The Original CZ Forum

GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: Grendel on August 06, 2005, 02:40:28 PM

Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on August 06, 2005, 02:40:28 PM
Well, I have managed to get my wife bitten with the shooting bug!
Although she was an MP and shot expert many years ago, she is now restricted in her hand and arm strength following surgery a few years back thus I need your recommendations for a 'lightweight' (or lighter) handgun for her (it need not necessarily be a CZ), so what would YOU buy? My 75B is a tad on the heavy side, so it will have to weigh less than that.

:D
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Walt-Sherrill on August 06, 2005, 03:33:47 PM
A Glock 17 or 19 would be just about ideal.  Especially if the arm and hand strength affect racking the slide.

Others will recommend various CZs with alloy frames.  I'll let them make their own arguments.

The Browning HP or various clones are worth consideration, too.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on August 06, 2005, 04:17:45 PM
"she is now restricted in her hand and arm strength following surgery "

  I am sorry to hear that , and I hope she recovers.  
The first and foremost step is for her to refamiliarize herself with shooting ,depending upon the degree of surgery she had.  I would very strongly recommend that she transition with a .22 target pistol first, move up to a .380ACP , and only then,  think about a military caliber defensive cartridge 9mm or above.  
  She needs to relearn how to shoot ,  I don't mean it in a bad way,  I think this is the ONLY way to become good again.
The process needs to be gradual and monitored.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: trozau on August 06, 2005, 04:56:07 PM
+1 on the Glock 19. Compact size is ideal for women. 8)
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on August 06, 2005, 05:21:41 PM
Thanks, King all good points and worthy of consideration...but as I am unfortunately not (contrary to the beliefs held by the bank and the CC companies) made of $$$....she's going to have to make do initially at least with one pistol, hence my plea for suggestions.


Ps. The surgery was a while back and she has made an excellent recovery, but this is pretty much as strong as she is realistically going to get.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on August 06, 2005, 05:23:57 PM
widge:
  Since budgetary concerns are at play, we need to compromise.  It has to be a Bertha 380 Thunder.  Enough stopping power ,but controlled recoil for a female who went through surgery on her hand.  Your thoughts?
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on August 06, 2005, 05:30:44 PM
That looks like a pretty nice pistol, I'll add it to my list of possibles
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Golddogman on August 06, 2005, 06:13:16 PM
First find out if she can retract the slide of any pistol you have in mind. Many women cannot, and though your wife is an experienced shooter, the surgery may have adversely affected her arm strength.

She may need a revolver.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on August 06, 2005, 06:39:33 PM
Good plan, I'm thinking a 'combat' pistol slide is too tough, but maybe not a 'compact' or 'striker' type
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: jwc007 on August 06, 2005, 07:10:56 PM
If she has trouble retracting a slide, remember to cock the pistol first before retracting the slide, if possible.  That way you are only compressing the recoil spring and not both the recoil spring AND the hammer/main spring.

If that is even still too much, there is always the revolver option.  A nice 3 inch Ruger SP101 in .38 Special or 3 inch Taurus 85 comes to mind.  You can often find Good Condition used Ruger Speed Sixes in Gun Shops or Gun Shows at bargain prices.  Got my 3 inch Ruger Speed Six, barely used, for $175 cash, incl tax.  A bargain if there ever was one!
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on August 07, 2005, 10:53:04 AM
widge:
  I have come up with a solution for you that will work.  jwc007 made a good point about revolvers.  I think you should get her the Taurus 905 in 9mm.   She can practice in both SA/DA.  and the ammo is cheap, so she can practice often.  The 9mm is also superior and cheaper to the .38 spec.
 You can have her practice with Winchester 9mm bulkpacks and then carry the +P loads concealed, but this the surest way for her to learn to shoot again without having the need to rack the slide back.  Your thoughts?  I love my Taurus 905.
Price is $325 NIB for a new one at your local gun shop.  They all have them and/or can special order it. The stellar speedloaders work magic!!  9mm practice range ammo is cheap,  no racking the slide,  SA practice, and +P when you need it.  Your thoughts!!??!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/stellar.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/905delta.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/more9mmtargets.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/147gr9mmHornadyJHP.jpg)
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Dos on August 07, 2005, 11:02:23 AM
I've often wondered how the moon clip thing works.   I was told on some revolvers there was a special  "tool" to mount the moon clip.   Don't they just drop over the cylinder spur and then load them as usual?   I've always been intrigued by a 9mm Pistol.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on August 07, 2005, 11:07:43 AM
My thoughts are 'whatever she's happy with, I'm happy with' :lol  
Thanks guys, I knew I'd get good input here.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on August 07, 2005, 11:12:45 AM
Dos, yes they are simply drop ins, and work well, and also they are compatible with S&W clips and vice versa.  For plinking I use the Sellier and Bellot and Winchester 115 grain full metal jackets and for carry I use the Hornady and Federal 147 grain JHPs.
  widge:
    Let us know what you decide, but for budgetary concerns and getting her to shoot well again,  I suggest the Taurus 905 and/or Bersa Thunder.  ,good luck.,  Also, Taurus makes an internal hammer DAO version as well.  I use Bianchi  pouches and carry spare clips.  They are simple drop ins. and the best part is that S&W clips are compatible and vice versa.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/stellar.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/lugerdos.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/fednines.bmp)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/H_905CHB.jpg)
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: BRASMAN on August 08, 2005, 02:12:20 AM
Glock 19 gets my vote.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on August 08, 2005, 04:00:17 AM
There is no bigger Glock fan than I am, but someone recovering from surgery may lack the strength to rack the slide back on a consistent basis, therefore the revolver recommendation by jwc above and my subsequent suggestion.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: CZ57 on August 08, 2005, 07:34:11 AM
Taking two very good recommendations and blending into one. A good used Ruger SP-101 in 9mm. I have the 3" model in .357 magnum and I shoot it with full power magnum loads. In 9mm, this is a lifetime gun and then some, so is my .357 for that matter and there is always that .38 Special capability if needed. The SP-101 9mm should have 10 moon clips provided originally from the factory and I bet you'll have a hard time finding one that has very much mileage on it. Autoloader, that's easy, CZ P-01. Best 9mm compact in existence and it is still extremely accurate despite the shorter barrel! You may also see a CZ 83 in .32 ACP. They currently have one at my local gunshop and the .380 version is considered one of the worlds best .380's either caliber holds 12 rounds in the mag! The lighter recoil spring in the .32 will make it slightly easier to charge a round.;)
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: BRASMAN on August 08, 2005, 11:47:24 AM
Sorry. I did not see that she could not use one arm. I just thought it was a little weaker. My 19 is not hard to work the slide on at all. In fact that is why my kids liked it the best when they were younger because it was so easy to rack the slide.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on August 08, 2005, 12:26:03 PM
I should add, she is not 'one armed' but simply due to extensive surgery a few years back, the strength in her right arm and hand (she is right handed) is not as it should be, or was. This means that she tires very quickly when holding a 'full size' pistol, and sometimes has difficulty in racking the slide for the first shot.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Golddogman on August 08, 2005, 01:37:24 PM
Slides on compact autos often have heavier recoil springs and thus are more difficult to retract than on full size models.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on August 08, 2005, 04:21:02 PM
"I should add, she is not 'one armed' but simply due to extensive surgery a few years back, the strength in her right arm and hand (she is right handed) "

  You know that it could be a blessing in disguise,  I went to Catholic school as a child and was left handed, the nuns beat me with a yard stick and made me write -right handed-, as a result I became ambidextrous and can now shoot with both hands due to being forced as a child to become ambidextrous,  if I am ever in a tactical situation where one hand is dissabled,  and I will be forced to use the other,  I will thank the nuns at Archbishop Ryan , if they are still alive. LOL
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: atblis on August 14, 2005, 10:29:46 AM
Sig Trailside perhaps?
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on August 14, 2005, 04:54:29 PM
A sig trailside is an excellent target pistol and would be an effective training tool to help someone shoot better, transition, or improve,  and alot of bullseye shooters use it for competition, but its not an effective primary defense weapon.  
  If you are going to get it in conjunction with a another weapon in a .380 or higher and then get a small .22 as a light backup, that would be ok, but for a primary defense cartridge, you need at least a .380 for her, but I do advocate the .22 target pistol as an exceptional learning tool and /or a competition pistol.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on August 14, 2005, 05:42:47 PM
Update

Looks like a used Glock 17, A Bersa Thunder 9 or possibly a Taurus Tracker 357 are front runners at the moment.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on August 14, 2005, 07:10:29 PM
All excellent choices.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on September 16, 2005, 04:52:16 PM
Ok, looks like we're going with the Bersa 9, anyone know a cheap source of mags for this?

The cheapest I've found is 45.99 :(
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on September 16, 2005, 06:46:23 PM
Bersa are excellent firearms but the mags are VERY expensive.  Get them for $35 here. (9mm is half way down)
   www.gungarage.com/bersa.htm (http://www.gungarage.com/bersa.htm)
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on September 16, 2005, 08:14:04 PM
Quote
Quote:
the mags are VERY expensive
You're not kidding! >:

Thanks for the link
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: BRASMAN on September 17, 2005, 12:53:05 AM
Yep, before I buy a pistol I always look and see how much the mags are and how easy they are to get. If the mags are expensive or hard to find  I skip it and get something else. Expensive to me is over $25 a mag and I like to keep it under $20.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on September 18, 2005, 06:23:14 AM
More I think about this, the less I like the idea of paying 1/5 the price of the gun for a mag. I think I'll try and persuade her to give the G17 another try.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: trozau on September 18, 2005, 07:03:24 AM
Yep. New G17 - 17 round mags as low as $16 and new G18 - 33 round mags as low as $25. :D    

edited to add - Have her try the G19. The G19 may be a little more size friendly for her. G19 - 15 round mags would be priced the same as G17 mags  and you can still use the G18 - 33 rounders. 8)
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on September 18, 2005, 12:18:33 PM
This is also why 1911's are so popular as well.  So many aftermarket parts and dozens of magazine manufacturers in the $20 range.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: BRASMAN on September 19, 2005, 12:42:11 AM
Yep thats exactly why I have 1911s. If you wait CDDN has Novak mags for like $15 and they are great mags. Parts availability and mag availability and price are top considerations.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on September 19, 2005, 03:57:09 AM
Not too mention that they are bleep accurate. :D
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on September 23, 2005, 07:46:40 PM
Well, I guess she got what she wanted....Bersa Thunder 9 (got an extra mag on order) and I picked up a Hi point carbine. :D  

Hopefully we'll try them out this weekend!

(if anyone has detail strip instructions for either, I'd be grateful)
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on September 23, 2005, 07:48:02 PM
Let us know how you like them.  You should love both and I suspect she will as well.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on September 23, 2005, 09:33:00 PM
Could you post the pics of your Hi point again?

Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on September 24, 2005, 06:07:39 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/mags.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/9mmbiglawmen.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/hipointimage1.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/sightcage.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/carbineonbed.jpg)
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: mbott on September 24, 2005, 06:47:55 AM
I'm still thinking about one of the .40 caliber HiPoints, but I really like the features and looks of the Ruger PC4 (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=4801&return=Y), too.

Decisions, decisions.

--
Mike
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on September 24, 2005, 12:20:21 PM
189 (Hi point) vs 623 (Ruger)
:rollin
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on September 24, 2005, 01:54:20 PM
Actually I really like both.  The Ruger 9mm and .40SW carbines are mag compatible with their P series centerfire pistols.  
  They are actually around $500
www.usagunsales.net/store/customer/product.php?productid=70272&cat=163&page=2 (http://www.usagunsales.net/store/customer/product.php?productid=70272&cat=163&page=2)

Hi Points are around $200, so the Ruger is 2.5 times the price., but both are very accurate.  I really enjoy carbines.  Other good ones include the Beretta CX4 Storm and the Marlin 9mm ranch carbine.  The Ruger is pictured below.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/wingedliberty/9mmrugerPC9.jpg)
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on September 24, 2005, 05:17:36 PM
Just stripped and cleaned the carbine (it was pretty grungy, esp. the barrel), springs and crap everywhere!
Managed to get everything back together and I guess I'll find out tomorrow whether all the bits are in the right place!
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on September 24, 2005, 05:46:09 PM
Let us know how it goes.  Do a full range report.  I am very much looking forward to it. I recommend you set the rear sight on the third notch from the base., it will work for both 25 and 50 yards.
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on September 26, 2005, 12:59:45 PM
Went to the range today

Hi point - fired 30 rounds of 115gr Wolf and WWB with excellent results from both 25 and 50 yards - groups of 2-3 inches and 5 inches respectively from a standing position. Trigger was a little 'spongy' but I think that will improve over time. Sights were easy to aquire and focus on. Had one FTF with the Wolf, but I put that down to operator error rather than the weapon. Almost no felt recoil at all and no need to adjust the sights until I can bench fire it. My only gripe: the bolt does not lock back on the last round, which is a pain.
A bargain for the $$$

Bersa - fired 50 rounds of Wolf and WWB 115gr, no FTEs or FTFs at all. good 2 inch groups at 7 yards, and slightly larger at 10, looked as though I had fired a shotgun at the target from 15 yards, but I'm not surprised as the bore axis is so short. Again, very light recoil and the sights are clear enough to aquire nicely. Not very 'southpaw' friendly as the trigger bar runs outside the frame just where my thumbs rest so I had to adjust my grip. No problem for a righty tho. I believe my wife will enjoy shooting this weapon and another bargain for the money.

Ps. Note to self do not over lube the Bersa as it gets everywhere!
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on September 26, 2005, 06:53:05 PM
I am very happy that my recommendations worked well for you.  It just goes to show that firearms do not necessarily have to be expensive to be effective.  the HP carbine and the Bersa Thunder are excellent examples.  
  Also, as far as the bolt not locking on the last round, this is the first I am hearing of it.  ,but it may be just part of the break in period.  I am glad you like both and your wife will also.  Combined $400 , you got yourself a deal.  
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: Grendel on September 26, 2005, 07:11:26 PM
As I understand it, the bolt is not designed to lock back on the last round, but I may be wrong about that. I read a review that mentions this here (http://www.aboutguns.net/reviews/trescaballeros.html) Like I said, a small gripe. (actually, nearer 5 big ones, but still a good deal I think)
Title: Recommendations needed! ** Updated w/range report**
Post by: KingPolymer-III on September 26, 2005, 07:24:20 PM
Interesting link.  Very interesting and informing.  Thanks.