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CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CLUB CZ97 => Topic started by: capt bob on October 30, 2018, 09:48:04 PM

Title: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: capt bob on October 30, 2018, 09:48:04 PM
My 2 month old 97B started having intermittent primer strikes  like I could shoot a full mag and couple rounds into the second mag the trigger / hammer feels odd and get no strike whatsoever and can remember the hammer not locking back with multiple tries sometimes I can rack the slide a few times and get it to fire but obviously don't trust it in any way shape or form

I spoke to CZ directly and first thing the guy asked was my loaded chamber indicator intact on slide  and yes it is  I had some suspect on that after some research  he did say the gun will not fire if it's removed though , I really hate to send stuff for warranty but I did all the due diligence I could muster  even a phone call to Cajun  the fellow there David said sounds like a lock up or timing issue , I have a bevey of CGW parts to install in this one as I really like and it's quite accurate but
not till it's running like a Swiss Watch .

Any notions on this ? 
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: capt bob on October 30, 2018, 09:50:39 PM
My 2 month old 97B started having intermittent primer strikes  like I could shoot a full mag and couple rounds into the second mag the trigger / hammer feels odd and get no strike whatsoever and can remember the hammer not locking back with multiple tries sometimes I can rack the slide a few times and get it to fire but obviously don't trust it in any way shape or form

I spoke to CZ directly and first thing the guy asked was my loaded chamber indicator intact on slide  and yes it is  I had some suspect on that after some research  he did say the gun will not fire if it's removed though , I really hate to send stuff for warranty but I did all the due diligence I could muster  even a phone call to Cajun  the fellow there David said sounds like a lock up or timing issue , I have a bevey of CGW parts to install in this one as I really like and it's quite accurate but
not till it's running like a Swiss Watch .

Any notions on this ?
Whoops looks like I ended up on the Rami section would a moderator please move to appropriate section
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: daved20319 on October 31, 2018, 11:09:03 AM
Don't know how familiar you are with CZ's, but have you done a lot of unprotected dry fire?  By unprotected, I mean no snap cap or oring under the hammer.  If so, this can cause wear to the firing pin retaining pin, with symptoms that sound similar to what you're describing.  The only other things that come to mind are some grit in the firing pin channel or hammer works, or a burr somewhere.  Had the latter problem on a Taurus PT 92, frequent extraction failures were caused by a burr in the extractor cut.  Once diagnosed and cleaned up, it's run flawlessly ever since.  Good luck.

Dave
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: capt bob on October 31, 2018, 09:10:09 PM
Thanks Dave  The fellow that works for me took it down to parts and he knows his CZ's he could not find any problems  I suggested he try my slide on his 97 frame and he declined  I can't blame him for that ,  I sent a repair request in and waiting for CZ to respond and e mail me a Fed Ex label .   
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: daved20319 on November 10, 2018, 10:59:57 AM
Any update, Capt?  Inquiring minds need to know  ;).

Dave
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: capt bob on November 10, 2018, 10:24:18 PM
Oh Hell yes !   Ok here's the poop as of yesterday  CZ received the 97 and deemed it unrepairable and are going to replace it !  That's ok with me but the hard part is "when they are available"  but promised to punish me weekly to tell me they don't have them yet with an email .

Here is my thinking on this I did notice that the recoil spring seemed to be getting weaker only after couple hundred rounds and once that caused the bushing to rotate to not be lined up and locked and it did mar one of the faces on bushing a bit but not bad  , My gunsmithing buddy that works for me thinks that the slide hammered too hard to frame with weak spring and tweaked it out some But really not sure of anything , CZ offered no explanation , I never used any hot rounds mostly CCI Blazer 230 .

I would suggest going to a 12 pound  or greater recoil spring on any 97 just to be on the safe side .

If the new one shoots well and am happy with it I might send the slide to CGW for the Bushing conversion it's not that much $$ and 3 week turnaround .

Maybe they will send me a nice polished blue one with Aluminum grips and fiber O sights  or not......

I just got me a Tac Sport 40 that I have gussied up with new sights grips and magwell so I wont miss it too much (Awesome shooter) and have a few 45's from Colt to tide me over for the 45 fixx.   
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: thedude on November 11, 2018, 10:11:50 AM
Here is my thinking on this I did notice that the recoil spring seemed to be getting weaker only after couple hundred rounds and once that caused the bushing to rotate to not be lined up and locked and it did mar one of the faces on bushing a bit but not bad 

I would suggest going to a 12 pound  or greater recoil spring on any 97 just to be on the safe side .


I thought the stock 97 recoil spring was 13 or 14lbs.?

(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee108/Lurch556/Hi%20Point%20JHP/IMG_1479_zpss1yuqde0.jpg)
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: Camaro400 on November 11, 2018, 10:41:07 AM
If the new one shoots well and am happy with it I might send the slide to CGW for the Bushing conversion it's not that much $$ and 3 week turnaround .

Maybe they will send me a nice polished blue one with Aluminum grips and fiber O sights  or not......

You will love the CGW conversion. I know I do!!!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181111/d069b6a45c469cd6e07f58eabc7a238a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181111/5421a686421f33bef492415cee6547ca.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181111/d4cfed7e3f5486c262f4de1d72758e03.jpg)


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Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: capt bob on November 11, 2018, 04:09:03 PM
My Bad just looked at my Midway order for a 16 LB spring

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/619921/wolff-recoil-spring-cz-75-85-97-b-models-only-16-lb-extra-power

Thanks I will plan on the CGW bushing conversion  did it make a negligible difference with accuracy ?  I know they boast it up good 

I really want my 97 b to be on par with my Tac sport 40 / Shadow 2 , I have most of the CGW spring / trigger upgrades as well in a box as well as the firing pin ect I plan on putting in the new one they send me once I put couple hundred downrange to loosen things up a bit , My first one shot decent but sub par to my 1911's
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: Camaro400 on November 11, 2018, 04:28:59 PM
I purchased the pro package along with having the barrel bushing (E Conversion).
It included the Race or Ring hammer, short reset system (SRS), reach reduction kit (RRK) with the hybrid T2 disconnector, all new music wire springs, and heat treated pins.

I saw a huge difference, but it also felt a lot better with the additional work. I am not sure if it was the bushing or the pro package.


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Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: Earl Keese on November 11, 2018, 06:40:04 PM
Bushing made a massive difference on mine. It prefers 185/200gr swc's though.
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: capt bob on November 11, 2018, 07:17:20 PM
Copy that on the lighter bullets seems most 45's smile when you put a 185 down the chute  ,  Wifes Commander Race gun (formerly mine) eats up that 185 white box , I am thinking about doing a Repo and putting a Wilson barrel and bushing and make it stock length as it's very slicked up to change out carry gun for winter !  Bone stock  Lightweight Stainless Commander is in the rig now .

Now I wish my 97 back quicker so I can send it away again get it all slicked up too 

Camaro thanks for the photos on that and like the finish on your frame is that an older one ?

Dude that is exactly what my bushing looked like it also tweaked the guide rod sleeve just a little but an easy sand n buff back to fit

Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: Camaro400 on November 11, 2018, 09:20:53 PM
Now I wish my 97 back quicker so I can send it away again get it all slicked up too 

Camaro thanks for the photos on that and like the finish on your frame is that an older one ?

I bought my 97B about 4 or 5 years ago. It does have the updated barrel with the longer feed ramp.


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Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: thedude on November 11, 2018, 09:50:19 PM
Dude that is exactly what my bushing looked like it also tweaked the guide rod sleeve just a little but an easy sand n buff back to fit

I found that picture of the damaged barrel bushing on another forum.  It sounds like the bushing can rotate during recoil and get out of position which then impacts the recoil spring plug.  I don't really see how the bushing could rotate though if it is installed correctly.  I also read on here how you have to be careful not to over tighten the barrel bushing.  Screw the bushing all the way in and then back it off to the first notch in the bushing.

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=65659.0
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: Radom on November 13, 2018, 12:13:49 AM
FWIW 1st gen 97Bs have a single-position external bushing.  It's the same as the one in Camaro400's post, but blued.  The bushing only fits in that position (obviously), and it has little slack, enough to move it for easy disassembly. 

From what I can tell, the 1st gens were meant to use standard 75/85 recoil springs (nominally 14 lbs.), as opposed to heavier aftermarket springs.  When I tried heavier springs (like 16 lbs.), they would tend to drag on the frame until they took a set.  I bought mine in 2001, so I don't remember all of the details.  I do remember shooting heavy springs (16 lbs. and higher) in a 75B to "set" them, then trying them in the 97B. This was a long time ago, and I have zero experience with more recent 97s.  I think I am using a 16 lb. Wolff spring now. 

I would look at older posts and the archives. 
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: Earl Keese on November 13, 2018, 06:25:35 AM
FWIW 1st gen 97Bs have a single-position external bushing.  It's the same as the one in Camaro400's post, but blued.  The bushing only fits in that position (obviously), and it has little slack, enough to move it for easy disassembly. 

From what I can tell, the 1st gens were meant to use standard 75/85 recoil springs (nominally 14 lbs.), as opposed to heavier aftermarket springs.  When I tried heavier springs (like 16 lbs.), they would tend to drag on the frame until they took a set.  I bought mine in 2001, so I don't remember all of the details.  I do remember shooting heavy springs (16 lbs. and higher) in a 75B to "set" them, then trying them in the 97B. This was a long time ago, and I have zero experience with more recent 97s.  I think I am using a 16 lb. Wolff spring now. 

I would look at older posts and the archives.
That's a CGW 1911 bushing.
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: capt bob on December 11, 2018, 04:44:17 PM
Got the E mail this morning CZ is sending me  my original gun back repaired  this is the explain

" Work Performed: Pistols trigger pin appears to have been removed before. Right side trigger bar spring out of place between trigger bar and frame. Adjusted and placed trigger bar spring in proper position. Test fired good "

That prob happened when my bud removed the CGW trigger kit and firing pin ect trying to fix the original problem before I sent it back to CZ so have my doubts
unless the Tech fired 2-3 mags before the problem would occur anyway they originally said the gun was unrepairable and were sending me a new one once they were available guess not available or they just went to work on it.

Stay tuned and will shoot it  straight away with the 5 mags I have loaded and ready , I doubt I will send to CGW for the bushing Mod till I am for sure the problem will not come back to haunt me again as I am sure that will void the warranty I have left .
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: Earl Keese on December 11, 2018, 08:15:01 PM
I would call them directly and ask what changed from the original determination.
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: Walt Sherrill on December 11, 2018, 08:59:38 PM
I haven't had to buy recoil springs for a 97B or a 75B-based gun in years, so some of this may have changed.

When I was shooting CZs a  lot, the Wolff CZ springs were really NOT CZ-spec springs, but springs made for the Tanfoglio version of the CZ design.  The Wollf springs had to fit the larger diameter Tanfoglio/Witness guide rods, but they worked OK in the CZs.   

Springs for the Browning High Power seemed almost identical in size/diameter as the CZ factory springs and offered some weights (including a variable rate spring) not available for CZs.  That's all I've used for the years that I was shooting 75Bs and my 85 Combat.  (My CZ and CZ-pattern gun collection is much smaller, nowaday, but I've still got a parts bin with a variety of both diameter recoil springs stashed away.)

If nothing has changed, and you're using a stock guide rod and a WOLFF spring, it's not going to fit the recoil spring tightly; if so, you will see and hear some rubbing inside the dust cover and see marks on the on the underside of the barrel.   
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: capt bob on December 13, 2018, 11:48:22 PM
Got it back this afternoon took to range fired my 5 mags of blazer 230 ball and a box of 50 SB 230 ball no problems  100 rounds good ! 

I put my upgraded recoil spring and guide rod after I cleaned when I was done but not going to put any other internals in till I get 500 rounds thru it

trigger breaks at 4.5 so it's livable , It shot decent but in it's absence I acquired a DW Bruin in 45 almost like cheating in comparison and stayed with the company

If it stays together I will do the CGW Bushing next.     
Title: Re: 97 B Going back to CZ
Post by: Radom on December 25, 2018, 11:32:10 PM
I haven't had to buy recoil springs for a 97B or a 75B-based gun in years, so some of this may have changed.

When I was shooting CZs a  lot, the Wolff CZ springs were really NOT CZ-spec springs, but springs made for the Tanfoglio version of the CZ design.  The Wollf springs had to fit the larger diameter Tanfoglio/Witness guide rods, but they worked OK in the CZs.   

Springs for the Browning High Power seemed almost identical in size/diameter as the CZ factory springs and offered some weights (including a variable rate spring) not available for CZs.  That's all I've used for the years that I was shooting 75Bs and my 85 Combat.  (My CZ and CZ-pattern gun collection is much smaller, nowaday, but I've still got a parts bin with a variety of both diameter recoil springs stashed away.)

If nothing has changed, and you're using a stock guide rod and a WOLFF spring, it's not going to fit the recoil spring tightly; if so, you will see and hear some rubbing inside the dust cover and see marks on the on the underside of the barrel.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I used to "set" springs for the 97B by shooting the Wolff Tanfoglio/CZ springs in a 75B.  I actually got this idea from you, Walt.  (This is FEG with a new username/ID).  I've had a 97B for over 16 years, and I have never had any rubbing wear from springs. 

To clarify, there were no aftermarket springs for CZs about 10-20 years ago.  You could either buy springs from CZ-USA (weak/undersprung), or buy aftermarket springs from Wolff that were really intended for Tanfoglios.