The Original CZ Forum

CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Scorpion EVO => Topic started by: z00mie on January 27, 2019, 12:33:52 PM

Title: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: z00mie on January 27, 2019, 12:33:52 PM
Well, The CZ scorpion pistol has piqued my interest since introduction and I have finally got my hands on one of my very own!  I have a number of other PCCs as well as short barreled rifles (which this will become) and wondered if folks consider this a range toy or a true platform worthy of professional use or staking your life on? Sig, HK, FN and B&T to name a few have track records that lend credibility via their name if not their actual designs for subguns/PDW's etc. The intent of my question is not to raise the dander of those diehard owners/aficionados but just to breech the subject and why one might have an opinion one way or the other? My initial feeling from a quality construction standpoint is probably not as it strikes me as a protype. The polymer construction is precise (for polymer) but I suspect won't stand up to department type use/abuse, the trigger pack pivot pins rotate in sheet metal and "may" not endure extended use either. Other assembly points are via roll pins pressed in plastic which will likely be fine now but questionable long term. The hammer face appears soft as it mine shows deformation only after hand cycling and dry firing. Overall I think its a fine, basic design but not likely ready for anything more than additional testing, development and exposure. Yes, some entities are apparently using it at a departmental level but that hasn't been very convincing for me. Honestly, Robski's testing has bolstered my trust considerably but still I seek continued testing with significantly higher round counts along with his type of unblinking objectivity, commentary and photo documentation. Yes Glocks are made of polymer and live quite long lives and AK's use sheet metal and survive also. I just can't shake my initial perception of prototype...(flame retardant gear-on)
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: ndmiller on January 27, 2019, 12:41:04 PM
Serious weapon as all CZ's tend to be.  The A1 variant is in use across the world.

 Afghanistan: Used by ANA Commandos.[3]
 Argentina: Tucum?n Provincial Police
 Bolivia: Law enforcement in Bolivia[citation needed]
 Czech Republic: Armed Forces, Police
 Dominican Republic
 Egypt: Law enforcement Units[4]
 Finland: Police of Finland[5]
 Honduras[6]
 Hungary: Hungarian Police,[7] Hungarian Defence Forces[8]
 Indonesia: Kostrad[9]
 Kenya: Kenya Police Service
 Malaysia: Royal Malaysia Police[10]
 Malta: Law enforcement in Malta
 Panama: Panamanian Presidential guards
 Paraguay[citation needed]
 Philippines: Philippine Coast Guard-Special Operations Group
 Serbia: Special Forces [11]
 Rwanda: Used by Rwandan Peacekeepers in The Central African Republic.[citation needed]
 Sudan: Law enforcement in Sudan
 Thailand: Royal Thai Police[12]
 Tunisia: Presidential guards
 Vietnam Vietnam: People's Public Security drug enforcement unit (Bureau C47), Army's Competition Rifle Team[13]
 Republic of Moldova: Police and Special Forces
 Republic of Poland: Special Forces
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: scribzilla on January 27, 2019, 01:19:00 PM
They are deployed in several military and police forces around the world. That coupled with range reports I've seen on forums and YouTube, I'd say it's ready for serious use.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: z00mie on January 27, 2019, 01:35:37 PM
John, as am I. It could very well have been asked elsewhere, but not by me, nor have I seen it asked (or answered) here. Me, I am a CZ fan. I have a BREN SBR, a Scorpion a CZ75B and 3 or 4 clones plus an 82 and a 97B. Oh, and a Kadet kit for my 75B! Curiously, the list of users provided is cut and paste from Wikipedia with references based on photos encountered throughout the interwebs. I see this as anecdotal at best (see Wikipedia ref. notes).
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: ndmiller on January 27, 2019, 01:48:34 PM
I think you missed my point.  The Full Auto original version was always and is still GTG in applications beyond Range Toy.  So in my mind there is no way the semi version is a Range Toy and not a serious weapon.  One may use it as a range toy, but clearly it wasn't designed as such.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: z00mie on January 27, 2019, 02:10:02 PM
So my question doesn't get mistaken for trolling, I own the CZ Scorpion Evo 3 S1 pistol (2018) and I do like it, but see a few things I consider prototype-ish (read, ripe for improvement): lowers that don't fit snugly, softish hammer face, sights attached to polymer rails, roll pins anchoring critical parts in plastic unreinforced areas. handguard secured to barrel via nut potentially causing stress on trunnion anchoring area which in-turn could effect accuracy as temps fluctuate, rare earth magnet for stock latch. Also the later guns don't seem to have the same proof marks the original euro guns did which makes me speculate whether these could be assembled here from foreign manufactured parts?
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: z00mie on January 27, 2019, 02:41:02 PM
nd miller, I contend the select fire functionality lends no credibility (to me) for any firearm's suitability for duty or leisure use. I do suspect this weapon was a clean sheet design that was conceived from the outset for the US market's desire for a rest of world, purpose built euro sub-gun (think new MP5 without the "We are HK and we hate you" part) for the average non-mil/LEO user. Basically, build a solid following and sell gun-like souvenirs to us lowly citizens. I always chuckle when manufacturers (not CZ) show footage of a demo gun blasting away in automatic fire or in bursts when the reality is we don't get the racing suspension or performance engine like the competition model, only the one with the cheesy (and expensive) racing stripes...
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: z00mie on January 27, 2019, 02:52:07 PM
Not at all John A! I just don't want this to drift off point or be perceived as snarky or nasty because of my poor writing ability.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: billythefish on January 27, 2019, 04:36:52 PM
wondered if folks consider this a range toy or a true platform worthy of professional use or staking your life on?

Not quite sure if this is a question worth asking. If you are asking for home defense would I use this? Certainly. If you are asking if I would take this weapon on operations where I am likely to be engaging threats >200m away...no.

It is a tool, designed to go bang when you pull the trigger without any crazy mechanical bleep happening. There are plenty of people out there with 10,000 rounds+ through these without any issues, then there are people who fire 1 mag off and encounter all sorts of issues. This is the case of pretty much every weapon manufactured ever.

The polymer construction is precise (for polymer) but I suspect won't stand up to department type use/abuse, the trigger pack pivot pins rotate in sheet metal and "may" not endure extended use either.


Not to sure what you think 'departments' are doing with their weapons, but when was the last time you seen any department emptying magazine after magazine regularly on tasks or in training? There are only very specific departments that will put their weapons to regular use and they can afford to have much better performing (and expensive) SMG weapons for this task.

In summary- this is a jack of all trades weapon for me personally- home defense, hiking, range toy etc. Would I carry it on operations over choices such as proven platforms such as mp5s, mp7s etc? Nope. That in no way makes the weapon bad/unreliable/unsuitable....I just wouldn't want to be the test case for such a new weapon.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: jnichols2 on January 27, 2019, 05:10:55 PM
I see the EVO as having a dual personality.

As a range toy, it's incredible fun.  For home defense, it's a deadly serious weapon -- out to about 75 yards.
For my house and neighborhood, that's about the maximum I would need.

billythe fish says he wouldn't want to engage at 200 m.  For anything over 75 yards, I would only use it to fight my way to my AR-15.
But, that would be a very different situation than protecting my house.

Did I mention how much fun it is ?
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: GearFondler on January 27, 2019, 06:40:56 PM
If the forthcoming Pmags are up to their usual standards, then yeah, the Scorpion is a serious tool for serious work.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Montesf1030 on January 27, 2019, 06:46:53 PM
I see the EVO as having a dual personality.

As a range toy, it's incredible fun.  For home defense, it's a deadly serious weapon -- out to about 75 yards.
For my house and neighborhood, that's about the maximum I would need.

billythe fish says he wouldn't want to engage at 200 m.  For anything over 75 yards, I would only use it to fight my way to my AR-15.
But, that would be a very different situation than protecting my house.

Did I mention how much fun it is ?
Agree(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190127/0589a43f97c4d0306eb411e5e5e4ec95.jpg)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: sboone on January 27, 2019, 08:59:24 PM
1. It's a PCC, as a general rule of thumb, a PCC is not typically considered for or designed as a "front line" gun, that is specifically almost always rifle territory, those are built for use and abuse beyond reasonable expectations.  PCC/PDW style guns are meant to supplement larger caliber small arms,  reliable and generally durable, a little bang n bump here and there, not necessarily a 4 story drop.

That being said, as far as PDW goes the scorpion has been routinely pushed past some impressive roundcounts, hitting 5k, 10k, and 15k on a ton of guns without hiccup.  My personal gun is over 2k for sure mostly suppressed with 124 grain standard and +p stuff.  It is capable of easy hits at 150 yds, but adequate energy on target is 100 and less.  I'll grab mine when its needed without hesitation for a light handy low recoil gun to sling massive amounts of lead downrange a stones throw away
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: brisix on January 27, 2019, 10:47:56 PM
I use my Scorpion SBR for USPSA PCC and have around 30k rounds through it since 2017.  I have the CZ Custom trigger pack with trigger job done by their gunsmiths.  The only failures/breakages have been with the Gen 2 OEM mags.  I now use the Manitcore Arms mags with no issues.  I will be trying the Magpul Pmags out once they show up for sale.

I rarely clean the rifle.  It gets a cleaning maybe every 10k-15k rounds.  I lightly oil after cleaning and do not apply oil until its time to clean again.  I did wait to clean the extractor until 30k rounds just to see what would happen.  It was filled with dry gunk but never caused a malfunction. 

The CZ Law Enforcement rep has a machine gun Scorpion that I had the chance to shoot.   He said that rifle has 100k rounds with all OEM parts and has not had a problem.

IMHO these rifles are tanks.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: billythefish on January 27, 2019, 11:59:42 PM
I see the EVO as having a dual personality.

As a range toy, it's incredible fun.  For home defense, it's a deadly serious weapon -- out to about 75 yards.
For my house and neighborhood, that's about the maximum I would need.

billythe fish says he wouldn't want to engage at 200 m.  For anything over 75 yards, I would only use it to fight my way to my AR-15.
But, that would be a very different situation than protecting my house.

Did I mention how much fun it is ?

I was mentioning 200m in my post purely to make a point to the other poster, I wouldn't use this weapon to engage threats over 50m if I was using it for work...there are much better tools for that job
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Mr.E.G. on January 29, 2019, 12:07:44 AM
In my judgment, it's all about "horses for courses." The gun is perfectly suitable for some circumstances and wholly inadequate for others. Whether it's a serious weapon or not depends on the circumstances that you'll use it in.

For instance, as a home defense gun, it's going to be very effective. You can get numerous types of ammo that will tear up an intruder without over-penetrating, which is a real concern for a home defense scenario. Likewise, if you're a motorcycle cop and therefore must have a compact weapon to store in a small space, you'd rather have a Scorpion SBR than only your duty pistol. But if you're on the SWAT team and you're serving no-knock warrants, you'd be better off with a 300BLK 10" barrel AR15. Alternatively, if you were on a SWAT team serving no-knock warrants and you're only allowed to use an AR with mil-spec 5.56, then maybe you'd be better off with the Scorpion (because SS109 and M855 are a joke when shooting someone up close, especially if you couple it with a short barrel). If you're an infantryman who might engage someone at 300 yards, no way you'd want a Scorpion.

I'm sure this will draw some ire, but if they made the Scorpion in 10mm, it would be a lot more versatile and serve more roles.

Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: jmstallard on January 29, 2019, 10:41:06 AM
For my house and neighborhood, [75 yards is] about the maximum I would need.

Defensive shooting at 75 yards?! Oy!
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Hemiscorpius lepturus on January 29, 2019, 05:37:37 PM
My lower fits so tight I have to wrap my arm around the gun and squeeze to get the pin back in, but yes there are others that rattle around, and I dont consider that a fault of the gun, but of the manufacture of the gun. I have 2 lowers, the original welded, and the free replacement, they are both tight.

Mags not dropping free is not a problem for me, as mine do with 30s to the mag with some fine sandpaper (If I so desire), and the euro code of arms seems to be NOT having mags drop free.

Soft hammers may seem like a problem, but it is very intentional. It means the hammer is not brittle, so when it hits the pin and then impacts the bolt, it will not shatter or crack.

Polymer? It is lightweight, easier and cheaper to mold than metal is machine, and has several properties superior to metal, and is very rigid. It is fiber reinforced, and very strong. Where there are pins anchored, they are of the right size and quantity to not apply to much stress.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: 3guneric on January 31, 2019, 10:21:23 AM
I like that Rob Ski is putting the Scorp through the mill!  Only time will truly tell if the little poly Scorp can hang tough.  So far it/mine is holding up well. 

* I am a dedicated metal gun guy and have stayed away (except the Scorp)  from the plastic craze.   
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Old454 on February 01, 2019, 06:21:09 PM
It's a weapon, and as such it's very serious.

Treat it as a serious weapon AND have fun with it.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Phaedrus/69 on February 03, 2019, 12:18:47 AM
I have more confidence in the 5.56 round than the 9mm, but I do keep the Scorpion set up for HD duty.  It's also handy to take camping; with the brace it's as shootable as a true rifle but folded the thing is compact enough to fit in my smallest day pack.  Most of the time I would likely grab the 805 but I wouldn't feel undergunned with the Scorpion, either.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Mr.E.G. on February 03, 2019, 12:43:40 PM
Not disagreeing, just adding my own two cents, but you should feel more confident with 5.56 --IF-- it's the right kind of 5.56 ammo for the intended use. If you have M855 and you're using it as you kick in the door of a crackhouse and shoot some guy 20 feet away, you'd be better off with the Scorpion. If you're shooting that M855 out of a 10" barrel, you're doubly screwed. But if you've got Black Hills 77 grain, then you'd be better off with that than 9mm under practically any set of circumstances.

Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: z00mie on February 03, 2019, 03:55:37 PM
I use my Scorpion SBR for USPSA PCC and have around 30k rounds through it since 2017.  I have the CZ Custom trigger pack with trigger job done by their gunsmiths.  The only failures/breakages have been with the Gen 2 OEM mags.  I now use the Manitcore Arms mags with no issues.  I will be trying the Magpul Pmags out once they show up for sale.

I rarely clean the rifle.  It gets a cleaning maybe every 10k-15k rounds.  I lightly oil after cleaning and do not apply oil until its time to clean again.  I did wait to clean the extractor until 30k rounds just to see what would happen.  It was filled with dry gunk but never caused a malfunction. 

The CZ Law Enforcement rep has a machine gun Scorpion that I had the chance to shoot.   He said that rifle has 100k rounds with all OEM parts and has not had a problem.

IMHO these rifles are tanks.
Brisix, thanks for the input! Honestly, its the type of feedback I hoped I would receive (either/both positive or negative). I'd also really love to hear from the You-tuber SOT (with the Scorpion A1 Dealer Sample) and his experience...
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Phaedrus/69 on February 03, 2019, 07:23:00 PM
Not disagreeing, just adding my own two cents, but you should feel more confident with 5.56 --IF-- it's the right kind of 5.56 ammo for the intended use. If you have M855 and you're using it as you kick in the door of a crackhouse and shoot some guy 20 feet away, you'd be better off with the Scorpion. If you're shooting that M855 out of a 10" barrel, you're doubly screwed. But if you've got Black Hills 77 grain, then you'd be better off with that than 9mm under practically any set of circumstances.

The ammo I keep for potential HD use in my Bren is 77gr Black Hills and some 70gr Hornady GMX, plus a bit of Hornady 55gr TAP that I normally keep in my AR.  Definitely if I couldn't avoid a fight I'd rather have 30 rounds of GMX than 30 rounds of 147gr 9mm HST +P.  But I'd be grateful for the latter if it came to that.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Mr.E.G. on February 03, 2019, 07:32:56 PM
Agreed. Any "fancy" 5.56 or .223 is probably good for close shooting, but much of the milspec stuff will do little more than frustrate a badguy (and your interior wall, and your exterior wall, and your neighbor's wall, and his TV).
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Silent service on February 04, 2019, 09:03:47 AM
Agreed. Any "fancy" 5.56 or .223 is probably good for close shooting, but much of the milspec stuff will do little more than frustrate a badguy (and your interior wall, and your exterior wall, and your neighbor's wall, and his TV).

?And his TV?. Lol. That?s where I?d take issue too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Cognard on February 06, 2019, 06:37:12 AM
Deffinitely a serious weapon with a incredibly simple design .
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: adrian on February 08, 2019, 12:10:01 PM
     Hiya roomie and thx for starting the thread. I'd seen some cz ads with the SWAT teams carrying them and wanting to round out my cz collection, tho preferring steel and alloy to plastic and polymer. Its a round easier to afford to practice with. With my shooting style,center axis,I knew I wasn't going to make it a SBR,but needed to go with a vert grip,then learned I'd have to apply with ATF and tax stamp it to make that legal. After a few hundred rounds I hoped I'd be happier with the trigger, that led to Stu doing the trigger package which was a noticeable improvement. Not sure why I added the compensator, and bought some larger capacity mags. The thought to run hollow points never crossed my mind,so I guess the whole exercise was I wanted a range toy. With operators chiming in on preferences for home defense. Bedside Benilli 14"Entry,with tube extender,vert grip,light on rail,and OObuckshot, hollow points in po-2 omega,and backup cz 83. All fine options, unless ones home invaders get the drop on ya. Tough being ready if your in the shower,loo,or get that tap on your shoulder at 3am. Cheers.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: HamHands on February 09, 2019, 09:44:16 PM
I'm serious about protecting my family, myself, and our home. My go to home defense gun(s) have recently been 10.5" AR's I've built, tested, and spent a LOT of trigger time behind and running drills at farm shoot's that I regularly sponsor for over the last 25 years. The AR Platform is a serious gun that can be relied upon. I've been into the Scorpion for a minute or three now putting mine thru it's paces as well as I do all firearms I use. It's a very good design as it's rugged, stupid simple, and I've yet to have a malfunction. In fact... our Scorpion has just superseded my beloved aforementioned 10.5" AR's as the castle's go to firearms, (one staged downstairs and one upstairs concealed in hide-away-furniture); as the Scorpion is 100% a serious use weapon that I trust the lives of myself, my girls, our pooches, and our home without a second thought. CZ hit it out of the park with this design. I think we'll continue to see more and more agencies adopt this platform in their go to rotation more and more as it is becoming more and more popular ever so; it has quite an impressive list of end users as is. I bet our lives on it for sure. As a guy that has been an attempted victim of a home invasion and 2 street robberies (I'm in Commercial Real Estate), and a husband and father I take my familie's safety very serious and I have zero reservations as to the seriousness and effectiveness of my Scorpion. Take that for what it's worth...
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: nitesite on February 15, 2019, 05:13:26 PM
I belong to several other firearm forums and have seen this post, or one just about like it a couple of times now. 

Shoot it a while and make sure it is reliable, and accurate.  Those types of questions can only be answered with lots of time behind the trigger.

Personally, I'm not hesitant to grab mine.

I am trying to get authorization from my department to keep mine in my patrol vehicle.  I trust the EVO 3 Scorpion as a law enforcement firearm for use in close quarters.  We don't slam our firearms against rocks very often.
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: nitesite on February 15, 2019, 05:52:40 PM
I hope the Sheriff approves for you to use it.

Hi John.  :)
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Phaedrus/69 on February 18, 2019, 11:33:03 PM
Here's the way I have mine setup.  I recently got a Sig Romeo 5 sight which is on top.  I've got a Magpul AFG, an SB Tactical brace and a Surefire 6P host with a Malkoff M61 dropin.  It's set up with a tape switch secured in a Manta rail switch mount.  It's hard to see but since mine is an old Scorpion I needed a thread adapter which I added.  The last thing I'm waiting on is a KAC flash can which has been in the mail for two weeks now. :o  The magazine is from Manticore, loaded up with 147gr +P Federal HST.  Again, the Bren 805 is also set up for HD/zombie duty but I wouldn't hesitate to grab the Scorpion if there's a bump in the night.

(https://i.imgur.com/FIe4T44.jpg?1)


(https://i.imgur.com/I4MNz6i.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Serious Weapon or Range Toy?
Post by: Issues on February 21, 2019, 11:31:39 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OFfPQcqbVE&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OFfPQcqbVE&feature=youtu.be)