The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Pistolet on July 27, 2018, 06:01:35 PM
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Hi Everybody, I'm new here. I have been looking at several forums for tips on reloading and the CZ is by far the best forum I've come across, lots of good info and people are courteous and patient. I started reloading a couple of month ago with mixed results. Mostly with Titegroup and Berry's 124 gr round nose, got a couple of squibs that thankfully I noticed before firing the next round (I've reviewed my method of organization since). I've loaded and shot about 800 rounds.
Then I experimented with 147 gr moly-coated and got a small Kaboom where the barrel did not explode but swelled up! I had to get a new one. I don't know why. It could be a squib or a double charge or a seating depth problem.
So I'm staying away from advanced loading techniques and as per recommendations I found on this forum I ordered Precision Delta 124 gr FMJ and bought some Hodgon HP38.
I have a few books, Lee, Lyman, Gun Guides, but none of them mention this particular bullet. I know that all FMJ's are not alike. Where should I start?
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PD FMJ 124gr IS very standard profile FMJ bullet. It can be loaded to most OAL. Many found that OAL 1.135-1.150" feed and shot reliable and accurate. Published load data for any 124gr FMJ bullet would be a good start, just start from the low end of the charging range.
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KB:
1) Always look in the case for powder height before placing bullet on case.
For single-stage loading, I use a bench-mounted powder measure and I charge a case, look in the to verify powder height, and I immediately seat a bullet.
For progressive reloading, I use an RCBS Lock-Out die and I STILL visually inspect each case for powder height.
2) 9x19 has the greatest variation in cases, including case wall thickness. Some case walls are so thin that the bullet is not held under tension by the case and will get pushed into the case during feeding. I always push down on the seated bullet using thumb or finger pressure to be sure the bullet doesn't move. Any movement, I break the round down and trash the case. NOTE: taper crimping is NOT to hold the bullet, but just to remove the case mouth flare.
3) A barrel "swelling up," (usually referred to as "ringing the barrel") is caused by a barrel obstruction. Most likely a stuck bullet from a squib you missed and, for 9x19, the following round had to be a very weak round to ONLY ring the barrel. You're lucky.
4) PD has a great deal on blemished 115gn JHP
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FWIW: As a new reloader, I recommend you continue with the PD124 RN bullets over the HP38/Win 231 ball powder. After you've developed safe accurate loading procedures, expand out to experiment with other plated and FMJ bullets. Keep an accurate log of all the components and your loads as well as notes about your shooting results with each load tested.
At the risk of of repeating what you now know, make SURE you're loading In the published load data's ,"safe range" of your powder choice. Some powders can easily be overloaded or even double loaded. HP38 at 4.3 +/- GRS can't be double charged. Physically SEE every powder drop for every cartridge loaded. This usually requires a small light shining directly into the case being loaded with powder. Many good methods can be found here for good lighting options using LEDs or other small.lights. this prevents a primer only squib. Even with very little powder loaded, the bullet should pass the barrel.
Don't rush through loading your chosen loads. Think about what every handle pull is doing.
Just like pistol shooting, learn the safe loading basics first .
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Please describe in detail the method by which you lube your cases.
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I just have a few books, here?s what I have found so far for Win231/HP38in the following books:
Lee modern reloading: 125gr jacketed 1.069 OAL 2.8-3.3gr
complete reloading manual for the 9mm luger: Win 231 Win FMJ 124gr 1.1609 max 4.2-4.5gr
HP38 125gr SIE FMJ 1.090 OAL 4.4-4.8gr
Reloading guide for pistols 125 gr sierra FMJ 1.090 OAL 4.4-4.8gr
Lyman doesn?t seem to have any data for this bullet.
That?s a lot of conflicting information with max loads varying from 3.3 to 4.8 depending on the source.
OAL is not an issue for me as I don?t own a CZ, yet, (I hope you don?t hold that against me :)),
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Please describe in detail the method by which you lube your cases.
I don't use lube. I have been using the Lee classic Turret with carbide dies. I do clean my cases in plenty of dishwater and rinse a lot. should I still use lube?
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Sounds to me like you are doing due diligence regarding powder ranges int he books you have. This leaves the possibility that you missed seeing the level of powder in the one that went kaboom. Make sure you actually see the powder before placing the bullet.
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YES, use case lube, even with carbide dies.
Hornady Oneshot works well. I put a few hundred cases on a bath towel, spray them lightly, from a distance, then pick them up in the bath towel and tumble them like I'm polishing a bowling ball. Let dry overnight.
Your squib issue sounded like powder fouling to me, and I figured from too much case lube. Obviously, that's not the case. So my assumption now is that you are loading bullets into uncharged cases, and to get 3 in 800 rounds indicates a problem with your process.
You need to look into every case before seating the bullet to make sure a powder charge is there. Your process now, wherever the lapse may be, is dangerous.
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YES, use case lube, even with carbide dies.
Hornady Oneshot works well. I put a few hundred cases on a bath towel, spray them lightly, from a distance, then pick them up in the bath towel and tumble them like I'm polishing a bowling ball. Let dry overnight.
Your squib issue sounded like powder fouling to me, and I figured from too much case lube. Obviously, that's not the case. So my assumption now is that you are loading bullets into uncharged cases, and to get 3 in 800 rounds indicates a problem with your process.
You need to look into every case before seating the bullet to make sure a powder charge is there. Your process now, wherever the lapse may be, is dangerous.
I think I have figured out my squib issue, When I was making a ladder, I was disorganized and doing too many things at once, removing the shell from the press to weigh the powder using two different scales, sometimes having a load on each scale to try to go faster so it was easy to get mixed up. I am being much more methodical now.
I have a Lee resizing lubricant in a tube that came with the turret press kit, does that work too?
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I just have a few books, here?s what I have found so far for Win231/HP38in the following books:
Lee modern reloading: 125gr jacketed 1.069 OAL 2.8-3.3gr
complete reloading manual for the 9mm luger: Win 231 Win FMJ 124gr 1.1609 max 4.2-4.5gr
HP38 125gr SIE FMJ 1.090 OAL 4.4-4.8gr
Reloading guide for pistols 125 gr sierra FMJ 1.090 OAL 4.4-4.8gr
Lyman doesn?t seem to have any data for this bullet.
That?s a lot of conflicting information with max loads varying from 3.3 to 4.8 depending on the source.
OAL is not an issue for me as I don?t own a CZ, yet, (I hope you don?t hold that against me :)),
Look here http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
I have not had a spectacular results with W231/HP38 in 9mm. The best was with OAL 1.150" and HP38 at 4.3gr.
My results with Titegroup are much better.
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The only time you should be measuring charges is when you are setting up the drop. NEVER empty a case while in production.
Still, and also, look into every case before seating a bullet.
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The only time you should be measuring charges is when you are setting up the drop. NEVER empty a case while in production.
Still, and also, look into every case before seating a bullet.
I hear you!
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I just have a few books, here?s what I have found so far for Win231/HP38in the following books:
Lee modern reloading: 125gr jacketed 1.069 OAL 2.8-3.3gr
complete reloading manual for the 9mm luger: Win 231 Win FMJ 124gr 1.1609 max 4.2-4.5gr
HP38 125gr SIE FMJ 1.090 OAL 4.4-4.8gr
Reloading guide for pistols 125 gr sierra FMJ 1.090 OAL 4.4-4.8gr
Lyman doesn?t seem to have any data for this bullet.
That?s a lot of conflicting information with max loads varying from 3.3 to 4.8 depending on the source.
OAL is not an issue for me as I don?t own a CZ, yet, (I hope you don?t hold that against me :)),
Look here http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
I have not had a spectacular results with W231/HP38 in 9mm. The best was with OAL 1.150" and HP38 at 4.3gr.
My results with Titegroup are much better.
So it seems like you are following the recipe for the 124 GR. BERB HBRN TP which is for a plated bullet rather than the one for the 125 GR. SIE FMJ which is an FMJ. But the 124gr precision Delta is a FMJ, I would have thought you would would have followed the recipe for 125 GR. SIE FMJ.
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I use an empty (several actually) plastic pistol ammo tray from a spent box of ammo for the bigger brass cases (.40, .45, .38, etc.)
For 9MM I have to use a standard case block like RCBS or Lyman sells. You can put 50 pieces of brass in it and charge each one (till all 50 are charged with powder) and then use a small bright flashlight (or any light you can angle to shine into the cases) to check all of them for powder and to compare powder charge height/amount in the cases. I can't pick up a very small difference in the amount of powder but enough difference to cause a squib or an double charged case is easy to see.
I don't use case lube on pistol cases when using carbide dies. That's why I bought carbide dies. Some people do, I never have. I do run my brass through a vibratory cleaner with crushed walnut shell media and I've read that the powdery residue left on the brass acts as a lube in the resizing die. I can't confirm that, I've just read it.
The advice about using powder you can't double charge is very good advice.
I also weigh check 10% of my powder charges prior to seating the bullets. When I do the flashlight/powder charge visual check of the 50 cases I pick out any that look high (very seldom) of low (can be fairly often with some powders that don't measure well) and check the weight of the powder charge with the scale. If it's good, I dump it back in the case and put the case back in the tray. If it's off I dump the charge in the powder measure and then run another one into the case to compare with the light (to the other cases/charges).
Doing it my way makes me feel better about my reloads. Is it a waste of time? Not for me. It makes me more confident that my reloads will do what I expect them to do.
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I don't use case lube on pistol cases when using carbide dies. That's why I bought carbide dies.
I felt the same way... right up until I had a case gall and get stuck in a Redding sizing die. ;) Lesson learned.
I think this might be one of those situations where it's not a problem until it's a problem. I felt/heard the signs. Things were (I presume) heating up and expanding, and a few hundred rounds in, one stuck a little - the press resisted just a little and it made a little smacky (like chewing gum or taffy) sound when it released the case as the ram started to come down, and I didn't recognize it for what it was. A few strokes later, it stuck hard. I applied some extra force, and the case pulled out of the shell plate.
Started using case lube after that, and the difference in force needed to operate the press dropped significantly. So much smoother now. And I'm sure much less wear and tear on the cases.
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I just have a few books, here?s what I have found so far for Win231/HP38in the following books:
Lee modern reloading: 125gr jacketed 1.069 OAL 2.8-3.3gr
complete reloading manual for the 9mm luger: Win 231 Win FMJ 124gr 1.1609 max 4.2-4.5gr
HP38 125gr SIE FMJ 1.090 OAL 4.4-4.8gr
Reloading guide for pistols 125 gr sierra FMJ 1.090 OAL 4.4-4.8gr
Lyman doesn?t seem to have any data for this bullet.
That?s a lot of conflicting information with max loads varying from 3.3 to 4.8 depending on the source.
OAL is not an issue for me as I don?t own a CZ, yet, (I hope you don?t hold that against me :)),
? Loads will vary, across books due to many, many variables... powder lot, altitude of the test lab, barrel length of the test gun, etc, etc. Yes, you want to build a reloading book library, BUT only one book can be your go to primary source. I highly suggest you standardize on the Lyman manual.
? The Lyman #49 book lists a great load for W231 on p341. 125gr jacketed, 231 at 3.9 to 4.4gr, at an OAL of 1.075". There is no difference between 124gr and 125gr for your purposes. The main thing is that it's within 4 or 5gr and Jacketed (not plated or cast lead).
? Now you'll want to choose an OAL roughly between 1.125" and 1.145". Since the data was gathered at 1.075", you'll be able to load higher than 4.4gr, if say you chose a longer OAL like 1.135". The main thing to watch out for is the bullet velocity at Max Load, which is 1043fps. That velocity warns of the danger zone for W231/HP38 with jacketed 124gr bullets regardless of OAL. But, if you are simply loading target, competition, or plinking ammo, then you'll never get near Max Load anyway. So exactly where the Max Load has moved to is a moot point.
? Your previous error which cost you a barrel, was probably due to a double charge. That's the bad thing about very dense and very fast powders, such as TG. It takes so little that it's easy to place a double or triple charge inside the case, and then Bam! Very glad you weren't hurt or deterred from reloading.
When I'm king of the world, salesmen that recommend TG to first time reloaders will be shot at dawn !! ;D There are simply too many great powders out there that don't have half the baggage. Why risk it ? I'll get off my soap box now.
? The fact that you don't own a CZ yet, simply means you're still in training. ;) As per the Template give in the Stickies, we need to know more about your reloading equipment to help with your reloading process. As you probably figured out, process is everything in reloading.
All the best ! ;)
PS. How about putting your locale in your profile? A general area is good enough, like "East Texas".
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? Loads will vary, across books due to many, many variables... powder lot, altitude of the test lab, barrel length of the test gun, etc, etc. Yes, you want to build a reloading book library, BUT only one book can be your go to primary source. I highly suggest you standardize on the Lyman manual.
? The Lyman #49 book lists a great load for W231 on p341. 125gr jacketed, 231 at 3.9 to 4.4gr, at an OAL of 1.075". There is no difference between 124gr and 125gr for your purposes. The main thing is that it's within 4 or 5gr and Jacketed (not plated or cast lead).
? Now you'll want to choose an OAL roughly between 1.125" and 1.145". Since the data was gathered at 1.075", you'll be able to load higher than 4.4gr, if say you chose a longer OAL like 1.135". The main thing to watch out for is the bullet velocity at Max Load, which is 1043fps. That velocity warns of the danger zone for W231/HP38 with jacketed 124gr bullets regardless of OAL. But, if you are simply loading target, competition, or plinking ammo, then you'll never get near Max Load anyway. So exactly where the Max Load has moved to is a moot point.
? Your previous error which cost you a barrel, was probably due to a double charge. That's the bad thing about very dense and very fast powders, such as TG. It takes so little that it's easy to place a double or triple charge inside the case, and then Bam! Very glad you weren't hurt or deterred from reloading.
When I'm king of the world, salesmen that recommend TG to first time reloaders will be shot at dawn !! ;D There are simply too many great powders out there that don't have half the baggage. Why risk it ? I'll get off my soap box now.
? The fact that you don't own a CZ yet, simply means you're still in training. ;) As per the Template give in the Stickies, we need to know more about your reloading equipment to help with your reloading process. As you probably figured out, process is everything in reloading.
All the best ! ;)
PS. How about putting your locale in your profile? A general area is good enough, like "East Texas".
I realize I left out a crucial piece of information: The bullets I ordered is a RN. The one they call 9MM 124gr FMJ on their website. So I would assume the "The Lyman #49 book lists a great load for W231 on p341. 125gr jacketed, 231 at 3.9 to 4.4gr, at an OAL of 1.075""is for a hollow point and would not work for a RN, right?.
Firearm
? My CZ pistol/rifle model is: Not a CZ but Beretta 92FS
? The caliber of my CZ is: 9x19 Luger
? My CZ has the following changes: D hammer spring
? I use this CZ in the following ways: Shooting paper at the range 20-25 yards outdoors 7-15 yards indoors
? I want ammo accurate at: 7-25 yards
Components
? I've been reloading for months/years: Two month 900 rounds
? Fully describe the maker, weight, and type bullet: Berry 124gr RN
? Powder (brand name and load range): Titegroup 3.8gr
? Primer: Winchester SPP
? My Cartridge Over-All Length is: trying for 1.150 oal in reality it is between1.145-1.155
I started at 1.169 until I realized there was an oal stated in the data
? Or, if your issue is with Factory ammo, just plainly state what it is NA
Reloading Equipment
? Press brand and type: Lee Classic 4-Position Turret
? Dies: Lee 4-die set
? Scale: Frankford Arsenal D750 digital scale and Lee Perfect Powder Scale
? Powder Measure: Lee Auto-Drum
? Do you have access to a chronograph ? No
Other Info
? Exactly what is your load data and where did you get it ? Lee
? Where are you located ? Is your locale in your profile ? Northern California
Problem Area
? for now I am trying to get away from Titegroup and Berry's and I am looking for help in loading Precision Delta 124gr RN with HP38
I have to admit that after the few incidents I've encountered, I wondered if it was wise to continue reloading but I'm still here.
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Welcome to the group! Good questions and great details so we can help you out. I think the guys are pretty much right on with the advice they have given. Here are my 2 pennies.
Whenever setting up for a run, I setup the powder drop to the desired charge, and then pull off 10 cases right after they are charged. I dump the powder into the pan on a digital scale. You can see lighter and heaver powder drops as you do this confirmation process. If your goal powder drop is 3.3 gns for instance (just pulling that number out of the air - not for use or your load), you should see 33.0 gns (10 cases worth). If my drop is off by more than .3 or .4 gns, I dump it all in the powder cylinder and try it again. If I go through more than 3 of these cycles, I step back and see what might be affecting the charges. When running a pile, I check about every 20 rounds to confirm powder charge. Also stay on the lookout for stepped cases (lower volume on the inside of a case) if you pick up range brass. I also started with TG because you know I'm cheap and all, but saving a red cent or two over other powders that fill the case more is not worth the risk and the horror stories I've read about.
This may not apply in your case, but if loading on a single stage, I always visually confirm powder in the case immediately after dropping powder, and then immediately seat bullet. I feel better about that process than moving full cases here and there, inspecting, then back to bullet seating and ect.
I've had a couple of squibs in the beginning, but try to minimize the chances of that happening again.
Keep us up on how things work out for you.
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One thing about most powder measures and powder.
You'll dump some powder into the measure hopper. Observe/note the level in the hopper. As you adjust the measure to get the charge weight you're looking for you dump the powder back into the top of the hopper. When you're done making your adjustments and getting the charge weight you want - notice how the level in the hopper has dropped - even though it has the same amount of powder in it you originally dumped into it from the powder "can." The vibration causes it to settle/compact some in the hopper.
When I'm running my powder measure I try not to let the level in the hopper go below 1/2 full. When it gets down to 1/2 full I top it off from the jug. That gives the powder fresh from the jug time to settle/compact as you work your way through the powder in the bottom half of the hopper.
With "tiny" charges you load with some pistol powder you many not need to keep it topped off. For powders that use more powder per charge (slow burning pistol powders and rifle powders) you don't want to let the hopper get too low or you can add to metering issues till you get that new powder settled/compacted in the hopper.
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I realize I left out a crucial piece of information: The bullets I ordered is a RN. The one they call 9MM 124gr FMJ on their website. So I would assume the "The Lyman #49 book lists a great load for W231 on p341. 125gr jacketed, 231 at 3.9 to 4.4gr, at an OAL of 1.075""is for a hollow point and would not work for a RN, right?.
Nope. Reloading 101 here....
? The powder is accelerating WEIGHT. A) So the bullets must weigh about the same. In this case any data for 122gr to 126gr will work just great. B) If you cannot find something around 124gr, then use the next heaviest load, say for instance 130 or 135gr. (In this latter case you'll need to proceed more slowly, but it can be done safely.)
? Then, becasue the sliding friction is heavily involved in allowing the bullet to accelerate, the MATERIAL that touches the barrel has to be the same. So we only compare lead bullets to lead bullets, only compare plated bullets to plated bullets, and jacketed to jacketed. Now "jacketed bullets" go by many different names: ball, FMJ, JHP, fully enclosed, etc.
So using a published load for a 125gr JHP for your loading of a 124gr jacketed RN is going to give results so similar, you won't be able to tell until you get a chrono.
Every other detailed difference falls out of the equation becasue you're going to begin at the Starting Load and work your way slowly up, using what's called an incremental load or "ladder".
Follow all that ? It will become second nature after a few weeks.
Hope this helps. ;)
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Nope. Reloading 101 here....
? The powder is accelerating WEIGHT. A) So the bullets must weigh about the same. In this case any data for 122gr to 126gr will work just great. B) If you cannot find something around 124gr, then use the next heaviest load, say for instance 130 or 135gr. (In this latter case you'll need to proceed more slowly, but it can be done safely.)
? Then, becasue the sliding friction is heavily involved in allowing the bullet to accelerate, the MATERIAL that touches the barrel has to be the same. So we only compare lead bullets to lead bullets, only compare plated bullets to plated bullets, and jacketed to jacketed. Now "jacketed bullets" go by many different names: ball, FMJ, JHP, fully enclosed, etc.
So using a published load for a 125gr JHP for your loading of a 124gr jacketed RN is going to give results so similar, you won't be able to tell until you get a chrono.
Every other detailed difference falls out of the equation becasue you're going to begin at the Starting Load and work your way slowly up, using what's called an incremental load or "ladder".
Follow all that ? It will become second nature after a few weeks.
Hope this helps. ;)
Yes I understand. I was worried that the bullet length of a round nose and a hollow point not being the same might affect the seating depth and chamber pressure. But since you suggest an OAL roughly between 1.125" and 1.145 I guess it should make up for the difference. Is this right? I am also concerned that my oals with (Berrys 124 rn) vary between 1.145 and 1.155 when I am trying for 1.150 Is that typical?
When Making a ladder I will start at 10 rounds at 3.9gr, 10 rounds at 4.0, 10 at 4.1, etc.
[Mods shortened]
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I think I have figured out my squib issue, When I was making a ladder, I was disorganized and doing too many things at once, removing the shell from the press to weigh the powder using two different scales, sometimes having a load on each scale to try to go faster so it was easy to get mixed up.
You only listed one scale. Most reloaders want one really good balance beam scale made by Ohaus, such as a RCBS 505 or Dillon Eliminator. Then possibly an electronic or "digital" scale on standby to speed up long, tedious tasks like weighing bullets.
As with the manuals, you'll want one primary "go to" scale. And this scale you'll want to be a quality item so you can use it for 20 years. In that way when you dig out an old load you haven't used in 12 years, you can be sure you're accurately duplicating the load. And you'll generally want a balance beam scale as "primary" simply becasue electronic scales haven't proved to have long lives.
If you want to use your digital scale as your primary, then you MUST get a set of check weights that check the weight range of your powder loads. So for pistol loads you'll need a check weight in the 5gr range; for rifle loads a check weight in the 25gr range. A check weight in the 100gr range is absolutely useless if you're going to measure powder drops of 4.6gr. Follow ?
I am being much more methodical now.
And that's commendable. Crawl before you walk; walk before you run. In reloading, slow and methodical equals safe.
The use of W231 is a big step, becasue the "load window" is about 3x wider than TG. And, becasue of the more complete "case fill" with W231, getting a double load is nearly impossible. Secondly, wide variations are always a hallmark of the novice reloader. W231 is simply going to allow your powder weights to vary to a greater degree without the severe penalties (blown up barrels) that TG imposed.
The more you continue to reload, the more refined and consistent your process will become. In reloading, process is everything.
? One of the process segments you can work on today is measuring and dropping powder. You don't need to be reloading to work on your "powder skills". In fact it's best if you hone your powder skills BEFORE you start reloading.
Do this: Fill your powder measure with W231. Without changing any settings or making ANY adjustments, start dumping powder into a 9mm case.... then using your electronic scale (only becasue it's faster) weigh and record each dump. Do this 15-20 times.
What you will see is that the first 3-8 "drops" weren't very accurate. It's not until the powder shakes down to a consistent density that the "drops" become a consistent weight. From this you will learn NOT to use the first 10 drops from ANY powder measure. Each PM is different. You may learn yours is only accurate after 20, or 4. No one knows until you do this exercise.
All the best. ;)
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I was worried that the bullet length of a round nose and a hollow point not being the same might affect the seating depth and chamber pressure. But since you suggest an OAL roughly between 1.125" and 1.145 I guess it should make up for the difference. Is this right?
? We have found that bullets seated between 0.200 and 0.250" into the case tend to be more accurate. So if you are loading for accuracy (and who wouldn't be ?), you'll get a head start by simply starting at an OAL that renders that condition true.
? While we talk in terms of OAL, that's not what we really care about. What we want to know is the position of the base of the bullet. If you are swapping out bullets of the same weight and material (as per the thread above) and using the same load data, if you can keep the position of the bullet's base the same by modifying the OAL, then you will get nearly identical shooting results from both bullets.
? Yes, in some instances HP bullets are longer due to the missing lead in the core. But this is not always true. So one of the things you should be recording in your notebook for each new bullet you encounter is the bullet's LENGTH.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/27mtiewp5XkG9_kP5rnzWKBhtf79690gP4mYVl-MhLSw1SiKi6d63CNhyQU_c8ZIsc0MdgilB66EptaLauiSErf0jnHVEyyFQ8xRMr_s14uvPsAwyDizjMqa2d7o6g7n33YCepOehEuSusTfDMNh23xShTJXr1JJnCCcpczg8xvPYgomrqJzkdkwUKrKx2cQ6KUtqfle5nQgSesfyKTx1AXecwsh4pfgeJTt02bhCiUzEKjCq51sEB_N9USNGo2wVMn1hRII97d2qbFQPs0ICrH9P4xa5SHhUXw-nBwWMj-tQl22I8_7ymASaz0NwgHBshzx0_TW3Dq0NR_pU3_o3fwNJEoAPbxQYssTfbcCmMWMppeE9mw7DQU29GwASoxBqNuCQnIRrQ-UJp_mCrjYRVWt-q_UfFBuvX5NJaN2CPryD2Fs15h7tpAkrrX0VqbPVAgDjAXqEzYdCoz2mrjmNxEaK-9kbdapIIQYsoOPYhbToQCTm4YBXZwmqYtuzu_XQ_Bwa3TQqTaYsmnGXGsrlI0XKdLbUMefEIwdjBtZEvJh9VFAbXjQUfposvPvzSdx-XYk_ARRRsbYQ4d9Xlrd4DCloG67Hi-hsO2amFE=w960-h720-no)
? Do a search here for a thread. Member 1SOW did a huge spreadsheet at one time of bullet lengths just for the above purpose. This data should be in your reloading notebook just to assist you in such decisions.
? OAL is part science and part art. You should determine the Max OAL for your bullet in your barrel for every bullet. (See the thread in our Stickies.) Then you are free to use any OAL between Max OAL and the load data. So the OAL from the Lyman data was ~1.080". If your Max OAL pushes out to something like 1.152", then you can use anything between those 2 numbers... while also considering what was said above about bullet-to-case engagement. The cartoon below shows visually....
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tCzwcFjt5sOe0W-OgMwULiv3vy1EtoaDqLFvsGi6FpY6_7aTvYuiREmDFr5GWc5Qn-G_unwVCrm4MyYMqIgaHl06Tlim-8kosU-SGcrYrV6W4j6K_txujPVK4TQRX2rUjTCEh0v_8njf4dOdhRqFbcI_Euwj3bM9Dpic1KKYgxxqkPW6azgnFqt5PxTV6jFPZLXzLrW5hAkSuuKg2X8zg7cdfddeWqkzb059i5E_7DhvOGfxukPBZsD0467TlXIVxTP4P76WILbaAmFHYObmttGFgb-4OEHT3nKwmbmpcJIgh_oC-oNPMen076TFN5XurcSW-824gKb7qMGLCuO5SN3Byj6bntivyvf9gUAdFe81DgTdkqZaNVl1l6QyJcOqi0B5MfYbQ0jmGRqUcs1uo-zTppqjZJ54PJdbyHetIGLRX0iyw19KsfN1Yxgxcofq5yxnl38ITzNZ7KddmqLT8Z6mXotZGUW1o6jOBGHFZSSVWaMk9k71c_k4X17amQz3BC6Yqa5jQlV0CVTVZk1Mp2E8YXzGLknkhn6VD46ALMPqgks6AJkPAc0zHtchw6fYDMSpzykGFDYOMd3qGQfTJwmtHpKpz7HJdrpLRJ0=w967-h637-no)
I am also concerned that my OALs with (Berrys 124gr RN) vary between 1.145 and 1.155" when I am trying for 1.150". Is that typical?
Yes, novice reloaders don't pulling the op lever the exact same way every time, and so it's the OAL that suffers. You will quickly get over this as you quit worrying about incidental and start to focus on your technique. This usually disappears after 1000 rounds.
A better seating die that fits the bullet nose more closely helps. Lubing your empty cases on a lube pad really helps.
When Making a ladder I will start at 10 rounds at 3.9gr, 10 rounds at 4.0, 10 at 4.1, etc.
Here's a better way. Divide the total load range by 4 or 5. With TG you are forced to increment by steps of 0.1gr, but with W231 you'll see that increments of 0.2gr are much more feasible. (Remember, by loading longer than the Lyman load data, your new Max Load is probably in the range of 4.6 or 4.7gr.) Then load 10 of each of those.
Also, save yourself some work. Nothing good ever happens at Max Load, so there's no need to load at that incremental load.
See? Easy as pie. ;)
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Here's the bullet length thread....
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=62657.0
;)
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Also, save yourself some work. Nothing good ever happens at Max Load, so there's no need to load at that incremental load.
See? Easy as pie. ;)
Given my history with reloading, I'm not brave enough to go for the maximum load :).
Well, my bullets have arrived and it looks like I have my plan of action. Thanks for all your tips, I'll report soon.
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I've been loading for 5 years now and have only gone to max load on any one time for a rifle round. It was mostly to look for pressure signs. Now I never load to max load, just seems like a waste of time. From my experience, the most accurate rounds are not the hottest, they are somewhere in the middle of min/max. I'll start at min and go up .3 gns until 60-75% of max, then I stop and evaluate groups. I don't even attempt max loads. It's easier on the gun and brass too. Its an all around win IMO, the only thing you are not getting is terminal power(which doesn't matter for paper punching) and reduction on windage/elevation(which doesn't matter for pistol).
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This forum is the best reloading forum that is a gun brand forum I have ever seen!
the people here are very knowledgeable and very thorough. They will ask many questions and be
sure they have all the details to get you as accurate info as possible. I like this site a lot.
the use lube don't use lube question is one I find amusing. Lube on 9mm in carbide is not needed but will do no damage In my opinion but I have only loaded about 65,000 rounds in the past 5 or 6 years. I have tried it and the ease of loading is not noticeable to me at all. But if you want to do it or if you do awesome, I color every primer I put in for quick referencing load data. Totally unnecessary but I do it every time
IE green Primer is my HP 38 - Precision Delta RN load with Federal primers at 1.109 OAL - Red primer is Vit320 PD JHP Fed Primers 1.109 OAL...??.do I need to do that, nope does it help? I think so, does it take time to transfer all Fed primers into a Winchester tray so I can color every one with a sharpie? yes it does. Does it make me happy? Unbelievably so!!!!
From what I have read here you are making a good decision to go to PD 124 RN and push them out with HP-38 Like everyone has said it is pretty hard to load these wrong, if you are careful. My advice to you now is
- find a recipe that works for you
- load it as much and as you can and make as many as you can to get GREAT at that recipe
- it will give you confidence and you will enjoy shooting
- you don't have to have variety, you have to be good at it
- then maybe try another load
- Keep good accurate notes and label your boxes for referencing
- have some components on hand so if you are loading and it is going good you can keep going
- take the tips about your scales and weighing the powder you have gotten here seriously. There is wisdom in this thread.
- Be safe - have fun - be safe
RCG
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- Keep good accurate notes and label your boxes for referencing
I use an 8.5 x11 lab notebook or a "single subject" spiral bound notebook.
To me, what changes a load the most is the bullet. So I dedicate an entire new (right side) page to each bullet. The first thing I record is all the bullet dimensions. Then I do our "push test" and find the Max OAL for that bullet in my barrel. Then I decide on my OAL and look at the resulting case engagement ("seating depth"). Once I get all that worked out I never change the OAL again, unless the feeding is funky or something like that.
Then under that I start recording loads and load results. I may use 5 or 6 different powders over the course of the next several years. If I run out of room, I just carry on over on the left hand page.
I try to segregate this way and have a notebook for pistol, another for revolver, and a third book for rifle loads. I know I'll have more than one notebook filled in a very short time. In this way new pistol cartridges (like 38 Super or 380Auto) go right in the same book with 9x19 Luger. Lots of pistol cartridges are very similar (38 Super is simply a 9x19 on steroids and uses the same bullets and powders) so having those in the same book helps make comparisons much easier. Same thing goes for 40S&W and 10mmAuto. And the same again with 38Spcl and 357Mag. Best to save room. Notebooks are cheap.
;)
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I use Excel spreadsheets. One per caliber. Separate work-pages per powder and one for favorites. This way I can group and re-position/group/combine the data as it updates. Columns include the OAL, charge weight, Chrono data, group size on the different distances, comments and published load data notes with reference where it came from. Rows with better/best loads color highlighted. Laptop is seating right in the garage on the desk.
Easy to find and all necessary information at glance.
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I worked up one ladder which was inconclusive: I wasn't sure if the powder loads were consistent and the targets were set too far.
So I started all over again. I took my time and made 20 of each at 4.0gr, 4.2gr, 4.3gr and 4.4gr and measured each at least twice, once on the digital scale and once on the Lee Perfect Powder Scale. I decided the mechanical scale was the one to be trusted, the electronic scale often read higher numbers (for example 4.3 -Frankford digital for 4.2 -Lee beam scale, I guess it's safer that way).
Then I measured each one (with a dial calliper, I really like it. The previous one was electronic and not very consistent) and found an average of 1.144 Oal with one as low as 1.138 and one as high as 1.150, I tried running it through the seating dye again but it would just stay at 1.150.
I took it all indoors where they have kind of targets you can move forward and backward with the switch of a button. I shot at 10 yards and I changed or patched targets every 10 rounds so I have a picture for every rung of the ladder.
Everything went well, cycled well, no flattened primers, I'm not the best shot, I tend to shoot left and low but I'm thinking maybe 4.2 and 4.3 gr have the best groups.
I don't know if I should include a picture, but...
(https://i.imgur.com/4MYBLTM.png)
https://imgur.com/a/0UF0Lfp
Caliber: [9x19 Luger]
Bullets: [Precision Delta 124gr FMJ]
Brass: [Mixed]
Powder: [HP38]
Max Velocity: Don't know
Primer: [FWinchester]
OAL: [1.145"]
Pistol: [Beretta 92FS]
Qty: [10 rounds each, slow fired]
Weather: [80 indoors]
Chrono: [none]
Load
4.0gr 4.2 4.3 4.4
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Your bullseye is too big. That would be a great target for 20-30 yds. With a black section that large your eye can't find a distinct place to aim. For 10yds try a 2" black circle.
4.3gr is where I ended up too.
;)
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Your bullseye is too big. That would be a great target for 20-30 yds. With a black section that large your eye can't find a distinct pace to aim. For 10yds try a 2" black circle.
4.3gr is where I ended up too.
;)
Interesting, I will try a smaller one
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It's not you. Simply the way the human eye works.
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Low left is typically a flinch.
There are a thousand remedies. I'd recommend you do four things:
1-- don't try to time the trigger pull with the sights lining up with the bullseye; instead, try to minimize sight movement, keep the center of the sight drift range on the bullseye, then steadily increase the squeeze until the trigger breaks where it may
2-- Follow through - - pull the trigger until it won't pull any further
3-- Watch the YouTube video "Bob Vogel on Grip" and implement
4-- practice, a lot, dry-firing, with a snap cap
All those steps are important, but I have helped novice shooters getting instruction from friends (often boyfriends) cut their group size to one quarter of what it was with an adjustment to proper grip alone. And I've had those friends and boyfriends watch groups sizes shrink, stunned, and say "Um... can you explain that again and look at my grip? " ;)
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Your bullseye is too big. That would be a great target for 20-30 yds. With a black section that large your eye can't find a distinct place to aim. For 10yds try a 2" black circle.
4.3gr is where I ended up too.
;)
So I made another 50 rounds of 4.2gr and 50 rounds of 4.3gr, put up the 2" targets I usually use with my 10/22 and was pleasantly surprised at how much more accurate my shots were. And this time there is no doubt, 4.3gr shoots a lot better.
Thanks to all.
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Another satisfied customer.
;D
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Earlier I mentioned that I had a small Kaboom where the barrel did not explode but swelled up, a ringing of the barrel as noyli said, also I forgot to mention that the primer blew out of its pocket. I went back and looked at my load data for this event and I think I know what went wrong:
I was misinformed :o and used the wrong recipe from Lyman,
With Bear Creek moly 147gr.,
I used the data for 147gr. TMJ Titegroup 3.2-3.6, 1.115OAL (Rang the barrel and blew Primer at 3.2gr.)
I should have used 147gr #2 alloy. Titegroup 2.5-2.8, 1.058 OAL
Now I know better, Titegroup and 147 gr lead was a bad idea for a beginner, not to mention the wrong recipe.
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I'd think more likely you cleared a squib if you impregnated the barrel. I've used 3.4gr of TG with a variety of 147gr coated lead bullets and know plenty who use more. The reason those charges in the Lyman book are so low is because that OAL is crazy short for a 147gr bullet.
You didn't get an overpressure kaboom from 3.2gr of Titegroup at any reasonable OAL.
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I'd think more likely you cleared a squib if you impregnated the barrel. I've used 3.4gr of TG with a variety of 147gr coated lead bullets and know plenty who use more. The reason those charges in the Lyman book are so low is because that OAL is crazy short for a 147gr bullet.
You didn't get an overpressure kaboom from 3.2gr of Titegroup at any reasonable OAL.
And I thought I had it all figured out :-\
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And I thought I had it all figured out :-\
You DO have it figured out. You fired into a squibbed bullet. ;)
Noylj called it in the 3rd post -- a pregnant barrel is the result of firing into a barrel obstruction. And given that you'd already had squib problems, it shouldn't be too hard to swallow.
If you had a barrel obstruction right in front of the chamber, so that the bullet you fired had nowhere to go -- KABOOM -- barrel comes apart.
But if the obstruction is a few inches into the barrel, you're looking at a "pressure chamber" a few times larger in volume, so when the pressure spikes, it won't spike as high. Don't get me wrong, it will still spike dangerously high and given the right combination of variables, still get high enough to tear the barrel apart. But there is also the chance that the two bullets will have enough time to clear the muzzle and relieve the pressure at the point where the barrel is starting to balloon under pressure, but hasn't broken apart yet.
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But if the obstruction is a few inches into the barrel, you're looking at a "pressure chamber" a few times larger in volume, so when the pressure spikes, it won't spike as high. Don't get me wrong, it will still spike dangerously high and given the right combination of variables, still get high enough to tear the barrel apart. But there is also the chance that the two bullets will have enough time to clear the muzzle and relieve the pressure at the point where the barrel is starting to balloon under pressure, but hasn't broken apart yet.
ID.... sounds to me like you're a little TOO familiar with this issue ! O0
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It's really good to have ID's experiences to draw on. ;)
My (2) no-powder squibs never cleared the chamber enough to allow the next round to feed. The press light I made, deprives me from gaining more squib experience. :-\
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ID.... sounds to me like you're a little TOO familiar with this issue ! O0
Haha :)
The closest I've gotten to one is being there for a test-firing AFTER a friend had done it to his revolver. It had happened his previous time out, shooting handloads with those half-jacket bullets. His guess was that the lead had outrun the jacket and left the jacket in the barrel, which apparently happens with that type of bullet. Anyway, he wanted to see what would happen if he fired it with the barrel like that, and I'm not that brave, so... "Um... I going to wait over here by my car." It shot not great, but much better than I expected. ;)
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Pistolete -
Now take that 4.3gr load and compare that target to targets of 1.140" and 1.130" OALs just to see if more case engagement improves anything.
BTW.... I gotta know. Does the pronunciation of your screen name rhyme with "Chevrolet" ?? ;D
All the best.
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Pistolete -
Now take that 4.3gr load and compare that target to targets of 1.140" and 1.130" OALs just to see if more case engagement improves anything.
BTW.... I gotta know. Does the pronunciation of your screen name rhyme with "Chevrolet" ?? ;D
All the best.
I was wondering if I should try shorter OALs. I was concerned that my OALs were too inconsistent to try shorter but I am improving and staying usually within less than.005, plus or minus of 1.145 Should I start at 4.1gr and up from there just to be safe?
Yes Pistolet rhymes with Chevrolet, pistol in French, my first language.
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High variations in OAL are a ever-present nubie trait. They will soon go away when your arm gets the hang of pulling the op lever with the exact same speed/ force/ throw every time. Case lube will really do a lot to help make consistent pulls easier.
As per reply #44, I think you might see some slight accuracy improvement with a shorter OAL. Case engagement is a fairly important measurement. While you might not measure your OALs on the 300 rounds you take to a weekend competition (trusting them to be within an appropriate range), you'll want to double check the OALs on the 15 or so cartridges you take for the velocity tests. They all need to be "on the money".
;)
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I have been following this thread as a new reloader, lots of great additional info to chew on. I was curious if correcting an OAL after crimping is advisable? I would think not, but not sure. My OALs have a tendency to creep up sometimes up to .005 - .006 longer.
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I have been following this thread as a new reloader, lots of great additional info to chew on. I was curious if correcting an OAL after crimping is advisable? I would think not, but not sure. My OALs have a tendency to creep up sometimes up to .005 - .006 longer.
A taper crimp shouldn't mark the bullet, so putting them back through the seating die should do no harm/damage.
I'm not sure how that would work on a progressive press.
That said, you're well within the .010-.015 allowance for OAL drift, so why bother?
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I have been following this thread as a new reloader, lots of great additional info to chew on. I was curious if correcting an OAL after crimping is advisable? I would think not, but not sure. My OALs have a tendency to creep up sometimes up to .005 - .006 longer.
That's funny, I've also been following your thread. And I also have a question , in the following sentence from Wobbly: If your SDs stay that low you'll see some definitive results as to accuracy, what does SD mean?
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
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I have read through this thread with interest. One thing I have not seen addressed is cleaning. "I do clean my cases in plenty of dishwater and rinse a lot. should I still use lube?"
My suspicious mind is thinking about a trapped drop of water in a couple of cases causing a squib. Primer going off but powder not. Just putting the cases out in the sun for a while may not be adequate.
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Standard Deviation (SD) and Extreme Spread (ES) are two statistics commonly listed with chronograph results. Extreme spread is the difference between the fastest and slowest bullet. Standard deviation is a more complicated formula and represents how spread out all the shots are from the average.
So let's say you've shot 10 rounds over a chrono:
1050,1050,1050,1050,1050,1070,1070,1070,1070,1070
That's an ES of 20 and an SD of about 10.5
1050,1050,1050,1050,1050,1050,1050,1050,1050,1070
That's an ES of 20 and an SD of 6.3
So two different strings with the same ES can have different SD. The second string of 10 is a beautifully consistent string with one bad round, thus the lower SD.
Standard deviation largely reveals how consistently you are operating the press and how good you are at setting up your chrono. Basically, it shows how well/consistently you're using your gear, and consistency in operating your gear is one of the keys to producing accurate ammo.
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I have read through this thread with interest. One thing I have not seen addressed is cleaning. "I do clean my cases in plenty of dishwater and rinse a lot. should I still use lube?"
My suspicious mind is thinking about a trapped drop of water in a couple of cases causing a squib. Primer going off but powder not. Just putting the cases out in the sun for a while may not be adequate.
You might be right. I have seen moisture trapped in a case with a smaller case inside it, like a .45 with a 9mm or a 9mm with a .22. That being said they get pretty hot in the sun on a dark cookie sheet to where I can barely touch them. But it's a lot of work and I'm planning to spend the big bucks in a tumbler one of these days.
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If you go tumbler, I'd suggest a wet tumbler. Unless its match grade rifle ammo, I just hot wash mine with no SS media for about 30/45 mins. Then dry off and let air dry for a couple days in the hot garage. I also have been known to bake them in the garage oven @ 200 for an hour if I want to load them right then, or leave them on the dash of my car during a hot day. Still use lube even on pistol cases with carbide dies, just makes the press run smoother.
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I use the "rock tumbler" from Harbor Freight, got it on sale for $45, sometimes it goes cheaper. I got the one that has 2 tumbler containers and can effectively clean around 150 per container. I only run for 25 mins and they get clean enough to inspect. So can crank out 300 in 25 min plus setup time. When done I simply put them on a cookie sheet and bake at 170 deg for 20 min. Can load them as soon as they cool.
I have processed around 2,000 cases this way with great results. Yes, I use SS media but may try running it without SS to save some time.
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I have been following this thread as a new reloader, lots of great additional info to chew on. I was curious if correcting an OAL after crimping is advisable? I would think not, but not sure. My OALs have a tendency to creep up sometimes up to .005 - .006 longer.
Unlike single-stage presses or the Lee "turret" series, progressive presses will typically make the first 1 to 4 cartridges off the platen a bit longer than the rest. This is usually attributed to unequal loading of the ram. Once the platen has a case in every position, the forces inside the dies are more equal and the OALs become very consistent.
So at the start of every run, I grab the first 3 finished cartridges off my progressive and run them back through the Seating and Crimp Dies as the last cartridges. You can do this because the bullet is merely being seated slightly deeper. The second trip through the TC die does very little, if anything.
You are allowed to make this move because auto pistol bullets are held in place by the neck tension of the case.... Which existed in the smaller case mouth diameter well before the bullet was ever installed. So pushing the bullet deeper is a non-event.
So again, the type press you use can effect the nature of the question. That's why it's best to ask these questions within your own thread.
;)
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...
So at the start of every run, I grab the first 3 finished cartridges off my progressive and run them back through the Seating and Crimp Dies as the last cartridges.
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For my progressive press (HDY LnL) I keep a dummy round (case and bullet, no primer and powder) near by and before seating the first bullet, I put this dummy round in the crimp station position. Since I resize and deprime separately before tumbling, this allow for more consistent OAL from the round one. The same dummy reused many times. When I stop the batch with intention to continue the next day or later the same day, I leave last few rounds on the press for the same smooth batch to batch transition. My shell plate shimmed and doesn't flex much, but still I am happy to read satisfying numbers on the calipers while spot checking.
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That's another way. Any method that fills every slot of the shellplate will equalize the loads and deliver more consistent OALs.
;)
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? The fact that you don't own a CZ yet, simply means you're still in training. ;)
Someone offered to let me try his CZ75B, Cajunized, last weekend. I loved it! I'm going to have to sell a couple of guns before I can get one, to keep my wife happy.
[Mods fixed quote]