The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: painter on February 20, 2018, 09:02:45 PM
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I know we don't discuss this much here, but I figured I'd add some comments for comic relief, if nothing else.
Shotshell is different. The recipe must be closely adhered to. The wad choices, hull variations, primers, powders...it's mind numbing.
You won't save money unless you load hunting rounds, or spreaders, or the like. At $5 a box it's just too cheap. You, of course can load a higher quality round if you think that's what you need.
I got into it because I have an old Charles Daly/ Miroku with fixed chokes and a non-selectable trigger that's choked full over modified and I want to shoot it at 5 stand, and don't want to modify the barrels. I'm loading spreaders. You can buy them for $14 a box, plus freight. I can load them for $7 using scrounged hulls.
Anyway, after buying a used PW 375C, wads and all the components from Graf's and BPI, I have a few observations that you might find humorous after loading my first few test shells.
Always, when verifying powder throws, pour the powder back into the powder hopper, not the shot hopper...yes, you can suck the powder off the top with a shop vac. Luckily I didn't try the reverse.
Always put powder in the hull before you insert the wad. It won't work otherwise.
Most importantly, after you punch out a primer always install a fresh one before you put powder in the hull. It gets pretty messy otherwise.
I'll likely find new ways to screw it up as I go. :P
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I can't wait until you chrono these. O0
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Like!
I debated reloading my expensive 16 gage shot shells for my old Browning Sweet Sixteen, but I don't shoot it enough to join the fun.
I use it for mano-o-mano steel shoots at a local match that does one a few times a year.
Keep us posted on your results. Intetesting.
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I loaded my first 12 ga on the hardwood floor in my bedroom, with a LEE kit when I was twelve. HOW I never hurt myself, and WHY my Dad allowed it...I will never know. You seated primers with a mallet or hammer, I quickly found that one of my Dad's framing hammers was MORE than required. Exploded a primer on my floor and it left a big divot. Moved to a much lighter rubber mallet after that. HOW I got my start on tinitus as a 12 year old.
I remember I got a pound of red dot, 250 fiber wads, a few hundred WW primers and 25 pounds of #6's from Art's Sport Shop for WAY less than a ten dollar bill.
Since then I couldn't imagine the tens of thousands I have loaded. using a Spolar now, but still have that old LEE someplace.
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I can't wait until you chrono these. O0
That would be interesting. ;D
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Using a Spolar now, but still have that old LEE someplace.
Spolar ? My, we have moved up in the world. That's a long way from burning holes in the floor !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zY_153nFac
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Here's a video my son and I did. At the time there were no videos on the P-W 375 anywhere. In fact, this video was used on the P-W web page for several months until they finally made their own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLMWkeXVO5Y
If you look in the background about 2:15 into the video you can see my Dillon 550.
Fun stuff this shotshell reloading. ;)
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I can't count the rounds of shotgun ammunition I've loaded over the years. For some reason, it's the one loaded round I don't keep a record of, and that's probably because it's a love/hate relationship. We go through many thousands of rounds of a special load for shooting steel targets, and a like load in factory ammunition is the Winchester AA Lite, which is expensive.
I do my loading with a MEC 9000GE, which is run by an electric motor. You put the hull on the carrier, add a wad and push the two buttons at the same time and a loaded round is ejected out the back. Simple, right? Except for when the hull wobbles, and the decapping rod goes through the side of the hull, or the wad fingers catch the side of the hull and collapse it. That causes shot to go everywhere. Oh, and sometimes the new primer doesn't land correctly and gets mashed when seating, or lands upside down, both of which cause powder to spill and mess up the whole procedure.
Whenever something goes wrong, be sure to check all the stations to make sure what was supposed to happen at each one actually happened. Bloopers are embarrassing........
No matter how careful you are when loading shotgun shells, shot and powder are going to eventually end up where you don't want them. It's a rule. I mostly load #8 and 7 1/2 shot, and it's just the right size to get down into the carrier and cause problems. Small forceps work well for picking them out of where your fingers can't reach... I've yet to find a way to keep shot off the floor, too. I didn't know lead shot was magnetic, and that concrete was a lead magnet.............
I dread loading shotgun shells, which reminds me that I've got to load more, since our stock is down to about 10 boxes, which won't last long. I normally load in batches of 3,000 rounds, mainly because I consider it a chore, rather than a labor of love like reloading metallic cartridges, so once I start, I get enough done that I won't have to do it again for awhile.
The other thing about shotgun loading is the amount of room the components take up. Shotgun hulls are bulky, and a case of 5,000 wads takes up a lot of room. Bags of shot are heavy, and getting more expensive all the time. I got lucky and bought a ton of shot a couple of years ago for $23.00 a bag, and I've still got about 500 pounds of it left. When that's gone, I don't know what I'll do, since I'm not about to pay what they want for shot in the retail outlets, which was $40 to $50 a bag the last time I looked.
Did I mention I don't really like loading shotgun shells? In case I didn't say it, I DON'T LIKE LOADING SHOTGUN SHELLS!!
Hope this helps.
Fred
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My dad bought a Mec 600 Jr. back in 1972 when we lived in IL. Over the years we killed squirrels, rabbits (cotton tails, jacks and snowshoes), sharptail grouse, ring necks, ducks (just ducks, I never did learn all the different types), quail (bob whites and scaled quail), turkeys, a few doves (not sure how you develop a taste for those), crows, a few bobcats, a few foxes, and even a few feral cats back in the mountains.
That 600 Jr. is still bolted to a bench in what was my grandpa's bedroom in the house they lived in up in the WV mountains. You can open the window in the summer and hear the creek chuckling over/between the rocks as it carries water down to Meadow River, that dumps into the Gauley River, that dumps into the Kanawha River that dumps into the Ohio River that dumps into the Mississippi River that dumps into the Gulf of Mexico.
That water goes a long way after it used to help us get to sleep on warm summer nights.
Memories. I'm lucky to have so many good ones.
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My dad bought a Mec 600 Jr. back in 1972 when we lived in IL. Over the years we killed squirrels, rabbits (cotton tails, jacks and snowshoes), sharptail grouse, ring necks, ducks (just ducks, I never did learn all the different types), quail (bob whites and scaled quail), turkeys, a few doves (not sure how you develop a taste for those), crows, a few bobcats, a few foxes, and even a few feral cats back in the mountains.
That 600 Jr. is still bolted to a bench in what was my grandpa's bedroom in the house they lived in up in the WV mountains. You can open the window in the summer and hear the creek chuckling over/between the rocks as it carries water down to Meadow River, that dumps into the Gauley River, that dumps into the Kanawha River that dumps into the Ohio River that dumps into the Mississippi River that dumps into the Gulf of Mexico.
That water goes a long way after it used to help us get to sleep on warm summer nights.
Memories. I'm lucky to have so many good ones.
:)
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I think Fred is right, not for me!
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30 years ago i did 10 boxes a week for our trap team. Did that for 4 years and finally packed it all up and started buying shells. Should have done a little price checking b4 letting all my stuff go way too cheap. Now have 4 loaders and none are for shotgun.
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Let me share some things dad figured out over the years.
When he started reloading he bought the "big" shot cups and was loading 1&1/4 to 1&1/2 oz. shot loads. At some point, he went to lighter shot loads. Not lighter powder loads, lighter shot loads. The last few years, he was loading 1&1/8 oz. shot loads. He'd found that the lighter loads moved faster and less lead was needed on those fast moving grouse or high flying turkeys (more on that in a minute). There was a couple years there, when all four of us were getting in a lot of grouse hunting, that we killed over a 100 grouse a year hunting in the woods/strip mines around home.
Another thing he did was move away from #6 shot to #7&1/2's. I don't remember the pellet count per oz. but it's a really big difference when you go to the smaller shot. He killed everything with the 7&1/2's. Squirrels, grouse, turkeys, foxes and bobcats. I've seen him shoot/knock down turkeys at distances I'd never even shoot. Just looked to be "too far" to me but that turkey would fall out of the sky when his M37 went off.
Ever "pass shoot" turkeys? We did. The dogs could sent turkeys 100's of yards up the side of the mountain from the old trail/strip mine/road we'd be hunting and they'd beeline up the side of the mountain. You knew it was turkeys from the way they left and headed up hill. We'd spread out with 50 to 75 yds. between us along the road/strip mine and wait. At some point (pretty often) the dogs would force the turkeys off the ground and into the air. Turkeys don't fly easy, so they'd beat there way through the tree limbs to the open sky and then turn downhill and spread their wings out to coast down the mountainside above the tree tops. They'd be pretty high up when the came over the road and we shot (I never did hit one like that, even when I felt it was close enough to shoot at) and moving fast, too. The ones that made it past dad and my brother would stay way up as they cross the creek/valley below us and coast part of the way up the opposite mountain side before looking for an open area in the trees to drop down through to the ground. They'd be flapping their wings like crazy then, trying to clear the limbs on their way down.
Dad knocked down two turkeys at just over 85 yds. one day with a 16 ga. loaded with 7&1/2's (don't know what the shot load weight was on those). He was squirrel hunting and the turkeys decided to cross the old road out in front of him. He shot, ran up and got the turkeys, then paced back down the road to pick up his empty (yeah, two with one shot - they'd been crossing 1 and a time and he got ready for one to cross when two decided to make that crossing).
I agree, these days you can get the "field loads" cheaper than you can reload them. I remember dad buying a few boxes and then telling me not to waste my money. He said he got tired of having to shoot some squirrels twice and went back to hunting with his own reloads.
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I'm a clay shooter. A couple hundred rounds a week. I'd like to do some live bird hunting, but I don't have anyone to go with, and I don't have a dog.
Factory ammo can be had for $5 a box delivered to my door. It's plenty good for 5 stand, or trap, and it isn't worth cranking handles for that price...I'd lose.
As I said in my OP, I have an older gun that I don't want to modify that I want to shoot, and I can't afford $14/box plus shipping. I can swing the $7 ish that building my own costs, and I get to hang out in my shop. I might even load up some 6.5x55, some .223, or some 9mm while I'm out there.
I like all the stories. Keep'em coming.
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If you want to save big money get some reclaimed shot and mix that with new stuff. If you're loading Remington hulls, then you can find recipes for using Winchester primers.
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Shot is definitely the biggest expense.
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Shot is definitely the biggest expense.
And transporting shot is the second biggest !
Some gun clubs buy clays from a vendor that also sells shot and other reloading supplies. At least at my club, that vendor will place these reloading items on the truck when they deliver clays. That means you get free transport and no HazMat.
Remember HazMat is not a DOT requirement, but an invention of the very few shippers who will move combustibles. A surcharge is really all it is.
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I have a bag of shot I need rid of as well as the wheel weights. I seem to recall it is #6 but I would haveto verify. I wonder if it would go in a flat rate box?
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Retailers routinely ship two bags of shot in flat rate boxes from the USPS. It has to be double boxed, at the minimum, since the weight breaks the cardboard down and you loose your load. The Post Office allows up to 70 pounds in a flat rate box.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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Just don't spill the shot on the floor.
For a real challenge, get into loading steel shot.
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So...I know I said I wasn't going to load regular target rounds...but I changed my mind. ;D I've taken a liking to light target loads, so I can load those and get exactly what I want. Buying components on sale, and through group buys, will save me about $1 a box for 3/4 oz loads...a little less for heavier loads in 12 gauge.
I saw a used PW800 Plus with tooling for 4 gauges, and a PW hydraulic drive unit for a price I couldn't resist, so off to Burlington, VT I went. The gent lives right next to the ANG base, and when they get the F-35 next year the base will offer a buyout, and he plans on taking it. He has another of these machines with an electric drive. He's just downsizing in preparation for the move. The seller threw in a 55 gallon drum of once fired Win hulls to boot. Glad I took my truck.
A couple of observations. It's very easy to screw up and have powder, and shot, everywhere. PW uses a shot and powder drain system rather than the MEC system of tipping the bottles. It's easy to move the lever the wrong way, and if the handle is up...watch out. I've spilled more shot and powder than in all of my metallic reloading.
Like Fred mentioned, sometimes things just happen, like the other day when I was loading 3/4 oz 20 gauge. I put a wad in the carrier, just like I'm supposed to, and continued to pull the handle, when all of a sudden shot is spilling everywhere. The wad ram pulled the wad back up or didn't seat it all the way, for some reason, and there wasn't room for the volume of shot. At least the seller gave me the good advice that when something goes wrong...stop...shut off the shot and powder...and then clear the machine. It's pretty easy to get things back moving again. I'll load a bunch more shells manually, and set up for 12 gauge to make any necessary adjustments, before I hook up the hydro drive.
I'll keep the 375C. It's still easier to load spreaders on the single stage.
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Just don't spill the shot on the floor.
For a real challenge, get into loading steel shot.
At least it's easier to pick up once you spill it O0
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I'm going to invent a lead magnet and get rich. :P
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I only got into shotshell reloading because I wanted 7/8oz loads for my 12ga. But back then I was buying 25# bags of new shot for $37, delivered. Now the cheapest is $50, and for that I have to drive to Gainesvllie, which is about 30 minutes away.
I can now buy flats (250 rounds) of 12ga 1oz for $50. My days of loading shotshells might be over.
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I only got into shotshell reloading because I wanted 7/8oz loads for my 12ga. But back then I was buying 25# bags of new shot for $37, delivered. Now the cheapest is $50, and for that I have to drive to Gainesvllie, which is about 30 minutes away.
I can now buy flats (250 rounds) of 12ga 1oz for $50. My days of loading shotshells might be over.
I just ordered 200# of #8 at ~ $35/25lbs (exact price to be determined). Last order was $38. There's no huge savings in reloading target loads, but you do maintain control over quality.
I'm going to play with 3/4 oz 12 gauge loads for 5 stand, and use 1 oz for trap. Lord knows I have plenty of powder for each weight. :P
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Some random thoughts on loading shotshells. I apologize if some of these have been covered extensively before...
1) Join a trap/skeet range or shotgun club and get in on group buys for shot. The Izaak Walton League here arranges group buys and members take turns driving to MO to pick them up. Works for primers, too.
2) I've always loaded shotshells in the garage. You will get tired of vacuuming up shot otherwise. (It's REALLY loud.)
3) As several others mentioned, it's about assembling published loads. It's not as interesting as experimenting with rifle and pistol handloads.
4) Reloading for 12 ga may be a break even proposition for most folks. However, I have some IC and modified 12 ga pumps, and loading my own appealed to me more than having an old Ithaca reamed for adjustable chokes.
5) If you shoot 10, 16, or 20, it's definitely worth it, if only to develop the potential of your gun(s). Most people that shoot 16 ga a lot load their own, because the factory loads are fairly mediocre and not readily available off the shelf.
6) In theory, reloaded shotshells do not have the shelf life of factory shotshells or even reloaded rifle/pistol cartridges. The powder tends to "migrate" around the wad over time. I've never heard of anyone suggesting a hard/fast rule on this (how long it takes to become a practical issue), but I've safely shot some pretty old 12 ga reloads. I've never gotten that far ahead on 16 and 20 ga.
I'll probably remember some more food for thought in the next few days. FWIW, I learned how to load shotshells long before my father taught me how to load brass cartridges. It will be very easy for someone who already loads for rifles/pistols.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that if you join a club, someone will inevitably give you a few thousand 12 ga hulls when they learn you are thinking about starting to load. I can't guarantee it, of course, but people have given me a lot of hulls over the years.
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Powder migration is not as much an issue if you use the correct wad. That's one thing I've discovered about published shotshell loads. Just because it's safe doesn't mean it's a good load.
Often times the stack height will be off causing poor crimps, or as you say, the wrong wad will be specified and the shell doesn't perform well in the long run. Wads designed for tapered hulls can cause migration of some powders in straight walled hulls. All the Vectan powders I'm using are flake type and migration is a non issue.
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Powder migration may also be related to paper hulls and paper wads. Powder migrating around a plastic wad that fits the inside of the plastic hull very tightly is something I simply can't imagine.
;)
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Updat...
$37.75/bag. CT sales tax and transportation included. I also split a case of primers with my buddy. I had just bought a case of Win 209's.
I got 8 bags. My shooting buddy that arranged the deal only wants to put 400# in his car and he also got 8 bags, or I would have bought more. We'll do it again. I'll drive next time and take my truck. ;)
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Scored some new lead pellets for $38/lb, and got a lead on some recycled for $25/lb. I'm back in business !
;)
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Nice! 8)
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Powder migration may also be related to paper hulls and paper wads. Powder migrating around a plastic wad that fits the inside of the plastic hull very tightly is something I simply can't imagine.
;)
It does happen with modern data/plastic wads/plastic hulls. The tell-tale is a "bulge" in either the powder/wad area or a "bulge" in the wad/shot area. Reloading shot shells is not as controllable as reloading brass cartridges. Generally, it's hard to miss a "bad" brass case with some experience and personal quality control. There are a LOT of visually identical Winchester AA hulls, for example. Some are very difficult or virtually impossible to reload (age, wear, external/internal soil, etc.). Some have different internal volumes because of different production lots, aging, and reloading (in this context, reloading and aging tends to increase volume, production lots can go either way). The powder migration I have seen is mostly caused by storing partial boxes of cast-off reloads in a garage, shed, etc.
Back in the '70s, my father used to alter his loads around the aging/use of his Federal 12 ga hulls. I've shot and reloaded a lot of Federal hulls, and I don't see a big difference in 12 ga, per se. I tend to use Winchester in 12, Federal in 16, and Remington in 20. To be fair, I think this is more of a case of what I have, rather than any sort of systematic testing.
EDIT: I realized I didn't make myself clear. I have seen powder migration caused by the occasional "bad" hull. Most powder migration I have seen seems to have been caused by bad storage, such as high heat/humidity. I don't believe that you can obtain a perfect components combination, because even with a perfect powder/wad/shot combination, you will get a "perfect" hull that decides to split, separate at the brass, etc. Like I have said with brass center-fire cartridges, you are probably best served by only dealing with your own once-fired cases/hulls.