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CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ75, 75b, 75 SAO - All Full-Size Pistols => Topic started by: Metal Wonder Nine Guy on December 30, 2018, 05:38:09 PM

Title: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Metal Wonder Nine Guy on December 30, 2018, 05:38:09 PM
For those of you who like putting the hammer down on your manual safety 75s, do you ease the hammer all the way down or do you let the hammer stop at the half cock notch? Or is it even possible to let the hammer rest in the half cock notch on the manual safety  models? Thanks!
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on December 30, 2018, 06:18:54 PM
The best method is to BLOCK the rear of the slide and FR with your off hand thumb.  Put the pistol in a safe position.  Now, press the trigger and immediately let off the trigger - once your finger is off the trigger it is impossible to have the gun discharge if you have a FP Block.  Now, the hammer will set to half cock - and you roll your thumb out of the way and you are ready to holster.  I fire on DA at the range hundreds of times like this to practice DA then SA, or DA only. 

"Pinching the hammer" as MANY touted reviewers show is harder and not as safe.  When you BLOCK the slide with the thumb, it is impossible to drop the hammer on the FP and discharge the pistol.

BTW, halfcock is easier to shoot from and aids in accuracy because it shortens travel.  No reason to lower all the way.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: larryflew on December 30, 2018, 09:24:16 PM
Similar method is pinching between thumb and middle finger with index finger between hammer and FP.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Tyerone on December 30, 2018, 09:42:27 PM
The best method is to BLOCK the rear of the slide and FR with your off hand thumb.  Put the pistol in a safe position.  Now, press the trigger and immediately let off the trigger - once your finger is off the trigger it is impossible to have the gun discharge if you have a FP Block.  Now, the hammer will set to half cock - and you roll your thumb out of the way and you are ready to holster.  I fire on DA at the range hundreds of times like this to practice DA then SA, or DA only. 

"Pinching the hammer" as MANY touted reviewers show is harder and not as safe.  When you BLOCK the slide with the thumb, it is impossible to drop the hammer on the FP and discharge the pistol.

BTW, halfcock is easier to shoot from and aids in accuracy because it shortens travel.  No reason to lower all the way.

I almost completely agree.

Since I sometimes pocket holster carry my Ra mi, I do lower the hammer all the way down so less likely for the hammer to snag on the draw.  By doing so, however, one must keep the booger finger on the trigger longer, therefore the firing pin block is not therefor backup safety during this full decock.  Once fully decocked it is safe and the firing pin block is active.  This is contrary to the original M1911 and M1911A1 where cocked and locked is the only real safe method for chambered carry.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on December 30, 2018, 11:25:09 PM
I carry Guns with FPBs.  I am willing to carry a preB hammer on half cock.  For some that is heresy I know.  Hammer fully down is really no safer other than a longer pull.  In a pocket it may prove less of a snag though.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Metal Wonder Nine Guy on December 31, 2018, 12:12:40 PM
The best method is to BLOCK the rear of the slide and FR with your off hand thumb.  Put the pistol in a safe position.  Now, press the trigger and immediately let off the trigger - once your finger is off the trigger it is impossible to have the gun discharge if you have a FP Block.  Now, the hammer will set to half cock - and you roll your thumb out of the way and you are ready to holster.  I fire on DA at the range hundreds of times like this to practice DA then SA, or DA only. 

"Pinching the hammer" as MANY touted reviewers show is harder and not as safe.  When you BLOCK the slide with the thumb, it is impossible to drop the hammer on the FP and discharge the pistol.

BTW, halfcock is easier to shoot from and aids in accuracy because it shortens travel.  No reason to lower all the way.
That and the trigger is closer to your finger in half cock mode rather than having the trigger go all the way forward for a full DA trigger pull. Having medium sized/ average hands, that's definitely a plus for me.

Pinching the hammer has always seemed like a good way to lose your grip on the hammer when you don't want to. There doesn't seem to be a lot of area on a CZ ring hammer to grab onto as compared to a spur hammer or something like a 92FS hammer or Sig P226 hammer.

Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 01, 2019, 05:49:52 PM
Quote
Pinching the hammer has always seemed like a good way to lose your grip on the hammer when you don't want to. There doesn't seem to be a lot of area on a CZ ring hammer to grab onto as compared to a spur hammer or something like a 92FS hammer or Sig P226 hammer.
Excellent points sir.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Metal Wonder Nine Guy on January 02, 2019, 09:26:51 AM
One other question- the safety cannot be put on if the hammer is at half cock, right?
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 02, 2019, 09:55:44 AM
No, not on a CZ.  I think this works on a Tanfoglio or Canik though.  Other than keeping it that way on a night stand I wouldn’t use it that way.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: larryflew on January 02, 2019, 01:54:39 PM
Canik 55 is like CZ, no safety can be on other than cocked and locked.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CrazyDave on January 02, 2019, 02:02:46 PM
One other question- the safety cannot be put on if the hammer is at half cock, right?

I am no expert, but my new 75 compact, safety model will go into safety at what I would call quarter cocked, first notch off hammer down.   Most of the drag of a D/A trigger still, but yet a safety.   I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 02, 2019, 08:29:38 PM
Caniks are LIKE a CZ but have a different fire control group.  I Canik manual safety can be put ON in the hammer down, decocked, and fully cocked position. 

Also, NO CZ manual safety can be engaged with the hammer in the half cock or hammer down position.  If it does, you need to call CZ USA and talk to them - your gun is broke.

The SAFEtY FEATURE we are talking about is the length of DA pull and weight of the trigger pull from either a fully or partially decocked position. Hammer that is at half/quarter cock is STILL in DA mode and is harder to inadvertently engage to fire the weapon. 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: larryflew on January 03, 2019, 12:08:25 AM
Caniks are LIKE a CZ but have a different fire control group.  I Canik manual safety can be put ON in the hammer down, decocked, and fully cocked position. 



My 55 is just like my 75B's in that the safety will only work when fully cocked. Not sure if anything changed as this is one of the first Canik imports from the couple months that Canik USA was in business.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CrazyDave on January 03, 2019, 02:40:43 AM
Caniks are LIKE a CZ but have a different fire control group.  I Canik manual safety can be put ON in the hammer down, decocked, and fully cocked position. 

Also, NO CZ manual safety can be engaged with the hammer in the half cock or hammer down position.  If it does, you need to call CZ USA and talk to them - your gun is broke.

The SAFEtY FEATURE we are talking about is the length of DA pull and weight of the trigger pull from either a fully or partially decocked position. Hammer that is at half/quarter cock is STILL in DA mode and is harder to inadvertently engage to fire the weapon.
I have a perfectly fine CZ 75 compact that the safety works at 1/4 cock, it is a foot from me.  Are you suggesting there is something wrong with it? I am new to CZ and only have a decocker model and this.  Sorry for my ignorance.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Tyerone on January 03, 2019, 09:18:44 AM
Caniks are LIKE a CZ but have a different fire control group.  I Canik manual safety can be put ON in the hammer down, decocked, and fully cocked position. 

Also, NO CZ manual safety can be engaged with the hammer in the half cock or hammer down position.  If it does, you need to call CZ USA and talk to them - your gun is broke.

The SAFEtY FEATURE we are talking about is the length of DA pull and weight of the trigger pull from either a fully or partially decocked position. Hammer that is at half/quarter cock is STILL in DA mode and is harder to inadvertently engage to fire the weapon.
I have a perfectly fine CZ 75 compact that the safety works at 1/4 cock, it is a foot from me.  Are you suggesting there is something wrong with it? I am new to CZ and only have a decocker model and this.  Sorry for my ignorance.

YES -- UNLESS you have had the hammer replaced with something like the CGW Race Hammer or Competition Hammer.  Even still one should NOT engage the safety unless the hammer is fully cocked.

This feature from most stock CZ duty/SD guns is so when carrying in DA first shot, the gun will go bang as expected by merely yanking the trigger -- no safety to disengage.  As others hame mentioned, Caniks and others are designed out of the gate with the ability to engage the hammer regardless of SA or DA (not my preference for a SD gun carried with hammer down or at partial cock).

So, has your piece been worked on?
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CrazyDave on January 04, 2019, 04:51:39 AM
Caniks are LIKE a CZ but have a different fire control group.  I Canik manual safety can be put ON in the hammer down, decocked, and fully cocked position. 

Also, NO CZ manual safety can be engaged with the hammer in the half cock or hammer down position.  If it does, you need to call CZ USA and talk to them - your gun is broke.

The SAFEtY FEATURE we are talking about is the length of DA pull and weight of the trigger pull from either a fully or partially decocked position. Hammer that is at half/quarter cock is STILL in DA mode and is harder to inadvertently engage to fire the weapon.
I have a perfectly fine CZ 75 compact that the safety works at 1/4 cock, it is a foot from me.  Are you suggesting there is something wrong with it? I am new to CZ and only have a decocker model and this.  Sorry for my ignorance.

YES -- UNLESS you have had the hammer replaced with something like the CGW Race Hammer or Competition Hammer.  Even still one should NOT engage the safety unless the hammer is fully cocked.

This feature from most stock CZ duty/SD guns is so when carrying in DA first shot, the gun will go bang as expected by merely yanking the trigger -- no safety to disengage.  As others hame mentioned, Caniks and others are designed out of the gate with the ability to engage the hammer regardless of SA or DA (not my preference for a SD gun carried with hammer down or at partial cock).

So, has your piece been worked on?

Thanks, there has been no work done to it, it was purchased a few weeks ago NIB.   It seemingly has no other problems, runs great.  I will look into this anomaly more.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Metal Wonder Nine Guy on January 04, 2019, 09:25:36 PM
Was at the range today and they had a 75B in their rental case. Put the hammer into half cock mode and the safety would not go on.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CrazyDave on January 06, 2019, 12:24:08 AM
Was at the range today and they had a 75B in their rental case. Put the hammer into half cock mode and the safety would not go on.

To clear the air, I called CZ and they seem helpful, knowledgeable, and honest.   The folks here are right. No 75 series CZ should go into safety at less than full cock.  It is not a safety concern according to CZ, other than wearing of trigger parts if you try to fire your gun with the safety on.  Quarter cocked CZ with a safety and most D/A pull?!  I don't pull the trigger witht he safety on anyhow.  I wish they could send a new Shadow 2 with the same defect.  ;D
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 06, 2019, 09:22:42 AM
I have had a number of CZs over the years -- from several Compacts (capital C, with safety), a 97B, and various pre-Bs and B model full-size guns, and none of them had a safety that worked on the "half-cock" notch.  (My oldest pre-B didn't have a half-cock/safety notch.) 

We were all told, back in the day (a number of years ago when I was a moderator on this forum),  via discussions with CZ, that the safety should only work when the hammer is fully cocked.   

I have no personal knowledge of the Omega model, but assume that CZ kept that same function with the new system, too.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CzechnoWizard on January 06, 2019, 09:44:17 AM
Perhaps I'm mistaken but it seems to me that hammer fully down is a dangerous no-no. Hammer would be resting on the FP.  FP would likely be forward of where the FPB can reset. Sharp blow to the hammer (gun dropped on floor) could set off a round. I would certainly advise using the safety notch aka half-cock.

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Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CZJ on January 06, 2019, 10:17:25 AM
I believe that is what the FPB is for, so this doesn't happen.
Title: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: cntrydawwwg on January 06, 2019, 12:07:03 PM
Perhaps I'm mistaken but it seems to me that hammer fully down is a dangerous no-no. Hammer would be resting on the FP.  FP would likely be forward of where the FPB can reset. Sharp blow to the hammer (gun dropped on floor) could set off a round. I would certainly advise using the safety notch aka half-cock.

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On a non FP block pistol I agree, although they are still not considered drop safe. In “theory” you could hit the hammer hard enough to shear off the half cock notch, causing the hammer to still hit the FP.

    On a pistol with a FP block, the FP will not engage without pulling the trigger. So releasing the trigger before fully lowering the hammer will allow the block to reset.  That’s why pistols with the FP block are drop safe.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CzechnoWizard on January 06, 2019, 12:27:51 PM
However, if trigger is held while lowering the hammer, wont the fpb be lifted and fp allowed to go fwd of the fpb? If hammer is not then pulled back to half cock, fpb cannot reset and drop-fire is possible, no? I'm of the opinion that half cock is the better choice even on the b series guns with fpb.

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Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 06, 2019, 12:30:50 PM
Quote from: CzechnoWizard
Perhaps I'm mistaken but it seems to me that hammer fully down is a dangerous no-no. Hammer would be resting on the FP.  FP would likely be forward of where the FPB can reset. Sharp blow to the hammer (gun dropped on floor) could set off a round. I would certainly advise using the safety notch aka half-cock.

You're NOT mistaken about the hammer resting against the firing pin when the hammer is down, but we're talking about a "B" series CZ in this discussion and you've ignored the firing pin safety, which is present in all hammer-fired CZs except the "Pre-B" models (and the 85 Combat).

You also seem to suggest that the CZ's half-cock notch makes the gun drop safe (or can prevent an accidental discharge from an external hammer blow), but there is no evidence that it does so or that it was ever intended to do so. 

Here's what the oldest CZ "B" model manual I have (dated 2001) says about the safety notch function:
CZ's later addition of a firing pin block/safety suggests that the "safety notch" of the "B" models does NOT prevent drop or blow-related issues.   If the gun is dropped or the hammer is slammed by an external force, the CZ half-cock on a CZ "B" model notch MIGHT prevent an accidental discharge, depending on the height of the drop or the force of the blow but the firing pin block on all "B" models would certainly do so.
.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CzechnoWizard on January 06, 2019, 12:39:50 PM
Not looking to start a fight, as I think we are all largely in agreement. I'm talking specifically about a b series pistol. I believe that if you let the hammer down ALL the way, (i.e. holding trigger the entire time), the hammer will push the fp forward past the FP block and hold it there.  Fpb wont reset unless you relieve hammer  pressure off the fp. I'm suggesting that the half cock be used to ensure the user relieves the fp enough to reset the fpb.

I need to go check an actual slide to see if the fpb will drop all the way down when the head of the fp is flush with the back of the slide. It may be that the inertial aspect of the fp is such that the fpb intercepts the fp only when it attempts to travel farther forward than where the head goes subzflush to the slide.

As for drop safe, at half cock, you would have to jar the hammer off the notch AND then break the FP block to get a discharge. Nothing is 100% but 2 safety features working in series is better than 1 or none.

I'm a fan of the decocker models and I never lower the hammer beyond where the decocker stops it for the reasons stated, plus the fact that the DA is better from decock/half cock/safety notch than it is from the dry fired position

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Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 06, 2019, 01:27:57 PM
Quote from: CzechnoWizard
However, if trigger is held while lowering the hammer, wont the fpb be lifted and fp allowed to go fwd of the fpb? If hammer is not then pulled back to half cock, fpb cannot reset and drop-fire is possible, no? I'm of the opinion that half cock is the better choice even on the b series guns with fpb.

The firing pin block resets as soon as your release the trigger, and lowering the hammer doesn't moving the firing pin enough to keep the firing pin safety deactivated until the hammer hits the firing pin with great force -- which is a natural consequence of the trigger being pulled when the gun is fired.

NOTE:  just because the firing pin has moved a LITTLE forward when the hammer is down doesn't mean it has cause the firing pin safety to be disengaged.  That only happens when the trigger is fully to the rear.  The firing pin has to be moved forward a good little distance before the firing pin block mechanism no longer blocks FULL firing pin movement.

If you're really uncomfortable with the process, or don't understand how it works, you can decock in two steps:
If your thumb slips during step 1 as you're dropping the hammer to the half-cock notch, the safety notch will catch it.  And if you've released the trigger after the hammer has begun to move, the FPB is still in effect.

If your thumb slips during step 2 after you've moved PAST the half-cock notch, and you've kept the trigger pulled fully to the rear, there won't be enough force from the hammer spring to move the firing pin far enough (i.e., with enough force) to jump the gap or  to ignite a primer.

That's also true if you do it in ONE STEP, not TWO. The key is simply releasing the trigger as soon as the hammer starts to move.

You're NOT likely to have a DROP or HAMMER STRIKE BLOW-induced problem while the gun is still in your hand, unless you've kept the trigger pressed fully to the rear, the firing pin block is still functioning.   

The safety notch on the hammer does NOT provide the best drop or external blow protection.  It's not even presented as a safety feature for that problem.

Title: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Ruber on January 06, 2019, 01:37:01 PM
I'm talking specifically about a b series pistol. I believe that if you let the hammer down ALL the way, (i.e. holding trigger the entire time), the hammer will push the fp forward past the FP block and hold it there.
Not on my b-series guns.  Of course there is tolerance stacking, variation, custom mods, etc., but on my factory b-series guns the rear of the firing pin needs to be below flush in order to get past the fpb.

Quote
Fpb wont reset unless you relieve hammer  pressure off the fp. I'm suggesting that the half cock be used

It does in mine.  Again, ymmv, but if the hammer is dropped with enough force with the trigger pulled back all the way such that the firing pin passes the block but does not ignite the primer AND the trigger is quickly released while the firing pin is forward such that the fpb comes up against the firing pin, the firing pin will come back on its own to reengage the fpb with the hammer down.

Again, using a factory setup with fresh factory springs on clean guns, so ymmv....
Title: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: cntrydawwwg on January 06, 2019, 01:54:49 PM
CzezhnoWizard, I think I understand where you’re coming from now. The way you describe it, the shooter is keeping the trigger pulled until fully lowering hammer.... thereby pushing the FP past the block.
 “I.E. holding trigger the entire time”

    That is the issue.
   As soon as the shooter starts to move the hammer, the trigger should be immediately released, keeping the FP block in play. Lower to half cock, pull trigger again while lowering hammer, release trigger as soon as hammer starts to move, lower hammer rest of way. This sequence will keep the block in play the entire time.

   Oh, and I don’t think anyone is trying to start a fight, just having a difference of opinions
     
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 06, 2019, 03:03:26 PM
Quote from: CzechnoWizard
As for drop safe, at half cock, you would have to jar the hammer off the notch AND then break the FP block to get a discharge. Nothing is 100% but 2 safety features working in series is better than 1 or none.

If safety redundancy is important, you might consider a Tanfoglio version of the CZ pattern, which also has a hammer safety giving you 3 safety features!  I think you've changed your argument a bit, and maybe now understand how the  CZ firing pin block mechanism works. 

That said, I will continue to argue that there's no reason to believe that the safety notch on the hammer has any meaningful role to play in drop or external-blow safety -- it wasn't designed for that role and none of the gun makers using that feature ever advance that as a (drop/blow) safety feature.

Quote from: CzechnoWizard
I'm a fan of the decocker models and I never lower the hammer beyond where the decocker stops it for the reasons stated, plus the fact that the DA is better from decock/half cock/safety notch than it is from the dry fired position.

I only own ONE decocker-equipped gun (a Sphinx SDP), but have owned a bunch of SIGs over time.  I have never experienced (nor observed) a problem when manually decocking a gun.  My reason for starting from the half-cock notch would be because that's the only practical way my decocker-fired (which is a variant of the CZ pattern) gun works -- so doing so has nothing to do with concern about the firing pin block failing. 

I'm very comfortable manually decocking a DA/SA gun and I just don't like different first and second trigger pulls.  I feel that cocked & locked start is far better than starting from the decocked half-cock safety notch on a CZ. A lot of DA/SA guns don't start from a hammer's safety notch, but  all of them have different first and second trigger pulls.  Nearly all of them have firing pin safeties.

As I've noted before, everybody says that the issue of the different first and second trigger pulls with DA/SA guns can easily be mastered with a bit of practice.  I know that it can be mastered, but I don't think it's an easy or quick mastery.  I also suspect that far fewer shooters master the DA/SA transition than they claim. 

Back when I was very active in IDPA, I was the one who designed our local IDPA match courses of fire and also helped (as a SAFETY OFFICER) with scoring.  Small 2 shot groups on first strings were not something I saw a lot.  It's not something I see a lot at the indoor range where I shoot most often.  When I was shooting my CZs or a Browning Hi-Power in an IDPA match, I just chose to shoot "Enhanced Service Pistol" which let me start from cocked & locked.  Most of the time, that's how I now carry (when I'm not carrying a striker-fired gun); truth be known, however, I now own, use, and carry more striker-fired guns than hammer-fired guns.

I think its far easier to master safe manual decocking than mastering the DA/SA transition.  :)
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CzechnoWizard on January 06, 2019, 05:05:47 PM
I still think we are all in basic agreement. The op was a question about whether to make use of the half cock or not. I think it has a benefit.

I get Dawgs point but I see few shooters with the discipline to release trigger and let the fpb engage WHILE they are lowering the hammer.  This I why I worry about what happens after they decock while holding trigger thru the entire process.

I also agree that the best 2 shot groups from a cold draw generally come from cocked and locked with 2 sa pulls. This is the 1911's home turf and I own a few for that reason. However, I cut my teeth on strikers and elected to never carry anything in a condition that requires I remember to deactivate a safety under stress.  Therefore, I prefer the decocker vs safety for a cz carry gun and I think the OP was intending to carry 1st shot DA. I see no drawbacks to utilizing the safety notch. I personally do see benefit to using it but we don't all share the same point of view on that.

Both DA/SA transition and 1911 (or cz) safety manipulation require practice to master and become ingrained. I do put in substantial range time on both techniques but for carry I always revert to the mode of a da 1st shot and no safety,  either a decocker cz or a striker.  Other than when I'm running a 1911 for fun, I choose to make my range and competition time representative of actual carry conditions, so I use the decocker and holster with the hammer off the FP. 

Apologies to OP for taking the thread so far afield but I sense many of us enjoy the debate.


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Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 06, 2019, 05:48:44 PM
It is easiest to train and with a striker fired (SF) gun.  Problem is that MANY try to get THAT pull as short and light as a target 1911.  I used to think either this or C/L was the way to go to have consistent shooting, but I also was a tad uncomfortable carrying a tuned striker gun.  I also KNOW from time in the Army with a 1911, that one could EASILY forget to engage the safety to start an engagement.  Bad.

Then when I started to carry, I went to a Kahr because of the long BUT smooth and moderate pull.  Then, when I wanted to carry a double stack again, I decided to go DA/SA.  DA/SA is NOT optimum as Walt points out.  The training to get a good 1/2 shot down is tough.  I am still not where I want to be, but I will drive on.  I am completely comfortable carrying with first shot in DA.  I can take a head shot and hit it at 10 yards all day long in DA.  Its harder but doable.  To me it is worth it. 

Many safeties are just too loosey goosey for me.  The HiPower and the 75B are just too easy.  The PreB is good in thie regard as is the Canik, but back to the 1911 - I'd rather not have a safety.  To the OP - especially with a CZ B model, decocking the hammer is safe and allows you to use the safety IF needed.  The reason I presently DON'T own a CZ decocker (with the 75 system), is for this reason and the fact that it is SO much easier to work on the internals of the safety model. 

The 75 system OTB is just NOT that good in execution.  QC and the system produce a pretty gritty pull on most CZ guns compared to a SIG, Beretta, or even an HK. That is why I ditched the P01 years ago and never bought a SP01 in decocker - even though they are very good guns. 

The Omega allowed me to polish and Cajunize to get that smooth light trigger - that you need in DA/SA to become proficient. So I turned to the P series, and llfe was good.   

So.. with the 75, I am a fan of decocking manually for the first DA shot.  Not pinching!  Block with the thumb, release the trigger, and roll the thumb out of the way. 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: cntrydawwwg on January 06, 2019, 07:02:03 PM


but I see few shooters with the discipline to release trigger and let the fpb engage WHILE they are lowering the hammer.
    Very true. Everything we’ve been saying does depend upon the shooter safely handling the pistol in the way it was designed.
     
    I’m not saying you’re wrong in how you feel (all mine are decocker also and I carry at 1/2 cock). It’s just that when describing what’s safe, how to operate etc., I’m just giving plain safe firearm handling advice, that’s in the manual.

   Removing your finger from the trigger is not discipline, it’s safety 101 IMHO. The whole point is what is safe from design IE hammer fully down. From design, yes it’s safe. If a person is an unsafe shooter, then it may not be.  If someone makes the choice to manually decock, then they need to practice that correctly. Once again, I see this as safety, not discipline.
   
    But this whole discussion of course is strictly people’s opinions. Having differences of opinions is what helps us learn and keep this forum going.

     
   
   
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 06, 2019, 07:39:10 PM
Quote from: CzechnoWizard
...techniques but for carry I always revert to the mode of a da 1st shot and no safety,  either a decocker cz or a striker.
I understand your reasoning, and would suggest that it takes less practice to master pushing  a safety down during the presentation than it does to master the DA/SA transition.  But we'll leave that topic unresolved, for others to debate ad nasuum. :)

I would note, however, that very few striker-fired guns are truly double-action, even though the gunmakers call them that.
Most striker-fired semi-autos bypass the DA/SA transition issue, but that doesn't mean that the guns being used are SAFER than safety-equipped DA/SA or SA designs.  There have been far too many Glock negligent discharges in the LEO community to really make anyone believe that striker-fired guns are fundamentally safer than guns with frame-mounted safeties.

A 1911 with a five pound trigger is not greatly different than many of the Glock 21s out there -- but people would scream to high heaven if anyone here advocated carrying that 1911 with the safety off and round chambered, which is a routine practice for the Glock and doesn't have a user-managed safety.   Do you really feel SAFER with a striker-fired gun?
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 06, 2019, 07:47:45 PM
Quote
I understand your reasoning, and would suggest that it takes less practice to master pushing  a safety down during the presentation than it does to master the DA/SA transition.  But we'll leave that topic unresolved, for others to debate ad nasuum. :)

Good point Walt.  That is also why I like a ‘switchable’ gun - especially with a CZ.

"There have been far too many Glock negligent discharges in the LEO community to really make anyone believe that striker-fired guns are fundamentally safer than guns with frame-mounted safeties."

Hence my move to Kahrs and then DA/SA. 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Metal Wonder Nine Guy on January 07, 2019, 11:37:13 PM
It is easiest to train and with a striker fired (SF) gun.  Problem is that MANY try to get THAT pull as short and light as a target 1911.  I used to think either this or C/L was the way to go to have consistent shooting, but I also was a tad uncomfortable carrying a tuned striker gun.  I also KNOW from time in the Army with a 1911, that one could EASILY forget to engage the safety to start an engagement.  Bad.

Then when I started to carry, I went to a Kahr because of the long BUT smooth and moderate pull.  Then, when I wanted to carry a double stack again, I decided to go DA/SA.  DA/SA is NOT optimum as Walt points out.  The training to get a good 1/2 shot down is tough.  I am still not where I want to be, but I will drive on.  I am completely comfortable carrying with first shot in DA.  I can take a head shot and hit it at 10 yards all day long in DA.  Its harder but doable.  To me it is worth it. 

Many safeties are just too loosey goosey for me.  The HiPower and the 75B are just too easy.  The PreB is good in thie regard as is the Canik, but back to the 1911 - I'd rather not have a safety.  To the OP - especially with a CZ B model, decocking the hammer is safe and allows you to use the safety IF needed.  The reason I presently DON'T own a CZ decocker (with the 75 system), is for this reason and the fact that it is SO much easier to work on the internals of the safety model. 

So.. with the 75, I am a fan of decocking manually for the first DA shot.  Not pinching!  Block with the thumb, release the trigger, and roll the thumb out of the way.
Well, yeah. A striker fired pistol has one consistence pull, not the vastly different DA and SA transitions. At a couple ranges, three of those employees I’ve talked to there are CZ fans. Two of them cut their teeth on 1911s and liked the fact that CZs could be ‘cocked and locked’. The third guy doesn’t care for cocked and locked carry and has told me that he has trained himself to cock the hammer back on his CZ while drawing it. Apparently he didn't trust the safety. A Youtube video reviewer mentioned in his 75B video that he wished the 75's safety was more positive.

I am not a great double action pistol shot, but for some reason, I still prefer having a longer and tangible pull in a stressful situation. If I had a shorter trigger pull, that might be detrimental if I get jumpy and send a round downrange where a bullet shouldn’t go.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-switched-double-action/

Quote
I understand your reasoning, and would suggest that it takes less practice to master pushing  a safety down during the presentation than it does to master the DA/SA transition.  But we'll leave that topic unresolved, for others to debate ad nasuum. :)

Good point Walt.  That is also why I like a ‘switchable’ gun - especially with a CZ.

"There have been far too many Glock negligent discharges in the LEO community to really make anyone believe that striker-fired guns are fundamentally safer than guns with frame-mounted safeties."

Hence my move to Kahrs and then DA/SA.
And that’s why I decided to focus on double action hammer fired pistols when I went to buy my first pistol last year.

I do appreciate all of the responses, folks. Thanks for all of the replies.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: larryflew on January 08, 2019, 12:30:51 AM
Cocking while drawing put a lot of holes in legs back in the old west where single action was the only option.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 08, 2019, 08:53:10 AM
Quote from: Metal Wonder Nine Guy
Well, yeah. A striker fired pistol has one consistence pull, not the vastly different DA and SA transitions.

Not vastly different than DA and SA transitions?


Well... I've owned a bunch of both (and still have examples of both in my gun safe), and I've never found the trigger pull on a DA/SA gun that WAS NOT VASTLY DIFFERENT from a typical striker fired gun (one that pre-tensions the striker spring for each shot).  I don't think most of the folks participating here will support you in that position.  And darned few DA/SA shooters are able to get consistently small 1-3 fired groups on a target.  The few who do pull it off are generally "master class" shooters who spend many more hours practicing and shooting than the typical shooter.  They're about the only ones I've seen do that in competition.  For others it's likely to be even more rare. I call BS on that assertion.

I like striker-fired guns, and most of mine have clean-breaking but moderatly heavy trigger pulls (4-5 lbs.) and I'm quite comfortable with that sort of trigger.   Heavy triggers aren't bad if there no grundge in the take up and the trigger breaks cleanly.

When I carry a DA/SA gun, its one of 4 that I own that can be carried cocked & locked.   Right now, the only DA/SA gun I own that doesn't have the C&L capability is a Sphinx SDP, which is just a sweet gun -- and I use it at the range.  Had I been able to get one with a safety, I would have done so -- but they weren't being imported to the U.S. at the time.  I got a great deal on that gun, and don't regret buying it, but I've never carried it.   

Quote from: Metal Wonder Nine Guy
At a couple ranges, three of those employees I’ve talked to there are CZ fans. Two of them cut their teeth on 1911s and liked the fact that CZs could be ‘cocked and locked’. The third guy doesn’t care for cocked and locked carry and has told me that he has trained himself to cock the hammer back on his CZ while drawing it. Apparently he didn't trust the safety. A Youtube video reviewer mentioned in his 75B video that he wished the 75's safety was more positive.

The guy who has trained himself to cock the hammer on his CZ will likely,  in a very intense  stressful real-life confrontation, or in one of the gun games (IDPA or USPSA when "match jitters" might hit him, put one in his leg, or in the ground.  It's one thing to be  proficient at the range, and quite another to stay that way when there's more at stake -- like your ranking in a match or your LIFE.  Stress is a great stimulant but also a great disrupter.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Metal Wonder Nine Guy on January 08, 2019, 10:18:07 AM
Quote from: Metal Wonder Nine Guy
Well, yeah. A striker fired pistol has one consistence pull, not the vastly different DA and SA transitions.

Not vastly different than DA and SA transitions?


Well... I've owned a bunch of both (and still have examples of both in my gun safe), and I've never found the trigger pull on a DA/SA gun that WAS NOT VASTLY DIFFERENT from a typical striker fired gun (one that pre-tensions the striker spring for each shot).  I don't think most of the folks participating here will support you in that position.  And darned few DA/SA shooters are able to get consistently small 1-3 fired groups on a target.  The few who do pull it off are generally "master class" shooters who spend many more hours practicing and shooting than the typical shooter.  They're about the only ones I've seen do that in competition.  For others it's likely to be even more rare. I call BS on that assertion.

I like striker-fired guns, and most of mine have clean-breaking but moderatly heavy trigger pulls (4-5 lbs.) and I'm quite comfortable with that sort of trigger.   Heavy triggers aren't bad if there no grundge in the take up and the trigger breaks cleanly.

When I carry a DA/SA gun, its one of 4 that I own that can be carried cocked & locked.   Right now, the only DA/SA gun I own that doesn't have the C&L capability is a Sphinx SDP, which is just a sweet gun -- and I use it at the range.  Had I been able to get one with a safety, I would have done so -- but they weren't being imported to the U.S. at the time.  I got a great deal on that gun, and don't regret buying it, but I've never carried it.   

Quote from: Metal Wonder Nine Guy
At a couple ranges, three of those employees I’ve talked to there are CZ fans. Two of them cut their teeth on 1911s and liked the fact that CZs could be ‘cocked and locked’. The third guy doesn’t care for cocked and locked carry and has told me that he has trained himself to cock the hammer back on his CZ while drawing it. Apparently he didn't trust the safety. A Youtube video reviewer mentioned in his 75B video that he wished the 75's safety was more positive.

The guy who has trained himself to cock the hammer on his CZ will likely,  in a very intense  stressful real-life confrontation, or in one of the gun games (IDPA or USPSA when "match jitters" might hit him, put one in his leg, or in the ground.  It's one thing to be  proficient at the range, and quite another to stay that way when there's more at stake -- like your ranking in a match or your LIFE.  Stress is a great stimulant but also a great disrupter.

4-5 lb striker fired triggers kind of remind me of an SA pull in a double action autoloader-not as light as a SAO and usually with a little bit of takeup, but still very manageable and straightforward to learn on.

Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to start a debate or cause a fuss. I was just making a point that there is some difference with a heavier DA pull and the lighter SA pulls as opposed to a striker's 1 consistent pull.

Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 09, 2019, 09:30:25 AM
Quote
The guy who has trained himself to cock the hammer on his CZ will likely,  in a very intense  stressful real-life confrontation, or in one of the gun games (IDPA or USPSA when "match jitters" might hit him, put one in his leg, or in the ground.  It's one thing to be  proficient at the range, and quite another to stay that way when there's more at stake -- like your ranking in a match or your LIFE.  Stress is a great stimulant but also a great disrupter.

I respect this view.  However, I have watched a video of a veteran competition shooter decock a Shadow he was reviewing that was set up with a manual safety.  So... I assume that this kind of gun is used in competition as DA/SA and it is done so by more than a few people, and is 'legal' for competition.  I think if this was proven as unsafe, it would be disallowed in competition circuits. I also take a different view than most people on decocking.  I use the off hand for various reasons.  To me it is a 'slow down and use two hands' sort of thing because it is part of reholstering.  Thus, I have no trouble with a P99 which almost requires you to use the off hand. 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 09, 2019, 10:26:21 AM
Quote from: Walt Sherrill
The guy who has trained himself to cock the hammer on his CZ will likely,  in a very intense  stressful real-life confrontation, or in one of the gun games (IDPA or USPSA when "match jitters" might hit him, put one in his leg, or in the ground.  It's one thing to be  proficient at the range, and quite another to stay that way when there's more at stake -- like your ranking in a match or your LIFE.  Stress is a great stimulant but also a great disrupter.

Quote from: briang2ad
I respect this view.  However, I have watched a video of a veteran competition shooter decock a Shadow he was reviewing that was set up with a manual safety.  So... I assume that this kind of gun is used in competition as DA/SA and it is done so by more than a few people, and is 'legal' for competition.  I think if this was proven as unsafe, it would be disallowed in competition circuits.

I wasn't addressing the dangers of decocking in the example you responded to, but to the dangers possible when someone COCKS the weapon during the draw.

As for decocking (implicitly) with one hand: if we modify your statement above to address decocking, the important part of your statement was that if had been PROVEN UNSAFE it would have been disallowed.  In that case, I think you're right -- it hasn't been proven UNSAFE. 

I've seen it done many times in competition and also at the range, and I typically decock using the off hand to steady the gun and my strong hand to manage the trigger and hammer.  But I can easily do it using ONLY the strong hand if necessary.   

In a match decocking with one hand isn't disallowed.  But, if there is an accidental discharge the shooter will generally be immediately disqualified.  Most shooters in a match will be extra careful in such a situation, as they don't want to be disqualified.  :)  More importantly, in a match bystanders are NOT standing nearby, a Safety Officer is present, and the gun is always pointed downrange (generally at an angle so that a round would hit the ground.)  There's really no reason to deal with the cause of the problem (inept decocking) as the result is what's dealt with -- by ending the competitor's activities for the day.

Concern about decocking is much overblown! Not that many guns really require decocking.  With MOST GUNS, you can use a safety if you want to holster the weapon -- or use a decocker.  With most striker-fired guns, you just holster the weapon with your finger far away from the trigger.  If you're leaving the range or a match, you just unload and clear the weapon.  As much as people worry about decocking accidents, I don't think I've ever seen it happen or heard of it happening, either at a range, at home, or during a match.  It's almost like an urban myth. 

That said, I've seen all sorts of issues when people draw (present) from the holster -- along with other things that scare the crap out of me...  (Ever pay much attention to the ceiling at an indoor range?  Or the walls?)
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: newageroman on January 09, 2019, 03:04:52 PM
I generally don't like decockers. My 75B limited gun is converted to SAO so I start cocked and locked. My HD gun is an SP-01 safety model that I keep fully decocked/hammer down in a safe. My carry gun is a Kahr DAO with that nice long smooth trigger (I looked at many sub compact single stack guns before settling on the Kahr and the smooth consistent trigger is the primary reason I went with it).

When manually decocking the 01, I don't have any issues and getting practice with the decocking process is nice to have. Another factor in the safety model was if I move it into a competition gun in the future, safety option is easier to work on. I would think that even if moving to production comp with a DA/SA gun, I would still be just as comfortable with (and prefer) manually decocking rather than using a decocker. I guess I will always be that way until I end up with a hole in the floor or the dirt (I usually go outside and point it to the ground when decocking).

Just my .02.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Radom on January 12, 2019, 01:58:20 PM
All of this just blows my mind. 

Competition, rules, and all that aside:  if you handle a pistol with an external hammer, you should be able to decock that pistol with one hand.  (Trigger finger on the trigger; and thumb from the same hand on the hammer.) 

I'm not that old, and this was considered a BASIC skill for handling a handgun as recently as 20 years ago.  It's just another learned skill/behavior.  If you practice this, it is more natural/normal than using a decocking lever. 

What does a decocking lever do for you?  It puts an external hammer down on a loaded chamber with no external safety.  It does nothing for you that you cannot do for yourself. 

   
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CzechnoWizard on January 12, 2019, 02:26:57 PM
I so want to keep my mouth shut but.....
I agree - competition rules etc can be left out of the discussion, but in real life....
Decocking a cz or 1911 1-handed is foolish and dangerous. If you lose control of the hammer while holding the trigger back you will likely have an unintended discharge.
If you have a pistol equipped with a safety, and only 1 hand available to manipulate it, then put the safety on and holster up cocked and locked. Attempt a 1 handed decock and I'm throwing you off my range.
What the decocker does is give you a means to lower the hammer without touching the trigger. The hammer does not "fall on a loaded chamber with no safety", it drops to and is stopped on the decock position. If there was a mechanical failure in this process, the firing pin block is there to prevent a discharge. Since your booger hook is off the bang switch, the FPB is not disengaged and is thus available to save your bacon.   Competition aside, decocker pistols are intended to be holstered and carried with hammer down ready for a da 1st shot. SA pistols are made to be carried cocked and locked, and std CZ 75B is made to carry either way. BUT a non decocker 75b should either be put on safe or 2-hand decocked before holstering. If you are decocking every time you holster, you should have purchased a D model with decocker.  If that offends you, don't get pissed off at my bluntness - I just gave you an excuse to buy another CZ!
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Radom on January 12, 2019, 02:53:18 PM
I so want to keep my mouth shut but.....
I agree - competition rules etc can be left out of the discussion, but in real life....
Decocking a cz or 1911 1-handed is foolish and dangerous. If you lose control of the hammer while holding the trigger back you will likely have an unintended discharge.
If you have a pistol equipped with a safety, and only 1 hand available to manipulate it, then put the safety on and holster up cocked and locked. Attempt a 1 handed decock and I'm throwing you off my range.
What the decocker does is give you a means to lower the hammer without touching the trigger. The hammer does not "fall on a loaded chamber with no safety", it drops to and is stopped on the decock position. If there was a mechanical failure in this process, the firing pin block is there to prevent a discharge. Since your booger hook is off the bang switch, the FPB is not disengaged and is thus available to save your bacon.   Competition aside, decocker pistols are intended to be holstered and carried with hammer down ready for a da 1st shot. SA pistols are made to be carried cocked and locked, and std CZ 75B is made to carry either way. BUT a non decocker 75b should either be put on safe or 2-hand decocked before holstering. If you are decocking every time you holster, you should have purchased a D model with decocker.  If that offends you, don't get pissed off at my bluntness - I just gave you an excuse to buy another CZ!

Than you for the selective misquoting. 

I said no EXTERNAL safety.  CZs aren't Berettas or Walthers.  You generally have two options: decocker (no external safety) or external safety. 

With the FPB, you can easily decock a Type B with one hand.  You pull the trigger while easing the hammer down.  If you release the trigger, the FPB is engaged, and the pistol cannot fire.  Once the hammer is lowered past the half-cock notch, the hammer cannot generate enough energy to overcome the inertia of the firing pin spring system, even if the trigger remains pulled.  It's pretty elementary. 


Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: CzechnoWizard on January 12, 2019, 03:24:41 PM


[/quote]With the FPB, you can easily decock a Type B with one hand.  You pull the trigger while easing the hammer down.  If you release the trigger, the FPB is engaged, and the pistol cannot fire.  Once the hammer is lowered past the half-cock notch, the hammer cannot generate enough energy to overcome the inertia of the firing pin spring system, even if the trigger remains pulled.  It's pretty elementary.
[/quote]


Yep. It's easy right up until something goes a little wrong. Maybe your hands are a little sweaty or the hammer has a little oil on it.  You must have amazing reflexes to be able to release that trigger after your thumb slips off the hammer and before it strikes the pin. You are far too wise and experienced to ever share a range with an nervous nancy like me. Thank you for sharing your hard earned wisdom with all the young folks here so they can emulate your manly pistol handling skills and have the opportunity to experience an AD or maybe even a self inflicted GSW.  It must be awesome to be so cool that you can single hand decock and not rely on a crutch like a proper decocker.   Actually, as brave as you are, I'm not sure why you ever decock.  If I had your courage and wisdom, I would just start to carry Mexican style, appendix position, hammer full cocked.  With your confidence and discipline that should be no worry... Us sissies and our little sisters can keep our decockers to ourselves or we can engage a safety before holstering but we will never be able to measure up to a real man who 1 hand decocks without any qualms.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 12, 2019, 04:12:09 PM
For the sake of folks reading who are not as familiar I will post. 

There is no NEED to decock any gun one handed, and ESPECIALLY if it has no decocker.  If it has no decocker, there IS a NEED to use the non shooting hand.  You decock to HOLSTER or place on the nightstand.  No reason not to use the off hand.  Even with my P07s I use the off-hand because you can keep your firing hand perfectly secure on the gun and ready to engage with it and NOT shift anything on the hand position. Reviewers who go on about having the decocker right 'there'  as a sort of necessity don't get this.  Decocking is part of something else - and using the off hand is good for this.  Holstering SHOULD use your off hand also.  That's why I also like the button on TOP of the slide on the P99.

Just put about 300 rounds through my PreBs today and 1/3 - 1/2 in DA - all decocked with the off hand thumb blocking.  Its now a reflex.  These guns shoot DA SO WELL - easy to group.
Title: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Ruber on January 12, 2019, 05:53:35 PM
My two cents, cause these really are personal opinions even if guided by experience:

I really think anyone who intends to have a gun decocked (for whatever personal or professional reason) should practice manual decocking with one hand.

I’ve seen so many people that have done tactical training or competitive sports get into the real world and find themselves with a loaded & cocked gun with only one hand available.

Ya, shouldn’t ever need to decock manually with one hand.  This is one of the reasons I don’t like seeing safety guns carried decocked whether for equipment or regulation reasons. Personally, my gear is all setup around cocked and locked carry.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Metal Wonder Nine Guy on January 12, 2019, 06:02:13 PM
All of this just blows my mind. 

Competition, rules, and all that aside:  if you handle a pistol with an external hammer, you should be able to decock that pistol with one hand.  (Trigger finger on the trigger; and thumb from the same hand on the hammer.) 

I'm not that old, and this was considered a BASIC skill for handling a handgun as recently as 20 years ago.  It's just another learned skill/behavior.  If you practice this, it is more natural/normal than using a decocking lever. 

What does a decocking lever do for you?  It puts an external hammer down on a loaded chamber with no external safety.  It does nothing for you that you cannot do for yourself. 

   

Not to nitpick here and Hopefully I'm not throwing gas on the fire but I did want to mention that most DA autoloaders with decockers usually drop the hammer to half cock position. This includes pistols like the CZ-75 BD, Sig P200 series, Smith and Wesson 59 and 39 series, Walther PP etc.

The only time I've seen a DA autoloader bypass the half cock notch  and seat the hammer fully on the rear of the slide is the Beretta 92 series. But that's  because the firing pin is in 2 sections and when the safety lever is rotated, part of the firing pin is rotated downwards.

https://berettaforum.net/vb/showpost.php?p=923298&postcount=11
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: ohiodff on January 22, 2019, 09:47:46 AM
Not looking to start a fight, as I think we are all largely in agreement. I'm talking specifically about a b series pistol. I believe that if you let the hammer down ALL the way, (i.e. holding trigger the entire time), the hammer will push the fp forward past the FP block and hold it there.  Fpb wont reset unless you relieve hammer  pressure off the fp. I'm suggesting that the half cock be used to ensure the user relieves the fp enough to reset the fpb.

I need to go check an actual slide to see if the fpb will drop all the way down when the head of the fp is flush with the back of the slide. It may be that the inertial aspect of the fp is such that the fpb intercepts the fp only when it attempts to travel farther forward than where the head goes subzflush to the slide.

As for drop safe, at half cock, you would have to jar the hammer off the notch AND then break the FP block to get a discharge. Nothing is 100% but 2 safety features working in series is better than 1 or none.

I'm a fan of the decocker models and I never lower the hammer beyond where the decocker stops it for the reasons stated, plus the fact that the DA is better from decock/half cock/safety notch than it is from the dry fired position

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Sounds like you are illustrating the same concerns I had.  What I didn't realize until I had it in my hand is that on a 75B there is significant clearance from when the hammer passes the "1/2 cock" notch to full-down - much more than on a P-07.  Once you clear the notch you can release the trigger and lower the hammer the rest of the way with the FPB engaged.  I'm from the 1980's school of "never drop a hammer on a hot round" so see no reason to take that risk, but I have a lot less trepidation about it than I did now that I have seen just how much clearance there is.  Not sure why anyone would want to do it though, if you want to carry condition 2 just get a BD - I have a PCR and P-07 for that exact reason.

I got a reaction similar to yours from the "it's fine" crowd about being "able to do it".  I agree the issue has nothing to do with competency of what's in actuality a trivial action, I just can't for the life of me understand the bravado behind the thought process.  If there's a .1% chance of something catastrophic going wrong vs. a 0% chance, give me the 0% all day long when there's nothing to gain by taking the .1% chance.  If I ever "have to" make a weapon safe I'm going to use the safety, the decocker, or remove the round from the chamber.   I'm not going to put my finger on the trigger of a loaded weapon I don't intend to fire.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 22, 2019, 11:00:28 AM
Quote
Not sure why anyone would want to do it though, if you want to carry condition 2 just get a BD - I have a PCR and P-07 for that exact reason.

Here is why:

The CZ 75 series trigger is capable of incredible feel and function in DA/SA.  BUT... it is HARD to attain that with the CZ decocker system - its that simple. 

Yes, I have picked up a few recently that are useable OTB.  With 2000 rounds, they'd likely be pretty good.  But to get them to feel like any OTB SP 2022 or CZ 75B you can work on, it is hard.  Disassembling the 75 system gets HARD with the decocking assembly.  Many of these guns OTB are pretty bad.  CZUB trigger execution is not that good.

ALSO - the 75 series decockers are in an awkward position for many compared to the P series.  I like to have my hands all over the gun which is easier on a CZ, but the 75 Decocker gets in the way of the off-hand thumb. 

Yes, I carry a P07. But the Omega is much easier to work on.

BUT, nothing like my CZ 75 transitional DA - which is as smooth as a SIG SP 2022, but SHORT like only a 75 series is from the decocked position. 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 22, 2019, 11:14:14 AM
Quote from: ohiodff
I got a reaction similar to yours from the "it's fine" crowd about being "able to do it".  I agree the issue has nothing to do with competency of what's in actuality a trivial action, I just can't for the life of me understand the bravado behind the thought process.  If there's a .1% chance of something catastrophic going wrong vs. a 0% chance, give me the 0% all day long when there's nothing to gain by taking the .1% chance.  If I ever "have to" make a weapon safe I'm going to use the safety, the decocker, or remove the round from the chamber.   I'm not going to put my finger on the trigger of a loaded weapon I don't intend to fire.
I agree with you that if you NEED to make a gun safe, you can use the safety, use the decocker, or remove the magazine and round from the chamber.  (I only have one decocker-equipped weapon, but it is decocked when it's put down or holstered.)

You're concerned about the difference between  a .1% chance of an accident than a 0% chance, but that is -- for people debating relative safety -- a bit like medieval clerics arguing about how many angels can dance on the point of a pin.  I've seen MANY MORE (unintended) unaimed discharges at a range that are potentially dangerous when people practice live-round presentations from the holster than .1% of the first shots fired otherwise. 

And that said, why must we automatically assume that a slip while decocking will be catastrophic?  If the gun is pointed in a safe direction, it won't be catastrophic.  It might just be embarrassing.

In this type of discussion, attention is always paid to the possibility of the hammer slipping from the shooter's grasp as it is lowered, and but almost no attention is paid to where the muzzle is pointed. As long as you have a gun with a loaded chamber pointed in a safe direction as you manually decoc -- perhaps with the muzzle  pointed toward the ground away from your feet -- even that worrisome .1% becomes irrelevant.  If your hand somehow slips and you discharge a round, the only thing at risk is your ego -- and there's a good chance that the hammer will hit the safety notch on most guns, and not discharge!  More importantly, if after the hammer has started to move, and you release the trigger, the firing pin safety may be reengaged. (If the hammer doesn't continue to drop easily, you just gently press the trigger again to lower the hammer a bit farther, and then release the trigger. as it continues on down.)

There may be a few cases where you might HAVE to go to fully hammer down on  a loaded chamber.  Shooting in IDPA Stock Service Pistol or USPSA Production with a non-decocker CZ or Witness is one example:  in either gun game you must start with the hammer fully hammer down.   
I've noticed, too, that nobody ever voices concern about drawing from the holster and firing at a target at a range.  We all need to practice this skill if we're concerned about using our weapon in self-defense.  Having shot at local indoor ranges for many years and having been a safety officer at many IDPA matches for a number of years, I've seen many more misplaced first shots than NDs while decocking;  in fact, I don't think I've ever witnessed a negligent discharge while a gun was being decocked, either in matches or elsewhere.  People who decock manually -- and not many do -- are generally pretty careful.

It seems that most of the folks who are concerned about accidents while decocking have never owned a non-decocker weapon.  And they've never had a desired to become comfortable with what is a relatively simple process.  The idea of a POSSIBLE accident totally colors their attitudes and behavior.  That's okay.  But their attitudes don't have to control everyone else's attitudes. and behaviors.  They don't want to manually decock, they don't have to.  But just because they think it's unsafe doesn't make it unsafe. 

Then too, as I've noted in these types of discussions before, if you shoot at an indoor range, pay attention to all of the holes in the ceiling, or marks in the floor or on the wall... hardly any of those shots intentionally hit where they were intended.  And those potentially dangers discharges are seldom mentioned.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 22, 2019, 11:17:52 AM
Walt: ALL good points.

And BTW, with a B model once your finger is OFF the trigger in the decocking sequence the gun CANNOT fire, unless there is a mechanical problem with the pistol. 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 22, 2019, 11:58:16 AM
Quote from: briang2ad
And BTW, with a B model once your finger is OFF the trigger in the decocking sequence the gun CANNOT fire, unless there is a mechanical problem with the pistol.

True, but there's a sweet spot where, if you release the trigger, the hammer doesn't want to go on down, so you sometimes find yourself hunting for the sweet spot.  After a while you just let the hammer go farther before your release the trigger, and if it slips before that point, it should STILL hit the safety notch.  If you release AFTER that point, is shouldn't have enough momentum to make the firing pin overcome the firing pin spring (which resists the firing pin's movement.) 

Earlier you wrote:

Quote from: briang2ad
The CZ 75 series trigger is capable of incredible feel and function in DA/SA.  BUT... it is HARD to attain that with the CZ decocker system - its that simple.

Harder to attain, if you're doing it yourself, but folks like CGW or CZ Custom do it pretty effectively. 

As I understand it, the only real difference between the trigger function of the decocker and non-decocker models is that the decocker models have one rather than two hammer hooks. (That hammer hook was removed to make space for the decocker mechanism.) 

I'm not an expert on this subject -- and someone more knowledgeable is welcome to correct me on this point -- but I don't think the decocker mechanism has much effect on trigger function,  But in keeping with your point above, working on a decocker model is apparently a bit more complicated.

When decocker models were first introduced, most gunsmiths just wouldn't work on them.  And I remember discussions here on the forum about people doing it themselves and really raising a stink about the extra effort it took.  I've never detail-stripped a decocker CZ, and have no interest in doing so. :)  The used P-07 I picked up some time ago came to me without the decocker parts, so I've never had a chance to investigate the Omega version, either. The fact that users can change to or from decocker suggests its a lot easier.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 22, 2019, 12:41:19 PM
Walt:

When I decock I use the off-hand thumb - eliminates 'slippage' problems. 

The decocker doesn't make the trigger worse per se.  Its just MUCH harder detail strip and reassemble.  A 75 safety gun is almost trivial.  I helped a friend with a SP01 tactical and it was not good- it eventually went to a smith. I could have eventually got it. but it was not fun.  Even a PreB safety is peanuts in comparison. 

The Omega is VERY simple other than the decocker spring - but with a eyeglass tool, even this gets easy and the whole thing is again trivial against the 75 series.

This makes maintenance (like replacing trigger springs) MUCH easier, and on 75 system that has not been polished is a shame.

Pick up a SIG, Beretta, HK.  Generally they are an order of magnitude smoother OTB.  My two SP 2022s had NO grit or stacking and I bought them sight unseen.  They were like glass OTB.  There is no excuse for the 75 series to still have the grit it does OTB - which gets back to ease of working on them.

I prefer to do my own and not spend the $50 in shipping one way.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: ohiodff on January 22, 2019, 05:02:05 PM
I agree with you that if you NEED to make a gun safe, you can use the safety, use the decocker, or remove the magazine and round from the chamber.  (I only have one decocker-equipped weapon, but it is decocked when it's put down or holstered.)

You're concerned about the difference between  a .1% chance of an accident than a 0% chance, but that is -- for people debating relative safety -- a bit like medieval clerics arguing about how many angels can dance on the point of a pin.  I've seen MANY MORE (unintended) unaimed discharges at a range that are potentially dangerous when people practice live-round presentations from the holster than .1% of the first shots fired otherwise. 

And that said, why must we automatically assume that a slip while decocking will be catastrophic?  If the gun is pointed in a safe direction, it won't be catastrophic.  It might just be embarrassing.
The .1% chance isn't really my main point - it's the fact that I (and others, apparently) have the preference not to take that .1% chance and are spoken down to as a result.  Why can't people just respect that?  briang2ad illustrated a good reason for himself to do it - fine, he's entitled to that.  I won't be telling him how elementary or basic the options are.

Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: ohiodff on January 22, 2019, 05:05:46 PM
Quote
Not sure why anyone would want to do it though, if you want to carry condition 2 just get a BD - I have a PCR and P-07 for that exact reason.

Here is why:

The CZ 75 series trigger is capable of incredible feel and function in DA/SA.  BUT... it is HARD to attain that with the CZ decocker system - its that simple. 

Yes, I have picked up a few recently that are useable OTB.  With 2000 rounds, they'd likely be pretty good.  But to get them to feel like any OTB SP 2022 or CZ 75B you can work on, it is hard.  Disassembling the 75 system gets HARD with the decocking assembly.  Many of these guns OTB are pretty bad.  CZUB trigger execution is not that good.

ALSO - the 75 series decockers are in an awkward position for many compared to the P series.  I like to have my hands all over the gun which is easier on a CZ, but the 75 Decocker gets in the way of the off-hand thumb. 

Yes, I carry a P07. But the Omega is much easier to work on.

BUT, nothing like my CZ 75 transitional DA - which is as smooth as a SIG SP 2022, but SHORT like only a 75 series is from the decocked position.
Cool.  Just so I'm following, you're saying you specifically prefer the 75 DA trigger and don't want the decocker because those guns are harder to work on?  Being newer to CZ ownership I haven't done much beyond basic field-stripping so don't have any reference.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on January 22, 2019, 05:32:12 PM
So another debate on manually decocking a loaded pistol.This debate will rage on for eons. I do it/have done it and will continue to do so. Those who won't I respect that.
So in the case of most DA/SA revolvers if you are precision shooting by drawing the hammer back for SA and decide to suspend firing or must suspend firing the hammer must be lowered manually and there is a very safe technique for the process.
Manually decocking the revolver is the only option here if firing the round is not possible because it is not possible to open the cylinder on these guns and unload them with the hammer cocked back.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 22, 2019, 08:28:49 PM
Quote from: ohiodff
The .1% chance isn't really my main point - it's the fact that I (and others, apparently) have the preference not to take that .1% chance and are spoken down to as a result.  Why can't people just respect that?  briang2ad illustrated a good reason for himself to do it - fine, he's entitled to that.  I won't be telling him how elementary or basic the options are.

I can respect folks who don't want to decock manually.  There are a lot of such folks out there, and gun makers sell a lot of decocker-equipped guns.  But I think that for many of them the decision is more based on fear than a true understanding of the problem they are trying to avoid.  I would argue that manual decocking doesn't really present even a .1% chance of a problem if you follow the same gun handling rules you follow any other time.  Some of these same folks also tell me that the DA/SA transition (i.e., different first and second trigger pulls) -- which is always an issue with a decocker equipped weapon -- is a problem that can be easily overcome with training.  I think many more of these folks talk a good training talk than actually walk a good training walk.

A dangerous negligent discharge can only occur while manually decocking a handgun if you have already failed to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction!  If the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction when it is negligently discharged, it may be embarrassing for the shooter, but it won't be dangerous to anyone.  To argue that manually decocking a handgun might even be catastrophically dangerous involves the same sort of "talking-down" to folks that gets your dander up.  I'd argue that the issue isn't really about decocking, but where the gun is pointed!  :)

If they made a gun that allowed a safe cocked start, did it with a good SA trigger, and also allowed the shooter to decock easily,  I'd probably think about getting one -- as that would be the best of both worlds.  The only guns I know of that do have that functionality aren't easily used in SA start mode.  (I think some H&K guns had that ability, but starting from cocked and locked was awkward.)

Some of the prior generation of Walthers, like the P99 (and the functionally similar S&W 99) apparently did it pretty well, and they were also striker-fired!   When decocked, they could be fired double-action -- you didn't need slide movement to pretension the striker spring! I didn't understand how these guns worked back when they were still available, so  I didn't didn't appreciate their technical sophistication until after they went out of production.  I might still pick one up one of these days if I stumble across one for sale or trade -- I almost picked one up last year.

Continue to use your decocker.  But I don't ask me and others to accept the argument/claim that manually decocking is necessarily any more dangerous than a lot of other gun-handling procedures we all perform or observe -- like presenting a pistol from the holster with a loaded chamber for the first shot on target. 

No matter whether you're firing your first shot or manually decocking the weapon, if you keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction when the gun is in your hand(s), the risk of danger is less than the already miniscule .1%.   If you don't do that, you're already doing something very dangerous.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 22, 2019, 09:13:58 PM
Ohiodff;  Basically true. The main reason is because a CZ has so much potential that you really need to detail strip and polish it up. This is made much harder with a DeCocker.  I have become somewhat a trigger snob especially in double action because double action is a hard shot and even with practice you still need a gun with a good double action trigger to start off your strings. I have found overtime that most of the DeCocker models are gritty and frankly most CZ’s are gritty out of the box.The omega trigger from what I have seen especially in the P series is very easy to work on and as long as you buy a gun that does not stack you can get an excellent trigger pull by doing smoothing polishing and putting in Cajun parts.

 CZUB could alleviate all this with good quality control on the fire control parts. However, they seem unwilling to do that so wen have to.  I find that most all  Sig’s Are good to go, and again the SP2022 triggers are really really nice in double action out of the box.

 I am not saying that most CZ’s are not good for use out of the box. However, to put them on par with a Sig, they need work.

 This is why I end up manually decocking on CZ 75 series guns. Again, I have no problem with D Cocker models in the P series and would love to try the new CZ 75B omega trigger.   I really like the D Cocker in its form and function on the steel 75 series.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on January 23, 2019, 05:08:29 AM
I reworked all of my CZ's and yes they are par with My P-series Sigs now but I have yet to handle an SP2022 that had what I would call a good trigger.I've handled many and find them mushy with heavy SA pulls and horrendously long resets nothing like the P-series Sigs with the short reset triggers.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 23, 2019, 07:40:11 AM
I reworked all of my CZ's and yes they are par with My P-series Sigs now but I have yet to handle an SP2022 that had what I would call a good trigger.I've handled many and find them mushy with heavy SA pulls and horrendously long resets nothing like the P-series Sigs with the short reset triggers.

Clearly the SR triggers on the P series are in another category - they are better than PreBs in this sense.  Yet, I have found Legions with some grit and heaviness I have not found in the SP series.  ALL SPs I've tried have been smooth and FELT 10 LBS or less.  I own two and each is a thing of beauty in regards to smoothness of DA, and their reset is no worse than a stock CZ P gun.  Of course, I am not a reset Nazi and I don't shame those who are.  If you are that good, then its OK to brag.  Of course there are plenty of top shooters that 'slap' their triggers, so reset does not matter to them. 

My SPs are as smooth as my great PreBs and one of my P09s which is exceptional.  Not quite as light as my PreBs, but very nice. 

But, lets not get off the OP intent.  My point is that CZs need work to compete with SIGs, etc., and the decocking mechanism makes that more painful.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on January 23, 2019, 08:41:06 AM
I reworked all of my CZ's and yes they are par with My P-series Sigs now but I have yet to handle an SP2022 that had what I would call a good trigger.I've handled many and find them mushy with heavy SA pulls and horrendously long resets nothing like the P-series Sigs with the short reset triggers.

Clearly the SR triggers on the P series are in another category - they are better than PreBs in this sense.  Yet, I have found Legions with some grit and heaviness I have not found in the SP series.  ALL SPs I've tried have been smooth and FELT 10 LBS or less.  I own two and each is a thing of beauty in regards to smoothness of DA, and their reset is no worse than a stock CZ P gun.  Of course, I am not a reset Nazi and I don't shame those who are.  If you are that good, then its OK to brag.  Of course there are plenty of top shooters that 'slap' their triggers, so reset does not matter to them. 

My SPs are as smooth as my great PreBs and one of my P09s which is exceptional.  Not quite as light as my PreBs, but very nice. 

But, lets not get off the OP intent.  My point is that CZs need work to compete with SIGs, etc., and the decocking mechanism makes that more painful.


It's really more perception and opinion than fact. I'd put the SP guns right on par with the CZ P-07/09 series both having the same crappy long reset. One really to me is no better than the other and  I have never felt the SP was Sigs best work and really it isn't,it's just a cheaper line gun designed for the French that found it's way to the US.
CZ is putting their eggs in the striker fired basket and that's where the refinements will be. The 75 variants are old tech and I don't believe they will change any from what they are right now.
If we're being fair here then compare the CZ metal framed guns to the Sig metal framed guns and in this regard the Sigs may be more refined but are priced much higher than the CZ and many of them still need work to meet MY standards.
I like my M11A1 but the factory trigger is a joke so that had to be upgraded to the Gray Guns P-SAIT unit and the Sig Lite night sights don't cut it for me so those got swapped for Xray3's. So now that already overpriced M11 is approaching Legion territory as far as price.
As I said it's really all a matter of opinion but comparing apples to apples CZ's are still a better VALUE and you can upgrade one even a decocker which really is pretty easy to work on and still have less invested than you'll pay for most comparable Sigs.
Another thing to consider as far as value is there are no cheap quality mags to be had for the plastic framed CZ's or ANY Sigs. Mags for these guns are averaging well north of $30 each yet you can stock up on mags for any of the metal framed CZ's often under $25 each.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 23, 2019, 10:05:48 AM
It's sometimes mentioned, but it always seemed to me that a  Witness (Tanfoglio-made guns) triggers, out of the box, were better than CZs .

That said, my experience with new Witness guns are limited, as I never bought a NEW Witness. I have had a bunch of used ones, and I had an acquaintance or two with new Witnesses that I got to try out when they first got them.  Same long pull for DA and longer-than-optimal resets as with CZs, but the triggers were seldom grungy, and in SA, the hammers never moved so obviously to the rear as with some CZs. Good out-of-the-box triggers are possible, and I don't understand why CZ won't do it.   As CGW and CZ Custom has shown, just a more refined hammer can make a big difference. 

Triggers are, to my thinking, CZs only significantly weak feature   That production quirk alone has probably kept CZ Custom and Cajun Gun Works in business.  The triggers break in/wear in with use, but it takes time -- and it's a turnoff for people trying them out in a gun shop.  Just improving the trigger would probably improve sales noticeably and CZ doesn't seem to understand.

(I suspect CZ will move forward by tweaking the Omega system design and put more emphasis on striker-fired guns.) 

A striker-fired gun with a decocker that has second-strike capabilities (i.e., true DA/SA function) would be a bit like the Omega system for hammer-fired guns (which allows the user to switch from or to safety or decocker) -- a unique offering in an already popular gun line. 

I previously mentioned the Walther P99 series that had that functionality, and I got a private message from a member here who says the Springfield XDe also has that capability.  It's something CZ should explore, for it it's done right -- especially in a gun used in IDPA or USPSA -- that could be a truly unique selling opportunity for CZ.

Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 23, 2019, 10:56:00 AM
Quote
Triggers are, to my thinking, CZs weakest (maybe only significant) feature   That production quirk alone has kept CZ Custom and Cajun Gun Works in business. 
  Right on the spot Walt.  CZ seems to have NO interest in super OTB triggers.  Both TF and IWI spanks CZ when it comes to triggers.  Even Canik usually does somewhat better.

I have some P99s and they are great - especially my Gen 1.  They do have a tendency to stack at the DA break - a design flaw. 

OTB there is no comparison between my P07s and SP2022s - SP was MUCH better in smoothness and SA break, equal in reset and no need of anything really.  Once Cajunized I like the feel and shooting of the P07s though.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on January 23, 2019, 11:30:39 AM
I've never handled a pistol of any kind that I would say could not be improved. I've also never owned a pistol that I didn't improve to bring it up to my standards. Too say that CZ's substandard triggers keeps CGW and CZ Custom in business is illogical when you consider the HUGE amount of after market parts and accessories for the vast majority of guns on the market.
Gray Guns for Sig,Apex for S&W,Galloway Precision and Powder River Precision for Springfield's XD line. Massive 1911 parts support from many companies and the same with Glock parts. If there wasn't a market for improvements in ALL the brands those companies would not exist. Thankfully we have CGW and CZ Custom to bring us parts and accessories for our CZ's.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Spad124 on January 23, 2019, 02:08:07 PM
This has been an interesting thread for me as a new forum member.  While I'm fairly new to CZs, I have a decent amount of experience with S&W revolvers, and SIG and 1911 pistols.  For what its worth, my take is that the longer SA travel on a 75 BD is designed in to more closely mirror the DA travel so as to keep a more consistent length of travel between the SA mode and the decocked DA mode compared to say, a SIG P226.  With more consistent lengths of travel there is less readjustment going from DA to SA.  This makes the 75 BD more like the consistent DA pull on a revolver or a striker fired pistol. 

When I bought my 75 BD 2 1/2 years ago, my first CZ 75, the long SA travel through me at first. It was when I started firing transitions between decocked DA and SA that I began to see a reason for the long take up and appreciate it,  In contrast my P226 and P6 both have a significantly noticeable transition from DA/SA with the length of SA pull being half or less of the SA pull.  That DA to SA difference with the SIG takes more adjustment than the DA/SA transition in my BD.  Having owned and shot S&W revolvers for 30 plus years I can appreciate a consistent DA pull. 

So, while I understand from reading on this forum the SA pull length on a BD can be reduced and the feel improved, I don't think it was intended to be similar to short SA pull on a 1911.   

As a side note, since I bought my BD I've also acquired a P-01, PCR, and most recently a used 85B. (yes, I've caught the disease.)  Even thought the 85B is a 2016 manufacture, it is clear it has been shot enough (or maybe worked on?) so that the trigger pull is smooth and not gritty.  Of the others the BD had the grittiest out of the box trigger.  The PCR and P-01 had much better out of the box triggers.

And I just want to say thanks to the forum members for a tremendous amount of valuable information that I've gotten from the posts here.       
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 23, 2019, 03:03:26 PM
Quote
Too say that CZ's substandard triggers keeps CGW and CZ Custom in business is illogical when you consider the HUGE amount of after market parts and accessories for the vast majority of guns on the market.
Gray Guns for Sig,Apex for S&W,Galloway Precision and Powder River Precision for Springfield's XD line.

After market sells because that is the name of the American game.  Modify the snot out of it.  I think Walt is right to point out that CGW makes guns that are otherwise mediocre into VERY fine triggers.  I can tell you for certain, I would NOT own multiple P guns without CGW - it changed the guns that much.  One P07 went BACK to CZ USA because the trigger stank like a rotten fish.  After some parts, Cajunizing and 1000 rounds it is pretty good.  My two SP 2022s need NOTHING.  My P228s need NOTHING.  Would a SR Kit add something for many folks?  Yes.  But the triggers are great OTB - not so with most CZs - so Walt's statemenr holds water. 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on January 23, 2019, 04:33:56 PM
Quote
Too say that CZ's substandard triggers keeps CGW and CZ Custom in business is illogical when you consider the HUGE amount of after market parts and accessories for the vast majority of guns on the market.
Gray Guns for Sig,Apex for S&W,Galloway Precision and Powder River Precision for Springfield's XD line.

After market sells because that is the name of the American game.  Modify the snot out of it.  I think Walt is right to point out that CGW makes guns that are otherwise mediocre into VERY fine triggers.  I can tell you for certain, I would NOT own multiple P guns without CGW - it changed the guns that much.  One P07 went BACK to CZ USA because the trigger stank like a rotten fish.  After some parts, Cajunizing and 1000 rounds it is pretty good.  My two SP 2022s need NOTHING.  My P228s need NOTHING.  Would a SR Kit add something for many folks?  Yes.  But the triggers are great OTB - not so with most CZs - so Walt's statemenr holds water.

Yeah it's still ALL opinion.If I had your SP guns or your P228's they would get the perfecting they deserve because in MY opinion they need it. If YOU are satisfied by them as is then that's good for YOU.
I've modded my CZ's including my P-07 and made them the perfect shooting weapons I prefer but then I've done that with the other 40 handguns I currently own of various makes. So if walt's statement holds water for you enjoy the drink.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 23, 2019, 04:41:46 PM
The difference between ALL the SP2022s and MOST (70%) of CZ P guns I've handled are an opinion, but not mere opinion.  Smoothness and NOT stacking mean something in DA. Minimal or NO creep in SA means something.  No sir, not mere opinion. 

CZ's generally need work.  SIGs often don't, but prosper from it. 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on January 23, 2019, 04:46:18 PM
The difference between ALL the SP2022s and MOST (70%) of CZ P guns I've handled are an opinion, but not mere opinion.  Smoothness and NOT stacking mean something in DA. Minimal or NO creep in SA means something.  No sir, not mere opinion. 

CZ's generally need work.  SIGs often don't, but prosper from it.
We will just have to agree to disagree. What works for you isn't good enough for me.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Walt Sherrill on January 23, 2019, 04:55:35 PM
Quote from: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM
I've never handled a pistol of any kind that I would say could not be improved.

I've owned a marvelous SIG P210-6, a SIG P226 X-Five Competition, and a S&W 52-2 that probably couldn't be improved without a major  redesign.  (The P226 X-Five did need a lighter factory recoil spring assembly.) There were no after-market parts for those guns worth bothering with (except, perhaps a greater-than 5-round magazine for the 52-2)  I also had a marvelous nickle-plated Colt Python a few years back that didn't seem to need any improvements.  I've also had a Sphinx 2000 or two that couldn't be easily improved. 

My Sphinx SDP is pretty good, too, but I did go to a lighter (CZ) hammer spring.  That was a matter of personal taste. (I also got a CGW spring kit for it, but never bothered to install it after changing out the hammer spring.)

Quote from: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM
To say that CZ's substandard triggers keeps CGW and CZ Custom in business is illogical when you consider the HUGE amount of after market parts and accessories for the vast majority of guns on the market.

That's not exactly what I wrote. 

I wrote that the mediocre triggers ALONE probably keeps them in business.   My emphasis was on the "alone."   That includes the actual gunsmithing they do in the shop and the fire control assembly parts they've developed and sell to people who have learned of their products via internet searches and from forums like this.   One thing leads to another.   

Having a CZ can be almost like an addiction, and almost as costly.

I participate on a number of forums and I see both CZ Custom and CGW mentioned there often -- Probably as much as Gray Guys and some of the other "name" gunsmith shops.   

The other things that CZ-Custom and CGW provide -- design changes, enhancement, new-gun upgrades and more functional parts -- has hopefully helped move them both from marginally profitable firms to firms that are profitable enough to stick around (and continue innovating) for years to come. 

I suspect that David's 'striker' fix might never have seen the light of day if he was not already a recognized CZ expert in whom many folks have a great deal of confidence.  His shop's recognized competence and understanding of all things CZ was certainly why I got the striker kit for my P10c, and a spring kit for my Sphinx SDP (the one I've not yet installed.)  When I had questions about the SDP, I contacted David.
 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: besteff on January 29, 2019, 05:10:46 PM
I've read this whole thread and it kinda' confounds me all the descriptions of bad triggers. Now granted, I am new to CZ's, but I have been shooting for about 25 years. I was a big fan of 1911's for a number of years, but also had a nice collection of SA and DA revolvers that I shot regularly. I've had DA revolvers with tough trigger pulls, but most were quite manageable. As for CZ's, I've been searching around my area for several weeks and have handled the 75B and 75BD side-by-side, the Compact manual safety, the SP-01 safety and decocker (Tactical), the Shadow 2, the RAMI, and just this past weekend, the P-01 Omega.

Let me tell you that I'm a small guy with small hands, and I also have a disability that weakens my hands. I had no problem with any CZ trigger pull in DA, and in comparing the safety versions with decocker versions, I could barely tell any difference. Barely! And that's while concentrating on what I was doing and wanting to tell the difference. I'm sure in a defensive encounter I'd be pulling any trigger with ease.

Am I just lucky in finding all these local CZ's with great OTB triggers? I get the impression from a lot of comments that there are all these unmanageable, gritty, multi-lb DA triggers out there! Certainly hasn't been my experience. In fact, the only handgun with a crappy trigger I've experienced in how many years I can remember is the new FN 509. When I pulled it the first time I gave a shocked look at the sales guy. He looked at me in agreement. It felt like someone stuffed a wad of sand in it.

I think the CZ triggers are excellent in any form. Sure, the Shadow 2 trigger is outstanding, but I will confidently state that it wasn't dramatically better than any others I've played with.

As for the decocker on a handgun, I seriously doubt it was designed out of fear, as one commenter stated. I'm pretty sure it was developed to offer a legitimate safety option to those who prefer it. I've had Sigs, Walthers, and others that had a decocker. I don't recall it ever being the reason why I selected a firearm, but I did decide to purchase decocker versons of any CZs I acquire. Well, except my Shadow 2. But that's just because it's a Shadow 2.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 29, 2019, 06:38:55 PM
Some of us have been messing with CZ's and their triggers for a few decades.  Yes, I am somewhat a trigger snob - especially the DA pull.  Why?  Cuz if your first and most important shot is not even, stacks, and is over 9-10 LBS it is extremely hard to hit and that is not acceptable.  Does this happen on CZs?  Yup - just watched a vid of a guy with a P01 Omega measure the DA at well over 12 LBs. 

CAN CZ put out a fantastic trigger - YES - I own one.  I hand picked a P09 UGSR at a show and the thing is a dream.  As good as a Shadow.  Smooth DA, crisp SA and no grit OTB.  I may have checked 10 at the show - the rest varied from mediocre to terrible.  All gritty.  I also hand picked a P07 UG and it is DARN good - not quite as good as the P09, but very good.  The main problem is inconsistency. 

A steel safety gun is fairly easy to detail strip and with work, they can get like lubed glass.  May latest, a PreB 88 was a bit gritty, but is cleaning up pretty well after 500 rounds and 2 polishings. 

Only the P09 Urban Grey I hand picked is as good as my SIG SP 2022s.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM on January 29, 2019, 07:14:47 PM
I've read this whole thread and it kinda' confounds me all the descriptions of bad triggers. Now granted, I am new to CZ's, but I have been shooting for about 25 years. I was a big fan of 1911's for a number of years, but also had a nice collection of SA and DA revolvers that I shot regularly. I've had DA revolvers with tough trigger pulls, but most were quite manageable. As for CZ's, I've been searching around my area for several weeks and have handled the 75B and 75BD side-by-side, the Compact manual safety, the SP-01 safety and decocker (Tactical), the Shadow 2, the RAMI, and just this past weekend, the P-01 Omega.

Let me tell you that I'm a small guy with small hands, and I also have a disability that weakens my hands. I had no problem with any CZ trigger pull in DA, and in comparing the safety versions with decocker versions, I could barely tell any difference. Barely! And that's while concentrating on what I was doing and wanting to tell the difference. I'm sure in a defensive encounter I'd be pulling any trigger with ease.

Am I just lucky in finding all these local CZ's with great OTB triggers? I get the impression from a lot of comments that there are all these unmanageable, gritty, multi-lb DA triggers out there! Certainly hasn't been my experience. In fact, the only handgun with a crappy trigger I've experienced in how many years I can remember is the new FN 509. When I pulled it the first time I gave a shocked look at the sales guy. He looked at me in agreement. It felt like someone stuffed a wad of sand in it.

I think the CZ triggers are excellent in any form. Sure, the Shadow 2 trigger is outstanding, but I will confidently state that it wasn't dramatically better than any others I've played with.

As for the decocker on a handgun, I seriously doubt it was designed out of fear, as one commenter stated. I'm pretty sure it was developed to offer a legitimate safety option to those who prefer it. I've had Sigs, Walthers, and others that had a decocker. I don't recall it ever being the reason why I selected a firearm, but I did decide to purchase decocker versons of any CZs I acquire. Well, except my Shadow 2. But that's just because it's a Shadow 2.
I'm with you. I started out years ago with DA revolvers and some had very heavy pulls but with the proper dedication and practice even the heaviest DA pull can be mastered. Of course I'm one of the many who mods my guns but I've never handled a CZ that I would say was unshootable. They can certainly be made better but they are still good shooters as is and the metal framed CZ's are still about the best bang for the buck in the category.
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: briang2ad on January 29, 2019, 07:33:51 PM
No one is arguing that CZs have unuseable triggers. 

The whole idea of a good trigger pull is to be able to execute the pull without moving the gun at all.  There is no argument that it is easier to do this with a DA that is lighter and smoother (doesn't stack).  Can you train to keep a 18 LB trigger pull steady?  Maybe.  If it stacks and is 18 LBS it will take a long time, and a ton of ammo (You have to work through flinching also).  I had a P07 like this and while I could shoot it - it was annoying.  This makes training suck.  Not a good situation. 

Useable isn't necessarily good.  A smooth, refined trigger is FUN to train with.  This is a better situation. 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: Radom on January 30, 2019, 11:39:06 PM
Took a bit of a holiday from this thread after the personal attacks. 

If manually decocking a traditional firearm with an external hammer is so inherently dangerous, then how do people ever propose to handle a revolver?  The "two-handed" method doesn't work with a true SAA, or any other older weapon with the firing pin on the hammer.  I'd much rather discharge a round into the ground than have my off-hand impaled by a firing pin. 

Again, this entire discourse baffles me.  Manually decocking a pistol one-handed used to be a basic skill.  In 2019, I am treated like some sort of radical troglodyte. 
Title: Re: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: larryflew on January 31, 2019, 01:51:49 PM
As a 70 year old that has hunted since the age of 8 I have de-cocked a LOT of hammer firing pin revolvers and shotguns one handed. However I now do use a 2 handed method just because I can. On the other hand as a cocked and locked carry person with semis I rarely de-cock them. Still do with my revolvers and circuit judge.

No reason to be bashing anyone IMO even if something sounds kind of dangerous to the younger generation. One handed pointed in safe direction (like the ground) is very acceptable.
Title: Manual Decocking question for manual safety CZ 75
Post by: cntrydawwwg on January 31, 2019, 02:37:37 PM
I admit I use one handed, pointed at ground. But that’s just me, another revolver guy. The thing to remember tho, is that the revolvers have a nice big spur hammer like the Pre B’s. So I can really see where someone doesn’t want to use the one handed method on the smaller ring hammer of the current models.
   
    The biggest point I make is no matter how you do it.... practice,practice, practice and then practice some more
   JMHO