The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: scribe556 on July 21, 2018, 08:14:55 PM
-
Noticed that when you press the muzzle against a surface and drive the slide back to the front of the frame, you still get an ignition on trigger press.
Read: CQC close-range use....
All my others do not function when the muzzle is pressed back...
Just FYI
-
P320 does it, as well. (https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/12/massad-ayoob-tests-sig-sauer-p320-9mm/)
But the P320 will also fire if you drop it, soo...
-
Thanks to a company called Proof Mark, my Glock 19 (Gen V) is not disabled. The attached device is called Muzzle Standoff Device (MSD).
https://imageshack.com/i/pnIn5SSjj
A clever device that Proof Mark is now working on for other models.
https://www.proofmarkllc.com
I am not affiliated, just thought it was cool, and snagged one. Oh, and Safariland makes a holster and Milt Sparks is working on one to be carried by Proof Mark when they are done, both for Glock 19. Sorry for the re-direct but thought it related.
GS
-
That is not a feature - that is a not quite right disconnector, allowing the firing pin to move while the weapon is out of battery, can be a very bad juju. You might see if yours needs to go to CZ-USA for repairs.
-
That is not a feature - that is a not quite right disconnector, allowing the firing pin to move while the weapon is out of battery, can be a very bad juju. You might see if yours needs to go to CZ-USA for repairs.
Good point, will check with CZ if it?s a feature or s fix.....
-
Noticed that when you press the muzzle against a surface and drive the slide back to the front of the frame, you still get an ignition on trigger press.
If you had said "I pressed the muzzle against a board and pushed the slide backward until it was flush with the frame, then pulled the trigger, and the gun fired a round through the board," I'd have no doubt what happened.
But as you wrote it...
Any chance you could specifically describe what happened?
I'm assuming you fired a round through something you were pressing the muzzle against? What led you to press the muzzle against a surface until the muzzle was flush with the frame, then pull the trigger? What did you shoot the round through? You did have a negligent discharge, correct?
-
Noticed that when you press the muzzle against a surface and drive the slide back to the front of the frame, you still get an ignition on trigger press.
If you had said "I pressed the muzzle against a board and pushed the slide backward until it was flush with the frame, then pulled the trigger, and the gun fired a round through the board," I'd have no doubt what happened.
But as you wrote it...
Any chance you could specifically describe what happened?
I'm assuming you fired a round through something you were pressing the muzzle against? What lead you to press the muzzle against a surface until the muzzle was flush with the frame, then pull the trigger? What did you shoot the round through? You did have a negligent discharge, correct?
Not fired. Just muzzle press on a flat surface. Slide moving about 1/8?-3/16?.
-
Not fired. Just muzzle press on a flat surface. Slide moving about 1/8?-3/16?.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. So...
...you still get an ignition on trigger press.
So you did not "get ignition on trigger press". That's why I asked. I suspected not. So what then actually happened? You pulled the trigger and felt/heard something spring loaded release/break in the fire control group, and you're assuming it was the firing pin releasing and moving through its normal, full range of movement?
-
I guess I'm just again asking you to specifically describe what happened, in detail. ;)
-
Ahh. Hammer fired pistols. Never any doubt whether or not the "hammer dropped."
The barrel locks up into the slide before you fire (most semiauto handguns). It does that to insure the cartridge case walls and base are as securely supported as possible by heat treated (strong) steel as the case alone cannot support the pressure generated with the round is fired.
If the barrel was not securely "locked up" in the slide then you would not get that very slight delay between maximum pressure and the bullet leaving the barrel (which drops the pressure very rapidly to a safe level.) The result could be (if it wasn't fully locked up when the round fired) the slide moving rearward too soon and the case rupturing and dumping 35,000 to 40,000 psi of pressure out into the frame/magazine/slide resulting in damage/destruction to the pistol and the shooter.
Oh, I guess the XD/XDM pistols have a visible striker position indicator (forgot about that) so you'd know if the striker was released on one of those, too.
One other thing - you've got a striker block in the slide. I'll bet, when the slide is part of the way back, the striker block is not lifted into position to clear the striker as it moves forward when released by the sear. Had a repeat timing issue on an M&P once. I could hear a "click" but would have no mark on the primer. The trigger bar was not fully lifting the striker block upwards. The sear would release the striker and the striker would fly forward but hit the striker block and be stopped before it could hit the primer and set the cartridge off.
Good luck with it.
One more thing (getting old = I blame it on getting old) you can try to ease your mind. Make sure the pistol is empty, empty, EMPTY! Then, with the slide forward, place a pencil in the barrel and point the muzzle up. Pull the trigger. Does the pencil bounce upwards? If so it's because the striker hit it when the sear released the striker. Now, do it again, except use one hand to push the slide back even with the frame and squeeze the trigger again. Did the pencil bounce up the same amount? If so, you may have a problem as the striker block isn't blocking the striker's forward travel speed/energy.
-
One other thing - you've got a striker block in the slide. I'll bet, when the slide is part of the way back, the striker block is not lifted into position to clear the striker as it moves forward when released by the sear.
Exactly. This has been my suspicion from the first post and why I wanted the OP to confirm "ignition" meant that a round had been fired. If a round had discharged with the slide already that far back, I'm pretty sure the results would have warranted a different initial description of the event.
I don't own a P-10C, so I can't check it myself. But I'm guessing all he did is confirm a safety feature works as opposed to identifying a safety concern.
-
OK, so I unloaded the FDE P-10C and checked this.
1 - the slide and barrel travel rearward with no unlocking of the barrel until it passes the end of the dust cover. Essentially, the same locked unit as it is when 100% fully forward.
2- the trigger actuates the striker in this position
How do I know?
3 - I did the pencil test. Note - the pencil test shows much less movement in the P-10C than in any other pistol I have owned, but it still moves. With the barrel retracted to the flush-with-the-frame mark, the striker was released and the pencil moved. Again, at this exact position the barrel and slide are still fully locked. As the slide goes farther back the barrel drops, and the disconnector blocks out striker travel.
4- I am not going to try this test with live ammo anytime this century or the next, BUT considering the unit is still locked I am reversing myself and saying this is not a hazard, to the best of my limited knowledge. I do know both my P-10Cs are fully functional and show no issues.
-
4- I am not going to try this test with live ammo anytime this century or the next
Hold my beer, I'ma try something...
-
I am not going to try this test with live ammo anytime this century or the next,
Right. No reason to risk the barrel unlocking with the bullet still in the barrel. That could be catastrophic.
It might be worth someone talking to CZ, though, to see if this is, in fact, a feature, and whether or not it's safe.
-
I tried this with both of mine too. I can see the slide move appropriately 1/8th if an inch and everything appears to be still in battery and the striker will release. Not ever trying that with live ammo so not an issue for me. David
-
When I was having my failure to fire issues with the M&P 9MM (2nd time around) I got out my Glock, Colt, XDM pistols and did the pencil test with all of them.
Colt - will bounce a pencil off the ceiling (hammer fired)
Glock - will bounce the pencil up off the breech face, but not out of the barrel
XDM - will bounce the pencil up out of the barrel about 6 or 8 inches (all the way out, just high enough to catch it with your other hand)
M&P - same as the Glock, very light strike compared to the XDM (Glock, XDM and M&P all striker fired) but about the same as the Glock.
I never tried any of them with the slide/barrel pushed partially to the rear.
-
That is not a feature - that is a not quite right disconnector, allowing the firing pin to move while the weapon is out of battery, can be a very bad juju. You might see if yours needs to go to CZ-USA for repairs.
Yea, I mentioned this before.
On my P10c I had a reload (that works in everything else) fail to fully chamber. That doesn't bother me. Shallow throat, I get it, I'll adjust my OAL. What DID give me an uneasy feeling was the fact I dropped the striker by pressing the trigger and even left a little ding in the primer while the wrapon was visually out of battery. Not what I'd call a "feature".
-
Okay gents (I presumed there are no ladies on this post, please excuse me if I'm wrong :)) I have been waiting to test your concern/not concern in a controlled environment. Test gun is my P10C with about 600 rds down range, nothing special.
***Please do not become another Darwin-award recipient if you don't reload***
I sized a few 9mm cases, primed them, and ONLY PRIMER in the sized case, no end cap, nothing that even close to a bullet. Basically a wide open mouth EMPTY CASE. Chambered the sized case that has only live primer. With safety glasses and ear pro. in, I pushed the muzzle of the P10C against a board with a hole drilled through (to relieve gas pressure). Back stop is basically the berm behind target stand. Proceeded to push the muzzle against this board until slide moved back and just before barrel unlocking, pulled the trigger and...Nothing! Just the slide being moved forward by the striker spring force. Yes it went 'click', but just the striker being released off the 'sear' plate but the striker blocking pin did not allow the striker to go forward. Repeat a few times with primed cases and again, nothing happened. Striker did not impact the live primer unless the slide is fully forward without any pressure against the muzzle.
There you have it. The striker blocking pin did its job.
-
Glad yours did. Maybe I should call CZ, about mine, because BOTH times it happened to me (live round, pressed trigger without noticing weapon out of battery) I had light dents in the primer. While I don't like betting fingers on it, I doubt it can get a hard enough strike from that far out tho.
I'll run the primer only test, to confirm, when I get my slide back (this week woohoo!)
-
P320 does it, as well. (https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/12/massad-ayoob-tests-sig-sauer-p320-9mm/)
But the P320 will also fire if you drop it, soo...
[emoji23][emoji38][emoji322]🤪
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk