The Original CZ Forum

GENERAL => Tactics and Competition => Topic started by: dbarn on October 03, 2018, 01:44:52 PM

Title: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: dbarn on October 03, 2018, 01:44:52 PM
Really curious as to how many gamers use buffers in their CZs and what benefit do you gain?

It seems that any factory pistols that can be considered as competition pistols are now coming from CZ with buffers installed to include Shadow 2 and Shadow SP-01 Orange.

My own experience has been there seems to be less muzzle flip in the Shadow Orange with the buffer installed on a metal guide rod vs a regular Shadow Polymer Guide Rod (no buffer).

Not much difference either way when static shooting, but appears to make a difference with rapid fire, double taps, and moving or dynamic shooting. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: IDescribe on October 06, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
My own experience has been there seems to be less muzzle flip in the Shadow Orange with the buffer installed on a metal guide rod vs a regular Shadow Polymer Guide Rod (no buffer).

The difference there isn't just buffer vs no buffer.  It's also metal vs polymer guide rod, and simply having the extra weight of the metal guide rod out front affects how the muzzle moves.  If you want to test buffer vs no buffer, you'd have to use a metal guide rod in both cases.

I'd also suggest that how muzzle flip seems is to some degree a function of how recoil feels, so simply doing something that makes recoil feel softer can create the impression muzzle flip is less, and maybe it is, but maybe it isn't.  You'd have to take video with a camera from the side to determine how much difference, if any, there is in muzzle flip. 

THEN there's the REAL question:

Does it matter?

The only importance of any of this is whether or not it functions to decrease split times. There's this intuitive impression that softer felt recoil must equal faster splits, or that less muzzle flip equals faster splits, and we spend a ton of time online talking about felt recoil. BUT the only thing that equals faster splits IS faster splits.  ;) And the only thing you can measure that with is a shot timer. 

Whether or not the recoil buffer reduces muzzle flip is irrelevant.  Whether or not it reduces split times is what's important.

And generally speaking, if a modest decrease in recoil improves your split times, you have a weakness in grip and/or stance (most shooters can improve dramatically in this regard).  If you employ good grip and stance, modest differences in recoil should have no observable impact on split times.

Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: tdogg on October 13, 2018, 01:27:44 AM
My TSO is the first CZ I've owned that came with buffers.   I use them.   I think it dampens the impulse felt and makes it softer feeling.   Couldn't comment on splits or muzzle flip.  I use the thick version and they seems to last quite well in my 40 major rig.

Cheers,
Toby

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Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: Skookum on October 14, 2018, 02:08:20 PM
What about reliability?  I've read that recoil buffers reduce pistol reliability by increasing failures to eject and feed.
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: IDescribe on October 14, 2018, 04:14:27 PM
What about reliability?  I've read that recoil buffers reduce pistol reliability by increasing failures to eject and feed.

I have read the same thing with aftermarket recoil buffers, which is why I've never bought one, but I haven't heard anything of the sort from CZ owners with the pistols that have them designed for them, so I'm curious to hear, as well.
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: tdogg on October 14, 2018, 11:22:02 PM
I've put over 3k through my TSO and have only replaced the buffer once.  The thin buffer looked like it was going to come apart and was pretty chewed up.    When I replaced it,  I put in the thicker CZ buffer.   It seems to be holding up well.

Interesting enough,  I think the thicker buffer has reduced the ejection distance a little too.  I haven't done any experiments to prove it but it seems like it at the range.  I've been looking for a way to reduce the ejection distance and I'll call this a feature on my gun. :)

Cheers,
Toby

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Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: Matt101 on October 15, 2018, 05:18:58 AM
3k is like a months worth of practice for some.

The buffer is the first thing I take out usually. On Czechmates, TSO?s & S2?s.

I?ve only just started using a thin one in the Czechmate. I know someone who?s using one and I?ve got enough to replace regularly.


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Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: dbarn on December 07, 2018, 02:18:33 PM
Haven't added to this thread lately and appreciate the responses.

For those who have had the buffer sets included with your pistols, are you using the thick or thin version?
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: Brhodes6 on January 27, 2019, 07:25:11 AM
I take mine out , have never had an issue .

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Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: 2morechains on January 27, 2019, 11:35:16 AM
I left mine in, haven?t had any issues. 

And this is coming from someone who never ran one in a 1911 or 2011. 

Next range sessions I?m going to shoot some timed drills with and without. 
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: Old Rocket on January 29, 2019, 08:26:51 AM
I take mine out, if you shoot enough it is something else to fail.
I have to replace my springs 15-20k once a year can't imagine having to replace a buffer 3+ times to the springs.
TS40 limited major.
9mm in a steel gun and i don't even concern myself with muzzle flip.
In a 45 1911 never needed them.
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: dbarn on March 18, 2019, 08:15:55 AM
Have been doing some pretty extensive testing with using the recoil buffers on rapid fire using the recoil buffer on a metal rod, metal rod, and a Delrin Shadow type plastic guide rod all with a 13 lb hammer spring with 11 lb recoil spring.

One of my drills is to stand at 10 yards firing 5 rounds as fast as I can onto a sheet of notebook paper. Usually in 2.5 seconds or less. Of course the goal is to get all five on the paper.

If I do my part with stance, firm grip, front sight etc., the best results as far as recoil impulse, sight tracking, ejection and getting 4-5 rounds center on paper were achieved with the Delrin plastic rod.

Your results may vary, but I'm sold on this set up.
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: deadsh0t on August 26, 2019, 03:18:28 AM
I used the standard buffer for about 30'000 rounds, then I decided to change it but it was still there, not about to break (you can notice it). It was using 10-11 Lb so it will last very long for sure. It reduces the slide travel so it can affect how the gun recoils (not how much), since the timing is different.

Some competitors suggest to always use it in training and always remove it in competitions so nothing can go wrong and your gun will last longer

When I remove it, double tap results change a lot (because I tuned it to a point where any detail will change the result)
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: tdogg on October 02, 2019, 01:30:01 AM
Just replaced another buffer in my TSO, at about 3k.  I don't think they last as long when shooting major in 40.

They are cheap enough and easy to inspect for damage when cleaning the pistol.  They definitely alter the felt recoil and ejection distance.

Cheers,
Toby

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Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: igolfat8 on October 27, 2019, 11:05:30 PM
Cajun has a tutorial on their website that recommends removing the buffer from all pistols.
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: timmy75 on October 28, 2019, 01:48:51 AM
what is the difference between thick and thin buffers?
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: tdogg on October 29, 2019, 01:47:35 AM
The thick buffers are about 1/8 inch.  The thin buffers are less maybe 3/32 inch?

I haven't tried the black plastic buffers.  The clear vinyl ones that come with the gun are what I've been using.

Cheers,
Toby
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: timmy75 on October 29, 2019, 03:42:07 AM
ok thanks.
is there any difference in felt recoil, extraction etc?
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: Walt Sherrill on October 29, 2019, 09:31:46 AM
One acquaintance, a fellow named Larry Brown, is a very accomplished shooter -- his credentials include:
Larry sometimes used buffers, but it had nothing to do with reducing felt recoil.  He spoke of using buffers in some guns and situations, paired with a lightened (maybe shortened) recoil spring/assembly, to increase slide cycling speed.

When you shoot with his skill level -- I've shot in a couple of IDPA matches with him and he did his first IDPA Qualifier with our IDPA club  -- that extra slide speed added to the rest of what he brings to a match (intelligence, reflexes and exceptional physical skills) seems to help and certainly doesn't hurt.
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: 2morechains on October 29, 2019, 08:52:51 PM
ok thanks.
is there any difference in felt recoil, extraction etc?

I ran a series of comparison bill drills with and without buffer installed.  Everything else was the same (ammo, recoil spring, etc). 

To be honest, I found no discernible difference if the buffer was installed or not with regards to felt recoil, accuracy, extraction, etc.  If there was any advantage without I would have removed the buffer.  But after 7K-ish rnds on the original buffer the thing looks brand new.  I’m keeping it in there to see how long it will last purely out of curiosity since it doesn’t affect function.   

This is the first gun I’ve run a buffer in.  All my other guns I never had a good experience with buffers -they either disintegrate after 500 rnds or they affect the function of the slide release.
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: pcar157 on December 06, 2019, 02:14:34 PM
Where can the clear (think they are silicone) shock buffers be purchased?
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: George16 on December 06, 2019, 03:46:45 PM
Where can the clear (think they are silicone) shock buffers be purchased?

Check out CZ-USA.
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: dbarn on January 24, 2020, 11:58:47 AM
Found some recent buffs from CZ  that are black vs. clear. Someone posted that they have recently purchased a Shadow 2 and it actually came with both.

Anyone know the difference between the two? Either longevity or different recoil impulse? Also seeing the black does not come with the extra lip that the thick clear ones have.
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: tdogg on January 24, 2020, 05:29:49 PM
I just ordered some black buffers from CZ USA among other items.  I can post up pictures when they arrive.

Cheers,
Toby
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: tdogg on February 01, 2020, 04:27:30 PM
Recieved the buffers.   They are still rubber but they are a higher durometer than the clear vinyl buffers. They should last longer.   I haven't shot the gun yet to see if any percieved recoil/impulse difference.

They have a ring on only one side of the ID guide rod hole that may be a different material.   It's hard to tell but it may be slightly harder than the outside material.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200201/5af7ad7ea1eba93bee21722dc7325f0c.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200201/adaddb536428c25439d59c5686ea1209.jpg)

Cheers
Toby

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Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: tdogg on February 08, 2020, 06:53:06 PM
I stand corrected.   I ran the black buffer at  my or local match today.  I don't think it will last.   It is already showing signs of wear after one match.   I'd stick with the vinyl buffers.

Cheers,
Toby

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Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: dbarn on March 12, 2020, 08:39:59 AM
I stand corrected.   I ran the black buffer at  my or local match today.  I don't think it will last.   It is already showing signs of wear after one match.   I'd stick with the vinyl buffers.

Cheers,
Toby

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I agree the vinyl buffers appear to last longer. However the black versions appear to wear to a point and stop. Getting a little ragged around the lower corners. But, I like the recoil impulse of the black ones better. Also I really like this particular guide rod with buffers and 11lb recoil spring. It was stock in my SP-01 Shadow Orange and is the only guide rod I've found that fit's flush with the hole.

https://www.ipscstore.com/en/sport-guns-et-parts/8358-eemann-tech-guide-rod-for-cz-75-sp-01-shadow-new-design.html?search_query=Guide+Rod&results=416
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: tdogg on March 12, 2020, 02:41:49 PM
I can't tell a difference/haven't noticed a difference between the Black and Vinyl.  I am running an unofficial test with one black and one vinyl in my TSO's.  I don't shoot them both an equal amount so it will take some time to compare.  I plan on noting the round count when I choose to replace them to see which lasts longer.  It may be moot test as we may only have the black version going forward available from CZ.

Cheers,
Toby



Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: Walt Sherrill on March 12, 2020, 09:57:48 PM
Has anyone asked CZ Custom (the folks who designed some of the competition-type guns) WHY they built these guns with buffers?  An answer to that question might be all we need to know.   Someone might also ask Cajun Gun Works why they recommend removing them from all CZs.

As I noted earlier, I understand why some competitors use them, but  one I know uses buffers in addition to other modifications to the guns to speed cycling speed.  If it cycles faster you can pull the trigger faster -- but I don't shoot at their level and wouldn't know what to do with that extra speed. 

But as for felt recoil or muzzle flip, I am less sure that buffers or other recoil reduction systems have that much to offer.  But I admit I'm no expert on the topic.

I've tried buffers in a number of different guns and all I learned was that they can deteriorate pretty rapidly and if you don't check them every time you shoot, you might end up with a gun that's not cycling right, because pieces of buffer get into the recoil spring and guide and gums things up. 

From a pure physics perspective, I don't really understand  how a thicker or thinner buffer can greatly affect the amount of muzzle flip -- particularly if you're shooting the same ammo and the slide is still traveling essentially the same distance.  (Momentum might be different, but I'm not savvy enough in  physics  to understand how that difference might affect muzzle flip.
 
The following is extracted from a reply on the Brian Enos forum, addressing recoil reduction, etc."   He mentions Bruce Gray, who is one of the real GURUs of competitive shooters.  He was a top shooter in his day, and he now one of the top gunsmiths in the country.  If you've owned a Gray Gun you have owned a very unique SIG or H&K.   I don't know who posted this reply.  The topic is about devices used to reduce barrel flip or felt recoil, but it was part of a longer discussion.  I saved that segment but not the full discussion.
Others here may offer a different perspective or have a better understanding of the physics involved than I do.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Note:  I tried a Sprinco Recoil Reducer once, about 15 years ago and couldn't notice a difference in performance -- it did seem to shoot a bit more softly -- but, hey!  It's a 9mm, and with the great CZ ergonomics, that extra softness may have been my imagination.  I still have that unit tucked away in a small CZ parts bin. and pulled it out tonight to look at it again, and read the technical info that came with it.   Sprinco is still in business...
Title: Re: Recoil Buffers and Competition
Post by: dbarn on March 13, 2020, 09:06:51 AM
I'm no expert either but have done a lot of rapid-fire shooting both with and without the buffers. I like using metal guide rods, but with buffers as has been coming on the Shadow 2 pistols and Shadow Orange versions directly from the CZ factory as manufactured.

What I'm seeing is an improvement (ever so slight but there) in how the pistol prints on double taps and rapid-fire shots. Not to take anything away from technique but rather to complement it. Without technique you have nothing.

The pistol definitely feels different in recoil with buffers. Is it smoother or better? That's probably going to depend on how each shooter perceives recoil, but it's definitely different as opposed to metal on metal. Also, it may or may not help with the longevity of the slide stop which would be a good thing. Each person will have to evaluate if buffers are right for them, but it does make you wonder why CZ is now shipping pistols with them. YMMV