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GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Wobbly on March 21, 2018, 04:52:28 PM

Title: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 21, 2018, 04:52:28 PM
DESCRIPTION
This thread is concerning testing of the "IDP#8" lead RN bullet from Missouri Bullet Co (MBC). This is a 135gr bullet designed and intended for caliber 38 Super, but it works wonderfully in 9mm, and the ogive shape is such that it fits the CZ chamber and barrel without serious issues. This bullet is sized to a diameter of 0.357" which helps insure a good tight fit.

Links: Missouri Bullet Co IDP#8 Hi-Tek (http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=334&category=5&secondary=26&keywords=) and Bulk IDP#8 Bullets (http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=478)

There is a great deal of interest in heavy bullets, but use of 147gr bullets in CZ pistols often ends in failure due to the short leade of the CZ chamber. This 135gr bullet represents a way to run heavy bullets in a CZ without the guess work. Loads can be easily calculated because 135gr is exactly half-way between 124gr and 147gr. So shooters can easily calculate a safe Starting Load using some basic math.

This bullet is available from MBC with and without the Hi-Tek coating. The coated version was selected for this test, which is highly preferable to the majority of our forum's shooters. The red Hi-Tek coating reduces a lot of smoke and barrel leading normally associated with shooting lead bullets.

(https://i.imgur.com/2sk7eyv.jpg)

Also see these threads:
* http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=87460.0
* http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95990.0


TESTING

Caliber:       9x19 Luger
Bullets:       MBC 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek coated LRN
Diameter:   0.357"
Brass:         RWS
Powder:      Win 231 / Hodgdon HP-38
Max Velocity:  1075fps (calculated)
Primer:       Winchester WSF
OAL:          1.130"
Pistol:        SP-01 Tac
Qty:           10 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:    50F and highly overcast
Chrono:      ProChrono

Load      Avg Vel           SD
3.5gr          897              15
3.6             920              11
3.7             934              21
3.8             949              19
3.9             974              13
4.0           1005                7
4.1           1026                4
4.2           1037                7
4.3           1057                7

NOTES
- Burned remarkably clean, even at 3.5gr
- Attribute the low SD numbers to the powder and the brass
- Recommend 4.1-4.2gr for general plinking
- No smoke noted
- Calculated Max Velocity seems to be spot on. Might be able to get in 4.4gr as Max Load.

 ;)
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: IDescribe on March 21, 2018, 07:15:39 PM
Thanks for the data, sir.  One additional note:

NOTES

Oversized at .357. ;)


Wobbly, how was accuracy?
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 21, 2018, 09:41:50 PM
Wasn't shooting at a target, but rather a 6" steel target hung above and behind the chrono. Accuracy improved when the SD's dropped at 4.0gr and above.
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 21, 2018, 10:05:10 PM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k0iaVxKmPs1evSSSZ4FKWet6dvV7BcRl1oBu13qvIA7rie4q7UtwCa349Mze6XUs7MpfloNDPJUE9AgAQRg-Iov-fnBlkL4xOFmjn0Zv_xs3R1xwk3hiQ9LyKTjpDE2RwVm_LgvntcioT_O_g1uVYuOSEm6sDdgAcir5-aBHn8i6nGhKm5yHrJpl1LbpzJNO0S6eNbfu7ZlzO7ZKUuA-kiMjmf_DOrL3SsoomTLGWxMN-IW3dtWT_aDgAR64wJUbrIG4Q2Zwofo4Anf1K0oQCncnIa35L4MJRSL5N23OMJJHOVoqMQJCQKrj7pV7QpEnDb0cEUrdWuwOZ6ZgIA_a7mpXLcsr0jU_VeRygkKIakETOinI7xih9rhN9RQ5vuuJyq6-cfepwhgST09dhrodtSnzB5PTTgCNMoNK2oeAf7JcMmNRYj8L5UlOeh40UMYwIRWsAvX4bPOZGXLiLicst2Q-AJDUBL0vQvsry3VH_firTwYeh1dnHhovF3f6Q48NvhxSAgxfWCFaN5qu0cCZ5rrvI7oexbBhV-ocWMpVFhaVH-H2hhZXHii6Gx2MBKLsyFWnzkU8ZqbT1SE9PrN9sIdF7ibFL-1b5IOD4fk=w640-h480-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1qnBYp2IKeUPsisIV_5uecAUaRhoR4f_FHEWhFhjbYQNfo9ZYOFWG32-cGjSnI2socKcM7JIns-6SVGxXJd9BRs0cQXJveBYT6QrsMbUNogKGB1vXHWvBQ-jIY2Qd6EOzz7xYsv-Pr-CjGzKkk_xOLb1Ly_IMR121pO54AkNPMI2c1yrnqKwoJGbHdVRFV83YIXcDRzyzCiS3kW1Gqzh9muUuJubCLP9SifVNI5lVHoFA-mjWpb1vZMfplh8BR6_95dxEPU3kggbPGomIe_Eq3imeVyuPy9jARqprMD7mUvOZPahBoTxXidKnGsm8sjHJDOgQOQzB66Q6vJdzsNxisaWe1-Uw8j4gaD3w_JWxC-EY4_mHgUhC10XhDR8eJBZI3fhjIl6NjJWfHZnHmHSquyF1gTldnJ6DKgWH3x9r7xQs604DA7GPqHFvp80QWpem2ItWt7RwN-41tIfCyVdqK-QssqA0D-OkyH7V7FA3zgorlvRIA_c7VtgJEFCeXvKJA9Jfj-XwqEAonpE9rs3X3XdrecJmEWMStge5gkJlB6i-caBXF0kN_bnHw06b5vu82uuj5z61DrDrsRFxfNOWL7Gqlr2lt2oDB45ttA=w640-h480-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dv2ncgDM38p4ugnK1yCfLtVcTdCtlyT4ZBSyto5SvJGJcZ7FxxzCfBSTvN9gQ2IQkNXBqpIZfe5ESZdVlDwwEZkj1VJPJE65LjW-7QDqvyddKI0RHWV2WeMdWTd3oIuCw_ZLw44jA4X287EooCUVZHbfAqYyIu3trGYGrrFmO_VDWjFu8SN4pqK_9a8oc0uTCMwdouTUYUT31tIyatSM34nPewxce3XKSMe11-yae7nFIFLm6qJDoB0fXQeGT5IjwVHgfixQ3WgQ2qj9pQ1PNrMIyK9LzDbBQByjFjND2lDcF76vPqVM9Dnzv57VI0RrJr_-QIwS8b3vpgiZOU_1Re2_YCCkh4Uk9bnZ_nHPiH9xuAYDVrBfcnqq6cSym_8-EXOUMXDifBk1EwqjllVyE6itbZJ_u2XnWxaWW9i2rjGILiBr2mtnwaTxzVk2JMVGrIWYHvL5ydMFx-uzNm8kB6Gl9tBYqW3zOD7tM4_Ti9eIG8u4Op14n5B72c_Ak_FhmrmZULyor_rFL2sQmh8yeVJbHsReFYhDb0Adr2zQzriXrE72mpqUnhEBlPyd4RMcTP_OjwAHNO_lMpBQWuxyQ6mGGPxO_9njX1fGB3o=w640-h480-no)

 ;)
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Mick-S on March 22, 2018, 10:50:47 AM
What does "SD" refer to?
I'm just getting interested in reloading and starting to read up about it.

Thanks
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: IDescribe on March 22, 2018, 11:04:00 AM
What does "SD" refer to?

Standard Deviation

When we develop loads, the preferred method is to build "ladders" with a particular bullet and powder, where each rung of the ladder will have a different charge weight.  Rungs on the ladders might be 8 rounds or 10 rounds, or whatever -- some people do 20.  Then we shoot them over a chronograph and examine various data points at each charge weight. 

Standard deviation is one data point.  It's basically a reference to how spread out velocities are relative to the average velocity for a particular group.

Another data point is extreme spread, often abbreviated ES, which is simply how far apart the slowest and fastest cartridges were in feet/second.
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 22, 2018, 12:02:53 PM
What does "SD" refer to?
I'm just getting interested in reloading and starting to read up about it.

Thanks

Mick -
Welcome Aboard !

Good question ! In other words, it's a way of measuring the accuracy of the cartridge assembly. In my personal opinion I consider anything under 20 to be pretty darn good. Whether the SD number is reflecting materials or human error can be hard to tell. Since my SD numbers start out pretty good, then dip down into "unbelievably good" is a pretty good indicator that the nature of the powder is changing as the chamber pressure increases, thus making the powder behave in more predicable ways.

In other words, some people here think that the powder measures made by the company I prefer are not that accurate, and might blame high SD numbers on my equipment. But I loaded all these in one session, using as nearly identical process as possible. I was very mindful of all this and therefore very careful. So the dip in the SD numbers tend to point to the behaviors of the powder, and not so much to something at my end (meaning me or my equipment).

There's always finger pointing. It's just nice to have them pointing at something else besides me for a change.  ;D


Hope this helps !
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: IDescribe on March 22, 2018, 04:04:15 PM
some people here think that the powder measures made by the company I prefer are not that accurate,

It's not that I think your powder drop is imprecise.  It's just not as precise as mine.   ;)



Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: newageroman on March 22, 2018, 06:40:24 PM
Thanks for the info.
How much $ per bullet? Would you recommend these against the PD bullet load (that I'm leaning toward trying next)?

For ladder load dev -  I run cases through the 650 after setting the min charge weight. Then when going up the ladder I will just pull the case (with min load) and manually weigh (frankfort arsenal digital scale) and trickle powder and then put them back in under the seating station. Mainly because adjusting the powder drop to be .1 up each time and getting it to stay there is just as much a chore for me as trickling a little more powder - if your only doing 10 cases.


Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 22, 2018, 07:34:31 PM
How much $ per bullet? Would you recommend these against the PD bullet load (that I'm leaning toward trying next)?


Price depends upon volume. MBC uses USPS Flat Rate shipping, so typically a minimum of 2000 gets the best shipping price. That is, the fixed shipping fee is spread over more bullets. Four 500-piece boxes fit pretty good into a Large Flat Rate box.

MBC DOES offer the "Bullet Bundle" plan on these, where they fill the box until the 70# limit is reached. That works out to be around 3000 with these bullets.


• These are an excellent coated lead plinking round that loads easily in the CZ chamber, is a size that really fits the barrel nicely, and comes from a company with an outstanding track record for next day shipments. $231 for 3000 bullets.

• Precision Delta is an excellent 124gr Jacketed competition round. Their current price is $252 for 3000 bullets when you use the "PD15" discount code.

Apples and oranges.

So it depends on what you're looking for.  ;)
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: newageroman on March 23, 2018, 12:05:25 AM
Thanks for the pricing/shipping info!
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: M1A4ME on March 23, 2018, 07:14:09 AM
I have never chronographed a single round I've reloading/fired.  Bought one a year or so back and (so far) have never used it.  Might be neat, might use it someday when I have lots of time and no one is around on the range (probably need to take it home one weekend and get it figured out on the "range up above the garden".

Over the years I've read of a few instances where a large number for SD still shot very good groups and the person posting about it was curious how they could get such good groups with a large SD.  The answer was usually that sometimes that just happens.

Standard Deviation is one measure of consistency of whatever parameter you're measuring/recording.  Velocity.  No one does it for group size, but it could be done.  I don't think anyone does it for cartridge overall length, but it could be.

When I was working as a process/production engineer in one of the plastics industries we would start off with no less than 100 samples (readings of the operational temperatures/pressures/percent power/rpm/percent load, etc., etc., etc. and average all of them together (for that particular parameter).  Then we'd let the computer do the calculations to give us the average, the standard deviation and an upper/lower limit of three standard deviations from the average.  That gave us the average (say pressure at a point in the process), the standard deviation and +/- 3 standard deviations from that average to use as an upper limit (+3 sd) and a lower limit (- 3 SD).

Then we'd continue to monitor the process (still collecting data from all those places/conditions in the process).  We looked for two things.
One was a deviation that was above the upper limit or below the lower limit.  If we saw that it indicated a change in the process that could affect the quality of the product or the ability of the process to continue running/making product.  The second thing we looked for was 5 or more readings that trended up, or down.  That was an early indicator of a slower, but meaningful change in the process that could affect quality, or the process itself.  As long as the data points continued to move up/down within that range of upper/lower limits and did not trend up/down more than 5 data points then the process was "normal" and no actions/worries.

That's a sort of short explanation of how we used those numbers/calculations for work.  If you see an actionable deviation then you need to do some trouble shooting to find out what has changed in your process.

If you checked velocity on every round you fired you'd look for similar stuff - a change in velocity outside those control limits or a trend up/down.  It might mean a change in seating depth, change in case mouth crimp, change in amount of powder, change in case volume, change in bullet weight, etc.  Or course, if you check all that stuff at the time you "make" the round you greatly reduce the issues due to things you can control and then you have to look at stuff like primers and powder quality/consistentcy - if you have the resourses/ability to do that.

I just worry about group size.  Which, most of the time in my experience, comes with loads somewhat less than maximum pressure/velocity.

An illustration of different numbers that give similar results for average velocity , except for standard deviation.  Which one would you rather have for your new load?

         
   vel/fps              vel/fps
   1500.00              1250.00
   1400.00              1270.00
   1300.00              1240.00
   1100.00              1260.00
   1000.00              1280.00
         
   1260.00     average   1260.00

   207.36       sd            15.81
         
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 23, 2018, 05:58:14 PM
Caliber:  9x19 Luger
Bullets:  MBC 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek coated LRN
Brass:  RWS
Powder:  Alliant Sport Pistol
Max Velocity:  1075fps (calculated)
Primer:  Remington 1-1/2
OAL:  1.130"
Pistol:  P10c
Qty:  10 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  60F and highly overcast
Chrono:  ProChrono

Load      Avg Vel           SD

3.2gr          897              14
3.3             920              12
3.4             934              10
3.5             949              10
3.6             974                8
3.7             Calculated Max Load

NOTES
- Burned remarkably clean, even at 3.2gr
- Attribute the low SD numbers to the powder and the brass
- Recommend 3.5-3.6gr for general plinking
- Minor smoke
- Calculated Max Velocity seems to be low. Need more investigation.
- My powder measure is more accurate than ID's
- No tested load would lock the stock P10c slide back

 ;)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/C0lmgXfD0zrCYOKRzud5EA4Y_IciUDB6lDtJzllpIc8uAq-jF3kCdIeidwGQ25W7aoT4fnQup4PJqiRZCXkenn3OWS0_4XW337jdLaZXCv0TJxnqE2Fw71CmVRn6beVqG0bMd11neubVQ6IM7Z7cEjMXOSHUgn5-e8W5t9vqD0MU26erAW3u5jwG07p9Gj9OhL869ubK-2yJ_b9mweARSC1DpN-NGGaxsk8ab7mmHuwndRaIqJjL87v6WCQUqozmdtHLBuIaoMb8kF7fh72CNbwLRYdtCC5YnMkvWC0LQWxKaqXxuw0FDvNFlnj8KWU2fiTTD0upnwICmTAH1Gj6yhfRN84owjnr-M-bJ9tsRFdg04hiQoPkgFh000bQcNwsaejtcEhT0VJSeIRzYYnEFj2AZKLXXuqpCByUX0VBJLWTwr9MAtGcCLq0kGWxsiIh_6UpvF5b52xfE3Qi6CNJ0IbCUwMyI3Vtpv8GQJEu1ciaT4V_MvBV1xWKZryHde2N3B8LRNT15Gcf2i1vYXeCiu7bF6tnjIItBy4uZ-XTch9oClAGAP5OosR23iWRdUqwfyy97HYIJYqm4SHp17LQ_QYGOesXnitS8XiJzGY=w640-h400-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Oc-Lgyo5dqSiYKzHPXFMv3sA7QMnCu3M-4_Z2zZ4fO_79Rlyw6UmdBKpbhaUmuOu8ou5r9KMrUFPQ9kjGVBKTmRPXQcejbjYfT6GeNfQlyC5jauHNnQVDSxY2Te8TVBlQsTtO3lcp4iIM_CcFtbZsnAfFbaYsURRjIUpLQO1gSo2MFRDcuVHYDPC1YbSvVyvO8pXGjwJAv29k0lIZepaCgRuGrWKOzE8w_nmv3LkswLTlmsXqaTyh8RoJLEYG1jwV7Wqdp6oy2IOmUXVPnjBxylf1IvdIyCuMlAphYqHD0nc7DTZy7WMlEKik4PKUn24v9Ns1Rn3gkuwJuCipAWuj7Kn7Om4gesbgCdHba80zVLG3j8aLwmIK_odTMNTQ7fngjqv8LtiePqTT0qtVEnMsKAfQpw4PW3f6pkOuP4mfcxEA5EqeNLcLVJDnEbNjzbB4TVMWrsYszXGMUTSPIvX0gco0fbRLgksS9_-C-jTYmYaDz82W4qkPgpo7afkkcNpS0ShPz-yK8HVgAU-SDReMSR9WYiZ88qEiVjrzh9QJi8IImBcSj5g7OExTUOh1idgXbLvr1hTNUPBJSvwlZ33FeassE_oDr2vGKs3TYU=w640-h402-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6KaPYeeUwQGI_wPLnOdlNXGTNsu4DlpfVqwLYystus5iIxWMatIMVew0GBoh2ullshfHC3OZSHk5ZqVkjjCIWzokUf0qPQ-IhKINjnQ0jZ7P_h3FDK0PXx57I6xWGld74Cjp0FjuUbCvJZgI1TS8DakHBPloUOyVpBa8B2rsOyYESN8XkmGQ9YP6E2ZBFs3alpUT6N6DEq88DeoO7d3oImjYmFBxlMpRQuxEH4wu6SBKG7-KsF8FxXLXkykz6GnP3qKWGd7s8cZ9DwPtQhCoI4EJEBN_dsLDxKuygEFTId9P5sS0oa1Mg0U3W3ZJprDA3_NFX8paY3c5h4tSaK_cYLiGKJerRv8V5aBLtSYZLJMPX_DGD8W0GLY1eZA6mVcCgQ1plRNObGaC_3SgNv0_Q_NmMwTypNxWCuhtlmhb2XcoKGHaFLw81HTIUnbkpavlgKSevNrj3nNgf0OnuFwBrGV0O9S-V3IE_LrdFQWDscm2osfOJxCGhgxQWvM9bkrYgTggboJP1h48KKg3BvhWK8MWgFty4v3kiNu_skHxHckm1tikRKfGyxmjQpmxTh-kW9diETtr7cEAXeMxo-z5BuD3CLUP-NxyBMNtT-o=w640-h480-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zqlRKIgBs2-JrenGloqcO6KHsBGfnMIm6GhorYBpJySSkLFVxN64-NVswIxZp0LC9jHNFEReM0dMAzcQpnEZaH8BAFhovTYOC8-g4_3I9b5u8IxC8665nUW2VFcw7Zq8p3WuyVC9o-CVz0_EC72OWvZUg0jiblrL__0PZXTogumDehc3LauWZucLSEQsIagrG64hrnAmjvP1B0-DvN6CktnPHPeaXV-QmEJo4WtZiYEsHd1OOZZMcAyI0d2TUM7yPEEJC6-qpC7acnSjewVrbEcgQ8IXJ1htOPsSed-43DIpzDd1hmF57KIi0tuDs4HKw_f37z_nJVSOwAgtko2xvwDqu5iO7159RdYqcEwDb1FjV2zV4ufslsmZ7uwghBBc-mJlhDO-_q9dTkuq_YppsHgtjp9kMFHEEVCmcFccbBXAiPJb9uCCoXaCUmpcgQsR--KolTCUdpJ9gfuryVYNJIvo7OEnJNcRXs4q4QfuX-b4pQG_6tAu1PgRFkRBrKjc3bgZ9orcV-ayD-Qju4PIxU5m44YS3uQiM3h5lSzsRvT2coYMPoKlN7lb45BWxon3qJogY9289zPMqqANTSm9haFb9hSY9_Tmc85SWxk=w459-h405-no)
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: double-d on March 25, 2018, 10:47:27 AM
Thanks for the load data. 
Unfortunately I couldn't locate the 135gr #8 on MBC's site, perhaps they don't list what they are out of stock on(?).
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: IDescribe on March 25, 2018, 11:29:09 AM
My assumption is that you couldn't find it because you were looking in 9mm, and this is a 38 Super bullet.  It's over-sized by .001 at .357 instead of the typical .356 for 9mm lead.   Don't worry that it says it is for 38 Super.  It works great for 9mm.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=334&category=20&secondary=&keywords= (http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=334&category=20&secondary=&keywords=)
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: double-d on March 25, 2018, 01:56:17 PM
That explains it (was looking in the wrong caliber).

I could be wrong but I would guess it would be helpful if MBC had a search function ..........
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: JRR on March 25, 2018, 02:09:10 PM
Wobbly,
Has your barrel chamber been throated to get your OAL?  I'm loading my 135 cast to 1.097", but they are flat point.
Thanks
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: IDescribe on March 25, 2018, 02:44:03 PM
Wobbly,
Has your barrel chamber been throated to get your OAL?  I'm loading my 135 cast to 1.097", but they are flat point.
Thanks

There is no relationship between bullet weight and maximum OAL.  It's all about the bullet profile.   Different bullets will have different maximums.
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: IDescribe on March 25, 2018, 02:57:01 PM
Incidentally, that bullet in my ShadowLine plunks and spins at 1.105.  I load them to 1.100. 

Wobbly, what's your maximum without rifling engagement?
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 25, 2018, 09:31:44 PM
Incidentally, that bullet in my ShadowLine plunks and spins at 1.105.  I load them to 1.100. 

Wobbly, what's your maximum without rifling engagement?

1.145" exactly. I followed my own advice and subtracted 0.015". My SP-01 Tac is maybe 10 years old or more. I bought it new and never touched the barrel.
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: IDescribe on March 25, 2018, 09:49:45 PM
1.145" exactly. I followed my own advice and subtracted 0.015". My SP-01 Tac is maybe 10 years old or more. I bought it new and never touched the barrel.

Wow.   :o   

My ShadowLine is more short-throated than most, and it's not uncommon for me to see it .02-03 shorter.  This is the first time I've noted a .04 difference relative to someone else's CZ. 
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: painter on March 25, 2018, 10:03:35 PM
Painter is also known for getting the joke five minutes late at dinner parties.  ;)
...or not reading to the end. :-*
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: IDescribe on March 28, 2018, 12:19:00 PM
IDP #8 is listed with the 38 super sized to .357

Painter, can you verify this info for us?
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: viking499 on March 28, 2018, 02:59:51 PM
Viking has the same problem.  He can't find the Hi-tek coated ones.

At my age, I am loosing things all the time.....correct link below......

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=334&category=5&secondary=26&keywords=
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: painter on March 28, 2018, 08:04:14 PM
IDP #8 is listed with the 38 super sized to .357

Painter, can you verify this info for us?
It's true, as Viking shows in his link.

I would use a .357 bullet happily in my .3555 barrel.

As James says...'fit is king'.
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 29, 2018, 08:00:45 AM
As James says...'fit is king'.


Elvis might have something to say about that !   O0
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: painter on March 29, 2018, 08:10:24 AM
As James says...'fit is king'.


Elvis might have something to say about that !   O0
Pretty sure he's left the building. :P
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 29, 2018, 01:29:00 PM
Speaking of burning lead, I've been busy again....

TESTING
Caliber:  9x19 Luger
Bullets:  MBC 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek coated LRN
Brass:  RWS
Powder:  Vit N320
Max Velocity:  1075fps (calculated)
Primer:  Remington 1-1/2
OAL:  1.130"
Pistol:  SP-01 Tac
Qty:  8 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  70F and highly overcast
Chrono:  ProChrono

Load      Avg Vel           SD
3.6             976               5
3.7             992               6
3.8           1020               9
3.9           1038               9


NOTES
• Burned remarkably clean, even at 3.6gr
• Attribute the low SD numbers to the powder and consistent brass
• Recommend 3.8-3.9gr for general plinking
• No smoke noted
• My powder measure is better than ID's powder measure
• Might be able to get in 4.0gr as Max Load at ~1060
• What can I say, I like these bullets.

 ;)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Qvf2C0WxhjCV4miaLmw0VC1wRjefTLn_KIAyUYiBxGwVR9uy-sn5RW49BHaJbJB5JNxXzgvwbm4lRQL9JdqiDuJSyfG42yKi3InC9JFGyFcndNL3jiDQbRQR1-R4GnlcsRrOSiUGenqtF_vKiUeuqHbYElHCQW8rDpMe4eLs_TgwDmA9DhmZzURr5bm6O_jVzpTu1Ci3RtDH0s4ybhtwdE77Wyaq-1dIsmXR8n6MKsHtFipj2cQXHA7oIwBURVLy5Wbo0h0cg8jwVh8l_Vaqzastthe8lOOpWUyTat8HKk-K0fSMLgcQ1uFyu6Mm-aa_HLs_Bl9UdVJ1yD0ae5i8ZUU9Zknp37rv2Bom3KZeTiRZPclDnOROuQ6p1wiQeoIgHjsjfHilRk_-X7ILWCsPRacZ_QWiFkv283lftSxc7IYY3punyqdfiC7SQ8zLVjy63dCiqUGriDzi4wIAJZeloE7MlpVN06T2eDbxqhvDmPakHELVVEjVDzXfvnQsU4Xhm400b65i9xf31i5WImhK2gXCsQWhnLcB0KXAMGCdUN61dmLmeQuzMz7dKJB7at-OaqrffXtKiE-9ziSm7Ssugv0W28PsO_UkDPGYMFw=w640-h480-no)
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: 1SOW on March 29, 2018, 10:31:25 PM
 
Quote
? Attribute the low SD numbers to the powder and consistent brass

POWDER and drop, Bullet and Brass. O0 :)
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 30, 2018, 07:34:43 AM
Actually, I'm starting to believe Winchester components were a huge part of my previously high SD numbers. Almost makes me want to go back and re-do those older tests.
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: viking499 on March 30, 2018, 08:05:52 AM
Why do you think the Winchester components made a difference?
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on March 30, 2018, 11:16:25 AM
Why do you think the Winchester components made a difference?


Winchester is nothing more than a marketing company, which means it's run by accountants. They buy whatever they can and arrange to have the "Winchester" logo placed on it. (This is why W231 costs more than HP-38.) So when it comes to brass, you had better believe that they are scouring the world to contract with the cheapest maker. And although their primers are only made by Olin, they are probably pushing them cut every corner in order to save a nickel on every 50,000 pieces.

So while I have tons of "Win" brass, it covers 2 decades and possibly 4 to 5 contracts. So there could be huge variations in internal volume, even within a lot of 10 individual pieces.

So I've simply stopped using anything Winchester for testing. It's good enough for competition, but in a test where you want to see low SD numbers to confirm your process, I'm simply not convinced their particular variations are small enough considering the time (hours) it takes to build a set of test cartridges. In other words, the risk is too high considering the immense labor content.

 ;)
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: IDescribe on March 31, 2018, 09:06:11 AM
I?ve found how shiny the bullet is to have a noticeable impact on SD.  Coated is generally better than jacketed, and jacketed tend to be a bit better than the super shiny plated.  So one thing I?d consider is whether or not the fact you?ve been loading a lot of MBC coated bullets is contributing to your lower SD numbers.  I have also found the angle of the sun to affect SD, and I would wonder if the time of year is playing a role, as well.

Just two more factors to consider.  ;)

I can?t speak to Winchester brass, but I use Winchester primers a lot (my preference, really), and my SD numbers are typically great once I get into the middle of the charge window and higher.  I expect 5-7, and rarely do I not get that. 
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Wobbly on April 20, 2020, 01:27:49 PM
I have been using the Bear Creek Supply 135gr LRN coated. It is slightly longer than the MBC 135gr LRN (0.628" V 0.622"). Bear creek supply recommend seating it at 1.110" , a recommendation I have been following. Using HP38, I ran a ladder from 3.0gr to 3.6gr. The 3.0gr didn't cycle well. Knowing that it is seated deeper and slightly longer do you think I could try a higher load?


Yes, even without a chrono. If you've got stock springs, then you should be throwing brass 4-6 ft. As my test shows, the load range for W231 (aka "HP-38") is over 1.0gr. If you're testing down at 3.0gr, then I would work up in 0.2gr increments until 3.6gr. As we all know, powder burns more efficiently as pressure builds, so at 3.6gr I'd begin using 0.1gr increments.

Using this, you could possibly go as high as 4.0gr, but I bet your best loads are going to be around 3.7 or 3.8gr. You can "read" the primers if you want, but personally I'd put more stock in the interior color of the cases and ejection distance. When 231 is burning "right" it's going to burn light gray and the cases are going to loose their blackness on the case mouth exterior.

(https://i.imgur.com/UTtpt7F.jpg)

In the case of 231, what's good for the powder is also good for the gun.


Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Long Branch Setter on April 20, 2020, 07:53:23 PM
Never loaded the 135gr in a 9mm but have fired thousands in 38 super. My standard load for 9mm is the 124 gr MBC coated bullet w/ 4 gr of Bullseye. A friend was getting out of reloading and gave me 8 lbs of old Bullseye, no idea how old it is but the powder is loose in a big cardboard “can”. It’s a bit dirty but still goes bang every time.......using 4 gr a round 8 lbs goes a long way.

LBS
Title: Re: Missouri Bullet (MBC) 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek Coated bullet test
Post by: Gnnut2 on April 20, 2020, 11:33:50 PM
Great thread guys. Sort of reminds me of a family reunion talking about old times, Elvis songs, and guns. Seriously, this thread was filled with good information exchanged by folks from different walks of life and different perspectives on things, but each share a love for firearms and shooting.The respect exhibited here should be packaged in a textbook for Political Science 101. This forum is the best!