 12ga, it's going to be worse faster because you don't have forced ventilation in a house like at an indoor range.
With that said, it's nice seeing people patterning their loads for defensive weapons, but there are 2 other considerations that need to be made. The first is how dirty it is, because smoke plumes are bad indoors and in an intense, high rate of fire situation, it can effectively blind you. The second is muzzle flash, which will temporarily blind you in low light situations. So, when you're doing assessments, look for a good patterning, clean round, with a clean burning, low flash powder. Before anyone asks, Winchester Ranger 2 3/4in 00 Buck is one example. If you look at a reduced recoil load, they tend to fit the bill for low flash, but you still need to check for smoke and accuracy out of your weapon. Sadly, if anyone has a Mossberg Shockwave, don't think you're going to make it...the barrel is short, so unburnt powder and decreased accuracy...but it's a "get off me" and/or breacher style shotgun anyway.
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Regarding the wave/air volume, I've been on indoor ranges with people shooting shotguns and it was somewhat uncomfortable. I figured it would be more so in a more confined space. Interesting to hear otherwise.
We must have a difference of opinion in what is uncomfortable. We have an indoor range nearby, nothing special, it's two 25yrd ranges separated by cinder block walls and swinging doors (no sealing surfaces). I don't really notice that much of a concussive force inside there when I've been an people were shooting shotguns. Did notice, but wasn't bothered by a guy doing a prelim sight in on his .300WinMag Winchester.
I don't mind shotguns at the indoor range but, man, I hate when people bring in ARs... it goes past being loud and borders on being plain uncomfortable.
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I don't mind shotguns at the indoor range but, man, I hate when people bring in ARs... it goes past being loud and borders on being plain uncomfortable.
You don't even want to be directly next to me when I fire my 10.5in barrel AR. I constantly remind people that I shoot with to move behind me 2 paces and stay at least 2 paces to either side of me when I fire it. Standing directly even with me, even 3-5ft between us), it will make you feel like someone slapped you in the face and you'll feel it deep in your chest. It just has a flash hider, if I put a compensator on it that would be VERY uncomfortable for those around. I, however, never even notice it because I'm always behind the controls. ;)
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I've never shot a shotgun in a non ventilated enclosed space. Is it a situation where you will quickly lose the ability to see due to smoke? I'd bet just like when using your high beams in the road a high lumen weapon light may be mitigated/nullified due to drywall dust and smoke, or am I blowing smoke?
This is highly dependent on your ammo and the amount of rounds expended, but yes it can be an issue. If running field loads and shooting quickly, you're going to end up with a massive cloud. If you've got a weapon light on, then you'll be practically blind (reflection off the smoke) especially if it's one of the high lumen units.
Your house is ventilated, but not as good as an indoor range. I've "smoked out" my lane when working on developing a competition load using lead bullets (before finding Bayou Bullets). That was with a SP01 shooting 9mm and with a DW PM7 shooting .45acp. So, if you've got dirty loads in 12ga, it's going to be worse faster because you don't have forced ventilation in a house like at an indoor range.
With that said, it's nice seeing people patterning their loads for defensive weapons, but there are 2 other considerations that need to be made. The first is how dirty it is, because smoke plumes are bad indoors and in an intense, high rate of fire situation, it can effectively blind you. The second is muzzle flash, which will temporarily blind you in low light situations. So, when you're doing assessments, look for a good patterning, clean round, with a clean burning, low flash powder. Before anyone asks, Winchester Ranger 2 3/4in 00 Buck is one example. If you look at a reduced recoil load, they tend to fit the bill for low flash, but you still need to check for smoke and accuracy out of your weapon. Sadly, if anyone has a Mossberg Shockwave, don't think you're going to make it...the barrel is short, so unburnt powder and decreased accuracy...but it's a "get off me" and/or breacher style shotgun anyway.
Solid info, thanks!
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M1A4ME: The point your Dad taught you is something that everyone needs to learn. The grouse were good teachers--if you want to make the first shot--you need to stop shooting before you aim well. You will hit quicker and kill more in the long run if you discipline yourself to not get in a hurry about getting off that first shot. Rather, concentrate on the aim first and shoot only when you know that you are dead-on with the aim/lead. This makes the difference between 1-shot kills and just expending a bunch of ammo, throwing a lot of lead and not hitting anything.
This is true with shotguns, rifles and pistols. And it is true in every situation where you have only a little time to hit your target. Slow down, concentrate your aim and make the first shot count. Better to take the time to hit on the first shot than to miss and then have less time to make the second shot. Hunting is great for teaching how to shoot in high-stress situations.
It taught me the exact lesson your Dad talked to you about; realizing that you have plenty of time to make the first shot without rushing it and making yourself miss. Quail, rabbits verify and confirm what your Dad said.
Also good point about close shots witha shotgun. Blown many a squirrel's and rabbit's head right off. On running rabbit, I wait until he's at least 20 yards away before I even think about pulling the trigger. (I eat the rabbits) So, if there's no thicket nearby, I may let him run 30 yards before I roll him, less shot in him that way, and because there is more spread, better chance to hit him.
I patterned my Browning Auto-5 16 gauge with #1 Buckshot at 30 yards. So I know inside my house, that is one angry swarm of #1 Buckshot that is going to impact the chest (or head) of an intruder. All of the pellets will hit him at that distance. Way more certainly lethal than any handgun--because it penetrates and distrupts a larger area than a .45 ACP. It is simply devastating at close range. And your point about the Turkey hunter who couldn't kill a turkey with 3" 20 GA--well, he can't kill one with a 10 Gauge either. Funny thing about Gobblers is that you do have to hit the head/neck area to kill them! Otherwise, if you hit the body, they may run off and die later.
Have killed deer with Buckshot (12 gauge) and rifled slugs with this Auto-5 16 gauge; so absolutely no doubt about the POI, the spread or the total lethality of this gun at Home Defense ranges.
Still don't comprehend what was said about shotguns being a poor choice for home defense (especially if you remain still and let the intruder come to you). Only conclusion I can draw is that the poster doesn't know much about shotguns and has no experience hunting with shotguns on larger game. I've killed a couple of coyotes with Turkey loads--one #4 lead from 16 gauge and one #5 Hevi-Shot from Benelli 12 Gauge. Hevi-Shot hits like lightning at 45 yards--no matter what you are shooting at--it is absa-freakin'-lutely dead in a fraction of a second. You can almost see its soul blowing out the exit-side!
Let me add something about making that shot.
This has to do with grouse hunting, in the WV mountains where that grouse gets up quick and gets his hind parts behind some trees, over the spoil bank or above the cut (strip mine terms relating to the old abandoned/non-reclaimed strip mines dating back to the 40's and 50's of the previous century).
My dad was talking to me one day and he said, "Have you ever noticed how you can miss that first shot on a grouse, pump the shotgun, get back on him and drop him with the second shot before he gets something between you and him?" I told him that I'd done that several times over the years. The he said, "Well, think about this some. If you've got the time to knock him down with your second shot, why don't you take the time to make sure you get him with that first shot?"
Think about it. Taking the time to make sure it's a good shot is still quicker than missing the first shot and then hitting with the second shot. No matter how big the target is or how fast it's moving.
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I don't want to argue what's better for HD; Pistol or Shotgun or AR. If the SHTF and I need to defend my home and family; I'll have both a short shotgun and a pistol.
A few facts to consider, some have already been mentioned by others:
*One round of 00 Buck, even low-recoil, is equivalent to 9 rounds of 32 caliber pistol shots at 1200fps+. 3-4 well placed shells are like 2 full pistol magazine loads of ammo.
*At HD range, even an open (no) choke 00 doesn't spread more than 6-12" diameter, so you've got to aim.
*There are a number of specialized defensive shells like Federal's 00 LE132 that act like a slug up to 10 yards, then the cup shaped plastic shot retainer falls back and the shot spreads and dissipates energy, designed to reduce collateral damage.
*A 1" diameter hole bleeds out quickly.
A Mossberg 590 18.5 barrel with a Talon wrapped Shockwave grip, and a Streamlight TLR-4 laser/light for accurate shots, IMHO is a formidable HD tactical weapon.
Just Say'in.
(https://i.imgur.com/OYKrtqu.jpg?1)
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My HD shotgun is this Benelli SuperNova with 18.5" barrel, tube extension, and Walther light on a 45-degree mount.
(https://s5.postimg.org/6gs6gcahj/IMG_2757_sm.jpg)
Zanderman,
I have that exact gun for home defense. I went to the LGS looking for a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 590 but the salesman showed me the SuperNova, which I hadn't considered before. I like the pistol grip because my wrists have limited range of motion and that grip is much more comfortable to use than the usual grip on a shotgun. I also like the location of the safety and several other features of that gun over the other two.
I keep #1 buck loaded in it because it has adequate penetration and gives more combined cross-section area than 0 or 00:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm)
I have some slugs on the side saddle in the unlikely event I might want to switch from #1 to slug. The SuperNova has a Chamber Empty button that lets you empty the chamber and hand load a shell without emptying the magazine tube.
I don't have a sling on my gun. I've read it can get caught on door knobs, furniture, etc in a close-quarter situation and mess you up.