The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => General Discussion => Topic started by: PappaWheelie on August 14, 2018, 09:53:28 AM
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Lucas Gun Oil has nearly the extreme pressure lubricity of Amsoil Severe Gear, with added bonus of handy dispenser bottle and firearm protection additives that Severe Gear likely lacks. Weapon Shield, FP-10, CUDALUBE, and (especially) Amsoil Firearm Lubricant are "...weighed in the balance and found wanting."
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.msg23467#msg23467
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I went by Lowes to day to pick up a couple things. As I was walking out I saw small bottle of oil for the air powered tools. I grabbed one for my new air nailer (putting up baseboard/quarter round, etc. in an upstairs bedroom/hallway).
Anyway I got to wondering how that stuff wold be for gun oil.
It has to lube the piston/walls under pressure and stay on the piston/walls for a good while. You put a couple/three drops in the inlet of the nailer every day and run it all day. That oil has got to be good at staying where you put it and good at lubing the moving parts or the air guns would wear out prety quickly. Anyone ever use it on a gun?
It's not cheap, almost $5 for little 3 or 4 oz. bottle. Just curious.
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I followed your threads. Very interesting. You must be the Forums lurking tribologist. :) Your methods seem pretty legitimate for comparison.
Have you checked your method with something like Mobile One that has some published data out there (I've seen 0.09 to 0.12 out there for 15w-50)?
I used Mobile One oil and axle grease for years but since have gone to Lubriplate SFL-0 due to my eczema/cracking hands.
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I followed your threads. Very interesting. You must be the Forums lurking tribologist. :) Your methods seem pretty legitimate for comparison.
Have you checked your method with something like Mobile One that has some published data out there (I've seen 0.09 to 0.12 out there for 15w-50)?
I used Mobile One oil and axle grease for years but since have gone to Lubriplate SFL-0 due to my eczema/cracking hands.
Hi huskerlrrp, see the latest update which includes an intensive duty Mobil 1 product. I'll check out Lubriplate SFL-0.
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.msg23475#msg23475
What you call "your method" was specifically intended to compare the "Extreme Pressure" (EP) characteristics of gun lubes, hence the higher coefficients.
Here's related text I sent to an interested party:
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Friction coefficient is just the ratio of the horizontal (fish scale-measured) sliding force to so-called "normal" (i.e., perpendicular) force, in this case the 20 lbs gravitational force pushing down on (so shared by) the nearly "point contact" balls.
The average of the breakaway sliding forces (say the 3.00 lbs of Weapon Shield) divided by the 20 lb. normal force yields the 0.15 friction coefficient.
Putting so much weight on so little support area is what makes for so-called "extreme pressure."
The theoretical "point contact" of perfectly rigid or hard materials is in reality "small area contact" because of the elasticity (think rubber parts) of the materials in the real world where there is no such thing as a rigid body.
Like a huge water balloon resting on a trampoline, the "footprint" areas are larger than single points. The steel plate and the balls both deform elastically, and to some extent "plastically" or permanently in the case of the mild steel platform plate.
If the contact area were to be substantially larger, like plate on plate, or even cylinder on plate, it wouldn't be such an "extreme pressure" test and the friction coefficients would be much lower.
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The above "cylinder on plate" geometry probably best represents the worst of firearm application, i.e., line contact, but the "point contact" of 3-balls with a support surface is both more severe and more consistent in terms of geometry: no need to deal with parallelism between cylinder(s) and plate.
Out of curiosity I'm motivated to get some Valvoline Full Synthetic for comparison: it's pretty impressive for Platinum Plus to be so comparable at such viscosity disadvantage!
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Thanks for the explanation. It looks like you are getting into some contact mechanics then. That gets really complicated, really fast.
I can send you some of the Lubriplate grease, if you like. I have no idea if it's empirically any good (just works).
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Thanks for the explanation. It looks like you are getting into some contact mechanics then. That gets really complicated, really fast.
I can send you some of the Lubriplate grease, if you like. I have no idea if it's empirically any good (just works).
Send me a PM, huskerlrrp; I'll happily test it.
Below is a continuation of posts at czforum.com http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.msg23292#msg23292 in that some glitch keeps it from posting at this time:
The sample of "Moly Cote" arrived from WCS labeled Moly "G" which I was unable to locate on the web except for numerous Chinese language links. Upon query, he indicated believing it to be an old Moly Coat Corporation product.
I've found this currently-available product, btw, which is said to be 65% Moly (Molybdenum disulfide):
https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-234227-LOC51048-Anti-Seize-Compound/dp/B001HWBSJW?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_3
The sample as received was essentially solid, i.e. a paste so free from vehicle that it flaked upon handling. I "thinned" it with Amsoil Severe Gear to give it the fluidity needed to not "run dry" immediately under my "balls only" (dry plate) lube application protocol. I actually tested two different "dilution" rates; enough Severe Gear to convert the solid paste to a barely-fluid paste, and then (after having added Severe Gear to a fairly "solid" sample of Anti-Sieze to obtain reasonable fluidity), additional Severe Gear to obtain a similar level of fluidity (such that at the end of the test the lube hadn't yet "dried out" from the contact area). The Severe Gear detracted from the lubricity in both cases, as a molecular physicist might deem an obvious result of diluting a lower coefficient of friction medium with a higher one. At any rate, the tests prove Moly to be superior to Anti-Sieze for EP lubricity under these (arbitrarily) severe test conditions.
By way of filling in the blanks, for those who use automotive lubes for gun lube, and for personal curiosity, I wanted to test the aforementioned Valvoline Full Synthetic https://drive.google.com/open?id=1b9MuJOGgot5-AlZP0XBcUWsR-hsoAIPx which I had abandoned in my small town for lack of Quick Lube availability after seeing online information that the newest-to-market full synthetic (Pennzoil Platinum Plus) had actually eclipsed the latter. I bought a quart at O?Reilly Auto Parts for $9.99, a substantial savings vs. the others. Surprisingly, it not only blew away Mobil 1 but also Platinum Plus under extreme pressure. I?m switching trusty auto back to Valvoline Full Synthetic next oil change, whatever it takes.
I was curious about the racing lube that had served so well historically, namely Castor Oil ("bean oil"), an extract from the beans of the miraculous overnight plant by which the prophet Jonah was taught, also known as Palma Cristi or "Palm of Christ:" I still had a squirt bottle of Castrol R that I'd used back in the '70's for motorcycle race engine assembly lube still on hand, albeit having turned from clear to chocolate brown over the years. I?d found recent utility as a sway bar bushing lube (after having created glass-hard wear-proof ?polished? journal sections via Por-15), in light of its ?race gun secret? status amongst rubber band-powered model airplane enthusiasts as a near zero weight turbocharger. I subjected it to the same 3-ball EP test and was surprised to see it fare so well, especially for its age and obvious degradation!
Here are the "same methodology" results:
LUBE Average Load, lbs. Coefficient of friction
Moly ?G? w/ Amsoil Severe Gear 2.00 0.10
Valvoline Full Synthetic 5W-30 3.18 0.16
Castrol R (WELL aged) 2.93 0.15
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I went by Lowes to day to pick up a couple things. As I was walking out I saw small bottle of oil for the air powered tools. I grabbed one for my new air nailer (putting up baseboard/quarter round, etc. in an upstairs bedroom/hallway).
Anyway I got to wondering how that stuff wold be for gun oil.
It has to lube the piston/walls under pressure and stay on the piston/walls for a good while. You put a couple/three drops in the inlet of the nailer every day and run it all day. That oil has got to be good at staying where you put it and good at lubing the moving parts or the air guns would wear out prety quickly. Anyone ever use it on a gun?
It's not cheap, almost $5 for little 3 or 4 oz. bottle. Just curious.
I'll look for my bottle, M1A4ME, no doubt still in a box since last move...
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Here's a table summarizing the ranked-by-coefficient extreme pressure friction results thus far:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oRyYIk90VIokCbcCbJYBfasO6b23UEz_
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Curiosity got the best of me in light of Valvoline Full Synthetic 5W-30's excellent EP performance if Amsoil Signature 5W-30
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NLRmJtg_dD5UmwfrPUZ5d-cI8MYdUg0C
would "hold its own" with real data. The price premium ($12.69 Auto Value vs. Valvoline's $9.99 O'Reilly Auto Parts) would lead one to hope so! Anyway, fwimbw to both gun enthusiasts and auto enthusiasts/conservatives, here's a new table. Excel's ranking ignores the 2-place round-off.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1z_WeYjKuWjA-vmAT0myB1dg_ciJ4QOwA
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The Loctite LB 8012 Moly Paste product mentioned in the above August 20 post arrived and I tested it. Wow.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Fij0edYt49LetBWhRie7XgXWt8fGfpUZ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gsYkEiYMokvSxT6eOyeePhI24DWMym_m
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Fgz1oGqKW9NAo4JOf3uFZz6c4ZlFAnfC
The 1.50 lb load is a slight round up, so the 0.07 coefficient is a round down but hey, who's quibbling when so big an improvement in your SA trigger pull is on the shelf so relatively "cheap" for a lifetime supply you can pass on to your kids.
08/28/2018 UPDATE:
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.msg23509#msg23509
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Forest Lucas lived 30 miles from me, he is related to my next door neighbor. He started as a truck driver that made up an oil additive and cooked it in his KITCHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He sold this homemade crap at truck stops now is worth millions.
I wouldn't walk away from Lucas products, I would RUN.
Check out Super QCG. 100%
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Forest Lucas lived 30 miles from me, he is related to my next door neighbor. He started as a truck driver that made up an oil additive and cooked it in his KITCHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He sold this homemade crap at truck stops now is worth millions.
I wouldn't walk away from Lucas products, I would RUN.
Check out Super QCG. 100%
Looking at data, I'm not sure why you're dissing Lucas products. Explain?
PM me if you'd like to send a sample of Super QCG for comparison testing.
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I can send you some of the Lubriplate grease, if you like. I have no idea if it's empirically any good (just works).
Send me a PM, huskerlrrp; I'll happily test it.
Mystery package arrived yesterday; turned out to be Lubriplate SFL-0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=11ngktP6gG6N7bHMAhUXh5LPSPYfXwF0o
and Break Free CLP
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RqRk4QsuQ6mP05e61BqqT2ufNqNbCGVn
from huskerlrrp (above images captured from the web).
Both tested as very good;
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12B-jLPQ8xeqUXtbKmoLbTXak3iHjy7Sw
-and it occurred to me that the Break Free CLP is probably thinned with a vehicle such that it would eventually dry as the "P" in "CLP," and in so doing might actually develop greater EP friction reduction. I'll set up the friction sled with pre-lubed skid bands to run on, and let the Break Free dry for a "dry" retest. Stay tuned, huskerlrrp.
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Following along!
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I can send you some of the Lubriplate grease, if you like. I have no idea if it's empirically any good (just works).
Send me a PM, huskerlrrp; I'll happily test it.
Mystery package arrived yesterday; turned out to be Lubriplate SFL-0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=11ngktP6gG6N7bHMAhUXh5LPSPYfXwF0o
and Break Free CLP
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RqRk4QsuQ6mP05e61BqqT2ufNqNbCGVn
from huskerlrrp (above images captured from the web).
Both tested as very good;
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12B-jLPQ8xeqUXtbKmoLbTXak3iHjy7Sw
-and it occurred to me that the Break Free CLP is probably thinned with a vehicle such that it would eventually dry as the "P" in "CLP," and in so doing might actually develop greater EP friction reduction. I'll set up the friction sled with pre-lubed skid bands to run on, and let the Break Free dry for a "dry" retest. Stay tuned, huskerlrrp.
Excellent, your results are much faster than my shipping. In my defense there were a few weeks of French and German drinking, I mean work.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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"In my defense there were a few weeks of French and German drinking, I mean work"
Here's to ya, huskerlrrp, Cheers!
For the time being, CZ Forum Folk, my offer to huskerlrrp is open to anyone who'd like to send me a small sample of their favorite world-beater gun lube for EP friction coefficient testing. I apply the lube to the 3 ball bearings using a thoroughly-soaked "Q-tip" type gun cleaning swab, so just a dab (or ~0.1cc) is needed. Just send me a PM for shipping address, and figure out how to send a well-sealed quantity with correct/accurate labeling so it can be properly represented.
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Break Free CLP (dry) now tops the heap of "oily" (non-grease-type) lubes thus far tested on my homegrown 20 lbf on (3) 3/8" ball bearings Extreme Pressure friction test.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZmJsIg9hxDvXQHvzIW97w8SwOCx94HaF
Thanks a lot, huskerlrrp: now I've gotta go back and do "after drying" retests of other contenders like Lucas Gun Lube!
Stay tuned...
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The pleasure is mine, thanks for doing this...besides CLP practically runs through my veins from contact exposure over 20 years ago. O0
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I?ve had some pure moly powder I ordered a few years ago sitting in my bin of lube and cleaning supplies. I?ve mixed it with other lubes in small amounts. Science supports moly but whatever you mix it with needs to be good as well. So I ordered some of the Amsoil sever gear.... I mixed it with some moly so it created a paste.
I have moly grease from CGW and this is a different viscosity. It really is like a super slick paste. I cleaned a few of my pistols as tried it out. I only use a drop on a toothpick and that spreads on most of a barrel where it contacts the slide. I don?t have any way to measure the effect, but it is freaking fantastic! It?s like ball bearings. Very nice like the CGW moly grease, but not as viscous or thick. It helped smooth out my actions as well.
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I?ve had some pure moly powder I ordered a few years ago sitting in my bin of lube and cleaning supplies. I?ve mixed it with other lubes in small amounts. Science supports moly but whatever you mix it with needs to be good as well. So I ordered some of the Amsoil sever gear.... I mixed it with some moly so it created a paste.
I have moly grease from CGW and this is a different viscosity. It really is like a super slick paste. I cleaned a few of my pistols as tried it out. I only use a drop on a toothpick and that spreads on most of a barrel where it contacts the slide. I don?t have any way to measure the effect, but it is freaking fantastic! It?s like ball bearings. Very nice like the CGW moly grease, but not as viscous or thick. It helped smooth out my actions as well.
Be happy to mix a bit of your moly powder with Severe Gear and run the test if you'd like to PM and send me a bit, Scarlett. Or send me a small sample of your optimized recipe of the two.
Meanwhile, the improvement from wet to dry of Break Free CLP motivated a retest of Lucas Gun Oil to see if the evaporation of vehicle might similarly improve its EP friction performance. The Break Free CLP had actually dried, to a "P" state but the Lucas Gun Oil didn't. The best you could say is that it could be rubbed "nearly" dry. Undaunted, I ran the test anyhoo and Lo- a new non-greasy champ, albeit not by a lot.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1F3D865fKLe87GLkanA49uq0vuzTlB9vV
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https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VvttehQ1nxgEQFerSikWK7Iunb1hcofJ
EEZOX improves with drying, from CoF 0.17 to 0.16.
Amsoil Severe Gear (like Lucas Gun Oil), doesn't really dry, but can be wiped to near-dry, in which state (against bone-dry ball bearings at start of test in this case because one became dislodged and had to be cleaned to re-Superglue) its CoF lost a bit of ground from 0.13 (wet) to 0.14 ("dry").
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UPDATE 6/10/2019:
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.msg24113#msg24113
Amsoil Dominator 15W-50 easily bests their V-Twin 15W-50 offering for Extreme Pressure Coefficient of Friction.
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Motorcycle oils typically need to be wet clutch compatible, and thus are free of friction reducing agents or any EP compounds that can cause clutch slippage, it relies mainly on hydrodynamic lubrication to do its job, hence the high viscosity
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Motorcycle oils typically need to be wet clutch compatible, and thus are free of friction reducing agents or any EP compounds that can cause clutch slippage, it relies mainly on hydrodynamic lubrication to do its job, hence the high viscosity
I hear ya Hemiscorpius lepturus, but a motorcycle's wet clutch is the farthest thing from extreme pressure! Spring pressure is carried by lots of friction pad area. But you seemingly agree with my hypothesis that V-Twin oil is seemingly targeted to Heavy Duty road bikes of Milwaukee origin. Dominator is also targeted for wet clutch bikes, however, where again, EP is incurred in many locations BUT the clutch, so I now question my hypothesis, especially in that (seemingly, on further reflection) these big Heavy Duty designs run separate primary drive lube, unlike many/most(?) "racing" platforms that start out as street bikes, having primary drive and clutch not isolated from gearbox, etc.
Whatever, I've topped up my SR500G with ~1/3 qt as of last night, and will be the Guinea pig for straight Dominator 15W-50 as of next oil change. Not that such a placid cruiser is a tough test...
UPDATE: ...and re. "hydrodynamic lubrication," isn't this term related to plain bearings, and don't the iconic Heavy Duty machines in question feature roller bearing / anti-friction bearing bottom ends (with Siamese or so-called "split rods" sharing common plane)?
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Update, Amsoil Z-Rod 20W-50, Amsoil ATF Signature Series
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.msg24345#msg24345
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Update, G96 Synthetic CLP Gun Oil:
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.msg24394#msg24394
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Thank you for doing these tests and posting the info for us. Very interesting stuff, and alot of work I'm sure.
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Thank you for doing these tests and posting the info for us. Very interesting stuff, and alot of work I'm sure.
It has been a pleasure, Dynowhite, thanks for the recognition.
Here's an update on G96 Synthetic CLP (dry); went backwards, opposite of Break Free CLP. Cheers again, huskerlrrp!
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.msg24394#msg24394