The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Cajun Gun Works => Topic started by: broadside on July 15, 2018, 06:30:08 PM
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Installed the 75110 Pro package on my SP01 and SA is great at a hair under 3lb. However the DA only went from 11.5lb to 10lb. I have had it apart several times and polished all the parts outlined in the various tutorials. Any ideas? Blue hammer spring installed, along with trigger return and FPB spring from the kit.
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Assuming your pins are not bent (and binding) this does seem strange. Just changing the stock hammer spring on my SP-01 without any polishing, using a 13lb hammer spring drastically reduces the DA pull 3-4 lbs depending on the CZC or CGW 13 lb spring.
I'm grasping at straws here but there was a time I was tuning a Tanfoglio constantly that I forgot to lube it between reassembly and testing. That caused my pulls to be horrible. Did you lube your pistol before taking the pull?
What disconnector are you using?
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Just a thought......not sure what type grips you have but if the grips are thinner and your using the standard longer screws, they can hinder the main/hammer springs when it is being compressed by the trigger pull/hammer motion.....hence causing more force needed to pull the trigger.....just thinking outside the box here, if you've done all you said and cleaned/lubed things up you should be getting below the 10 lbs threshold.
You can check this by removing one grip panel and looking to see how far the other grip panels screw protrudes in towards the main spring. The screw shouldn't protrude past the frames threaded grip screw hole much, if at all ideally. If it does you'll have to make that call if its acceptable or is it making contact with the spring......hopefully this is a non-issue
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Pull the main spring and check the trigger action for binding/ feel. You will have to keep the main spring strut in the proper spot and you can use your thumb to keep tension on the hammer.
Everything should move freely and smoothly without the main spring. If not, something isn't right.
Cheers,
Toby
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...an interesting thought on the grip screws. I will be sure to check on that going forward when checking trigger pulls.
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All pins that are included with the Pro Package are straight. I do notice that the upper pin from the mag brake is bent a little it but that shouldn't impact DA pull (plus if I leave it out nothing changes). Sear cage is greased and the trigger and hammer pivot points and sides of trigger bar are oiled. Grip screws are not an issue, I loosened them and it still is 10lb.
The action is smooth. The hammer has some left-right movement but runs straight back when pulling the trigger.
There is no grinding or anything like that. I built my 1911s and GP100 so this kind of work is not new to me, but I am fairly new to CZ.
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and the disconnector is the 1487-T3 that comes in the pro package
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Are all the springs relating to the trigger riding where they are supposed to?
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As far as I know its assembled right. The short side of the trigger return spring is on the inside of the trigger next to the set screw and the long side is outside facing forward and riding in the center notch of the frame.
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If no results from the suggestions, take the mag brake "out", reassemble and try it again.
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If no results from the suggestions, take the mag brake "out", reassemble and try it again.
Just did that no change. I put the original hammer spring in and it went up 11lb. It is a little stiffer but it shorter than the blue one.
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Could be related to the stock trigger bar and sear cage. One of our newest gunsmiths ("Big John") made an amazing discovery this month on the DA pull.
If the trigger bar goes rearward just a few thousands to much at the very end of the DA travel, the DA can stack at the end of the pull and really push the weight up in DA.
Big John also figured out the solution. We observed one test CZ go from a "stacky" 8lb. 6 oz. DA down to an amazing 6 lbs. 14 oz., with a linear DA using his fix.
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I don't think it is stacking. The trigger pull gauge just keeps climbing then it breaks without the trigger moving much at all after the initial take up. I might not be seeing it though.
I am now noticing a lot of wear on the left side of the hammer (race version) and after checking it looks like there is play in the hammer side to side (hammer to main pin is sloppy). With the disconnector pushing only on the right side I can see it eating the slack and twisting the hammer into the left side of the frame. If I slide a thin piece of paper between the hammer and frame on each side, the left piece is tighter as the hammer cycles. The main hammer pin is OEM. Not sure this is 3lb of extra trigger weight though as I can slide the paper out still
The action is smooth and crisp, just not as light as I was hoping on the DA. I need to decide if I have the time to send it to CGW.
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Could be related to the stock trigger bar and sear cage. One of our newest gunsmiths ("Big John") made an amazing discovery this month on the DA pull.
If the trigger bar goes rearward just a few thousands to much at the very end of the DA travel, the DA can stack at the end of the pull and really push the weight up in DA.
Big John also figured out the solution. We observed one test CZ go from a "stacky" 8lb. 6 oz. DA down to an amazing 6 lbs. 14 oz., with a linear DA using his fix.
I too have noticed some variance in DA pull feel amongst very small differences in sear-cage-to-frame fit. Like.....if there's more movement of the sear cage, there is a bit more stack at the end, but if there's less the DA pull resistance seems to 'fall off'a bit earlier. I actually prefer the former a bit more in my two shadows as the DA feels a bit more 'linear' on quick pulls, whereas with the latter sometimes there's a little more chance of gun movement right before the hammer falls.
Also, I replaced the trigger bar in my Accu Shadow with a stock unit to get a little more trigger reach as the area where it engages the sear was different by around .009".
In my SP01 that I converted to SAO and mated with a TS Long Slide, there was a lot of clop between the sear cage and frame. Obviously no DA pull, but in SA you could notice a fair amount of camming even with a competition hammer and see the movement in etc manual safeties. So I did the 'stabilizing pin' mod on that and put made the SA break nice and crisp.
https://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=85892.0
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Can you post up pictures of the left side hammer wear? Plus pictures of the sear cage and trigger bar would be helpful as well.
Cheers,
Toby
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I don't feel like stripping it down all the way. Only polished with wet 1000 grit. Left machine marks as expected. Sides of trigger bar looks like a zebra!
(http://bryngelson.net/koken/storage/cache/images/000/021/20180716-144752,medium.1531778263.jpg)
(http://bryngelson.net/koken/storage/cache/images/000/022/20180716-145204,medium.1531778276.jpg)
(http://bryngelson.net/koken/storage/cache/images/000/025/20180716-145321,medium.1531778304.jpg)
(http://bryngelson.net/koken/storage/cache/images/000/024/20180716-145307,medium.1531778294.jpg)
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Also check to see if the spring that lifts the trigger bar is riding in the slost underneath. Sometimes it can bind between the trigger bar and frame.
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Also check to see if the spring that lifts the trigger bar is riding in the slot underneath. Sometimes it can bind between etc trigger bar and frame.
Its in the right spot
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When you keep the trigger depressed and manually rock the hammer back and forth, do you feel friction like drag on one side?
Also, if the hammer is indeed a bit canted/leaning, then the corner of one of the 'teeth' may be causing a lot of drag on the bottom side of the sear as it moves across.
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Is this pistol new? How many rounds total?
Under the sear cage on the pads that ride over the trigger bar should be polished as well.
Nothing looks out of place. I'm not sure what is causing the hammer wear but that doesn't seem normal. Did your OEM hammer have the same wear?
Cheers,
Toby
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So holding the trigger and running the hammer with my thumb has no friction and equal play left and right.
Pulling the trigger half way, the hammer has no play to the left and some to the right so as I suspected it's pushing the hammer a bit and dragging. But I can't see that being an additional 3lb
Is the hammer hole out of spec? Is the original hammer pivot pin out of spec? I'm using the hammer, both hammer pins, and disconnector from CGW and then the original strut and main pivot pin.
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The underside of the sear cage is polished as well. Both the pads and the center where the disconnector can make contact and even the ledge on the back side that pushes on the disconnector arm. Not great but I did some there.
The gun has 500 rounds through it prior to the new parts based on what I shot and the PO told me (and based on wear he seems to be honest about it). None since as I'm trying to figure out this DA issue.
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Put the old hammer and pins back in to see if there is a difference.
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And the old hammer has some wear but on the opposite side the new one has.
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Is the hammer strut polished?
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Is the hammer strut polished?
Yes
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As an update, I ordered a CGW "black" hammer spring and DA is now 7lb. So not sure why the blue one resulted in a 10lb DA when the advertised spring rate difference is only 1.5#
Whatever the issue is/was, I like the way its running now! The yellow recoil spring is nice too....
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As an update, I ordered a CGW "black" hammer spring and DA is now 7lb. So not sure why the blue one resulted in a 10lb DA when the advertised spring rate difference is only 1.5#
Whatever the issue is/was, I like the way its running now! The yellow recoil spring is nice too....
May want to try different types of ammo. No big deal if you're only using for range or running Federal soft primers. Otherwise you may get some light primer strikes with different types of defensive ammo and black spring.
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I have heard this may the hammer spring at the edge of light strikes. However I have been shooting matches with a guy running the exact same setup and he has not had any issues with his reloads and he runs several different primer brands he says.
I ran mine last night and it shot reman ammo great with normal looking firing pin divets (I am sure the longer firing pin and reduced power firing pin spring help of the pro package help with that). I have another reman brand to try as well as some MagTech and Hornady factory stuff I can test
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Could have been an out of spec or damaged blue hammer spring. Intereststing to try a different one in the same weight to if equally bad.
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(http://bryngelson.net/koken/storage/cache/images/000/025/20180716-145321,medium.1531778304.jpg)
Glad you found a solution.
I would've guessed it was a problem with your trigger bar spring being trapped between the trigger bar and frame. Looks over-tightened or bent in the picture.
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The trigger bar spring has always been in the proper slots. I too am glad I found a solution but unfortunately I don't know the root cause
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I too just performed a pro kit install.
My da pull went from 8.5# to 7.5# with the blue spring. I'm going to try the black spring next.
Has anyone tried adjusting the recoil springs?
I shoot factory 124gr ammo. Is there any benefit of replacing the stock spring?
I was planning on buying the tuner pack and see what works, but would love some advice before I get started.
Thanks
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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Could be related to the stock trigger bar and sear cage. One of our newest gunsmiths ("Big John") made an amazing discovery this month on the DA pull.
If the trigger bar goes rearward just a few thousands to much at the very end of the DA travel, the DA can stack at the end of the pull and really push the weight up in DA.
Big John also figured out the solution. We observed one test CZ go from a "stacky" 8lb. 6 oz. DA down to an amazing 6 lbs. 14 oz., with a linear DA using his fix.
I have been thinking about this post: probably once a week while in the shower and probably a few times a week commuting to work. I recognize that seems rather unhealthy. So be it.
Do you have any more details you can share about this? This has been eating away at me.
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I don't think it is stacking. The trigger pull gauge just keeps climbing then it breaks without the trigger moving much at all after the initial take up. I might not be seeing it though.
I am now noticing a lot of wear on the left side of the hammer (race version) and after checking it looks like there is play in the hammer side to side (hammer to main pin is sloppy). With the disconnector pushing only on the right side I can see it eating the slack and twisting the hammer into the left side of the frame. If I slide a thin piece of paper between the hammer and frame on each side, the left piece is tighter as the hammer cycles. The main hammer pin is OEM. Not sure this is 3lb of extra trigger weight though as I can slide the paper out still
The action is smooth and crisp, just not as light as I was hoping on the DA. I need to decide if I have the time to send it to CGW.
Can I ask what the solution is?
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I don't think it is stacking. The trigger pull gauge just keeps climbing then it breaks without the trigger moving much at all after the initial take up. I might not be seeing it though.
I am now noticing a lot of wear on the left side of the hammer (race version) and after checking it looks like there is play in the hammer side to side (hammer to main pin is sloppy). With the disconnector pushing only on the right side I can see it eating the slack and twisting the hammer into the left side of the frame. If I slide a thin piece of paper between the hammer and frame on each side, the left piece is tighter as the hammer cycles. The main hammer pin is OEM. Not sure this is 3lb of extra trigger weight though as I can slide the paper out still
The action is smooth and crisp, just not as light as I was hoping on the DA. I need to decide if I have the time to send it to CGW.
Can I ask what the solution is?
Hammer has been working fine. I changed the main spring to the Cajun black one. DA is good now
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I wonder what would happen if you put the suspect spring back in. I have a feeling the problem you had would not return again. Just a thought.
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Strange, but I am glad that you got it worked out.
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I had a similar issue with blue spring in my 97b. Just cut two coils off problem solved. Hundreds of rounds no light strikes.
With a cocked hammer the spring would kink so much it would push against the mag brake. Compared parts with the 75 and couldn’t see a difference. So I just cut away.