The Original CZ Forum

CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CLUB CZ97 => Topic started by: Aries144 on November 07, 2018, 07:14:28 AM

Title: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Aries144 on November 07, 2018, 07:14:28 AM
I just found Ian McCollum's review of the CZ-97 and, like everything else VZ-58 and after, I'm in love. However, I hate that the pistol seems artificially limited to 10 rounds mags when other pistols of comparable grip size can use 14. Would anyone happen to know the technical reason why the mags are limited to 10 rounds? Wall thickness of the magazine/magazine well? Deliberately oversized follower/spring? Indentations near the bottom sides of the magazine? Something else?

Has anyone ever compared a CZ-97 magazine to one from the FN45 for comparison?
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: ssqman on November 07, 2018, 10:39:56 AM
I don't know what the technical/mechanical reason is but it sure seems large enough to hold 12. That would be so great. I don't think CZ or Mecgar even make any +2 extensions.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: eastman on November 07, 2018, 02:09:10 PM
The USA is nearly the only market for .45 ACP, and the pistol was designed during the Slick Willy Scary-looking Semi-Auto Ban so was limited to 10 for civilian USA sales

the political overrules the technical
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: daved20319 on November 07, 2018, 02:33:08 PM
The USA is nearly the only market for .45 ACP, and the pistol was designed during the Slick Willy Scary-looking Semi-Auto Ban so was limited to 10 for civilian USA sales

the political overrules the technical

Not an unreasonable surmise, but if that was the case, I suspect Mec-Gar would happily be supplying us with higher capacity mags, but they're not.  I suspect it's esthetics and grip feel, they had to scale up the 75 to handle the bigger cartridge, but didn't want a grip so fat that only King Kong would be happy with it.  So they used a staggered mag vs. a true double stack, that allowed a couple more rounds over the competition (1911), while still being something most shooters could get a handle on, without looking like it had a butt more suited to a hippo.

That said, I won't have mine in hand until later today, maybe I'll come up with a different theory then  8).  Later.

Dave
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: tdogg on November 07, 2018, 03:05:40 PM
I don't think Mecgar would make any money building a larger magazine.  It only fits the 97, not a big enough market to justify.

Cheers,
Toby
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Earl Keese on November 07, 2018, 03:18:15 PM
Henning makes mag extensions for Tanfoglio large frames that will work.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: rich63 on November 07, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
I remember reading here that someone modified the mecgar +2 extensions to fir the CZ 97 magazine. I cannot recall who did it or when it was posted. Maybe someone with a better memory will come along and remember.

rich63
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: daved20319 on November 07, 2018, 05:21:13 PM
I don't think Mecgar would make any money building a larger magazine.  It only fits the 97, not a big enough market to justify.

Cheers,
Toby

Mec-Gar makes 10 rd. mags for the 97's, and they also fit a bunch of other CZ clones and near clones.  And it seems like EVERYONE wants more capacity, something I don't quite get sometimes.  I mean, you buy a compact pistol for concealed carry, then buy an extended mag that makes it harder to conceal  :o?  Is two more rounds REALLY going to matter in a gunfight?  But I digress.  Anyway, I think the market is there, so there has to be another reason no one is goig after it.  But that's just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions  ;D.  Later.

Dave
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Aries144 on November 07, 2018, 08:41:03 PM
I don't think the grip would have to be any larger, that's why I'm puzzled. The first time I handled the FN45, I was shocked that the grip was as small as it was with a 14rd magazine.

It's just a shame to see such a nice handgun still held back twenty years later because of the nefarious politics in play when it was released.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: DJK11 on November 08, 2018, 04:59:52 AM

Mec-Gar makes 10 rd. mags for the 97's, and they also fit a bunch of other CZ clones and near clones.  And it seems like EVERYONE wants more capacity, something I don't quite get sometimes.  I mean, you buy a compact pistol for concealed carry, then buy an extended mag mthat makes it harder to conceal  :o?  Is two more rounds REALLY going to matter in a gunfight?  But I digress.  Anyway, I think the market is there, so there has to be another reason no one is goig after it.  But that's just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions  ;D.  Later.

Dave
[/quote]

Big gun should be big capacity.  Two or four more rounds would be great.  Would two more rounds in a gun fight make a difference?  Which rounds stop the threat, first two or last two?  One just never knows.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Radom on November 08, 2018, 05:01:40 AM
The USA is nearly the only market for .45 ACP, and the pistol was designed during the Slick Willy Scary-looking Semi-Auto Ban so was limited to 10 for civilian USA sales

the political overrules the technical

That's THE reason.  I bought my low serial #  in 2001. The OEM mags are clearly labeled ".45 Witness."
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: .45 acp nut on November 19, 2018, 12:15:49 AM
I modified some mecgar +2 basepads to fit the 97B mag. Because the 45 case is much larger, I only got +1. So, you may not think the effort is worth it. I was looking for extra room in the mag, when loaded with 10 rounds, for doing reloads with the slide closed.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: AZ_CZ on November 19, 2018, 12:34:42 AM
Considering the overall size of the grip it certainly seems like it should hold more. Had an XD with the 13 rnd (?) mags and the grip was similar in feel. Not really concerned about the capacity. Carry a 1911 with 8 rnds and don't feel under gunned. Plus I like the "thin" spare mag that fits in a back pocket. My 97 is about the last gun I would use to carry or for HD.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Joe L on November 23, 2018, 07:51:38 PM
Dang, I didn't know it was 10 round max.  I've never tried to load more than 5 at a time, however.   :) :)

Joe
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Vinny on November 23, 2018, 08:36:14 PM
I don't think the grip would have to be any larger, that's why I'm puzzled. The first time I handled the FN45, I was shocked that the grip was as small as it was with a 14rd magazine.

It's just a shame to see such a nice handgun still held back twenty years later because of the nefarious politics in play when it was released.
+1
I love my 9mm CZ DA/SA's, from RAMI BD to SP-01 Tactical; but when it came to adding a DA/SA 45ACP brother to my 1911; I chose the FNX 45 Tactical with 15+1 over the CZ 97. I agree the FNX grip doesn't feel any wider, but has 50% more capacity than CZ 97.  I also like that the FNX is already milled for Red Dot with good BUIS.  I'm not saying the 97 isn't a really nice handgun. Hope y'all can get at least 12rnd mags. 
P.S. Just for reference I measured the width of my FNX 45 at the grip = 1.32" -Vinny
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: ams on January 16, 2019, 11:18:43 PM
Magazine measurements for comparison
CZ97 magazine width - .7725"
CZ97 magazine height at max width - .3.52"

Para P14 magazine width - .8865"
Para P14 magazine height at max width - 3.52"

Width of 2 .45acp shells .94"

Looks like 2 rds in a cz mag goes to .86" in height while P14 goes to .55" in height.

This means that there should be room for 8 rds in the widest part of the magazine while the Para should be able to hold 12.  Once the spring is compressed and the follower is in the bottom and the narrowing, upper portion holding 2 rds, gets to 10 for the CZ and 14 for the Para.  The frame on the CZ is longer but narrower than the para.  Not sure it has much to do with the AWB as much as it keeping it narrower to use the CZ75 internals. (I think that the internals are the same).
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 17, 2019, 11:26:23 AM
Quote
I don't think Mecgar would make any money building a larger magazine.  It only fits the 97, not a big enough market to justify.

Those same mags would probably fit the Tanfoglio/Witness and Turkish knock-offs of the CZ pattern, too, and there's a bunch of them out there.  I just don't know if there's that much demand.  At different times Tanfoglio, Witness (made by Tanfoglio) and Magnum Research (which imported the ASAI ONE PRO) all used 10-round mags for their .45s -- and the mags were interchangeable with the CZ-97B.  (I've had an ASAI ONE PRO, a couple of Witness .45s, and a 97B all at the same time.  At that point in time, the factory mags that came with the guns were all made by Mec-Gar.) 

Many folks seem to think 10  rounds of .45 is enough.  :)

High-cap mags are popular in the gun games (IPSC/USPSA/IDPA), but shooters there quickly found that you can get a lot more .40 rounds into a full-sized grip than .45s rounds and still meet the power factor limits.

There are apparently a number of .45s similar to or based on the Para Ordnance P14 design that holds 14 rounds used in IPSC or USPSA. There are a number of guns that have more than 10-round capacities, but they tend to be somewhat specialized.  My Springfield XDm Competition in .45 came with five 13-round magazines and it's set up for the gun games (even if I'm not!) :)  While most H&K .45s are limited to 10 rounds,   the Mark 23  which has 12-round magazines, and the Glock 21 comes with 13-round mags.   
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Vinny on January 18, 2019, 01:20:32 PM
What competition and 100 years of development can do.
Comparing John Browning's timeless 1911 with 7 rounds+1 of 45ACP developed for the US Military that was a state-of-the art combat weapon for many years; to the similar size FNH-FNX45 Tactical with 15+1 rounds of 45ACP developed a century later for the US Military's sidearm replacement competition and subsequently released for civilian consumption. The FNX's grip is only 1.32" wide. I think CZ's 97 with 10+1; although a fine handgun; is stuck somewhere back a quarter century ago in development, apparently with little motivation to update.
(https://i.imgur.com/vs90XJn.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: jwc007 on January 18, 2019, 03:24:34 PM
Many folks seem to think 10  rounds of .45 is enough.  :)

Pretty much that, for myself. 

Back when I carried my old .45 Witness, one Mag in the Pistol plus two on my belt, gave me 30 rounds which I thought was plenty, should the need arise.
When I shot IPSC Matches with it, having five 10 round magazines gave me 50 rounds, which proved more than enough.

Back in 2013, when Sarsilmaz started importing through EAA, a 14 round capacity Cz Clone, I thought it could be the next best thing, and bought one.  Being an all Steel Handgun and loaded with 14 rounds of .45 ACP, makes the SAR K2-45 quite a heavy Pistol to lug around all day.  With two spare 14 round Magazines on my belt, it's even worse.  I like it as a Home Defense Pistol, but carrying it, not so much.

(http://i.imgur.com/mmaltq2l.jpg) (https://imgur.com/mmaltq2)
1992 EAA Witness .45
2005 EAA Witness .45
2013 SAR K2-45
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on January 18, 2019, 04:48:52 PM
The USA is nearly the only market for .45 ACP, and the pistol was designed during the Slick Willy Scary-looking Semi-Auto Ban so was limited to 10 for civilian USA sales
I have to agree with this. At the time CZ rolled out the 97 10 rnds was the max and I suspect they just don't see enough demand to up the capacity. Maybe at some point Mecgar will offer extended mags or + size floor plates but I just don't see CZ reworking the gun at this point. I think they are much more focused on upping their striker fired line.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Joe L on January 19, 2019, 06:31:04 AM
Polymer guns==set magazine capacity then design the grip to just barely contain the magazine.
Steel guns==design the grip to fit the hand then design the magazine
Sugru==modify the polymer gun to fit the hand and keep the fat magazines.

I've got examples.   I have to have ovalized myself, however one gets there.  :) :)

Joe
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Radom on January 19, 2019, 06:56:17 AM
The USA is nearly the only market for .45 ACP, and the pistol was designed during the Slick Willy Scary-looking Semi-Auto Ban so was limited to 10 for civilian USA sales
I have to agree with this. At the time CZ rolled out the 97 10 rnds was the max and I suspect they just don't see enough demand to up the capacity. Maybe at some point Mecgar will offer extended mags or + size floor plates but I just don't see CZ reworking the gun at this point. I think they are much more focused on upping their striker fired line.


Sad, but true.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 19, 2019, 10:31:17 AM
I agree that the US is the only big market for .45s, but it's also the LARGEST market for handguns, period.

I suspect that the good ol' 1911 -- the only true All American semi-auto handgun -- has caused too many folks to think that 8-rounds are totally sufficient for most .45 "events," and it might be.

For home- or self-defense you seldom hear (nor can you find evidence on line) of a shooting that takes more than 3-4 rounds fired by the good guy.  If you did, you'd probably see more folks carrying backup magazines.  The Ellifritz study, which is quite large, shows that most civilian shootings are seldom more than 2-4 shots fired.

But that's true of 9mms and .40s involved in shootings too, but those guns are far more popular in the gun games where lots of rounds are important.  I think the gun games drive a lot of the features we see on newer handguns.  Even if you don't need 17 rounds, extended mag releases, or clean triggers with short resets, those things are seldom a hindrance. 

I think marketers selling guns use the same psychology and techniques we see used when selling cars -- it's often more about IMAGE than true function or performance.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on January 19, 2019, 07:22:34 PM
I always carry a spare mag whether it be for my PCR, Sig P225 or 2 speed loaders if I'm carrying a J frame. 95% of the time I'll be carrying a hi cap 9mm because more than likely that's what the bad guy(s) will have. I've read the studies showing rounds fired in civilian shootings and that's all fine for people who like stats. I hope never to need to fire a single round in self defense but I'll always have extra just in case.
Honestly in a perfect world I'd be completely satisfied with a 6 shot .357 mag vs any semi auto.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: Phlyers13 on January 19, 2019, 07:28:24 PM
It?s not as easy as it sounds. Sig had to pull their 14 round p227 mags because they couldn?t get them to run after 5 years. 
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on January 20, 2019, 06:08:20 AM
It?s not as easy as it sounds. Sig had to pull their 14 round p227 mags because they couldn?t get them to run after 5 years.
I read about that.I'm satisfied with the 10 rounders for my P227 SAS.
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: GeneticallySwiss on January 26, 2019, 07:51:07 PM
I have no issue with 10+1 of .45 ACP.  I carried a 1911 for years, including in the military, yes, that long ago.  8). In addition, undoubtedly like many here, I have carried 5 or 6-shot revolvers as my primary, and sole means of self defense and never felt under armed.  If you feel the need to carry a handgun with 15+1 of .45 ACP, that is certainly your prerogative.


GS
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: daved20319 on January 27, 2019, 11:30:49 AM
I just traded my 1911 for a Sig P220R.  Obviously, capacity wasn't the issue, I only gained 1 rd. over the old Colt.  I just wanted a .45 ACP that was a practical carry piece, but that was DA/SA with decocker.  Plus, the 1911 was on the market anyway, and this was a great chance to get my hands on my first Sig.  Now if I could just do something similar and score a SP-01 Tactical  ::).  Later.

Dave
Title: Re: Can anyone shed some technical light on why these pistols are limited to 10rds?
Post by: longgonedaddy on February 01, 2019, 01:58:26 PM
Technically, the mag may be limited to 10 rds...but nothing can stop you from carrying more than just one 97!  8)