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GENERAL => General Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: Hrfunk on November 30, 2018, 11:15:21 AM

Title: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Hrfunk on November 30, 2018, 11:15:21 AM
Hi all! Below is the final installment (at least for now) of my evaluation of the Kel-Tec Sub2000 as an active threat response option. If you've been following this series, Thank you! As always, be sure to share your thoughts with me after viewing this final episode.

HRF

https://youtu.be/Sitg_B-1gsY
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: MuzzleBlastMD on November 30, 2018, 12:26:52 PM
Excellent video.

I didn?t watch the first.

Any plans to change the polymer trigger guard, polymer feed ramp and trigger?

I considered one until I handled one at the LGS.  The trigger felt gritty and the bolt was not smooth.  I also considered doing mods to allow a red dot.  This was probably going to become a costly project for me, so I decided against it.

I was torn amongst this, an AR9 and a Ruger PC Carbine.

Since I have a Micro Roni Stabilizer, and I like its ergonomics/size, I ordered a threaded 10? barrel to serve a similar function as above.

The CZ scorpion and an MP5 also muddy the waters amongst these different platforms.


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Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Blackwatch on December 01, 2018, 03:55:06 PM
Thanks for the follow up to the previous vids  :)

I upgraded the rear sight on my Gen 1 and totally agree with your assessed improvement of use!
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on December 02, 2018, 01:08:18 PM
You can add a bushnell AR high mount red dot for about the same price as the irons option.  Wouldn't allow full folding, but folded to a V, it still allows your gun to be pretty compact. 
Don't know if it works for Gen 2, but keltec sells an insert that snaps into the receiver and covers the barrel chamber hole as well when folded to 180*.  When unfolding, that piece automatically ejects.  A pretty crucial piece of kit if you want to ensure you have no unanticipated issues when going to deploy in defense.  Point being, a red dot w/o a pivoting mount or handguard where you can't fold to 180* wouldn't allow the insertion of this piece of kit w/o modification, mods that would likely also eliminate auto-eject function...

For trigger, upgrading to a wider metal trigger gives significant improvement to felt trigger pull.  As LE, I recognize you may not want to go the reduced weight. 

For the 40 cal sub 2k, there are also heavyweight charging handles that help to reduce felt recoil.  Effectively like using a heavy buffer in AR since handle reciprocates w/ bolt.   Bolt in 40 cals are already the heavy option that you can buy direct from keltec as well.

Just a suggestion, but future multi-part videos, it would be great if you could keep in same thread.  Really helps w/ continuity of discussion.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Rickytick on December 02, 2018, 11:24:11 PM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Hrfunk on December 03, 2018, 08:20:02 AM
Thanks for the comments and the suggestions! I've considered an optic mount that would work like the Bushnell you mentioned, but given my chosen carry method for the S2K it's important for it to fold completely. At this juncture, I'm looking at a 45 degree mount attached to the side of the fore-end. That would do away with any need to swivel, fold, or pivot anything. It would also negate any potential loss of zero attributable to the mount, and it would render the optic instantly available. I haven't fully decided on going that route just yet, but I'm leaning that way.

You are correct in terms of my reluctance to alter any of the fire control parts. That could cause some unnecessary problems for me down the road. I'm also a little leery of adding the heavier charging handle. The added mass will slow the movement of the bolt and carrier (which is why the recoil is diminished), but I'm concerned it might also adversely effect the reliability of the carbine. If my S2K was purely a recreational firearm, I would probably be all for modifying the charging handle. For my purposes, however, a slightly underpowered cartridge could induce a failure (which would, of course occur at the worst possible moment). Because of that, I'll probably stick with the factory charging handle.

Thanks again,
HRF

You can add a bushnell AR high mount red dot for about the same price as the irons option.  Wouldn't allow full folding, but folded to a V, it still allows your gun to be pretty compact. 
Don't know if it works for Gen 2, but keltec sells an insert that snaps into the receiver and covers the barrel chamber hole as well when folded to 180*.  When unfolding, that piece automatically ejects.  A pretty crucial piece of kit if you want to ensure you have no unanticipated issues when going to deploy in defense.  Point being, a red dot w/o a pivoting mount or handguard where you can't fold to 180* wouldn't allow the insertion of this piece of kit w/o modification, mods that would likely also eliminate auto-eject function...

For trigger, upgrading to a wider metal trigger gives significant improvement to felt trigger pull.  As LE, I recognize you may not want to go the reduced weight. 

For the 40 cal sub 2k, there are also heavyweight charging handles that help to reduce felt recoil.  Effectively like using a heavy buffer in AR since handle reciprocates w/ bolt.   Bolt in 40 cals are already the heavy option that you can buy direct from keltec as well.

Just a suggestion, but future multi-part videos, it would be great if you could keep in same thread.  Really helps w/ continuity of discussion.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on December 03, 2018, 10:55:44 PM
With a 7-10 lb trigger pull a metal trigger does much to improve the trigger w/ no effect on the actual mechanical functions of the gun.  Can't imagine that it would be a problem. 

Can't reiterate enough the dust cover.  Trigger guard locks it in just like it locks in the barrel.  Here: https://www.keltecweapons.com/dust-cover-451  Reduces potential to get stuff into the barrel and into the bolt/bolt tube. 

Sub2ks -- really the easiest fix for most folks' self defense use at self defense ranges would be a dual weapon light and laser. If mounting sight options to your HG, I'd recommend installing rail stabilizers that bolt to barrel and interface w/ HG to ensure repeatability.
One benefit of offset is that it pivots the charging handle away from your body and anything likely to tangle it, but also make bird winging more likely, which isn't preferable when working corners.  But I think you need to mount a rail and mount an offset to that in order to have folding clearance, which moves it more off the bore than you might like, potentially affecting cheekweld..

Don't get me wrong, I like the Sub2k, especially for what it is, but it's REALLY easy to spend $150-300 on prudent upgrades on the gun, with the lower # being upgrades I'd consider essential for fighting weapon.  Vs the new Ruger PC9 carbine, I'm having an increasingly difficult time justifying the Sub2k over that gun, especially for rifle only shooters shooting that and perhaps a ruger 10/22...  When considering upgrade cost, the Ruger comes out at least $100 and up to $250 less in accessories and considering usual $75-100 price difference vs sub2k, that's an even price to $150+ cost savings going the ruger route.  Definitely food for thought.  Sub2k is faster to deploy, more compact, typically lighter, and better for one handed control and firing. 

Definitely try the two finger changer handle, if you're skipping the heavy.  Makes a major difference.  I tried the poly cover for standard charging handle and it only succeeded in pinching my finger.   Insofar as heavy charging handle, many 9mm Sub2k shooters have transitioned to heavy .40 buffer w/ no issues, which should suggest margin to transfer to heavy charging handle.  And if it doesn't work, it's a 1 minute part swap.  Effectively, I think it's fair to say factory spec is equivalent to AR w/ carbine buffer and standard spring, whereas upgrades can get you to AR equivalent of H1 buffer (if midlength, or H2 or H3 if carbine).  Especially if all your duty ammo is +p/equivalent, you should be golden (I think recoil springs are same across both calibers, but might want to verify).
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Hrfunk on December 04, 2018, 07:38:51 AM
I actually considered the Ruger carbine before going with the Kel-Tec. The biggest things that drove me toward the Sub2K were 1) the speed of deployment. Under stress I want the quickest, easiest platform to deploy; and, 2) the S2K could be converted to use S&W M&P magazines. Since I was paring it with an M&P (the same one that made an appearance in my second video), I wanted that compatibility. I'll look into the dust cover and the charging handle(s). Thanks again!

HRF

With a 7-10 lb trigger pull a metal trigger does much to improve the trigger w/ no effect on the actual mechanical functions of the gun.  Can't imagine that it would be a problem. 

Can't reiterate enough the dust cover.  Trigger guard locks it in just like it locks in the barrel.  Here: https://www.keltecweapons.com/dust-cover-451  Reduces potential to get stuff into the barrel and into the bolt/bolt tube. 

Sub2ks -- really the easiest fix for most folks' self defense use at self defense ranges would be a dual weapon light and laser. If mounting sight options to your HG, I'd recommend installing rail stabilizers that bolt to barrel and interface w/ HG to ensure repeatability.
One benefit of offset is that it pivots the charging handle away from your body and anything likely to tangle it, but also make bird winging more likely, which isn't preferable when working corners.  But I think you need to mount a rail and mount an offset to that in order to have folding clearance, which moves it more off the bore than you might like, potentially affecting cheekweld..

Don't get me wrong, I like the Sub2k, especially for what it is, but it's REALLY easy to spend $150-300 on prudent upgrades on the gun, with the lower # being upgrades I'd consider essential for fighting weapon.  Vs the new Ruger PC9 carbine, I'm having an increasingly difficult time justifying the Sub2k over that gun, especially for rifle only shooters shooting that and perhaps a ruger 10/22...  When considering upgrade cost, the Ruger comes out at least $100 and up to $250 less in accessories and considering usual $75-100 price difference vs sub2k, that's an even price to $150+ cost savings going the ruger route.  Definitely food for thought.  Sub2k is faster to deploy, more compact, typically lighter, and better for one handed control and firing. 

Definitely try the two finger changer handle, if you're skipping the heavy.  Makes a major difference.  I tried the poly cover for standard charging handle and it only succeeded in pinching my finger.   Insofar as heavy charging handle, many 9mm Sub2k shooters have transitioned to heavy .40 buffer w/ no issues, which should suggest margin to transfer to heavy charging handle.  And if it doesn't work, it's a 1 minute part swap.  Effectively, I think it's fair to say factory spec is equivalent to AR w/ carbine buffer and standard spring, whereas upgrades can get you to AR equivalent of H1 buffer (if midlength, or H2 or H3 if carbine).  Especially if all your duty ammo is +p/equivalent, you should be golden (I think recoil springs are same across both calibers, but might want to verify).
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on December 04, 2018, 10:20:44 PM
Yes, for your needs, totally agree w/ the selection. 

Just noting the total costs of ownership rather than just purchase pricepoint, now that the discussion is accessorizing/upgrading, price-points between these two platforms converge.  A tangent, but worth reiterating for folks coming through. 

There's zero reason that rugers can't have similar magwell conversions to sub2ks, but yes, they don't exist yet. 

Also, for extra/extended capacity mags, I personally lean towards glock mags over other makes as I find them to be more reliable/proven.  YMMV.  In fact, purchased glock pistols to pair w/ sub2k, rather than vice versa.  But last purchased when Gen1 Sub2ks were all that were available, and none of options aligned w/ handguns owned.

Again, appreciate you producing content, and appreciate you sharing your perspective -- and enjoy the seeking solutions/optimizations in a lot of your vids as well. 
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Hrfunk on December 17, 2018, 09:03:29 AM
I thought I would resurrect this thread for an update. Thus far, I've been carrying my backpack/messenger bag borne Kel-Tec Sub2000 for over a month. It has gone with me religiously when I'm working in the local school system. It has also gone along on several holiday shopping excursions (as a side note, the backpack has come in handy for stowing/carrying various items purchased during said excursions). It is obviously a bit more cumbersome than carrying a handgun alone, but once you become accustomed to it, it's not bad at all (so far, I haven't knocked anything off a shelf for bumped into another shopper with it). When times to remove the backpack have arisen, it has stayed beside me on a seat or on the floor between my feet. At all times in contact with me so I can feel it and know it is there. I am happy to report that no one has attacked the crowd of shoppers or a congregation of students while I've been carrying the S2K; but I find its presence comforting. As we saw recently with yet another terrorist attack on a Christmas shopping crowd in France, those who would kill us for simply not holding the same beliefs as them see this time of year as an "opportunity." The idea of armed and trained good guys in such an environment helps to ease my mind. Merry Christmas everyone!

Howard
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Blackwatch on December 17, 2018, 10:08:57 AM
I thought I would resurrect this thread for an update. Thus far, I've been carrying my backpack/messenger bag borne Kel-Tec Sub2000 for over a month. It has gone with me religiously when I'm working in the local school system. It has also gone along on several holiday shopping excursions (as a side note, the backpack has come in handy for stowing/carrying various items purchased during said excursions). It is obviously a bit more cumbersome than carrying a handgun alone, but once you become accustomed to it, it's not bad at all (so far, I haven't knocked anything off a shelf for bumped into another shopper with it). When times to remove the backpack have arisen, it has stayed beside me on a seat or on the floor between my feet. At all times in contact with me so I can feel it and know it is there. I am happy to report that no one has attacked the crowd of shoppers or a congregation of students while I've been carrying the S2K; but I find its presence comforting. As we saw recently with yet another terrorist attack on a Christmas shopping crowd in France, those who would kill us for simply not holding the same beliefs as them see this time of year as an "opportunity." The idea of armed and trained good guys in such an environment helps to ease my mind. Merry Christmas everyone!

Howard

I should have mine accompany me more often! Thanks for the prompt  :)
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Ron M. on December 25, 2018, 04:05:07 PM
A practical solution. I've found for my own use a Micro Roni with the extended stabilizer works better. I have a Sig Romeo 5 mounted to the rail and backup flip sights too. I already had 2 Glock 19s and the sight, so spending $200 for the platform and adding the integrated light was a better way for me to go. I keep the kit with a 15 round mag in the pistol and a 32 round mag tucked into the open end of the brace. I stuff the larger mag in my back pocket as I lock the brace open. The whole kit fits neatly into a computer bag or small ruck. 
Title: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: MuzzleBlastMD on December 25, 2018, 05:06:03 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/6f5309a7be98a547fa033ba0612fb0c0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/b7da37fa276c4e4e9ffb0e2346917482.jpg)

I already have a Roni Micro.  So my solution was an 11? Barrel.

I need to work on having it cycle with a suppressor, though.  So I ordered a couple of sets of recoil springs for reliable cycling with a can.  It works ok without a can.

This is the comparison amongst my Tavor, AR-15 and the Roni with an 11? barrel.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/b0c28c808b3618f7085fd00aff59327f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/35055ad7fb23c52fcfb2ccd9867e6ea2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/67bb5404b80ded6280e3058b8a502945.jpg)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on December 26, 2018, 11:47:37 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/6f5309a7be98a547fa033ba0612fb0c0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/b7da37fa276c4e4e9ffb0e2346917482.jpg)

I already have a Roni Micro.  So my solution was an 11? Barrel.

I need to work on having it cycle with a suppressor, though.  So I ordered a couple of sets of recoil springs for reliable cycling with a can.  It works ok without a can.

This is the comparison amongst my Tavor, AR-15 and the Roni with an 11? barrel.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/b0c28c808b3618f7085fd00aff59327f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/35055ad7fb23c52fcfb2ccd9867e6ea2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/67bb5404b80ded6280e3058b8a502945.jpg)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

How much did this setup put you back?

My rough estimate would be $550 Glock Handgun, $250 MicroRoni, at least $200 for the barrel = starting at $1k w/o any optic.  That's ~2.5 Sub2ks at today's prices.
Title: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: MuzzleBlastMD on December 26, 2018, 11:50:02 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/6f5309a7be98a547fa033ba0612fb0c0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/b7da37fa276c4e4e9ffb0e2346917482.jpg)

I already have a Roni Micro.  So my solution was an 11? Barrel.

I need to work on having it cycle with a suppressor, though.  So I ordered a couple of sets of recoil springs for reliable cycling with a can.  It works ok without a can.

This is the comparison amongst my Tavor, AR-15 and the Roni with an 11? barrel.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/b0c28c808b3618f7085fd00aff59327f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/35055ad7fb23c52fcfb2ccd9867e6ea2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181225/67bb5404b80ded6280e3058b8a502945.jpg)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

How much did this setup put you back?

My rough estimate would be $550 Glock Handgun, $250 MicroRoni, at least $200 for the barrel = starting at $1k w/o any optic.  That's ~2.5 Sub2ks at today's prices.

Well, the Glock was free (look up Humpty Dumpty Glock).  I paid for the Roni which was a Gen 2 at $330 and the 10 inch barrel was $180.  Yeah, if I had to buy a Glock 19 it would be a lot more. I have 3 Glock 19 and 1 Glock 19X.


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Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Hammer Time on December 27, 2018, 12:09:28 PM
I've been enjoying this series, Hrfunk. I purchased a Sub 2K Gen 2 last year and set it up to take Sig P226 mags (though it's probably going to get converted again to take CZ 75 mags, since that's the only pistol I want to shoot anymore!). And I have to say that my Sub 2K has been rock solid and eaten everything I've put through it without issue. Among the upgrades I did to it are the M*Carbo spring kit and flat trigger, polished stainless feed ramp, taller rear sight, muzzle brake, extended mag release , Magpul AFG-2 grip, etc. It's a really fun little gun to shoot, and a great practical solution for an easily packable 'truck gun.'

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/JaTPzO.jpg)
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Hrfunk on December 27, 2018, 12:13:57 PM
I've been enjoying this series, Hrfunk. I purchased a Sub 2K Gen 2 last year and set it up to take Sig P226 mags (though it's probably going to get converted again to take CZ 75 mags, since that's the only pistol I want to shoot anymore!). And I have to say that my Sub 2K has been rock solid and eaten everything I've put through it without issue. Among the upgrades I did to it are the M*Carbo spring kit and flat trigger, polished stainless feed ramp, taller rear sight, muzzle brake, extended mag release , Magpul AFG-2 grip, etc. It's a really fun little gun to shoot, and a great practical solution for an easily packable 'truck gun.'

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/JaTPzO.jpg)

The more I use mine, the more I like it. It continues to be the best solution for the task I acquired it for.

Howard
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Ron M. on December 30, 2018, 12:54:29 PM
Probably should have included photos before. The nice thing about the extended brace is it locks in the folded position unlike the short brace. It's long enough that it shoulders the same as the SBR stock.

(https://i.imgur.com/YPBS8Y3m.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/H6XuwyJm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Lw6q8pum.jpg)
Title: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: MuzzleBlastMD on January 02, 2019, 09:19:04 PM
In summary, I tried different brands of ammo, but the Roni as it stood, was not working with the suppressor. It was OK without a can. Thanks to Solscud for his YouTube video to give me the idea, and LOS from AR15DotCom to suggest cutting what I cut.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/feae073056000fb34d06de524b6ed834.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/fdd9793aea48b764264cd94008323fcf.jpg)

You see the rub point on the dorsal barrel margin.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/9c6db09e7d312fdb0f4131ffdb16f797.jpg)

I took off the excess steel, but questions were raised if the barrel would still contact the concussion device.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/d0e3ec706aaad10c9cc56c53f6950394.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/22c7b282f5aa7fd27cb79f02e40692de.jpg)

It was not pretty, either.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/d06cdbcc859c5cddc7283e94b886171f.jpg)

I mounted it onto my Bench vise and I let the dremel have its way.  Because of the protruding end of the Concussion device I was just going to cut it first, then trim the edges.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/2e1a1fc5fdd3550f076adde7c14605d6.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/b5a62f50619241179490469c5ed15d41.jpg)

I sanded and polished the near finished piece.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/8a9729020a0fa7fc180c473b7de0f2fc.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/a3a1ca18306a99cf76e9cb1b774adc9d.jpg)

The daunting task of reassembly was intimidating.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/d231af659eb081ccb07a4109be01a6ef.jpg)

Because the rail screws did not loosen I did not bother removing them.

I placed the detent spring of the rail release and pushed the parts together, and I hammered with a plastic mallet.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/93b4cb2399c6e652fafa666a803e5c4d.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/01e66c3503352561365a9856a0dad127.jpg)

The rest was easy

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/ea2cf143dbc949c9a1a2b43d2736047d.jpg)

I now have clearance for the barrel.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/91e47678f5352537d9011c4c8a2e698d.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/2276bafc9c31700255eb5d6091b6c17a.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190103/b7c21fb9b55768da433555a5cdac1c2e.jpg)
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on January 03, 2019, 01:57:45 PM
In summary, I tried different brands of ammo, but the Roni as it stood, was not working with the suppressor. It was OK without a can. Thanks to Solscud for his YouTube video to give me the idea, and LOS from AR15DotCom to suggest cutting what I cut.

Interesting, and thanks for sharing.  But for me, the cost plus the process just reinforces going w/ the sub2k, or other standalone rifle platform.  But Maryland does have some funky firearms laws--and uncertain how much that played into your decision making process. 
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on January 03, 2019, 02:09:57 PM
I've been enjoying this series, Hrfunk. I purchased a Sub 2K Gen 2 last year and set it up to take Sig P226 mags (though it's probably going to get converted again to take CZ 75 mags, since that's the only pistol I want to shoot anymore!). And I have to say that my Sub 2K has been rock solid and eaten everything I've put through it without issue. Among the upgrades I did to it are the M*Carbo spring kit and flat trigger, polished stainless feed ramp, taller rear sight, muzzle brake, extended mag release , Magpul AFG-2 grip, etc. It's a really fun little gun to shoot, and a great practical solution for an easily packable 'truck gun.'

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/JaTPzO.jpg)

Looks great.  The forend on V2 is narrower than I prefer, but personal preference.  I'd probably install a rail, or even an extra tall rail, and then mount the AFG to that rather than direct mount.

Overall, V2 is a more robust setup and saves over $100 in mods and considerable time vs V1 to get into a similar configuration. 

A couple suggestions, and don't recall if mentioned previously here: 
-I would recommend a dual light and laser w/ pressure pad over separate light and red dot if you're going to be regularly folding the gun.  Lasers are also much more functional over irons at night, especially when your weapon light doesn't illuminate your front sight post.  Also, there's a bit of an intimidation/hollywood effect if for instance you have a laser on a home intruder -- much more intimidating and prudent than Joe Biden's shotgun pump and shooting in the air...
-I did install a hogue grip sleeve on my gen 1 to mitigate some of the sharp edges on the 2 piece handle and improve grip.
-Muzzle brakes on 9mm are fairly ineffective due to minimal muzzle blast, especially out of 16" barrels.  Granted they're often priced similarly to 9mm flash hiders and often weigh less than linear comps and blast cans, but seem to have less desireable performance in a self-defense situation than all of the three aformentioned devices which mitigate flash and/or blast/noise to you the shooter if needing to utilize your weapon indoors...
As always, YMMV.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: MuzzleBlastMD on January 03, 2019, 03:12:50 PM
In summary, I tried different brands of ammo, but the Roni as it stood, was not working with the suppressor. It was OK without a can. Thanks to Solscud for his YouTube video to give me the idea, and LOS from AR15DotCom to suggest cutting what I cut.

Interesting, and thanks for sharing.  But for me, the cost plus the process just reinforces going w/ the sub2k, or other standalone rifle platform.  But Maryland does have some funky firearms laws--and uncertain how much that played into your decision making process.

I had 4 Glock 19s and a Roni.  Otherwise the Sub 2K would have been a strong consideration....


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Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on January 03, 2019, 05:47:00 PM
In summary, I tried different brands of ammo, but the Roni as it stood, was not working with the suppressor. It was OK without a can. Thanks to Solscud for his YouTube video to give me the idea, and LOS from AR15DotCom to suggest cutting what I cut.

Interesting, and thanks for sharing.  But for me, the cost plus the process just reinforces going w/ the sub2k, or other standalone rifle platform.  But Maryland does have some funky firearms laws--and uncertain how much that played into your decision making process.

I had 4 Glock 19s and a Roni.  Otherwise the Sub 2K would have been a strong consideration....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Roger.  I just wasn't certain if MD is one of the states/countries w/ weird laws that allowed standard capacity semi-auto pistol mags (including greater than 10 rounds) in pistols but has limitations for 10 rounds or less in rifles...  Canada was like that but think they modified (originally law had no prohibition on using pistol mags in rifles, so rifles that used pistol mags were favored over the 5 [IIRC] round limit in rifles), and I think at least one the US states had similar laws. 

If those different standards applied similarly in MD, that add'l capacity in a 9mm pistol would make the Roni a no brainer. 
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Hammer Time on January 03, 2019, 05:59:06 PM
Looks great.  The forend on V2 is narrower than I prefer, but personal preference.  I'd probably install a rail, or even an extra tall rail, and then mount the AFG to that rather than direct mount.

Overall, V2 is a more robust setup and saves over $100 in mods and considerable time vs V1 to get into a similar configuration. 

A couple suggestions, and don't recall if mentioned previously here: 
-I would recommend a dual light and laser w/ pressure pad over separate light and red dot if you're going to be regularly folding the gun.  Lasers are also much more functional over irons at night, especially when your weapon light doesn't illuminate your front sight post.  Also, there's a bit of an intimidation/hollywood effect if for instance you have a laser on a home intruder -- much more intimidating and prudent than Joe Biden's shotgun pump and shooting in the air...
-I did install a hogue grip sleeve on my gen 1 to mitigate some of the sharp edges on the 2 piece handle and improve grip.
-Muzzle brakes on 9mm are fairly ineffective due to minimal muzzle blast, especially out of 16" barrels.  Granted they're often priced similarly to 9mm flash hiders and often weigh less than linear comps and blast cans, but seem to have less desireable performance in a self-defense situation than all of the three aformentioned devices which mitigate flash and/or blast/noise to you the shooter if needing to utilize your weapon indoors...
As always, YMMV.

Thanks for your thoughts. The light and red dot combo on this is definitely in continual evolution. And because I bought this specifically for its "foldability" I don't use the red dot on it all that often and instead rely primarily on the iron sights. I've experiments with a 45? offset mount for the red dot as well, but it never really worked for me all that well, and it still interfered with the folding. A laser (or laser/light combo) at some point is tempting...
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: MuzzleBlastMD on January 03, 2019, 06:01:57 PM
In summary, I tried different brands of ammo, but the Roni as it stood, was not working with the suppressor. It was OK without a can. Thanks to Solscud for his YouTube video to give me the idea, and LOS from AR15DotCom to suggest cutting what I cut.

Interesting, and thanks for sharing.  But for me, the cost plus the process just reinforces going w/ the sub2k, or other standalone rifle platform.  But Maryland does have some funky firearms laws--and uncertain how much that played into your decision making process.

I had 4 Glock 19s and a Roni.  Otherwise the Sub 2K would have been a strong consideration....


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Roger.  I just wasn't certain if MD is one of the states/countries w/ weird laws that allowed standard capacity semi-auto pistol mags (including greater than 10 rounds) in pistols but has limitations for 10 rounds or less in rifles...  Canada was like that but think they modified (originally law had no prohibition on using pistol mags in rifles, so rifles that used pistol mags were favored over the 5 [IIRC] round limit in rifles), and I think at least one the US states had similar laws. 

If those different standards applied similarly in MD, that add'l capacity in a 9mm pistol would make the Roni a no brainer.
I?m in Virginia, a free state.

MD is my degree. I?m a diagnostic radiologist.


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Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on January 03, 2019, 06:14:55 PM
With that larger aperture and taller rear iron sight, it's got you covered during full daylight situations.  I have an aftermarket steel w/ fiber optic insert front sight on my Gen1 that further improves.  The factory front sight was junk, but Gen1 and Gen2 front sight blocks are quite different. 
Would a red dot be faster than irons?  Absolutely.  Is it needed or necessary for most self defense situations if you have irons, white light, and laser?  No, not IMO.

And if your gun is intended for self defense, a laser is visible under pretty much under any light condition indoors.

Further on red dot -- for me, the compact storage and fast deployment was a major draw in appeal.  All red dot options that allow folding take several add'l seconds to minutes to setup when in initially unfolding/deploying the rifle.  But red dot does save fractional to perhaps a full second or two in shooting speed vs irons.  A tradeoff either way, and ultimately a question of priorities.

Or at least this is my current thinking. 

Also, forgot to mention, there are front handguard stabilization brackets that clamp to the rail and interface w/ the mlok slots for the Gen 2 guns to mitigate the rail wobble that changes your zero when optic is mounted.  Whether red dot or laser, might be worth considering that addition to your setup as well.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on January 03, 2019, 06:27:56 PM
I?m in Virginia, a free state.

MD is my degree. I?m a diagnostic radiologist.


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Whoops, sorry for the confusion. 

VA is a free state, for now...  Fortunately, your state elections are lower turnout due to being held in odd, nonfederal election years.

Presidential vote VA went from voting AGAINST Bill Clinton for President in both 1992 and 1996 to voting FOR Hillary Clinton in 2016 and Barack Obama in both 2008 and 2012.  GW Bush did win VA's vote in both 2000 and 2004.

Point being, w/ VA being increasingly dominated by elitist and liberal-leaning DC suburbs, erosion of VA's 2A rights is almost certain to occur in the near-future.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Hrfunk on January 04, 2019, 07:45:09 AM
With that larger aperture and taller rear iron sight, it's got you covered during full daylight situations.  I have an aftermarket steel w/ fiber optic insert front sight on my Gen1 that further improves.  The factory front sight was junk, but Gen1 and Gen2 front sight blocks are quite different. 
Would a red dot be faster than irons?  Absolutely.  Is it needed or necessary for most self defense situations if you have irons, white light, and laser?  No, not IMO.

And if your gun is intended for self defense, a laser is visible under pretty much under any light condition indoors.

Further on red dot -- for me, the compact storage and fast deployment was a major draw in appeal.  All red dot options that allow folding take several add'l seconds to minutes to setup when in initially unfolding/deploying the rifle.  But red dot does save fractional to perhaps a full second or two in shooting speed vs irons.  A tradeoff either way, and ultimately a question of priorities.

Or at least this is my current thinking. 

Also, forgot to mention, there are front handguard stabilization brackets that clamp to the rail and interface w/ the mlok slots for the Gen 2 guns to mitigate the rail wobble that changes your zero when optic is mounted.  Whether red dot or laser, might be worth considering that addition to your setup as well.

Thanks for the comment! I'm not a big fan of lasers, especially at distance. Tracking the dot is a little like watching a fly trying to get through a window screen. It bounces all over the place and makes accurate shooting somewhat iffy. At this point, I'm waiting very impatiently for the MCarbo optic mount. If it works the way I THINK its going to, then the optic should pretty much self-deploy as the S2K is unfolded. If that mount turns out to be a solid base for an optic, then I will almost certainly add a red-dot to my carbine. If not, then I'll stick with the iron sights until something better comes along.

Thanks again,
HRF
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: MuzzleBlastMD on January 04, 2019, 09:39:24 AM
I?m in Virginia, a free state.

MD is my degree. I?m a diagnostic radiologist.


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Whoops, sorry for the confusion. 

VA is a free state, for now...  Fortunately, your state elections are lower turnout due to being held in odd, nonfederal election years.

Presidential vote VA went from voting AGAINST Bill Clinton for President in both 1992 and 1996 to voting FOR Hillary Clinton in 2016 and Barack Obama in both 2008 and 2012.  GW Bush did win VA's vote in both 2000 and 2004.

Point being, w/ VA being increasingly dominated by elitist and liberal-leaning DC suburbs, erosion of VA's 2A rights is almost certain to occur in the near-future.

Yes, unfortunately.

I may have to move to SC, NC or GA, if that happens.

The cluster of voting in NoVa is what is dictating the rest of the state.


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Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Hammer Time on January 04, 2019, 09:45:00 AM
...At this point, I'm waiting very impatiently for the MCarbo optic mount. If it works the way I THINK its going to, then the optic should pretty much self-deploy as the S2K is unfolded. If that mount turns out to be a solid base for an optic, then I will almost certainly add a red-dot to my carbine. If not, then I'll stick with the iron sights until something better comes along.

This. I've been hearing rumors of M*Carbo's optic mount for some time...I hope we see it soon.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on January 04, 2019, 09:27:32 PM
Yes, unfortunately.

I may have to move to SC, NC or GA, if that happens.

The cluster of voting in NoVa is what is dictating the rest of the state.


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SC is fairly strong insofar as 2A goes, but both NC and GA are following closely behind VA in becoming more liberal states due to demographic reasons.  Unless you're wanting to stay coastal, I'd personally look to WV or KY for 2A reasons, and a $ typically goes further on the real estate front.  Depending on where you're located, can likely also find property that's driveable to your current locale. 

TN is also trending more liberal and suburban-dominated w/ all growth and out-of-staters flocking to Nashville.  It's roughly a decade behind VA in that trend but nevertheless preceding down that path.  MO and AR both seem to be holding conservative, if not becoming more so and somewhat similar terrain and culture to the more typical Appalachia. 

Yes, definitely get VA's political dynamics -- lived and worked in DC in the political space for a few years and remain in that mix.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on January 04, 2019, 09:43:26 PM
Thanks for the comment! I'm not a big fan of lasers, especially at distance. Tracking the dot is a little like watching a fly trying to get through a window screen. It bounces all over the place and makes accurate shooting somewhat iffy. At this point, I'm waiting very impatiently for the MCarbo optic mount. If it works the way I THINK its going to, then the optic should pretty much self-deploy as the S2K is unfolded. If that mount turns out to be a solid base for an optic, then I will almost certainly add a red-dot to my carbine. If not, then I'll stick with the iron sights until something better comes along.

Thanks again,
HRF

FWIW, the bouncing laser does apply to handguns, but I find that it doesn't really apply in a meaningful way to rifles.   I also find lasers on any weapon to be a great tool for diagnosing any issues with technique on any weapon (but especially pistols, and including when dry firing) -- bouncing indicates an issue w/ the shooter, not the tools.

To that end, I carry a 10/22 w/ lasermax's 10/22 laser mounted (replaces forend band) on it most evenings and nights on my property as my varmint rifle for coons, fox, and coyotes (when aware of coyotes or hunting them, I use an AR in 5.56, but .22lr when shooting CCI velocitors is capable of humane coyote kills given adequate shot placement).  Have some poultry that roost in trees and other livestock the 'yotes pursue.  And I've never had a problem w/ bouncing laser affecting either accuracy or ability to take stationary or moving varmints.

When properly shouldering the rifle, the laser dot is just above and partially obscured by the front sight post, and white light mounted to side ride of lasermax also illuminates the front sight post's brass insert.

If you're looking CDNN has the 10/22 laser for $25 or so right now.  Originally retailed at $120 IIRC.

For the Sub2k, I am currently looking at a light w/ laser -- just haven't decided on which yet.  Have been spending some time finalizing that build out and think it's finally nearing it's final evolution for the forseeable future -- having figured out where it excels, and how it best fits into my system...
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: RSR on January 04, 2019, 11:34:41 PM
...At this point, I'm waiting very impatiently for the MCarbo optic mount. If it works the way I THINK its going to, then the optic should pretty much self-deploy as the S2K is unfolded. If that mount turns out to be a solid base for an optic, then I will almost certainly add a red-dot to my carbine. If not, then I'll stick with the iron sights until something better comes along.

This. I've been hearing rumors of M*Carbo's optic mount for some time...I hope we see it soon.

I was completely unaware of this forthcoming offering.  Very cool and looks to be the ticket.  I posted a bit of a novel on their forum just now regarding the design iteration released just today.  It looks like they're having trouble perfecting the hinge mechanism from both production and function standpoints.  I don't care for the mechanism on the latest and question some of the attempt at perfect rigidity considering it's mounting to polymer clamshell handguards.  Regardless, it looks like they're committed to getting it right and look forward to their ultimate solution. 

Early youtube video, just b/c.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFZ_Z1s2ae4
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: MuzzleBlastMD on January 05, 2019, 10:10:52 AM
...At this point, I'm waiting very impatiently for the MCarbo optic mount. If it works the way I THINK its going to, then the optic should pretty much self-deploy as the S2K is unfolded. If that mount turns out to be a solid base for an optic, then I will almost certainly add a red-dot to my carbine. If not, then I'll stick with the iron sights until something better comes along.

This. I've been hearing rumors of M*Carbo's optic mount for some time...I hope we see it soon.

I was completely unaware of this forthcoming offering.  Very cool and looks to be the ticket.  I posted a bit of a novel on their forum just now regarding the design iteration released just today.  It looks like they're having trouble perfecting the hinge mechanism from both production and function standpoints.  I don't care for the mechanism on the latest and question some of the attempt at perfect rigidity considering it's mounting to polymer clamshell handguards.  Regardless, it looks like they're committed to getting it right and look forward to their ultimate solution. 

Early youtube video, just b/c.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFZ_Z1s2ae4

I?m so impressed by MCarbo.  That would definitely work, assuming it keeps zero.


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Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 05, 2019, 11:52:53 AM
I picked up a Millett quick release mount for mine -- but haven't had a chance to try it out, yet.   It's aluminum, not plastic, and easily installed or removed with the sight on it.  (Only $18.95.)  I couldn't find a good plastic quick-release mount with good reviews that had the height I wanted. The Millett has a great reputation, but I haven't had a chance to try it out, yet. 

I can shoot it at an indoor range where I normally shoot, but that won't be good for sighting it in for greater distances.  It will probably tell me whether it'll hold zero as I hope.  With 9mm (what I have, 50yds and 100 yrds are supposed to both be the same (given the rise and drop hits those point.  Up close (50') it'll probably be a little high.  (An earlier 9mm sub-2000 I owned was dead on at about 30' -- with the stock sights, and the bullet still rising.

I have upgraded my Sub2000 with most of the M*Carbo upgrades (about $180 worth.)  Got a tube cover (for cheek weld) from Tacti-Cool, and their bolt release cover, as well.   I got a GREAT PRICE for the sub-2000 on Gun Broker  ($325) -- guess I just timed my last bid right, for a change.  I've picked up a SIG Romeo5 red dot, too -- also on sale from Palmetto State Armory.

It may be several weeks before I can try it out at appropriate distances.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: ben512 on January 20, 2019, 11:57:05 AM
They have a folding optic mount that allows you to keep a red dot mounted and fold the 2000
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 20, 2019, 02:16:17 PM
Quote from: ben512
They have a folding optic mount that allows you to keep a red dot mounted and fold the 2000

I've seen the folding mount, and it is said to hold zero, but the I know that the Merritt I got, which has a quick release, also holds zero when remounted.  That folding mount costs almost $100, while my two quick release mounts cost less than $20 each.  The Merritt quick release mount I've got (with the SIG Romeo5 already on it) probably takes maybe less than a minute to mount.

With the folding mount I'm not sure you can easily move the mounted sight out of the way to use the factory sights on the gun -- which you might want to do if you have a dead battery or something goes wrong with the electronics.  I don't know how hard it might be to take off the Sub-2000.

I've got another Red Dot system and it's mounted on the other quick release mount, but I've not sighted it in, yet.  If it holds zero I'll have two   two different red dot systems, both with sturdy quick-release aluminum mounts.  I'll probably end up mounting the second sight system on another gun.   Both the SIG Romeo5, another Red Dot, and the two quick-release mounts cost me less than a total of $160 delivered.

In theory, it would be nice to have a red dot sight that could be co-witnessed with the factory sights, but doing that would force you into a less comfortable position when using the factory sights. Higher factory-type sights would be the solution, there -- as the stock sights make you bend you head down awkwardly.   

Ignoring the factory sights is the best path, as long as your other optical system works.  A detachable Monte Carlo cheek rest (also using a quick-release or folding design) would probably be a big seller if it could be done in a way that doesn't interfere with the bolt handle as the gun is fired.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: wanderson on February 02, 2019, 09:24:47 AM
I think sights & optics has always been the weak spot in an otherwise excellent design of the Sub2k.

I?ve tried quite a few different combos on my gen 2. Wound up with a Streamlight TRL-4 light/laser down low and a Bushnell TRS-25 red dot on a high rise QD mount. I filed the top of the railed handguard flat as mine wasn?t flat side-side at the seam. And swapped in a KNS cross hair front sight post.

I don?t like anything that hangs off the side when folded, as is it easily slips anywhere when folded and hides in my laptop bag while it?s carrying a laptop.  Mine stays in a drawer in a locked tool cabinet that?s so shallow some of my double stack handguns don?t fit, this does.

I do think the video above of the new hinged receiver mount is the best option I?ve seen so far.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: Walt Sherrill on February 02, 2019, 10:02:41 AM
I've had a chance to use the Merritt (quick release) mount and the SIG Romeo5 red dot sight on my Sub-2000 several times now, and it seems to hold Zero quite well.   My son is into ARs, and he also has a SIG MPX (which is 9mm) and I've found that the Sub-2000 shoots quite well when compared to the much, much pricier SIG MPX.  (We both use the SIG Romeo5 sight, which have been on sale recently in the $100 range.)   At 50 yards -- I haven't tried accuracy at greater distances yet -- I find that the Sub-2000 and MPX are shoot-alikes in terms of performance.  My grandson, who is becoming a pretty adept shooter LOVES the Sub-2000!  Even my son, the died-in-the-wool SIG AR fan -- commented on how well the Sub-2000 shoots.  (I don't think he's going to sell his MPX and get 3-4 Sub-2000, but that would show the difference in costs.

I tried a Monstrumm quick release mount that seemed to be roughly equivalent to the Millett, but there was no comparison.   When you've release the mounted sight from the sub-2000, the attachment mechanism onf the Monstrumm unit appears ready to fall apart -- a ring and nut on the other end of the lever is very loose and nothing seems to be holding those pieces on the cross bar except tightness when mounted.  The Monstrumm unit will go in the parts bin, bu I suspect it will eventually be thrown out.  A second Millett came yesterday. 
I got the Sub-2000 Gen 2 for $325 on Gun Broker, and $25 shipping -- and added about $200 for all the other parts (excluding the Romeo5, which was $109), and the gun is one of the best values I've ever gotten for money spent. 

You can run the sub-2000 without all of the upgrades and still be quite happy with it.
Title: Re: Kel-Tec Sub2000 Evaluation Complete
Post by: MuzzleBlastMD on February 02, 2019, 10:38:08 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190202/83819149cc355a8a156566f3555fb558.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190202/2eb16c7740776daf42dc20ce3c9a861c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190202/45835c8d0b56eb47a45b00a86fb80016.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190202/5735ec59c1e5e2e5d29abd2367172ec4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190202/85b99bbfad2ab804b82e04ec6f663460.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190202/bcd36621098692f0414ac10f4e2d0a00.jpg)

I was concerned about the Midwest industries swivel mount keeping zero.

I bought a thin mount 45 degree but it didn?t let the Keltec Sub 2000 (Sub 2K) lock into place. So I decided to get an M-Lok Rail and mount the 45 degree mount onto it, instead,

I put the optic on the left since I read about blowback when shooting. 

I wanted a light on it, too, so I used another M-Lok rail on the right. I mounted an angled foregrip for stability.

I haven?t zeroed the optic or shot the Keltec Sub 2000 (Sub 2K) at all.


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